Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::Official Uncommonly Dense Discussion Thread

Posted: June 07 2007,15:34

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 07 2007,15:24)

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 07 2007,13:04)

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 07 2007,13:02)

see. same number of posts.

ARE YOU STALKING ME??? :angry:

Edit: oh wait. That ruined it. :(

ha! nice try.

You ARE me.

I want to see Master Tard calculate the probability that two separate people on this board that had posted over 2000 would have the exact same number of posts.

like i said, the probability is just too overwhelming for it to be any other explanation than that we are simply the same person posting under multiple identities.

steve should ban us.

I mean me.

Twin sons of different mothers...
or perhaps,

Start The ID Revolution Without Me

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Bebbo

Posts: 161
Joined: Dec. 2002

Posted: June 07 2007,15:35

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 07 2007,15:22)

Somebody fisks the fisking. DS says

Quote

UD Subscriber Magnan pinches his nose closed long enough to fisk Mark Chu-Carrol’s vitriolic spittle strewn imbecilic diatribe “review” of Michael Behe’s new book The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism in a comment here. I reproduce it in its entirety. Now that someone has responded to it point by point I hope those who have been losing sleep over it can get some rest.

IT's just a shame that magnan then says

Quote

I found mostly prejudiced misinterpretations and invalid arguments, more than I can completely recount here.

Why? Is UD running out of bytes? What's stopping you recounting the full list Magnan?

Yet his "fisking" comes to nothing in the end

Quote

Behe doesn’t mention recombination because mutation is still the major source of change to the genome, as admitted in many orthodox MET sources. Recombination mainly reshuffles alleles (different mutated versions of genes) during reproduction of sex cells in eukaryotic organisms.

Sure, make excuses for Behe. And what's the "as admitted in many orthodox MET sources" about? Don't tell me IDiots pick and choose what bits of "real" science they parasitise? SHocking.

Shame that Davey doesn't tell us what Magnan's credentials are after his overlord Dembski made such a song and dance about Chu-Carroll's.

phonon

Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

Posted: June 07 2007,17:36

Why didn't Dembki "fisk" Chu-Caroll's fisking?

Isn't he the math wiz? (That comes in spread or spray form.)

He had to rely on some reader who didn't really fisk anything. He just basically said, "That wasn't a very good fisking. I've seen better."

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With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

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Joined: Oct. 2005

Posted: June 07 2007,17:43

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 07 2007,16:22)

Mark Chu-Carrol’s vitriolic spittle strewn imbecilic diatribe “review” of Michael Behe’s new book

4 adjectives for one noun? That's Charlie Wagner-level English.

oldmanintheskydidntdoit

Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

Posted: June 07 2007,17:47

Quote (phonon @ June 07 2007,17:36)

Why didn't Dembki "fisk" Chu-Caroll's fisking?

Isn't he the math wiz? (That comes in spread or spray form.)

He had to rely on some reader who didn't really fisk anything. He just basically said, "That wasn't a very good fisking. I've seen better."

I have to wonder how even the hardcore loons can cling on over at UD. Ages ago on the "huge microbe has more DNA then humans" thread at UD Troutmac asked what ID "theory" made of this. The lack of a reasonable answer to that and all other reasonable questions must be telling on even the most decidated UD fan. There is a noticable lack of comments on most threads, normally Jehu getting riled and channeling Lassie

Quote

Every time Behe publishes I can smell the fear rising from the Darwinist camp....
I see Chu-Carroll’s arguments are already being flogged in the one-star reader review screeds on Amazon. Those reader review screeds, I might add, reek of fear.

Most amusing
Oh, Atom notes

Quote

Mike Behe’s book is currently #23 on the amazon bestsellers Science category.

Well, it's down to #35 now. Where will it be tommrow? Where will Dawkins book be, even though it's been out yonks? Still at number #4 I suspect, or near enough. Now all the mouthbreathers have their copy, it'll drop like a stone. Plenty more rubes around the corner however, it'll keep selling somewhat. No doubt FTK will buy her friends a copy for the winter holiday season

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

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Joined: Oct. 2005

Posted: June 07 2007,17:49

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 07 2007,16:24)

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 07 2007,13:04)

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 07 2007,13:02)

see. same number of posts.

