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Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2010,20:01    Jonathan Sarfati of CMI gave a talk in Canton, Ohio New York of the usual sort. I've entered a couple of comments in the section following the local paper's report. ETC: State of the event. Hat tip to Leftfield. Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Oct. 13 2010,20:14 -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2010,20:10    Can you get a Post Of The Week for a newspaper letter?* * Since this is pretty much your site, I say yes! -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2010,20:24    Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 11 2010,18:01) Jonathan Sarfati of CMI gave a talk in Canton, Ohio of the usual sort. I've entered a couple of comments in the section following the local paper's report. They refused to let me register. PS: Good responses, Wes. Edited by Dr.GH on Oct. 11 2010,19:06 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

MichaelJ Posts: 462 Joined: June 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2010,20:52    Bettina must get the award of non-sequitur of the week

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2010,18:43    I usually look at AiG's website every few days, just to see what new and unusual claims they are due to come up with next. Today's article, quite a highly technical piece on peat moss, is written by someone called Duanne D. Miller, PhD: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v5/n1/peat-moss-design Interestingly, AiG don't tell us anything at all about the author. I'd never heard of the guy so i did a quick Google. This is what I turned up. He's written two further articles on creationism: http://www.matsati.com/Peppered_Moths.pdf http://www.matsati.com/Religion_Evolution_and_biased_research.pdf Now I can't find anything else about Duanne D. Miller PhD, other than there's a member of staff at the University of Tenessee with that very same name: http://www.uthsc.edu/neuroscience/faculty/D_Miller.php and with a very impressive C.V.: http://www.uthsc.edu/pharmacy/pharmsci/faculty/dmiller/ Is this the same Duanne D. Miller ? It kind of got me wondering, just how many highly qualified US educaters are YECs without anyone even realising it ?

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2010,19:27    Quote As the Clergy Letter Project shows, quite a substantial proportion of Christian clergy do not subscribe to any such dichotomy. and some scientists state Wesley, in no uncertain terms, that Christianity and science are incompatable: http://www.usatoday.com/news....T_N.htm       Quote "But surely," you might argue, "science and religion must be compatible. After all, some scientists are religious." One is Francis Collins, head of the National Institutes of Health and an evangelical Christian. But the existence of religious scientists, or religious people who accept science, doesn't prove that the two areas are compatible. It shows only that people can hold two conflicting notions in their heads at the same time. If that meant compatibility, we could make a good case, based on the commonness of marital infidelity, that monogamy and adultery are perfectly compatible. No, the incompatibility between science and faith is more fundamental: Their ways of understanding the universe are irreconcilable Now where does that leave the clergy letter project ? Dead in the water, in my opinion. Seems to me that Coyne and Sarfatti agree on at least one thing. People like Coyne are the reason why so many Christians are persuaded more by AiG than real science, depite YECism's absurdity

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2010,20:20    Golly, Peter, I think it was pretty clear in what I wrote that Sarfati and various folks who disagree with him on the status of creationism nonetheless agree that a dichotomy exists. I also stated that others don't sign onto the dichotomy. So citing people's opinion in the first group (literalist creationists and "new atheists") to declare the second group's opinion "dead in the water" just doesn't make much sense to me. What you are saying is that people who believe that there is a dichotomy continue to believe that there is a dichotomy... not particularly informative, in my book. ETA: Grammar. Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Oct. 14 2010,17:31 -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,05:09    I largely agree with the clergy letter project Wesley, don't get me wrong and I agree with your comments. However, every time Coyne (who I regard as far more extreme than Dawkins) makes one of these tatements he does the project no good and I become really quite dismayed. It gives the YECs like Sarfatti ammunition, in my opinion. "See, we told you so, even Atheists can recognise there's a problem with evolution and Christianity". It also drives Christians who are wavering on the issue into the hands of the likes of Ken Ham. Coyne's really saying that Christian's have to make a choice. Unfortunately, many will make that choice and become YECs, rather than give up their faith for the sake of science. Last time Richard Dawkins was a guest on talkback (BBC Radio Ulster), he pointed listeners who accepted evolution and who were Christians in the direction of Francis Collins and Kenneth Miller.

