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GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,08:22   

Hey, Paley, why don't you post over at UD?  Or do you?  Have you gotten the badge of honor of being banned yet?

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,09:20   

Paley, your nonsense is not welcome on my thread.

   
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,10:12   

Quote
Paley, your nonsense is not welcome on my thread.

Yeah, yeah, let me just answer GCT's question: I've never posted on UD, and never plan to, because I hate their massive censorship. Even the evos should have a right to state their views, and if I ever had a blog, anybody who could avoid Carlin's choice words would be welcome. A debate without free speech is no debate at all, and I appreciate Wes's board policies.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,10:28   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Feb. 09 2006,13:42)
Quote
The only beautiful liberal women are concentrated in Hollywood and they are mostly dumb as a box of rocks.

Well, I wouldn't go that far - plenty of academic women are attractive. And actors tend to be brighter than most; they just don't use it. But it's true that liberalism draws primarily from two groups - twinkies and bitter people. And since attractive people tend to be more outgoing and successful (with no need of political crutches to justify their failure), the Professor has a point.

Twinkies and bitter people?  You left out satanists!

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,12:15   

Every once in a while, the thinkers over at Uncommon Pissant say something that just makes your jaw drop open. Behold!:

Quote
#

Hmmm… a monopoly in the marketplace of ideas. Interesting.

I wonder if it’s feasible to get the selling of evolution in court on antitrust grounds. It seems to me a there’s a legitimate case to be made for economic damage resulting from monopolizing textbook sales.

I can see students, with the support of their parents, boycotting 9th grade biology for the unAmerican, state sanctioned monopolistic practice going on within.

Is it time for a little good old American civil unrest and courtroom theatrics?

Comment by DaveScot — February 9, 2006 @ 3:59 am

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,12:21   

Also check out comments by "artist in training" over there. He's so clueless about evolution and ID, he's way off the script:

Quote
I posted something like that on Pandas Thumb last week and they just kept parroting the questions: “What is the scientific theory of ID?” “How can it be tested?” “What predictions does it make?”

I replied that it isn’t a “Theory” it is a few specific experiments that demonstrate the existence of a designer. That it couldn’t be tested because how can you test God, that is foolish. And that it doesn’t predict. What would it predict? Who could presume to know the mind of God?

   
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,12:32   

Scene:

Guthrie and artist in training face each other across a room.  Each has a medieval longsword in hand.  
A bell rings, and they approach each other.

Guthrie strikes straight down towards AIT shoulder from a high guard.  AIT fails miserably to block, because they donat actually know how to use a sword.  With blood fountaning everywhere from severed blood vessels, they collapse to to the floor, saying "But you shouldnt be able to do that..."

You can tell I'm getting a little annoyed with blatant stupidity, cant you?

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,12:53   

don't be annoyed, it's the funniest thing around. think of the comedy we've seen lately. DaveScot announces that you'd have to be a religious nut to oppose Common Descent, only to have DIers show up and tell him off. Commenters arriving every day to talk about Jesus Jesus Jesus. Embarrassing posts they tried to cover up, only to be thwarted by browser cache. DaveScot's circular non-helical DNA. It's just hilarious.

   
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,18:08   

I should think you'd enjoy artist's little ramblings. Somebody over there has already accused him of satire.   ;)

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,18:18   

Here is the thread that inspired artist to make his (or I thought of artist as a her) debut. Look at the replies she got.
http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/747#comments

especially see 11, 26 and 30

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/798#comments
see comment 15

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
PuckSR



Posts: 314
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,19:25   

I think this entire situation is hilarious....

I think one day we will learn about this story...but I imagine it goes somewhat like this

Dr. Dembski and an Atheist are sitting around talking about God.  The Atheist asks Bill why he believes in God.  Dembski counters with a traditional "grand design" remark.  The Atheist asks Bill if he can prove it.  Dembski knows that he cannot prove it, and tell the good Atheist that he cannot prove it.  Then Bill thinks about it for a moment.  "The one form of mathematics that is not absolute is statistics.  Math is normally considered a completely objective matter, but with statistics you must introduce subjectivity."  The Atheist asks Dr. Dembski if he can prove his belief statistically.  Dembski says that he can, but that it would be merely a farce.  The Atheist suggests a wager.  If Dr. Dembski can provide a 'proof' of a Grand Designer, and people will actually take him seriously...then the Atheist will buy Bill a bible.  If Dembski cannot convince people of his new 'proof' of a Grand Designer, the Bill has to buy him a pocket watch.

I imagine that the origin of Specified Complexity was thus, but then when Bill Dembski published a book and people actually bought it...he decided that he should continue the farce.

I dont honestly believe that Dr. Dembski believes in his particular idea.  He may not accept evolution, but I think deep down inside he knows that his particular contribution is rubbish.  I dont know if his motivation is Machiavellian or simply spiteful, but I think he knows.  