ARE YOU STALKING ME??? :angry:

Edit: oh wait. That ruined it. :(

ha! nice try.

You ARE me.

I want to see Master Tard calculate the probability that two separate people on this board that had posted over 2000 would have the exact same number of posts.

like i said, the probability is just too overwhelming for it to be any other explanation than that we are simply the same person posting under multiple identities.

steve should ban us.

I mean me.

It might be a low probability at any one instant, but it's not a low probability that they'll ever have the same number of posts. If they are both somewhat close, and the person with the higher number of posts doesn't post at a higher rate that the lower person, it's quite likely that they will have the same number of posts at some point in time.

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank

Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

Posted: June 07 2007,17:58

Quote (stevestory @ June 05 2007,22:38)

I've had 20-year-old girlfriends with D-cups

Lucky bastard.

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

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Posted: June 07 2007,18:02

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ June 07 2007,18:58)

Quote (stevestory @ June 05 2007,22:38)

I've had 20-year-old girlfriends with D-cups

Lucky bastard.

Not too lucky. That was the only good thing about the relationship. The average looking girlfriends have worked out much better than the really good looking ones.

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: June 07 2007,18:04

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 07 2007,15:24)

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 07 2007,13:04)

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 07 2007,13:02)

see. same number of posts.

ARE YOU STALKING ME??? :angry:

Edit: oh wait. That ruined it.

ha! nice try.

You ARE me.

That explains why we've never been photographed together, like Ringo Starr and Yasser Arafat.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: June 07 2007,18:05

Quote (stevestory @ June 07 2007,18:02)

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ June 07 2007,18:58)

Quote (stevestory @ June 05 2007,22:38)

I've had 20-year-old girlfriends with D-cups

Lucky bastard.

Not too lucky. That was the only good thing about the relationship. The average looking girlfriends have worked out much better than the really good looking ones.

Have any of them begged you to sire their children?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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Joined: Oct. 2005

Posted: June 07 2007,18:08

Nope.

dhogaza

Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2006

Posted: June 07 2007,19:34

The supposed fisking of Chu-Carroll includes this gem:

Quote

Chu goes into a long diatribe over Behe’s use of the “fitness landscape” concept in his argument. It seems to me these criticisms are obfuscations and irrelevant to Behe’s thesis...

(jaw hits floor)

Let's see ... the mathematical foundation of Behe's attempt at mathematically proving his point is irrelevant to Behe's thesis.

Got it!

franky172

Posts: 160
Joined: Jan. 2007

Posted: June 08 2007,11:30

DaveScot
summarizes ID:

ID proponent: We have a mathematical proof that evolution can't produce features X,Y, and Z. This proves intelligent design is the only way to generate these features, and totally removes the need for subjective measures of how amazingly complicated life is to conclude ID.

Scientist: Never mind the obvious logical flaw in your argument, your math is wrong, inapplicable to the problem, and usually both.

ID proponent: No it isn't. It's a mathematical proof. Therefore it's right.

Scientist: But it's wrong. You failed to account for A,B, and C, and this says 2+2 = 5. That's just wrong.

ID proponent: Oh. But look how amazingly complicated life is! Therefore ID. Q.E.D.

EDIT: it appears as though DaveScot has changed the initial text on the linked post, originally I believe the first line read something like "Chu-Carroll's argument against Behe focusses on the point that Behe doesn't consider dynamic fitness landscapes...". At least that's a paraphrase of my impression of the original post... I think it's somewhat accurate, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Albatrossity2

Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

Posted: June 08 2007,12:06

I was perusing the website for the new Chick tract from the DI, "Exploring Evolution" in order to figure out if I can get a free "examination copy" to put on my shelf alongside "Of Pandas and People" and the Bob Jones Univ.-published "Biology for Christian Schools". Alas, there seems to be no way to do that. But along the way I noticed that one of the endorsements for the book was from a fellow named John Silvius, of Cedarville University. I knew a John Silvius who published some good papers in membrane biology a few years back, so this piqued my interest. A brief googling revealed that this Silvius apparently has a Ph.D. in Plant Physiology from West Virginia University, and did a two-year post-doc at U of Illinois. He is apparently a real biologist, but I could find no publications of his listed in the Web of Science (the John Silvius that I know had 10 pubs listed, including one in 2006 in Science).

