Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::Official Uncommonly Dense Discussion Thread

Posted: April 03 2007,20:08

Quote (2ndclass @ April 04 2007,02:37)

DaveScot pulls out his chalkboard and presumes to lecture Pixie, who, unlike DaveScot, knows what he's talking about.

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In general 2LoT applies to gradients of all kinds.

Wrong.

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It also applies to information gradients.

In general, wrong.

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Intelligent processes can create information gradients. For instance - absent intelligence the library of congress, a highly ordered set of information, would not exist with only energy from the sun input into the system and no intelligent agency directing how that energy is utilized to decrease entropy.

So, according to Dave, the 2LoT applies to information, but intelligent agents can decrease information entropy, thus violating the 2LoT. Dave has been making a fool of himself for over a year with this assertion, but he seems unconcerned.

Bwhwhwhwhwhwhwhhwhwwwhahahahahahahhahahaha

Shiva H Krishnu.

Breath taking inanity at its very best.

That boy is danger to his own mind.

Put out an APB for old man seen driving an brand new unused brain backwards down a blind alley in an intellectual slum.

That stupidity doesn't deserve an answer.

MUSHROOMS DISPROVE DARWIN. ~~BLACK GIRLS~~ INUITS ARE JUST THE RIGHT SIZE FOR MY SMALL DICK BUT THE WRONG COLOR AND GREEN TEA CURED MY ITCHY SLOT HOMOS - I LAFFSOHARDMYBRAINFALLOUT-dt

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Zachriel

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Joined: Sep. 2006

Posted: April 03 2007,20:20

Eric Anderson

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One of Darwin’s conundrums is that the variations that are the engine of evolution must, by definition, be significant enough to actually lead to differential reproduction and an advantage for their possessor, while at the same time they must be so small as to be realistically possible (or more importantly to the theory, they must be small enough to be believable).

Niels Bohr and Albert Einsten were taking a walk in the woods, vigorously debating the philosophical underpinnings of quantum theory, when a gigantic bear suddenly burst out of the underbrush and raced toward them. Niels immediately whipped out his fine running shoes and began lacing them up.

Einstein, furrowing his brow at Bohr, said: "Niels, there's no way you can outrun that bear."

"That's true," Bohr calmly replied, "but I don't need to outrun the bear. I only need to outrun you."

Eric, it's important to realize that just because you don't understand or can't imagine how a small difference can be critical in the reproductive success of an organism doesn't place a similar limitation on nature.

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stevestory

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Posted: April 03 2007,20:35

Quote

Howdy-

As the co-author of the very fantastic and reasonably-priced book in question, I can assure you all that Flock of Dodos actually contains a disappointingly meager amount of sexual content, and that in fact sex is only mentioned twice - once with regards to the sexual practices of bonobo chimpanzees, which is brought up in the course of a larger point regarding the concept of the Logos, and then again when it's mentioned in passing that Victorian England was a "sexless time and place." So I'm actually pretty astonished to see that Dembski has criticized me for being obsessed with sex based on the fact that sex is mentioned twice in my 40,000-word book, although I'm considerably less astonished to see that Dembski himself deploys a jibe regarding my sexual development in the course of his two-paragraph post, apparently without seeing any irony in this.

Also, I dig your blog. Keep it real, gentlemen.

Posted by: Barrett Brown | April 3, 2007 07:39 PM

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....ntsArea

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Posted: April 03 2007,20:53

Quote (steve_h @ April 03 2007,17:09)

Leave the drinking to people like me and SteveStory who become more attractive and sophisticated after a few percents.

Yeah, that coca-cola at work really wakes the snakes in my hair. Invitation to a stoning.