Seversky Posts: 442 Joined: June 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,08:57    If you haven't already read it, you will find that John Pieret on his blog Thoughts in a Haystack is quite scathing about Coyne's forays into philosophy and theology. As for Duanne D Miller, I see nothing surprising there.  He is just further evidence, if any were needed, for the hypothesis that an advanced scientific education and credentials do not necessarily confer an immunity to religious belief of some sort.  The only small caveat is whether his field of expertise qualifies him a competent or appropriate authority on evolutionary biology. In my view, there is no direct clash between a monolithic Science and a monolithic Religion.  That is a vast oversimplification.   There are cases where specific claims about the natural world by a particular faith are contradicted by science, such as the Christian creationist claim that the world is only 6,000 years old.  Does that somehow invalidate Christianity as a whole?  Turn it around.  Supposing research were to find that societies that lived by the Golden Rule were, on balance, healthier and happier than those that followed a more selfish morality such as Greed is Good.  Would that tend to confirm Christianity? As for the question of origins, claims by celebrity scientists notwithstanding, the simple answer is no one - no one - knows.  Which means that atheists are no more entitled to sneer at the beliefs of a Kenneth Miller than are conservative believers to regard atheists or agnostics as more despicable than pedophiles. Humility is supposed to be a virtue in both science and religion - albeit more often honored in the breach than the observance, as they say - and I would suggest it its the best way to approach both our differences and our ignorance.

Henry J Posts: 5787 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,09:51    Quote Supposing research were to find that societies that lived by the Golden Rule were, on balance, healthier and happier than those that followed a more selfish morality such as Greed is Good.  Would that tend to confirm Christianity? Never mind Christianity; what would that result say about the Ferengi culture?

Seversky Posts: 442 Joined: June 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,12:21    Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 14 2010,09:51)   Quote Supposing research were to find that societies that lived by the Golden Rule were, on balance, healthier and happier than those that followed a more selfish morality such as Greed is Good.  Would that tend to confirm Christianity? Never mind Christianity; what would that result say about the Ferengi culture?  :p That it was founded by the Great God Gordon (Gekko)?

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,15:40    Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 14 2010,10:51) Quote Supposing research were to find that societies that lived by the Golden Rule were, on balance, healthier and happier than those that followed a more selfish morality such as Greed is Good.  Would that tend to confirm Christianity? Never mind Christianity; what would that result say about the Ferengi culture?  :p What, indeed? I'm all ears. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,16:43    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 14 2010,15:40) Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 14 2010,10:51)   Quote Supposing research were to find that societies that lived by the Golden Rule were, on balance, healthier and happier than those that followed a more selfish morality such as Greed is Good.  Would that tend to confirm Christianity? Never mind Christianity; what would that result say about the Ferengi culture?  :p What, indeed? I'm all ears. Let's not trek off on another pun-run, as we klingon to the most tenuous similarities. We should be more enterprising, end this phaser of our commentary (stunning as it is) and warp the dialogue into something more enterprising. Bonus: How many ears does Mr. Spock have? -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Henry J Posts: 5787 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,16:46    That sounds logical.

JLT Posts: 740 Joined: Jan. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,17:17    Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 14 2010,22:43) Bonus: How many ears does Mr. Spock have? Is that a trek question? ETA: Please stand back, German attempts a pun. -------------- "Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...] Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,19:50    Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 14 2010,17:43) Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 14 2010,15:40)   Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 14 2010,10:51)     Quote Supposing research were to find that societies that lived by the Golden Rule were, on balance, healthier and happier than those that followed a more selfish morality such as Greed is Good.  Would that tend to confirm Christianity? Never mind Christianity; what would that result say about the Ferengi culture?  :p What, indeed? I'm all ears. Let's not trek off on another pun-run, as we klingon to the most tenuous similarities. We should be more enterprising, end this phaser of our commentary (stunning as it is) and warp the dialogue into something more enterprising. No bones about it: make it so. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,20:55    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 14 2010,17:50) Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 14 2010,17:43)   Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 14 2010,15:40)     Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 14 2010,10:51)       Quote Supposing research were to find that societies that lived by the Golden Rule were, on balance, healthier and happier than those that followed a more selfish morality such as Greed is Good.  Would that tend to confirm Christianity? Never mind Christianity; what would that result say about the Ferengi culture?  :p What, indeed? I'm all ears. Let's not trek off on another pun-run, as we klingon to the most tenuous similarities. We should be more enterprising, end this phaser of our commentary (stunning as it is) and warp the dialogue into something more enterprising. No bones about it: make it so. Dammit, Janet, I'm only a doctor, Jim. Opps, I slipped into a timewarp again. Edited by Dr.GH on Oct. 14 2010,18:57 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Seversky Posts: 442 Joined: June 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,20:56    Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 14 2010,16:43) Bonus: How many ears does Mr. Spock have? Two point two

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,21:50    Quote (Seversky @ Oct. 14 2010,20:56) Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 14 2010,16:43) Bonus: How many ears does Mr. Spock have? Two point two No. 3. His left ear His right ear and... -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Henry J Posts: 5787 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,22:00    Quote Bonus: How many ears does Mr. Spock have? And were they intelligently designed? Henry

Seversky Posts: 442 Joined: June 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2010,14:02    Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 14 2010,21:50)   Quote (Seversky @ Oct. 14 2010,20:56)     Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 14 2010,16:43) Bonus: How many ears does Mr. Spock have? Two point two No. 3. His left ear His right ear and... Almost. It should read His right ear His left ear And this 'ere: and... Except the link don't work.