Not so surprising is that Cedarville is a Baptist school which lists on its webpages these attributes:

# Unwavering commitment to the inerrancy and authority of Scripture
# Creationist approach to scientific research and study
# Required Bible minor a part of all academic programs
# Daily chapels with relevant biblical teaching and authentic praise
# Discipleship groups that provide opportunities for Bible study, mentoring, accountability, prayer, and open discussion

I wonder how they can tell if your praise is "authentic"? More relevantly, what do you think the tenure requirements might be for this place? The Human Resources office has this notice:

Quote

Employment at Cedarville University, regardless of position, requires full belief in the Doctrinal Statement and agreement to abide by the Community Covenant and General Work Place Standards of Conduct of the University.

with links to the Doctrinal Statement. as well as a Church Membership requirement which describes the kind of church you must attend in order to be employed there. Things like scriptural inerrancy, literal 6-day creation, and evangelism seem to be important.

Although there are no openings in physics or astronomy for Gonzalez, they do have an opening for a faculty job in Biology. Unfortunately, I don't think I am qualified...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
- Pattiann Rogers

Richardthughes

Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: June 08 2007,12:15

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-124099

Ban?

Quote

45

jaredl

06/08/2007

11:21 am
I have another issue.

I have stated elsewhere that cosmological arguments for design are necessarily vacuous, using Dembski’s formulation of CSI as the sole legitimate criterion for detecting design.

One cannot perform the required probability calculation - it cannot be shown that things could be otherwise. As far as we know, the set of possible natural laws contains only one element.

Why, therefore, do we infer design anyway?

I’m going to suggest something here. Dembski, in crafting his explanatory filter, attempted to capture in philosophical and mathematical symbolism the instinctive each of us actually executes in inferring design. Clearly, the filter is missing something, for cosmological arguments seem compelling, even lacking the necessary probabilistic analysis.

Could it be that mere algorithmic compressibility is, in fact, a reliable hallmark of design?

I will say though, that post had LOADS of CSI.

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"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
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Posted: June 08 2007,12:19

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 08 2007,12:06)

I was perusing the website for the new Chick tract from the DI, "Exploring Evolution" in order to figure out if I can get a free "examination copy" to put on my shelf alongside "Of Pandas and People" and the Bob Jones Univ.-published "Biology for Christian Schools".

I assume you have this classic?

I hope Gonzalez does get picked up by some place like East Jesus Bible and Polytechnic Institute or whoever. It's the least they can do after exploiting him so thoroughly for propaganda purposes.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Louis

Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: June 08 2007,12:42

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 08 2007,19:19)

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 08 2007,12:06)

I was perusing the website for the new Chick tract from the DI, "Exploring Evolution" in order to figure out if I can get a free "examination copy" to put on my shelf alongside "Of Pandas and People" and the Bob Jones Univ.-published "Biology for Christian Schools".

I assume you have this classic?

I hope Gonzalez does get picked up by some place like East Jesus Bible and Polytechnic Institute or whoever. It's the least they can do after exploiting him so thoroughly for propaganda purposes.

I don't. I hope Gonzalez comes to his sense, gives up the ID shite as the not-even-science-piss-poor-excuse-for-religious-apologetics it is and works his balls off and gets a good tenured post by bringing in a bit more cash and doing a bit more research this time. The world needs more scientists, and I wish GG no ill at all.

(IIRC his publication and revenue generation track records were the most concrete tenure refusal reasons I read about. How true this is I don't really know, I wasn't at his tenure review!)

Louis

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Bye.

J-Dog

Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

Posted: June 08 2007,12:54

Quote (Louis @ June 08 2007,12:42)

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 08 2007,19:19)

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 08 2007,12:06)

I was perusing the website for the new Chick tract from the DI, "Exploring Evolution" in order to figure out if I can get a free "examination copy" to put on my shelf alongside "Of Pandas and People" and the Bob Jones Univ.-published "Biology for Christian Schools".

I assume you have this classic?