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In a world run by Rushdoony followers, sots would escape capital punishment--which would make them happy exceptions indeed. Those who would face execution include not only gays but a very long list of others: blasphemers, heretics, apostate Christians, people who cursed or struck their parents, females guilty of "unchastity before marriage," "incorrigible" juvenile delinquents, adulterers, and (probably) telephone psychics. And that's to say nothing of murderers and those guilty of raping married women or "betrothed virgins." Adulterers, among others, might meet their doom by being publicly stoned

How fortunate it is indeed that I have not been drinking.

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Prominent California philanthropist Howard F. Ahmanson Jr., who has given Rushdoony's operations more than $700,000 over the years, may also be loosening his ties. According to the June 30, 1996, Orange County Register, Ahmanson has departed the Chalcedon board and says he "does not embrace all of Rushdoony's teachings." An heir of the Home Savings bank fortune, Ahmanson has also been an important donor to numerous other groups, including the Claremont Institute, the Seattle-based Discovery Institute

Drink to me only with thine eyes, Bill.

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Ethics Daily has published a revealing report that "Seminary Speaker Advocates Christian Rule." Shelby sharpe, general counsel for the Southern Baptists of Texas, spoke to a full house in a Southwestern Seminary chapel service on September 5th and, in effect, advocated that Christians takeover the government to influence the culture.

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A recent speaker at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary said Christians have a responsibility not just to preach the kingdom of God, but to impose Christian principles upon culture. That was on the heels of the president of another Southern Baptist seminary saying on a radio program that fears by liberals and moderates that fundamentalist Christians want to establish a "theocracy" are overblown. ... "That's a command to us," he continued. "We are to have this culture live in obedience to every command of God. You say, 'Now wait a minute. That's not lawful. The Supreme Court of the United States says you can't do that.'

"So? So what? When did they get above God?"

... Bruce Prescott of Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists, a longtime observer of the Religious Right, called Sharpe's chapel address "the most unambiguous advocacy for Christian Reconstructionism that I have ever heard from the pulpit of a Southern Baptist institution."

"The fact that Shelby Sharpe works as general counsel for Southern Baptists of Texas should give some indication of the intentionality with which Southern Baptist political organizing across the country has the creation of a fundamentalist-Christian theocracy as its goal," Prescott said.

Link to the video. No it's not our three D's at UD, so maybe this is OT, but I'm awake; I'm paying attention to this stuff. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think I'm being hysterical.

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Southwestern Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas is the largest seminary in the world. It has trained more Christian ministers and missionaries than any other institution in history.

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

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"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

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"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank

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Posted: April 03 2007,21:16

Quote (Kristine @ April 03 2007,20:53)

No it's not our three D's at UD, so maybe this is OT, but I'm awake; I'm paying attention to this stuff. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think I'm being hysterical.

Read the Wedge Document, and you'll see that it's not OT, and you are not being hysterical at all. ID is permeated, through and through, with a barely-disguised Reconstructionist-based agenda. We are all supremely fortunate that they are such incompetent boobs that they couldn't organize their way out of a wet paper bag.

Ahmanson, BTW, not only sits on the DI's Board of Directors, but provides, by some estimates, about one-third of the yearly budget for the Center for (the Renewal of) Science and Culture, all by himself. He is one scary dude.

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Dr.GH

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Posted: April 03 2007,21:55

Quote (Zachriel @ April 03 2007,20:20)

Quote

Niels Bohr and Albert Einsten were taking a walk in the woods, vigorously debating the philosophical underpinnings of quantum theory, when a gigantic bear suddenly burst out of the underbrush and raced toward them. Niels immediately whipped out his fine running shoes and began lacing them up.

Einstein, furrowing his brow at Bohr, said: "Niels, there's no way you can outrun that bear."

"That's true," Bohr calmly replied, "but I don't need to outrun the bear. I only need to outrun you."

That's a new one for me and a dang gudin. Thanks!

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Posted: April 04 2007,00:10

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ April 03 2007,20:16)

Quote (Kristine @ April 03 2007,20:53)

No it's not our three D's at UD, so maybe this is OT, but I'm awake; I'm paying attention to this stuff. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think I'm being hysterical.

