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  Topic: Vox Day: Alpha Fail., Rich veins of untapped Tard< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2011,12:44   

The post opening the discussion does not look promising:
Quote
Whether science is self-correcting

It is said that science is self-correcting.  For to be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny, according to the Cosmologist.  And yet, it is also said that life itself is an error-correcting process, as well as an error-making one.  Since science is not entirely unrelated to life, this raises the obvious question of what the material differences distinguishing science from life and scientific self-correction from life's intrinsic error-correcting process might happen to be.

But let us be patient and attempt to limit ourselves to one issue at a time.  What is science and what distinguishes it from life?


So that's the starting question. What distinguishes science from life?

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If you are not:
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please Logout »

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2011,12:49   

Quote (olegt @ Jan. 15 2011,12:44)
So that's the starting question. What distinguishes science from life?

I'm not much of a philosopher, but I think it's pretty much the same thing that distinguishes science from double-hung windows and my sister's blue car.

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2011,13:36   

Quote (olegt @ Jan. 15 2011,12:44)
The post opening the discussion does not look promising:
Quote
Whether science is self-correcting

It is said that science is self-correcting.  For to be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny, according to the Cosmologist.  And yet, it is also said that life itself is an error-correcting process, as well as an error-making one.  Since science is not entirely unrelated to life, this raises the obvious question of what the material differences distinguishing science from life and scientific self-correction from life's intrinsic error-correcting process might happen to be.

But let us be patient and attempt to limit ourselves to one issue at a time.  What is science and what distinguishes it from life?


So that's the starting question. What distinguishes science from life?

42?

Science isn't alive?

Fine Corinthian Leather?

Vox has life, but not science, and has no understanding of either?

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
the_ignored



Posts: 50
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2011,17:09   

I gave him an email warning him to be careful of Vox's tricks:

 
Quote
I understand that you're going to be taking part in a debate on Vox Day's blog (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/01/science-champion-wanted.html)?




I'd be careful. He is not above twisting people's words just to take a shot at science or anything else that he doesn't like.




One such example was discussed here:

(http://www.wearesmrt.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=60057#p60057), in reference to Vox's post here:

(http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/07/science-vs-religion.html).


He thanked me in his reply and said that he'd be careful.  So far though, it's been clean over there he says.

  
the_ignored



Posts: 50
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2011,21:35   

Hoo boy.  Here we go again.  When Beale isn't bragging about how smart he is, he's going on about how stupid atheists are.

Does that asshole not know the meaning of the words ad hom?

Even funnier, for that little bit of theistic social autism, he links to an "unbiased" outside source.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,14:54   

PZ should write a poem about butchering baby fetuses...I'm sure he'd be great at it.  

<shudders>  

???

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,15:09   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,12:54)
PZ should write a poem about butchering baby fetuses...I'm sure he'd be great at it.  

<shudders>  

???

Baby fetuses?  As opposed to what?  Fully-grown fetuses?  Elderly ones?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,15:09   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,14:54)
PZ should write a poem about butchering baby fetuses...I'm sure he'd be great at it.  

<shudders>  

???

Go tell him at Pharyngula.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,15:40   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,12:54)
PZ should write a poem about butchering baby fetuses

There was a baby fetus named Fred
Who was butchered by naughty P.Zed
Vox Day said "The fiend!"
FTK said "He's teh mean!"
But he ate it with butter and bread.


Edited for speakers of American.  And because I like editing.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,15:54   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 21 2011,15:40)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,12:54)
PZ should write a poem about butchering baby fetuses

There was a baby fetus named Fred
Who was butchered by naughty P.Zed
Vox Day said "The fiend!"
FTK said "He's teh mean!"
But he ate it with butter and bread.

There oughta be a law against that kinda thing!  

Babies are high enough in cholesterol by themselves. Slathering them in butter is just inviting a heart attack.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,16:01   

lol...u people are nuts.  

I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,16:10   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
lol...u people are nuts.  

I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.

For anyone new to the world of FtK, "dissent" translates into English as "Overwhelming creepiness"

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,16:13   

Rich writes over at Vox's blog:

 
Quote
"If an organism is capable of independent existence, it is alive. (This is why abortion of a fetus is not killing, it is not alive)"


Gawd.....are u serious?  Hell, a 3 yr old can't even exist independently.  Leave them alone and unless they are *very* lucky, they'll perish without support of adults.  What about the handicapped, elderly, etc., etc..  You did hear about the Philadelphia abortionist in the news the other day?  He killed serveral after delivery by putting a scissors in their necks.  Now, PZ would have no problem with this, but I HOPE that you would Rich.  You need to think, boy.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,16:26   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Jan. 21 2011,16:10)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
lol...u people are nuts.  

I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.