I hope Gonzalez does get picked up by some place like East Jesus Bible and Polytechnic Institute or whoever. It's the least they can do after exploiting him so thoroughly for propaganda purposes.

I don't. I hope Gonzalez comes to his sense, gives up the ID shite as the not-even-science-piss-poor-excuse-for-religious-apologetics it is and works his balls off and gets a good tenured post by bringing in a bit more cash and doing a bit more research this time. The world needs more scientists, and I wish GG no ill at all.

(IIRC his publication and revenue generation track records were the most concrete tenure refusal reasons I read about. How true this is I don't really know, I wasn't at his tenure review!)

Louis

Louis - You're just the "Last Of The Boyscouts"... I am much more inclined to root for him forming and leading the Bob Jones Toy Telescope Astronomy / Astrology Club, which meets on alternate Tuesdays, where punch and cookies will be served, and conversion stories witnessed. Speaking in Tongues is optional, as always.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Albatrossity2

Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

Posted: June 08 2007,12:59

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 08 2007,12:19)

I assume you have this classic?

Yeah, that one IS a classic. It perfectly (and no doubt accidentally) captures the smug arrogance of the creationist, as well as the disdain that folks like that have for universities, professors, etc. And, best of all, the professor who gets converted seems to resemble PZ.

In their dreams...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
- Pattiann Rogers

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: June 08 2007,13:39

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 08 2007,12:59)

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 08 2007,12:19)

I assume you have this classic?

Yeah, that one IS a classic. It perfectly (and no doubt accidentally) captures the smug arrogance of the creationist, as well as the disdain that folks like that have for universities, professors, etc. And, best of all, the professor who gets converted seems to resemble PZ.

There are some very deep undercurrents in that little tract. I've always thought it was telling how the evil evolutionist wears a beard and looks Jewish, while the saintly creationist is clean-cut and looks Nordic.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

argystokes

Posts: 766
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: June 08 2007,13:56

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 08 2007,11:39)

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 08 2007,12:59)

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 08 2007,12:19)

I assume you have this classic?

Yeah, that one IS a classic. It perfectly (and no doubt accidentally) captures the smug arrogance of the creationist, as well as the disdain that folks like that have for universities, professors, etc. And, best of all, the professor who gets converted seems to resemble PZ.

There are some very deep undercurrents in that little tract. I've always thought it was telling how the evil evolutionist wears a beard and looks Jewish, while the saintly creationist is clean-cut and looks Nordic.

Yeah, and it isn't just that one. Look through the tracts, you'll see a whole lot of jewish-looking folks playing the villians and cheesy moustached nords playing the heroes. It could be unintentional I suppose, or maybe I'm even wrong. I don't think I feel like digging through them all to make sure, though.

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"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin

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Posted: June 08 2007,14:08

Quote (argystokes @ June 08 2007,13:56)

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 08 2007,11:39)

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 08 2007,12:59)

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 08 2007,12:19)

I assume you have this classic?

Yeah, that one IS a classic. It perfectly (and no doubt accidentally) captures the smug arrogance of the creationist, as well as the disdain that folks like that have for universities, professors, etc. And, best of all, the professor who gets converted seems to resemble PZ.

There are some very deep undercurrents in that little tract. I've always thought it was telling how the evil evolutionist wears a beard and looks Jewish, while the saintly creationist is clean-cut and looks Nordic.

Yeah, and it isn't just that one. Look through the tracts, you'll see a whole lot of jewish-looking folks playing the villians and cheesy moustached nords playing the heroes. It could be unintentional I suppose, or maybe I'm even wrong. I don't think I feel like digging through them all to make sure, though.

I don't think you're wrong at all. I think the only question is whether it was deliberate or whether it was subconscious on Chick's part.

Sometimes I suspect that, uh, 'political cartoons' from 1930s Germany were a big artistic influence on Chick.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Wesley R. Elsberry

Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

Posted: June 08 2007,14:19

Quote

Could it be that mere algorithmic compressibility is, in fact, a reliable hallmark of design?

SAI says... short program length means that there is a simple computational process that accounts for something. That can't be blown up into the rarefied design Dembski wants to underwrite.

These folks don't get out much, do they?