Read the Wedge Document, and you'll see that it's not OT, and you are not being hysterical at all. ID is permeated, through and through, with a barely-disguised Reconstructionist-based agenda. We are all supremely fortunate that they are such incompetent boobs that they couldn't organize their way out of a wet paper bag.

Ahmanson, BTW, not only sits on the DI's Board of Directors, but provides, by some estimates, about one-third of the yearly budget for the Center for (the Renewal of) Science and Culture, all by himself. He is one scary dude.

*Shimmies out of view of Ahmanson* Yes! Thank you! This chick ain't chicken little.

It's so ironic that earlier k.e. took me to task for appearing too soft on our Bill the fundertaker.

Quote (k.e @ April 01 2007,21:23)

Who is trying to have their blind spot beyond their horizon and their rosy world view too?

Moi?

Quote (k.e @ April 01 2007,21:23)

Romanticize away with 'Billy the Kreationist Kid' a Psalm Slinger of the Old East as he rides into town on the back of his flock of sheep with his devil may care disregard of the law (in particular the constitution).

How does a man ride a flock of sheep when he is wearing spandex? You forgot that part.

Quote (k.e @ April 01 2007,21:23)

You could try seeing if he can be 'converted' to play on the other team ...I suppose... but it would take more than a shimmy in a feather boa.

I don't use feather boas. They shed. And who do you think I am anyway, Quetzecotl? Not that I mind.

"We are the arsonists." So, are you saying that I, instead of cursing the fartness, should light a match? I'll try.

Quote (k.e @ April 01 2007,21:23)

In which case I say ...bring me the head of Bill the Baptist.

Revenge is mine. He and I have an anniversary even if he can't remember.

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

oldmanintheskydidntdoit

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Joined: July 2006

Posted: April 04 2007,03:15

People are defending Ann Coluter in the comments at UD!

Tribune7

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That was crude. OTOH, that wasn’t in any of her books....She called a couple of political types whores? Mercy, can my ears stand it.

(link deleted, too long and i'm at work!)

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When Ann Coulter appears crude it’s usually because she’s quoting someone she’s criticizing.

So, Like when Darwin appears racist......
Just unbelievable.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

Chris Hyland

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Posted: April 04 2007,05:13

Quote

DaveScot blogs, Another Icon of Evolution Bites the Dust - Antibiotic Resistance. And I thought IDers had no problem with microevolution. In any case, to support his assertion, DaveScot cites Alekshun & Levy.

The paper actually lists a few dozen cases where mutations cause resistance. Not only that it points out that bacteria are constantly responding to animicrobial agents in the soil, and so may be already immune to antibiotics that have a similar actions. Plus when resistance is transfered from another bacteria it appears to be in the form of new alleles of existing genes, not exactly unexplained by evolution.

Telic Thoughts vs UD

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Well, it's happened again. Dave Scot had a post on the Supreme Court ruling that the EPA has the authority to regulate greenhouse gas emissions. Of course, this is seen as a tragedy of near cataclysmic proportions by Dave. Must be the taxoplasma taking effect. So I tried posting a comment of my own. It never showed up. This is about the fourth time for me. I should have made a copy of it.

My favorite comment is this by Doug:

Quote

DaveScot doesn't delete all posts that are in disagreeing with his views.
To some extent I like the atmosphere at UD over TT.

Many times the conversations here just go on and on and on and on. Insults get tossed back and forth and comments seem to side-track the actual article.

If that isn't a new benchmark for the pot caling the kettle black I don't know what is.

Zachriel

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Joined: Sep. 2006

Posted: April 04 2007,07:04

dopderbeck

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But PT purports to be something “objective” and “scientific,” which it clearly is not.

The Panda's Thumb is a virtual pub.

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The Panda's Thumb is the virtual pub of the University of Ediacara. The patrons gather to discuss evolutionary theory, critique the claims of the anti evolution movement, defend the integrity of both science and science education, and share good conversation.