Any ideas?

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,19:56   

He has to know. If Dave Scott knows, then Dembski knows. But it's sometimes fun to fight on the losing side. Especially if you make a couple hundred bucks an hour doing it. ???

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2006,23:27   

Well, I guess it shows what happens when you take things out of context.  
Meanwhile, over at the PT, in the Tara smith speaks thread, theres a homeopathy bloke holding forth, so far hes managed to avoid the usual cliches (it works on animals, modern medicinei is toxic, etc etc.)  If any of you have medical experience you might like to go over and tear him up, since hes quoting some rheumatology study that apparently shows homeopathy is good.

  
avocationist



Posts: 173
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,04:40   

For heaven's sake you silly people next time you have the flu go buy some oscillococcinum. It works.

What's with all these arguments from personal incredulity doing here?

Artist is a sweet old grandpa that is brand new. He's working on opening his mind, so he's doing all that can be expected.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,04:57   

The people at Uncommon Descent are caught in Russell's Dilemma--they can't tell if Artist is a creationist, or a spoof of a creationist.

   
Artist in trainig



Posts: 12
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,05:46   

Darn, I misspelled my name in the sign up. Now i'm in trainig.  :angry:

Thank you avocationist. Not many people call me sweet and you are right, I am a grandPA rather than a GrandMA.

This whole subject is a little new to me. When I went to college (UCBerkeley 1960) This whole darn thing wasn't a problem. I easily reconciled my christian faith with science because I never felt like they really crossed. I used to just explain away the problem with, God started the whole thing (which seems pretty obvious to me) and we are figuring out how it works with science. I wouldn't have cared much but my granddaughter, who is majoring in biology, has become all political over the ID in schools issue and she said some things to me which got me concerned. Go ahead, I say, teach all the science you want, it's a good thing, but don't make a point of saying God did NOT start the ball rolling.

ID seems like a good thing to me because it seems to me like it is allowing for the obvious design in the universe. Now, I don't have a science background it's true. I try to avoid making assumptions about what is and isn't science but if ID is simply allowing for the appearance of design in our universe, I don't see how it could be evil. I also don't see how it is "Crackpot" stuff if they really just want us to allow that God isn't "dead" as Nietche said. I have a hard time believing outside of my religious training I know, but I also know that I have experienced God's love or the Holy Spirit or whatever you want to call it. This experience is real and repeatable. Many people share the experience. Doesn't that qualify as science? Repeatable in different laboritories? Maybe I have to put my fingers in my ears sometimes to move forward just a little but there are some things that are really just too emotionally difficult to confront all at once. At first I thought all the posters here were simply mean spirited people trying to push God out of their lives because they were afraid of the implications but I am beginning to get the feeling that most of you are sincere and probably right in a limited kind of a way. No one here has been as mean sprited as Dave Scott or John Davidson seems to be over at Uncommon Descent. Still, they are the ones defending the idea that God shouldn't be worked out of our lives completely through science and so, in the end, I still have to side with them for the most part.

I know they are saying that it's not about God but it is. It is dangerous for people to live their lives without respect for the world we live in and therefore, respect for God. Science has begun to take a stand against respecting the grand mystery that is God and I think it is difficult to respond intelligently to that challenge because it is so far out in left field if you do have religious training. One good that may come of it is it will strip religion of some of its political baggage (maybe) but the bad is that our children will have nothing to cling to when their lives get truly difficult.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,06:05   

Quote
It is dangerous for people to live their lives without respect for the world we live in and therefore, respect for God.


People have the right to live dangerously, I have been doing it for decades now and having lived on both sides of the fence I can say I much prefer the danger to the slavery of faith.

Quote
our children will have nothing to cling to when their lives get truly difficult.


Grown ups can get along fine in life without the need for a magic sky pixie.  People deal with the normal ups and downs in life all the time without imaginary big brothers or invisible daddies.  

It's a shame you view human beings as incompetant to face the world standing on their own two feet and thus need something or someone to cling to.

There is NOTHING that could happen to someone in life that they could not deal with on their own without support from imaginary entities.  Human beings are quite capable and resiliant.  Your morbid view of humanity is noted.

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,06:12   

Hi Artist,
I was in a similar position to you a while back. Also siding with ID.

Be carefull there. Some ID suporters and all the main ones, are dishonest.

Have you heard of the "wedge document"?

ID seems set on trying to destroy science. You seriously need to look into the past behaviour of these people before you ally with them.

Some folks on this side are grumpy and scathing. However they have been under atack for over 20 years by people using lies and smears, so it is entirly understandable.

One thing you will notice over here, hardly anyone gets banned. Unless that is, they go really out of their way to do so.