For anyone new to the world of FtK, "dissent" translates into English as "Overwhelming creepiness"

lol..and that is a complement coming from PZ.  His description of creepy is anyone elses description of normal, moral human being.  I think it's great being on his shit list.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,16:28   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:13)
Rich writes over at Vox's blog:

 
Quote
"If an organism is capable of independent existence, it is alive. (This is why abortion of a fetus is not killing, it is not alive)"


Gawd.....are u serious?  Hell, a 3 yr old can't even exist independently.  Leave them alone and unless they are *very* lucky, they'll perish without support of adults.  What about the handicapped, elderly, etc., etc..  You did hear about the Philadelphia abortionist in the news the other day?  He killed serveral after delivery by putting a scissors in their necks.  Now, PZ would have no problem with this, but I HOPE that you would Rich.  You need to think, boy.

1.. that's a bit of a quote mine
2.. they're not my words, I was quoting someone else.


Old habbits die hard, eh FtK?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,16:44   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:13)
Leave them alone and unless they are *very* lucky, they'll perish without support of adults.

What level of luck is that?

Tornado in a junkyard luck?

Searching for proteins and finding one at random luck?

Coming up with a complex entity all at once all at random level of luck?

Global flood not killing everything level of luck?

Pah.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,16:47   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,14:13)
You need to think, boy.

Wow.  Told to think by FTK.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,16:50   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 21 2011,16:47)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,14:13)
You need to think, boy.

Wow.  Told to think by FTK.



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,16:51   

Aaahh!!!

After Mabuse, JoeG, IBIG and all, FTK is like a brease of fresh sewer-scented air!

I almost missed her...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,16:57   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 21 2011,16:51)
Aaahh!!!

After Mabuse, JoeG, IBIG and all, FTK is like a brease of fresh sewer-scented air!

I almost missed her...

Not to worry.  She'll flounce out again before long and you can try to start missing her all over again.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,17:53   

At Weasel Zippers

I gotta believe PZ posts this kind of shit for attention...I can't believe anyone can actually be as vile as he is.  But, then even posting it for attention is sick beyond belief.

"meat".....good Lord, he needs his head examined.  On the bright side though, from what I've read, Skatje has somewhat changed her stance on abortion. From hard core leftist thinking to actually having a heart about the issue.  Yeah for Skatje!  Maybe she should have left the nest a long time ago.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,18:26   

Ahh the dog returneth to its vomit eh?

How have you been FTK?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,18:27   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,17:53)
But, then even posting it for attention is sick beyond belief.

Would you say it was more or less sick then him being sent the images in the first place?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,18:29   

Ah, a flounce is needed!

You're welcome.

1.  Is it okay for ID proponents to post personal information of the internet?   NO

2.  Do you think that Wes and/or steve would not remove your personal information from the board if someone posted it?  
No, I believe they would....that is why I was giving them the warning that someone may be listing personal information about me.


3.  Do you think that the Baylor curators and other officials post their home addresses and phone numbers to the internet?   I have not checked into that so I do not know.  I would assume that most do not.

4.  Why re you back posting here at AtBC?   I believe I answered that on this page or the last page.  checking the previous 3 pages, there is no answer from Ftk as regards this question.  There are however, many complaints about having to answer questions and the ridiculous expectations of such. –blipey

5.  How does Behe know what is in a group of books without ever having read the books?   !!! This question is ridiculous.  Obviously, he wouldn't, and I'd have to ask Behe if he was every allowed to go through every book and article one by one and make two separate piles of what he had and had not read.  But, I tried desperately to explain in an earlier discussion that just because we have theories about how something *may have* occurred, that does not mean that all the questions have been answered nor should they be regarded as "fact". I’m counting this one as answered because of the first sentence “obviously, he wouldn’t”.  That being said, the commentary after that phrase proves that she’ll never be able to answer question 6.  perhaps this is why she stopped answering questions. –blipey

6.  What is the point of the Behe/unread books discussion?

7.  According to ID Theory, how did the immune system develop?

8.  What is gained by jettisoning ToE and saying God did it?

9.  In the light of a science teacher teaching that the study of beetles is not a scientific effort and possibly that spiders evolved from insects (if evolution were true), how is ID theory driving kids toward science?

10. Why don't IDers pursue RESEARCH GRANTS, from the Templeton Foundation, for example?

11. Are you afraid to examine the sequence evidence for ToE?

11A.  Added.  Do you understand what sequence evidence is?

12. Where did Albatrossity2 claim that his students were religious freaks?

12A.  Added.  Where did blipey claim that his nephew's teacher was "a source of evil"?

13. Why don't IDers publish in PCID?

14. Why hasn't PCID been published in over two years?

15. Do you believe that Darwinists have kept PCID from being published?

16. How?

17. Can ID be called a theory when it hasn't made even one prediction?

18. Yes or no: ID wouldn't benefit from publishing any articles, anywhere.

19. Yes or no: Your children should be taught the historical insights of the Bhagavad Gita?

20. What sort of Waterloo can we look forward to on February 8, 2008? Nebraska banned the electric chair as the sole method of execution.  Did anything else happen?