After a few drinks, Steve Steve can be very objective. (Note the thumb.)

It's ironic that the premier blog on Intelligent Design sets its standards by comparison to a pub. If they really have a case to make, they should make it before their peers in recognized scientific journals.

Add mathematicians to the list of scholars involved in the conspiracy to suppress the truth of Intelligent Design, along with geologists, physicists, cosmologists, biologists, geneticists, paleontologists, astronomers, biochemists, microbiologists, phylogenists, systematists, ecologists, climatologists, dendronologists, oceanographers, computational biologists, anatomists, biophysicists, molecular biologists, morphologists, botanists, paleobotanists, physiologists, the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the National Center for Science Education, every major scientific journal, and [gasp] even Stephen Hawking; are wrong (or lying), about the data which constitutes cores of their lifelong specialties.

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franky172

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Posted: April 04 2007,07:51

Quote (Zachriel @ April 03 2007,19:58)

DaveScot blogs, Another Icon of Evolution Bites the Dust - Antibiotic Resistance. And I thought IDers had no problem with microevolution. In any case, to support his assertion, DaveScot cites Alekshun & Levy. This Alekshun & Levy:

Quote (Alekshun @ Levy)

clinical improvements and widespread use and misuse of antibiotics have pushed evolution, allowing normally non-pathogenic strains to become infectious disease threats to human health.

These are the quotes from Alekshun & Levy's latest journal article that DaveScot indicated were pertinent.

Quote (Alekshun @ Levy)

Although classically attributed to chromosomal mutations, resistance is most commonly associated with extrachromosomal elements acquired from other bacteria in the environment

Most, not all. The classic Lederberg lab experiment, repeated daily in universities around the world, starts with clonal bacteria, and demonstrates that occasional genetic mutations result in antibiotic resistance, and that such mutations occur whether the bacteria are exposed to antibiotics or not. That is, the mutations are random with respect to the environment. It's also known that bacteria exchange genes through lateral transfer. The success of these bacteria is predictably dependent on environmental selection.

Quote (Alekshun @ Levy)

The means that microbes use to evade antibiotics certainly predate and outnumber the therapeutic interventions themselves.

That's expected as most antibiotics are naturally occurring products, often found in moulds. None of this changes the fact that evolution is at work, as Alekshun & Levy point out, and that bacterial evolution is of critical importance to modern medicine.

DaveScot

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Experiments were purported to have “proven” that antibiotic resistance evolves de novo. Talkorigins makes this claim in multiple places. Therein lies the dead icon.

Antibiotic resistance can be achieved by horizontal acquisition of resistance genes, by recombination, or by even a single nucleotide substitution.

Never mind the long list of examples of beneficial mutations observed in cloned lines that can be found here:

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html

Is this a problem for ID, Dave?

franky172

Posts: 160
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Posted: April 04 2007,07:55

Dave writes:

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Experiments were purported to have “proven” that antibiotic resistance evolves de novo. Talkorigins makes this claim in multiple places. Therein lies the dead icon.

Great_ape points out that antibiotic resistance is generated de novo all the time.

Dave moves the goal posts:

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Actually I do agree that de novo mutations can arise to give bacteria resistance to antibiotics.

Stunning.

k.e

Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

Posted: April 04 2007,09:48

Kristine riffs

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Bill the fundertaker.

*bows*

He hasn't buried mine <snicker>

Then Kristine brings Dembski into sharper focus

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How does a man ride a flock of sheep when he is wearing spandex? You forgot that part

With his cheeks pinched? (no Wide Mouth Frogs around these parts)

Yep ....you can't keep a good Aztec down....or SHOULD THAT BE you can't keep a good elastic clown...er suspended.

Kristine doesn't boa.

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I don't use feather boas. They shed. And who do you think I am anyway, Quetzalcoatl? Not that I mind.