Henry J Posts: 5787 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2010,14:12    To ear is human, after all. Or is it Vulcan?

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2010,14:51    Davey Crocket had 3; A left ear, a right ear, and a wild front ear. PS: I guess it is a generational thing. Edited by Dr.GH on Oct. 15 2010,12:52 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2010,07:59    For a bit of fun with Star Trek: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khrpy4V0-U4 but that joke's as old as the hills Richard.

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2010,17:47    Apparently, AiG are going to annouce plans for a theme park soon: http://www.wlwt.com/entertainment/25852269/detail.html

Henry J Posts: 5787 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2010,20:37    Theme park? Is there a modern stone age family involved here? Henry

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2010,10:51    The big announcement: http://www.answersingenesis.org/article....release   Quote Frankfort, Ky. (Dec. 1, 2010)—Kentucky Governor Steve Beshear today joined the Ark Encounter LLC to announce the planned construction of a full-scale Noah’s Ark tourist attraction in northern Kentucky. Partnering with the Ark Encounter is Answers in Genesis, which is most widely known for its high-tech and popular Creation Museum in Petersburg, Kentucky. “We are excited to join with the Ark Encounter group as it seeks to provide this unique, family friendly tourist attraction to the Commonwealth,” said Gov. Beshear. “Bringing new jobs to Kentucky is my top priority, and with the estimated 900 jobs this project will create, I am happy about the economic impact this project will have on the Northern Kentucky region.” The Ark Encounter is scheduled to open in spring 2014 in northern Kentucky. Multiple sites are being considered, although property in Grant County off I-75 is at the top of the list. A feasibility study conducted by the renowned America’s Research Group has indicated that the Ark Encounter may attract 1.6 million visitors in the first year and is expected to employ up to 900 full- and part-time staff. More today: http://www.answersingenesis.org/article....r-media   Quote FRANKFORT, Ky., Dec. 2, 2010—Kentucky Governor Steve Beshear and the Ark Encounter, LLC announced Wednesday plans for a major new tourist attraction in the Northern Kentucky region: a full-scale Noah’s Ark. Partnering with the Ark Encounter is Answers in Genesis, which is most widely known for its high-tech and well-attended Creation Museum in Petersburg, Ky. At a packed press conference, Gov. Beshear emphasized his commitment to bring jobs to Kentucky as a result of strengthening the language in the Tourism Development Act. “Make no mistake about it, this is a huge deal to Grant County, to northern Kentucky and to the entire Commonwealth. As I indicated earlier, we strengthened the Tourism Act to help us create jobs and attract visitors, which this project clearly does,” he said. Gov. Beshear also announced that the Ark Encounter had submitted all of the necessary applications to take advantage of the sales tax reimbursements offered for tourist attractions. He said this incentive in the Tourism Act is what drew the Ark Encounter LLC to Kentucky. “We are eager to work with Ark Encounter officials to make this exciting project happen, and we look forward to its completion,” he concluded. The Ark Encounter is scheduled to open in spring 2014, on about 800 acres off I-75 in Grant County, Ky., south of Cincinnati, Ohio. The land is under contract and the sale is expected to be finalized soon. The for-profit Ark Encounter project will be privately funded, with an estimated cost of $149.5 million. Noah’s Ark itself will be built at a cost of $24.5 million, which will come from donations through Answers in Genesis and its “Ark Pegs, Planks & Beams” program. The additional $125 million for the rest of the complex will be contributed by the for-profit LLC. Is Gov. Bashear a member of the Tea party or are they all nutty women ? Who on earth are the "for profit LLC". Is it some sort of government tourist quango ?

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2010,11:47    I guess there are now two questions? 1) Who is going to sue first for a First Amendment violation (you'd think a 300 cubit ark was a pretty obvious endorsement of one religion)? 2) If no one sues, then when will the first Muslim theme park open?  Complete with rental burkahs and those that don't bow when the bell rings get blown up.* * Yes, I'm being objectionable and stereotypical of the muslim religion.  deal with it. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2010,17:09    Oh, and according to Governer Bashear, there will be dinos on the ark; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....edded## or was that Mark who answered for him ? Does this guy not realize he's being played for a sucker by AiG big time ? As for the 900 jobs, aren't these only open to Christians who are YECs ?

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2010,18:30    More from Governer Beshear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zHposXmvu4&feature=related

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