EDIT:
PS. Disagreement is also alowed over here.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,06:46   

Quote
This experience is real and repeatable. Many people share the experience. Doesn't that qualify as science?  
No, it doesn't. You need some tangible property you can measure and report, and let other people see if they get same results.
Quote
Repeatable in different labor[a]tories?
How so?
Quote
if ID is simply allowing for the appearance of design in our universe, I don't see how it could be evil.
But that's not what ID is about. First of all, no one is arguing with the appearance of design, at least in biology. (In what sense does the non-biological universe appear designed?) It's just that evolution explains how that apparent design might have developed, and all the evidence I'm aware of is consistent with that explanation. ID says that apparent design could not have come into being without an "intelligence", but there's no science, no measurements, no mechanism to back it up. They have nothing more than you do: a feeling that  something conscious must have, at some point, somehow done something to effect a preconceived design. They try to dress it up with equations and sciencey language, but that's all it is.

I don't share your idea of God (I don't think I do, anyway). But it strikes me that the IDer's thesis that they can deduce anything outside of nature about the mechanisms by which creation was created is distinctly contrary to the christianity I was brought up in. The IDers say "we can say this is designed because it has the hallmarks of how we would design things. But the bible says "my ways are not your ways" (Isaiah 55:8 or so, if I remember correctly).    

Quote
I am beginning to get the feeling that most of you are sincere and probably right in a limited kind of a way
That's all I really aspire to.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,06:53   

Quote
Science has begun to take a stand against respecting the grand mystery that is God

Gosh darn that Galileo!

--------------
The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
PuckSR



Posts: 314
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,07:35   

Einstein frequently attributed the simplicity of natural laws to God.  He realized the sheer complexity and paradoxical grand simplicity of the Universe...and realized that it was truly a great design.

I share his admiration for our Reality, and I have long used it to justify my belief in a Supreme Being.

This is why I am so totally offended by ID.

If ID was simply a philosophy, then I would endorse it whole-heartedly.  They could still calculate their figures about the rareness of existence, but with philosophy it is left as a conjecture.

The problem with ID is that they suppose that their philosophical assumptions are actually scientific.  Science does not make assumptions, nor does it operate in the vague world of the word "appears".

Also, if we were dealing only with the philosophical ID, then absolutely no conflict would truly exist with current Evolutionary Theory.  The fact that IDist oppose Evolutionary Theory indicates their very clear anti-science motives to me at least.

So, AIT, please realize that most people do not oppose the philosophical idea of an "intelligent Designer".  Most people oppose trying to make a philosophical idea into a scientific theory.

BTW....consider the vast number of people who support the philosophical idea of ID.  These people easily get confused by the difference between believing ID and proving ID.  They are offended when they hear that people are trying to discredit the idea of a "Designed Universe".  The problem, and you need to realize this, is that no one is trying to discredit the IDea.  People are simply trying to explain that the idea is not scientific.

  
avocationist



Posts: 173
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,07:44   

It is very difficult for me to believe that someone could say that smear tactics have been from the ID side. I have been reading around on the net for many months now, and it appears to me that the false representation and outright nastiness toward ID is far ahead of any tendency to rational argument. I hardly ever see it going in the opposite direction. I read a lot of the links to articles posted in the media. In my own hometown newspaper, someone did a writeup of ID that not only was false, but he insinuated that if ID were to prevail, modern medicine would go out the window and we would rely on faith healers. This is a high level of hysteria and paranoia.

Of course, I have tried to discuss with ID or religious folks a little bit about why they might need to own up to how christianity has caused a certain amount of fear, but no one answers.

Go to the Discovery Institute and read what they have to say about the wedge document. They disown the wedge document and that should be good enough.There are dishonest and fundamentalist people out there aplenty. I don't think the document is actually from those reconstructionist types and some of the points from the wedge DI agrees with. You might want to have a look.

  
PuckSR



Posts: 314
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,07:59   

Avo-

Your missing the point.  

If I call you an idiot...that is a smear...because you have been a very intelligent and thoughtful speaker to this point.

If I call DaveScot a jerk...then I am at least being somewhat honest, even if I am being slightly harsh.  DaveScot has been rather jerkish...even if it is wrong to call him a jerk.

When ID is attacked, it is attacked for good reason.  They may exaggerate the problems.  They might overstate the implications....but they are still alluding to valid points.

When ID attacks...it frequently does so blindly....and without proper provocation.  For example:  You think that their are massive unaddressed flaws with 'Darwinism'...yet you cant tell us what they are...so your claim of these flaws is unwarranted until you can actually list these flaws.