Maybe I was thinking of DT's shop for overweight trannies...... was it pink and fluffy and matched 9 inch heels in a wide size 49?

Kristine oxidates

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"We are the arsonists." So, are you saying that I, instead of cursing the fartness, should light a match? I'll try.

There is an awful lot of arse'n about; mostly from you and RTH...I take no responsibility...... I like the sound of the bells on the big red trucks.....and the explosions BWhahahahahahahahaha ....oops I hope no one was listening to that.

Kristine reminds

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Revenge is mine. He and I have an anniversary even if he can't remember.

Urban archaeologists will in the future dig up fossilized ID bloggers and like present day Egyptologists wonder what their ancient religion was all about. Symbols such as IC, EF will be seen as quaint talismans that speak a code to followers of the Ra cult to get around the sacred laws of the kingdom which bars the teaching of the son of Ra's cult in the Pharaohs schools.

Like ancient Egyptians they will be shown to be overly concerned with the afterlife and indulge their whole economy in building giant monuments to unscientific ideas which eventually prove useless.

Somehow I think the pyramids will remain tourist attractions and no one will remember ID .....in its present form anyway.

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

phonon

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Posted: April 04 2007,09:51

Quote (Louis @ April 03 2007,11:02)

Phonon,

Yeah, good angle!

"Dear Boss,

Please pay for me to go to the ACS conference in New Orleans next year for two reasons:

1) I want to see some excellent chemistry (see refs X, Y and Z)

2) I wish to inject much needed cash into that wonderful city's economy after the tragedy of Hurricane Katrina. Mainly around the Bourbon street area.

Thanks"

I can see that going down VERY well. Scientific AND moral! Who'd-a-thunk it?

Louis

He he. Yeah, I'm sure charity is the first thing on my boss's mind!

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With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

phonon

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Posted: April 04 2007,09:57

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ April 03 2007,13:02)

Quote (Louis @ April 03 2007,11:02)

Phonon,

Yeah, good angle!

"Dear Boss,

Please pay for me to go to the ACS conference in New Orleans next year for two reasons:

1) I want to see some excellent chemistry (see refs X, Y and Z)

2) I wish to inject much needed cash into that wonderful city's economy after the tragedy of Hurricane Katrina. Mainly around the Bourbon street area.

Thanks"

I can see that going down VERY well. Scientific AND moral! Who'd-a-thunk it?

Louis

I highly recommend Gordon Biersch down by Harrah's casino. There was a fabulous chemistry seminar given there recently. See pages 3 and 4 of http://chemistry.lsu.edu/acsbr/newsletters/2007/ACS_news_07Mar.pdf for info on the speaker.

I usually miss the local chapter meetings, but hey, if the topic is making beer, well now...

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With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

Louis

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Posted: April 04 2007,11:19

Tracy H,

Nice looking talk. I hope (speaking as a natural products chemist) it touched on the ring contraction isomerism of humulones in the boiling wort to produce iso-humulones (part of the important bitter flavours in beer) and that "light struck" beer flavours result from the photolytic Norrish type 1 cleavage (of interest to a quantum chemist such as yourself no doubt) of iso-humuones to produce dehydro humulinic acid and (usually) 3-methylbut-2-ene-1-thiol.

Sorry my biases are showing. During my PhD I was trying to synthesise a natural product that contains a cyclopentanone and biosyntheses of cyclopentanoid natural products were obviously part of my broader research effort. The ring contraction from phenolic humulones to cyclopentanoid iso-humulones was one of my favourite biological mechanisms for producing cyclopentanoid molecules. Not that I used it with any success (I went a different route) but still an intellectually interesting one for me.

Louis

P.S. Added in edit: Ah I see on reading your flyer you DID discuss these things. Mmmmmm ring-contraction-a-licious!

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Bye.

Reciprocating Bill

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Posted: April 04 2007,11:50

Quote (k.e @ April 03 2007,20:08)

Breath taking inanity at its very best.

That boy is danger to his own mind.

