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stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2007,22:00   

Most people--even most scientists--have a terrible understanding of the philosophy of science. Among non-philosophers, the best you find is somebody who maybe knows a little Popper or something. I'm a layman in those matters too, so rather than elaborate on my position that String Theory is part of science and ID is not, I emailed a guy I know who is a philosopher of science at a respected university. I'll paraphrase my questions, but quote in full his response:

Me:    
Quote

Take a look at this conversation about ID and String Theory. What do you think.


Him:    
Quote

Steve, you are stepping in deep, very cold, and very dank waters.

In public, when trying to deal with soundbite science, it is
worthwhile saying something like "science is testable", but what that
means is not easy to describe, let alone define. There is no such
thing as a universal scientific method or procedure. Some science is
testable, and some isn't. Some science is empirical and some
(theoretical cosmology) isn't. Some science is quantifiable, some isn't.

In philosophy there's a thing known as a "family resemblance
predicate" in which something is a member of a family of things if it
exhibits *most* of the properties of that group, but not necessarily
all. Science is like that. ID fails to be science for many reasons,
not least being the lack of an active research program and a failure
to discriminate its explanation from one without ID involving only
selectionist explanations. But there's no simple knockdown criterion
for excluding it, and in fact, at one time ID was an active research
program. Granted, that was in the 17th and 18th centuries, but that
only goes to show that what counts as science *at a particular
moment* is relative to the past history and present activities of
science.

So, you are right in that "science is what scientists do", but
there's more to the story than that. Science is (FRPishly) empirical,
explanatory, theoretical, active, historically related cognitive
activities. It is partly political, for it is done by humans, and
they are paolitical animals. It is partly social, for humans are
social animals. But it is also engagement with *nature*, the parts of
the world that aren't us, and *that* is where ID fails - it doesn't
engage with nature, it doesn't do *research*. It just takes an
apriori view, and trawls for ways to make that view seem scientific.

The motto of the Royal Society - the first such society in the world
- is Nullius in verba" - nothing in words. The motto of the ID crowd
is "Omnia in verba" - it's all in the words.


Me:
 
Quote
Would you say String Theory qualifies as science? Not a theory, not hypotheses, but simply as a part of science?


Him:
 
Quote
String Theory sits uncomfortably at the edge. It is clearly a
progressive research program in Lakatos' sense, but it has no
empirical consequences at present, so it is at best a conceptual
program only. It is within science, but if it doesn't make any
progress, eventually it will be abandoned. So it is the best example
of "science is what scientists do" because if scientists stop working
on it, it will cease to be part of science just in virtue of that fact.


PS - the question that's really been on my mind tonight is, if you're comfortable with pointers, comfortable with inheritance, and comfortable with templates, are you able to start coding C++ professionally? Or are there yet-unknown levels of difficulty or abstraction which demand more study before turning pro?

   
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5287
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2007,22:33   

Sorry for the interruption guys, but I just had to share this.  I took Alan Fox up on his invitation to visit his blog and listen to everyone's favorite telephone sanitizer, Joe Gallien, plug Dembski's Explanatory Filter.  JG also cited the bacteria flagellum EF example that Dembski tried to do in No Free Lunch.

I pointed out the obvious flaws in Dembski's assumptions (as have many others over the years) the biggest being that Dembski computes the probabilities based on all the proteins spontaneously and simultaneously appearing, instead of via a long-term positive feedback method as posited by evolutionary theory.  The following exchange took place

   
Quote
OA:  Finally, Dembski’s calculations also make the erroneous assumption that all the proteins had to assemble simultaneously from scratch – the technical term is a discrete combinational object. It is well know (except to Dembski, apparently) that evolution works as a positive feedback loop, an iterative process using existing structures and materials and adding/modifying them in each subsequent generation. As such, any calculations that assume an “all at once” formation are hopelessly flawed. A simple example is poker – the odds of getting 3 of a kind is much greater playing draw poker (with the positive feedback provided by the hold/discard) than in a straight 5 card deal.

JoeG:  you are misrepresenting DCO.

OA:  Did Dembski at any time in his calculations take into account the iterative, positive feedback nature of evolving systems? :Yes or No.

JoeG: He says he treats chance as a combo of chance and necessity. So that would be a Yes.

OA:  Bullshit Joe. Show me in the actual calculations where Dembski takes into account any sort of feedback when coming up with his values.