Interesting side note. Just came across this comment back on page 102 where you berate people for not having read the pertinent books.  Which begs several more questions I'll put here.  Why is reading material important?  Do you think it might have been important for Behe to read some books before commenting on them?  Have you read the textbook that Albatrossity2 sent you?  Have you got that list of peer reviewed articles you've read ready to go?  Are you seriously arguing that we should read books and that IDers don't have to?

21. What are IDers doing to garner respect?

22. Given that you believe ID is science because of "design inference", why is ToE not science because all it has is inference?

23. Can any human being know what is contained in a book without having read the book?

24. If everyone died in the Flood, who wrote all the different stories down?

25. What year was the Flood over? 2300 BC, answer provided for Ftk by blipey

26. What year was the height of the Egyptian Empire? 2030 BC, answer provided by blipey

27. What was the population of the world in that year? 30,000,000, answer provided by blipey

28. How did 8 people (6 really) make that many people?


29. Is Dembski a creationist?

30. How would monogamous gays destroy heterosexual marriage?

31. How did Koalas get from Ararat to Australia?

32. Do you believe that the FLOOD is a scientifically tenable idea?  yes

33. Are the people who run Baylor Darwin Police?

34. Are those same people Baptist?

35. What does this mean?

36. Given that HIV cannot have evolved (Behe), which of the 8 (6 really) people on the ark were carrying HIV?

37. There are at least 40 distinct STDs. Were they distributed evenly among the passengers on Noah's ark, or was there like one Ultra-skank who had all 40?

38. Do you think that gravity is “just a theory” and therefore should be “taught critically” (to use the ID phrase)?

39. If not, what makes the details we don’t know about gravity different from the details we don’t know about evolution?

40. Do you believe Common Descent = Common Design?

41. Do you believe that Macroevolution = (not observed so did not happen)?

42. Despite the documented evidence, do you believe that macroevolution is based solely on historical inference?

43. Can you define macroevolution (in your own words)?

44. What evidence would confirm this?

45. Did God just make it look like the horse evolved, but in fact tinkered with the design along the way?

46.  Is the horse the only thing that evolved, but everything else is designed?

47. Given your statement that the idea of the Geologic Column was introduced by Darwinists after 1860, FtK, were the "periods" and "eras" added after 1860 "to fit the evolutionary theory"?

48. Or, since the early 19th century work by Smith, Cuvier, et al. led to the identification of the Geological Column in the 1820’s, were they (periods and eras) devised by creationists before 1860 to fit the evidence?

49.  Why is the Cambrian Explosion a problem for the Theory of Evolution?

50.  Did the Cambrian Explosion occur?

51.  If yes, can Walt Brown’s Hydroplate Theory still be valid?

edited for the grammars

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,18:39   

Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
14. Why hasn't PCID been published in over twofive years?

Fixed that for you.
Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
21. What are IDers doing to garner respect?

See 14.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,18:43   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 21 2011,18:39)
Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
14. Why hasn't PCID been published in over twofive years?

Fixed that for you.
 
Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
21. What are IDers doing to garner respect?

See 14.

I was contemplating that change, but thought I'd let it ride.  It subtly raises the point that not only could FTK not answer the questions when originally posed, but that over the next 3 years, this guardian of education hasn't bothered to learn anything.  Or even research anything.  Or be curious about anything.  Education indeed.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
MadPanda, FCD



Posts: 267
Joined: Nov. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,18:48   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.

The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD

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"No matter how ridiculous the internet tough guy, a thorough mocking is more effective than a swift kick to the gentleman vegetables with a hobnailed boot" --Louis

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,18:56   

Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:43)
Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 21 2011,18:39)
 
Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
14. Why hasn't PCID been published in over twofive years?

Fixed that for you.
   
Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
21. What are IDers doing to garner respect?

See 14.

I was contemplating that change, but thought I'd let it ride.  It subtly raises the point that not only could FTK not answer the questions when originally posed, but that over the next 3 years, this guardian of education hasn't bothered to learn anything.  Or even research anything.  Or be curious about anything.  Education indeed.

I thought it was worth pointing out for relative newcomers who may not know the back-story of FTK and/or PCID.  I did it for the kids.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2011,19:01   

Well played, sir; well played.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
the_ignored



Posts: 50
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 22 2011,10:17   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,17:53)
At Weasel Zippers

I gotta believe PZ posts this kind of shit for attention...I can't believe anyone can actually be as vile as he is.  But, then even posting it for attention is sick beyond belief.

"meat".....good Lord, he needs his head examined.  On the bright side though, from what I've read, Skatje has somewhat changed her stance on abortion. From hard core leftist thinking to actually having a heart about the issue.  Yeah for Skatje!  Maybe she should have left the nest a long time ago.

Let me guess:  You're one of those evangelicals who has no problem with the killing of pregnant women and babies as ordered by your god in the OT, nor with any spontaneous abortions that happen now, right?

Even Myers, as "vile" as you say he is, would not ever do anything like that.

Yet you still call yourself "pro-life"?

If I'm wrong about the above please let me know so that I may apologize.

  
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