Put out an APB for old man seen driving an brand new unused brain backwards down a blind alley in an intellectual slum.

I've been working on a Breathtaking Inanalyzer (similar to a breathalyzer) to assist our efforts to protect the public.

I've got the basic mechanism and associated software worked out, but problems remain, as it is easily damaged by hot air and/or methane, paricularly in combination. Plus it crashes in response to Uncommonly Denyse's puzzlers.

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

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Posted: April 04 2007,12:25

O'Leary plays dumb. (I thought maybe she's come off as smarter when she does this, but no.) Moi? A fundamentalist?

Oui, vous, une fundamentaliste, cherie. There are fundamentalist Catholics, my dear. There are anti-Semitic Catholics, too.

I read the referenced article last night on the train.

Oh, and Denyse: it seems that intelligent design is not very popular among Jews. What say you now? Gee, the whole flipping world doesn't act like your catechism says it should! Maybe the world isn't fallen - maybe the big shimmy harpy has you in her talons. Up, up, and away! Struggle a little, huh?

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

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"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

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Posted: April 04 2007,12:25

Quote (franky172 @ April 04 2007,07:55)

Dave writes:

Quote

Experiments were purported to have “proven” that antibiotic resistance evolves de novo. Talkorigins makes this claim in multiple places. Therein lies the dead icon.

Great_ape points out that antibiotic resistance is generated de novo all the time.

Dave moves the goal posts:

Quote

Actually I do agree that de novo mutations can arise to give bacteria resistance to antibiotics.

Stunning.

ALRIGHT SHUT UP AND LISTEN CAUSE I'M TALKING. WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN HEAR IS A MIRACLE. DAVESCOTSPRINGERSPANIEL BRAUGHT SOMETHING BACK FROM THE DEAD. RESSURECTED. WHERE HAVE WE SEEN THAT BEFORE? AND WHAT INFERENCES CAN WE MAKE. I THINK YOU'LL FINDS TEH DESGIGNERS TEXTBOOK HAS A LOT TO SAY IN TEH SECOND PART ABOUT THIS (THE FIRST PART IS ABOUT GAY BASHING).

DO THE MATH.
MAKE TEH INFERENCE.

*MAKES THE SIGN OF TEH TARD*

MUMRA SMEPER FI!

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"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
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Posted: April 04 2007,17:02

Signs they're losing it; Denyse forgets to plug her book.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/me-a-fundamentalist/

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
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Posted: April 04 2007,18:27

Quick, before it goes:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/evoluti....-110337

Quote

36

rblinne

04/04/2007

5:43 pm
My personal opinion is that ID is actually a variant of TE and thus should make dialog at least theoretically easy.

I always thought so.

“My quote that got interpretted as “spitting on the floor” should be seen in that context,

OK, so what specifically do you see in ID as being “bad science.””

The proposed tests for design don’t seem to be right. What I do for a living is engineering. Evolution looks more like what I do than specified complexity. For example, I use a random number generator to avoid local minima in the solution space. This “randomness” is because of the design and not despite it. Evolution does such a good job of solving problems a whole class of algorithms called genetic algorithms mimic it in order to do design optimization.
In my opinion, tests for design should be looking for order rather than specified or irreducible complexity.

“How are ID’s “anti-evolutionary” arguments weaker than the claims of evolution?”

The comparison is between biological ID and cosmological ID. The latter is arguments such as fine tuning arguing the ratios of the different kinds of forces are so fine tuned to life that it requires an Intelligent Designer. This is stronger because it still stands even if evolution is proven to be true.