JoeG:  Umm he does it with a "1" in the place of probability. When someone multiplies something by "1" it stays the same and most times the "1" is not included in the final equation.


There you have it folks.  According to Joe 'I'll beat you up' Gallien, in ID theory it is possible to model a complex long-term feedback system by multiplying the terms by 1.   :O  :O  :O

I'm tellin' ya folks, you just can't make up sh*t this funny. : :p

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2007,22:47   

Quote
the question that's really been on my mind tonight is, if you're comfortable with pointers, comfortable with inheritance, and comfortable with templates, are you able to start coding C++ professionally? Or are there yet-unknown levels of difficulty or abstraction which demand more study before turning pro?


Just make sure your deallocations exactly match your allocations. ;)
If a class destructor is missing a deallocation, the machine can quickly run out of available memory.
If something deallocates something twice, it can make a real mess of things.

Also, I'm not sure that "comfort" is the right criteria there.

Henry

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2007,22:58   

Re "in ID theory it is possible to model a complex long-term feedback system by [b]multiplying the terms by 1."

Sort of a multiplicative identity crisis?

Henry

  
jujuquisp



Posts: 129
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,02:04   

I wonder what post Dumbski is trying to drive off of the front page at UD with his serial blogging.  He is definitely the master of cut and paste with no actual substance from himself. Also, does anyone else think this Lurker guy is a mole planted by us?:
 
Quote


2

Lurker

02/06/2007

12:20 am

If life was created by neo-Darwinian evolution, then who/what created neo-Darwinian evolution? What good is this theory if we don’t know who/what caused it?


vpr bites:



Quote


3

vpr

02/06/2007

2:48 am

Lurker you ask a question I’ve been thinking about for a long time. What drives NS. Is it a force or instinct. If it’s instinct, who programmed the organism with this capability. If you take it back to the first life, Why would it want to life? Why would it want to survive? There’s a major gap here that’s just glossed over by just so stories.


http://www.uncommondescent.com/archives/2027#comments

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,05:05   

VPR
Quote
Lurker you ask a question I’ve been thinking about for a long time. What drives NS. Is it a force or instinct. If it’s instinct, who programmed the organism with this capability. If you take it back to the first life, Why would it want to life? Why would it want to survive? There’s a major gap here that’s just glossed over by just so stories.


What drives NS?

The Great Driver in the sky (who we can't mention, or say how he fast 'egos, what music he listens to, what tyres he uses, where he gets it cleaned) we can say that he was a he and everyone knows he was jezuses daddy.


Who programmed the organism?

The Great Instinct  Programmer (who we can't mention, or say how he did it, what pseudocode, interpreter, compiler or target processing unit he used) we can say that he was a he and everyone knows he was jezuses daddy.

Why did it want to live?

It didn't, it had no wants, it was given a prod by the Great Cattle Prod in the sky (who we can't mention, or say why he did it, what batteries, high voltage generator or what color  unit he used) we can say that he was a he and everyone knows he was jezuses daddy.

Why would it want to survive?

It didn't, it died when it least expected it.

There’s a major gap here that’s just glossed over by just so stories.

Ah the gap of the glosses; a superficially or deceptively attractive god of the gaps.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
jujuquisp



Posts: 129
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,06:28   

Can anyone here decipher O'Leary's newest post at UD?
Quote
6 February 2007
O’Leary remains skeptical: Does Richard Dawkins really exist?


I cannot figure out what the f*ck she is getting at or what her point is.  I've been up all night, so that might be part of the problem.  Is it supposed to be lightly comedic?  Is it supposed to be a witty satire?  Is it a violent verbal assault?  What is it?  What does it mean?  Do I need to ingest shrooms to understand it?

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,07:38   

Quote (jujuquisp @ Feb. 06 2007,06:28)
Can anyone here decipher O'Leary's newest post at UD?
Quote
6 February 2007
O’Leary remains skeptical: Does Richard Dawkins really exist?


I cannot figure out what the f*ck she is getting at or what her point is.  I've been up all night, so that might be part of the problem.  Is it supposed to be lightly comedic?  Is it supposed to be a witty satire?  Is it a violent verbal assault?  What is it?  What does it mean?  Do I need to ingest shrooms to understand it?

That ain't terribly unusual, juju.  Half the time I think she doesn't even know her own point.

She is without exception the single worst "writer" on the planet.  She's a journalist about the same way Larry's a lawyer or Dembski's "The Isaac Newton of Information Theory".