If, however, someone claims that dropping Evolution and replacing it with ID will push medicine into the dark ages...they actually have a reason.  It may be hyperbole, but since many, many modern medical advances are based on the Theory of Evolution...it would not be false to claim that if Evolution was false...then many medical discoveries would be invalidated.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,08:05   

FYI Artist, here's a list of 400 or so claims Creationists (of the Intelligent Design flavor and other flavors) make regarding evolution, with explanations about why the claims are wrong, and references for further reading, etc.

http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

If you are an educated person, and are not a zealot, hang out and read Panda's Thumb articles for a few weeks or months, and you'll understand what's wrong with ID and its proponents.

   
Sanctum



Posts: 88
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,08:28   

Artist in training,
what thread were you on when you were shouted down by people Like BWM here?

  
Sanctum



Posts: 88
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,08:30   

Sorry Richard Dawkins, I meant BWE.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,08:50   

Quote
It is very difficult for me to believe that someone could say that smear tactics have been from the ID side... I hardly ever see it going in the opposite direction
Oh, really? So you think the accusations that the majority of scientists are engaged in a massive fraud to try to promote an atheist agenda is a pretty reasonable assessment? Are you familiar with this for instance? And you think Davison and DaveScot are pretty even-handed in their characterization of ID-critics?
Quote
In my own hometown newspaper, someone did a writeup of ID that not only was false, but he insinuated that if ID were to prevail, modern medicine would go out the window and we would rely on faith healers. This is a high level of hysteria and paranoia.
Given the effectiveness of your own blinders, I'm not about to take your word for whether the writeup of ID was false. But to point out the antiscientific nature of ID by comparison with faith healers does not strike me as a "smear". Perhaps your dismissing these concerns as hysterical and paranoid is a "smear". I won't pass judgment without reading the piece your criticizing (but not quoting), but I will tell you I honestly worry about the anti-science, anti-intellectual religious right mindset that seems to be inseparable from ID. And a lot of the "ID supporters" I've heard at the local level (as opposed to the slick operation run out of Seattle) would not be disturbed in the least to be accused of crediting faith-healers.

Quote
Go to the Discovery Institute and read what they have to say about the wedge document. They disown the wedge document and that should be good enough.
Go to the Discovery Institute and read what they have to say about the wedge document. They disown the wedge document and that should be good enough.[/quote]First of all,
they don't disown it at all. They say "So what?" But, no, taking the Disco Institute's word for anything is not good enough.

--------------
Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Artist in trainig



Posts: 12
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,08:59   

"People have the right to live dangerously, I have been doing it for decades now and having lived on both sides of the fence I can say I much prefer the danger to the slavery of faith...,

Grown ups can get along fine in life without the need for a magic sky pixie.  People deal with the normal ups and downs in life all the time without imaginary big brothers or invisible daddies.  

It's a shame you view human beings as incompetant to face the world standing on their own two feet and thus need something or someone to cling to."

Mr. Christopher,

People do have the right to live dangerously. But we also live in a society of which there are rules of conduct and natural support mechanisms (George Bush aside). Faith is one of those support mechanisms and if you take it away, that may be all well and good for you and those who can live without it, but for me and many others who may not be as strong as you when it comes to coping with a harsh reality of meaninglessness and loss, faith is one of the things that helps us be strong in the face of adversity. If you take that part of ourselves away, don't you take away a respect for the very fact of our existence and a source of strength for people who might need it? What was it that allowed Martin Luther King Jr. to stand firm in the face of such daunting obsticles? Ghandi too, relied on faith for strength. Mother Theresa?

For those who choose to stand without God, maybe they have trancended a basic need that I and countless others seem to have. But when I look out at the night sky, I feel good imagining God. I would like to have understanding of God but it isn't necessary. I still feel good imagining God. And what is more important in life than feeling good, truth? What is truth? Something that can be replicated in a lab? Maybe. But truth is also quite slippery and I think it is a bit presumptuous to assume that you hold the truth in your test tube. If the ID sciences search for truth they will get no farther and perhaps not even as far but the scale is vast and we do not have the capacity to move very far.

Einstein was right when he realized the beauty in his equations but they aren't simple. And they aren't descriptive of the whole thing that is existence.

I have been reading Pandas Thumb for a few weeks now and I'm beginning to get an idea of what the problem is with the ID camp. God too is slippery and trying to pin him/her/it down into a high-school textbook is also dangerous. You get what we have in the middle east at the far end of that scale. But to claim that God isn't important is equally dangerous. I think.

Thank you for your comments.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,09:16   

Quote
but for me and many others who may not be as strong as you when it comes to coping with a harsh reality of meaninglessness and loss
Why do I only ever hear this from the religious camp? I never hear fellow atheists talk about how grim and wretched life is. Where do religious people get this idea that life without god is meaningless and worthless? This erroneous idea goes quite against the evidence that we atheists are not depressed and nihilistic. Perhaps the religious people just don't appreciate the value of evidence.

   
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2006,09:18   

No, I think they believe we're lying. Or on drugs.

--------------
The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
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