The recent advances in genetics pretty much prove common descent. The techniques are similar to how we do DNA paternity test. Combined with observations of evolution happening right (e.g. bacteria that metabolizes nylon) along with many transistional forms found in the fossil record (at least 10 from fish to amphibians, 6 from amphibians to amniotes, 6 from synapsid to mammals, 6 from diapsid to birds, 6 from hominids to humans) now makes evolution to be quite likely. The other thing is the genetics line up with the fossil record. The fossil record predicts that we are related to Neanderthal and Chimpanzee. We are genetically closer to Neanderthal (98%) than Chimpanzee (96%). Genes turn into pseudo-genes and back again. The variations in the genome are not limited to SNPs but also include differences in copy number variation. The genome is not merely stacking the functional legos differently. The Chimpanzee genome has one more pair of chromosomes than the human one. But, our chromosome 2 is basically the two unique Chimp chromosomes spliced end-to-end. If the bone in the throat is natural selection, note that in neo-Darwinian evolution natural selection is only one of many mechanisms that drive it. Personally, I would prefer that biological ID was correct and evolution wrong. But, the evidence points in the opposite direction.

The worst case scenario is that ID remains an unproven hypothesis with no positive theory behind it. Here I mean a naturalistic explanation that is an alternative to evolution that explains the strong genetic evidence behind common descent. It may very well be there is no scientific evidence for design. This does NOT mean there is no evidence for design. ID may be giving science more power than it’s due. Science can only explain certain things and we should not make it the final arbiter for all truth like Dawkins does.

Design and evolution need not be in opposition. If you can prove design then you disprove evolution. But, if you prove evolution you don’t disprove design. In the end, when I am asked do you believe in Intelligent Design or Evolutionary Creationism, I say yes.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
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Posted: April 04 2007,18:36

Quote

A good rule of thumb is to put your finger

to the wind

and see what the mob hates most—very often that’s where the truth is.

Yeah, they are losing it.

They wouldn't know irony if it put its finger...

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

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"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

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Posted: April 04 2007,19:04

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyng....-393816

HAHAHA KRISTINE. YOUR BROOMSTICK IS DOUBLE PARKED!

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Reciprocating Bill

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Posted: April 04 2007,19:06

WAD cites an article:

Quote

“The World as Evolving Information”
William Dembski

Here’s an abstract to a speculative article by Carlos Gershenson on information. It is relevant to how intelligence might enter and be expressed in evolutionary processes. The article was posted yesterday at arxiv.org...

Read it here.

I gave it a squint. Strange stuff - not your father's information theory, although perhaps your grandfather's, if his name was, say, Edmund Husserl, given the thoroughly phenomenological approach Gershenson has conjured out of thin air: "Information is not necessarily conserved, i.e. it can be created (when an agent perceives it), destroyed (when no agent perceives it), or transformed (by an agent)."

I can see why WAD likes the article. This guy makes up Laws, just like Bill: The "Law of Information Transformation," The "Law of Requisite Complexity," the "Law of Information Criticality," and the "Law of Information Organization." Here are two:

"The Law of Information Propagation"

"Information tries to propagate as fast as possible. In other words, we can assume that different information has different “ability” to propagate, also depending on its environment. The “fitter” information, i.e. that which manages to persist and propagate faster and more effectively, will prevail over other information."

"The Law of information criticality":

"Transforming and propagating information will tend to a critical balance between its stability and its variability. Propagating information will try to maintain itself as much as possible, but transforming information will try to vary as much as possible."

Wow. I didn't know information had so much personality.

Also, Bill is attracted because the guy likes to say stuff that sounds heavy, but is really all gas: "Certainly, there are different types of cognition. We can say that a rock “knows” about gravity because it perceives its information, which has an effect on it, but it cannot react to this information. Throughout evolution, information capable of maintaining its integrity has prevailed over that which was not. Robust information is that which can resist perturbations to maintain its integrity. The ability to react to face perturbations to maintain information makes information adaptive, increasing its probability of maintenance."

Whoa, pass that over here, dude. (But I'm feeling sad for the rock.)

Gershenson does admit that "The ideas presented here still need to prove their usefulness." Another point where he and WAD are sympatico. "The explanatory and predictive benefits of this framework still remain to be addressed." Really? That sounds SO familiar....