Just scratch your head and laugh.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
heddle



Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,08:28   

Steviepinhead,

No, I heard about it as a postdoc at the University of Illinois. However, the only thing preventing string theory from being taught in high school is that it is too difficult. For all I know, the simple idea of cosmic strings might be mentioned in high school physics—I certainly wouldn’t have a problem with that.

SteveS,

I think your philosopher makes some valid points. When String Theory first appeared, as indeed is the case (but to a far lesser degree) with other theories, there may be no immediate concept for testing. All theories, especially those as promising and interesting as String Theory, are given a honeymoon period. No theory, however, has been allowed to go on as long as ST without making a connection to experiment. We now have had enough time pass that people have been tenured into ST slots and have spent the first half of their careers doing something that has never been put to the test. That is unprecedented, and it came at the expense of those who chose more traditional paths in high energy physics theory. (Not me, this is not bitterness, my thesis was in nuclear or “medium energy” theory.) If ST dies for lack of contact with experiment, it will be an ignominious death. It will not be science as usual—where a theory can still more-or-less hold its head high if it died because it made predictions that were invalidated by experimental data.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,08:34   

How come WAD and DaveScott haven't commented on the Templeton Foundation blasting them?  

http://www.latimes.com/busines....et=true

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,08:50   

Quote (heddle @ Feb. 05 2007,13:30)
Phonon,

Before you declare a victory for String Theory you might want to do a bit more than just google the topic. The claim for testing String Theory is patently false —the tests described would only set limits on Lorentz invariance, unitarity, and analyticity. String theory is by no means the only theory that has such general properties.

For more information see Peter Woit’s article.

String theory, is so far, not testable in the conventional manner of making a positive prediction—the same thing I’ve been hammering ID about.  The LHC turning on does not change that. I hope some day String Theory is testable--but as this moment it does not actually qualify as science--it is mathematics only.

I never claimed anything that the article didn't claim. Even the article says that the test wouldn't be a test FOR string theory, just a possible falsification of it. But, if the test failed, then a lot of other theory would also be falsified. I think a good chunk of gauge theory would die along with string theory, but I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to really claim much.

The central tenets of ID can't really even be falsified in this manner.

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,08:58   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 06 2007,16:34)
How come WAD and DaveScott haven't commented on the Templeton Foundation blasting them?  

http://www.latimes.com/busines....et=true

I don't know ...lets ask them.....

HEY HOMO WTF'S UP WITH YOU IGNORING THIS

"Testing the role of trust and values in financial decisions" (Jan. 21) incorrectly describes the John Templeton Foundation as having been an early supporter of the political movement known as "intelligent design."


HOO AHH SEMPER TEMPLETON

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,09:24   

Just to emphasise how small a world this is, I found Dave Scot talking about his dieting techniques here:

http://www.blogger.com/comment....0201773

Its a blog run by "For the kids", a well known anti-evolution entity.
Also on the same thread is someone calling themselves "Sparky", who has been playing in a pro-ID blog in the UK, and making themselves look a bit foolish.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,10:09   

Quote
Just to emphasise how small a world this is, I found Dave Scot talking about his dieting techniques here:


But I thought he was 225 lbs of lean fighting machine?  How could he let himself go like that--needing to lose 40 lbs???  Maybe he should put his mushrooms in a location 2 miles away from his boat and walk there every day to check on them.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,10:21   

Quote (guthrie @ Feb. 06 2007,09:24)
Just to emphasise how small a world this is, I found Dave Scot talking about his dieting techniques here:

http://www.blogger.com/comment....0201773

Its a blog run by "For the kids", a well known anti-evolution entity.
Also on the same thread is someone calling themselves "Sparky", who has been playing in a pro-ID blog in the UK, and making themselves look a bit foolish.

Thanks For The Link... I think...

"aka...Forthekids said...
Oh - my - gosh...it's really davescot.

Far....out!"

Jeebus, these two need to get a room!  What an ugly picture... Hippos in rut... EEEEEEEWWWW!

I just can't decide which picture is worse - Kristine's ugly sick perverted, dominatrix lust for WAD, or FTK's ugly hippo - jelly donut -lust for DaveScott.  

Maybe someone over at UD can design a filter that will help with this?

Kristine? Put down that "Flagellum Whip"... a little help maybe?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,10:23   

Hey, nice to see that the Templeton Foundation has joined the Great Atheistic Conspiracy Kiss (GACK). Good goin'.