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Louis

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Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: June 08 2007,15:26

Quote

Louis - You're just the "Last Of The Boyscouts"... I am much more inclined to root for him forming and leading the Bob Jones Toy Telescope Astronomy / Astrology Club, which meets on alternate Tuesdays, where punch and cookies will be served, and conversion stories witnessed. Speaking in Tongues is optional, as always.

Nahh I just don't have it in me to wish them all any bad. I just wish they'd wake up. Oh I might be a bit rude now and then and desire to administer a mild smacking to the worst arrogant offenders on occasion, but beyond that.....

You see, try as I might to forget, they are still human beings. There is a reason they are being deliberately oblivious to the evidence. Not "evidence" in the "god is love you just hate him" not-really-evidence-at-all sense, but real solid proper evidence open to research and reason. I want them to get past that reason and join the rational world.

But then I'm an optimist.

Louis

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Bye.

Kristine

Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

Posted: June 08 2007,15:40

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 08 2007,13:19)

Quote

Could it be that mere algorithmic compressibility is, in fact, a reliable hallmark of design?

SAI says... short program length means that there is a simple computational process that accounts for something. That can't be blown up into the rarefied design Dembski wants to underwrite.

These folks don't get out much, do they?

Nope. And I second everything Louis has said. I wish they'd get out and discover something worth knowing.

(And I'm still reeling from that creationist Galapagos trip link - thanks. Half the chocolate in the office is now gone. Gaaa.)

Quote

Yet, the “Chu-Carroll” “Behe” counter on Google is now up to 26,400 hits. The Chu-Carroll placebo is in high demand.

Quote

I tell ya, if PZ Meyers and his shrill venoumous ilk didn’t exist we’d have to invent them.

Are these guys bragging, or complaining? I can't tell anymore. (And you did invent me, DaveScot, or at least 90% of what you think is me.)

("First they came for the cupcakes, I didn't speak up for I had a stash of hash brownies...")

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

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Posted: June 08 2007,15:47

Quote (Kristine @ June 08 2007,16:40)

("First they came for the cupcakes, I didn't speak up for I had a stash of hash brownies...") :)

Then they came for the...I forget. Like I said, hash brownies.

carlsonjok

Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

Posted: June 08 2007,15:49

Quote (Kristine @ June 08 2007,15:40)

("First they came for the cupcakes, I didn't speak up for I had a stash of hash brownies...") :)

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

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Posted: June 08 2007,15:49

Quote (Louis @ June 08 2007,15:26)

Quote

Louis - You're just the "Last Of The Boyscouts"... I am much more inclined to root for him forming and leading the Bob Jones Toy Telescope Astronomy / Astrology Club, which meets on alternate Tuesdays, where punch and cookies will be served, and conversion stories witnessed. Speaking in Tongues is optional, as always.

Nahh I just don't have it in me to wish them all any bad. I just wish they'd wake up. Oh I might be a bit rude now and then and desire to administer a mild smacking to the worst arrogant offenders on occasion, but beyond that.....

You see, try as I might to forget, they are still human beings. There is a reason they are being deliberately oblivious to the evidence. Not "evidence" in the "god is love you just hate him" not-really-evidence-at-all sense, but real solid proper evidence open to research and reason. I want them to get past that reason and join the rational world.

I actually don't wish Gonzalez ill, either. He's probably a perfectly fine person to live next to, he presumably pays his taxes and probably doesn't beat his kids. But I don't see him 'reforming' from his more daffy scientific views (that doesn't happen real often), and besides, the DI's exploitation of him has made him permanently radioactive from the perspective of the hiring committee of any real college. No repectable university is going to touch him with a 10-foot pole (a) with his bad track record of getting grants and (b) after the stink that was raised when his tenure vote came thru. So to be honest, his best shot at a comfortable career is if some jerkwater college like Bob Jones or Liberty picks him up -- which probably is what will happen, after the DI finishes milking him dry for PR purposes.

Quote

But then I'm an optimist.

Yeah, yeah, you and Kristine, I swear...

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Kristine

Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

Posted: June 08 2007,16:20

Are hash brownies good? I've never had any...

*Braces for reaction*

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Louis

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Joined: Jan. 2006