I recommend this article. It is relevant to how intelligence might enter and be expressed in evolutionary processes. It also sheds light on my argument that a Think without a Poof is incapable of interacting with matter/energy, is therefore undetectable, and hence must remain a theoretical abstraction.

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Hereâ€™s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
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"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank

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Posted: April 04 2007,19:28

Quote (Kristine @ April 04 2007,12:25)

Oh, and Denyse: it seems that intelligent design is not very popular among Jews. What say you now?

That's OK -- in the fundie fantasy world, the Jews will all convert before The End Of The Show ------ oh, and those that don't convert, will all perish in Armageddon and pay the price in ####. (*)

It might not be surprising that many Jewish advocacy groups consider fundie Christians (like our pal "Dr" Hovind) to be anti-Semitic.

The fundies, of course, are utterly baffled as to why Jews would consider people who argue that Jews should become non-Jews or die, could be considered as anything other than *friends* of the Jews . . . . .

(*) As I noted previously, there are several fundie groups who are actively raising money to send Jews to Israel, precisely so they can bring about The End Of The Show and make those Jews convert or die.

Nice guys, huh.

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Posted: April 04 2007,19:28

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 04 2007,18:04)

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyng....-393816

HAHAHA KRISTINE. YOUR BROOMSTICK IS DOUBLE PARKED!

*Folds arms, nods, BOINK! disappears* Catch me now.

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

2ndclass

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Joined: June 2006

Posted: April 04 2007,19:35

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ April 04 2007,19:06)

Also, Bill is attracted because the guy likes to say stuff that sounds heavy, but is really all gas: "... Throughout evolution, information capable of maintaining its integrity has prevailed over that which was not. Robust information is that which can resist perturbations to maintain its integrity. The ability to react to face perturbations to maintain information makes information adaptive, increasing its probability of maintenance."

If maintaining information integrity is what it's all about, then the best "adaptation" that an organism can do is to get itself frozen in ice.

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"I wasn't aware that classical physics had established a position on whether intelligent agents exercising free were constrained by 2LOT into increasing entropy." -DaveScot

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Posted: April 04 2007,19:44

Hahahaha!

I just tried to index (Arden, my degree's in English) UD's main page using Dublin Core. The first subject/keyword that came up: "fray."

Also "pixie," "Rude," "nice," "okay," "holds," "sex," "ostriches," "God," "warning," etc.

Tralala. They should be happy somebody wants to fix their little red metadata wagon.

(It's just practice, I can't create a record yet.)

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Chris Hyland

Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: April 04 2007,19:59

OE Troll post of the month

Quote

One would think that Noah would be able to accomplish just about anything in building his Ark, since the directions supplied by God (the designer) might have included all sorts of clever "hacks" allowing end-runs around the restrictions of conventional physics, chemistry, and biology. Such hacks would allow actions similar to entering and exiting the Matrix (as in, the global simulation depicted in the movie having that name). I can imagine that a clever designer could include pressure points and worm-holes in the structure of the Universe allowing those who knew of their existence to bypass its normal laws.

Quote

What I find scary in all of this is the possibility that the Moral Fabric of the Universe might have similar UEEs embedded in it, allowing someone to kill, rape, get an abortion, watch pornography, take drugs, molest children, or steal without having to pay consequences in the afterlife. This might seem like an impossibility, but, if one allows me to be theological for a moment, we already know "the Lord works in mysterious ways": Jesus had to die for our sins, and someone had to kill Him, and those who killed Him were DOING THE LORD'S WORK. So perhaps Judas and the scourging Centurions are all in Heaven. The Lord also routinely destroys churches (even fundamentalist ones) using tornados. So we can't discount the possibility that a truly evil person might find a UEE allowing him to kill millions, live a thousand years, and then breeze on into the Kingdom of Heaven, perhaps without even having to die first.

If the whole scientist thing falls through I'm going to turn that into a pilot.

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