I'll make a prediction, folks: Some people are going to be very sorry that they took this particular view. As far as I'm concerned, this is worse than the evolution denial. This is akin to President Reagan ignoring the AIDS crisis that is now engulfing Africa (and on a smaller scale, to the HIV-denialists like Wells ignoring the Tripoli Six).

If denial of global warming is how people want to be known, that is how they'll go out. As for me, I gave up driving 20 years ago for a reason and no, that doesn't mean friends drive me around. I want to be known for stating that evolutionary theory will still be here fifty years from now and that denial of global warming will be seen as the modern equivalent of refusing to look through Galileo's telescope. Here I stand, and let the chips fall.

(And when give up your car in your twenties, you don't gain weight in the first place and can eat like a hog.)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,11:34   

Quote (blipey @ Feb. 06 2007,10:09)
Quote
Just to emphasise how small a world this is, I found Dave Scot talking about his dieting techniques here:


But I thought he was 225 lbs of lean fighting machine?  How could he let himself go like that--needing to lose 40 lbs???  Maybe he should put his mushrooms in a location 2 miles away from his boat and walk there every day to check on them.

He's just 'insulating' up ready for global cooling.  ???

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,13:04   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 06 2007,11:34)
 
Quote (blipey @ Feb. 06 2007,10:09)
   
Quote
Just to emphasise how small a world this is, I found Dave Scot talking about his dieting techniques here:


But I thought he was 225 lbs of lean fighting machine?  How could he let himself go like that--needing to lose 40 lbs???  Maybe he should put his mushrooms in a location 2 miles away from his boat and walk there every day to check on them.

He's just 'insulating' up ready for global cooling.  ???

I looked at the "Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide" thread. *rubs eyes*.
bFast said    
Quote
What frustrates me is the argument from authority — I have such and such a degree from such and such an institiution, I have such and such qualifications, these other guys agree with me and they have their credentials. As with the question of evolution, I would prefer to see actual data, actual evidence.

Ds said    
Quote
If you want the data just go here and follow the links. None of you will of course. Facts don’t get in the way of preconceived opinions on global warming.

And this is DS talking to the UD crowd! That man loves standing alone!
Russ Said
 
Quote
I think Dave Scott’s post serves the role of “character witness” testifying on the credibility of science in it’s politicized state. If examples can be shown of science being used to advance the public policy agenda of extreme environmentalists, then it opens the door to skepticism when science is used to advance materialist philosophy in the evolotion/design debate.

*rubs eyes again*
Is it parody or for real?

edit: I followed the links and you get to this pdf file. DS said to find the Data that supports him, follow the links. The Data (pdf) that "supports him" has the following chapter headings:
SPEECHES BY SENATOR INHOFE
Hot & Cold Media Spin: A Challenge To Journalists Who Cover Global Warming
America Reacts To Speech Debunking Media Global Warming Alarmism
Bringing Integrity Back to the IPCC Process

EPW MAJORITY PRESS RELEASES
Renowned Scientist Defects From Belief In Global Warming –
Caps Year Of Vindication For Skeptics
Inhofe Responds To Critical New York Times Editorial
Inhofe Says NAS Report Reaffirms ‘Hockey Stick’ Is Broken
Inhofe Expresses Concerns Over IPCC’S Lack of Objectivity In Letter To Chairman Pachauri

and then some "Facts of the day" and a load more links to "Related articles" in The San Drancisco Chorincle et al.

Fine, believe or not as you like about global warming and carbon dixoide, however I do not see the DATA that DS promised us if we followed his link! I see alot of people talkin about the data, but no actual data. I suppose that's the standard MO of ID anyway, so no surprise there - who cares what the data says , they all know goddit.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,13:05   

In Which Tyler DiPietro Reads Some Salvador Cordova, and Hits the Roof.

   
jujuquisp



Posts: 129
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,13:19   

TroutMac chimes in with some genius-level questions:
Quote
2

TRoutMac

02/06/2007

1:53 pm

I have a few questions.

If we were to successfully reduce our output of CO2, would this NOT have a negative impact on plant life? Animals consume oxygen, and produce CO2. Plants consume CO2 and produce oxygen. If there is less CO2 available to plants then does it not follow that there would be less oxygen available to humans?

Wouldn’t Intelligent Design theory predict that the Earth, as a system, would have been designed with the capacity to absorb or otherwise deal with whatever mankind (or even nature itself) produces?

Isn’t fear over global warming much more compatible with a naturalist/Darwinist paradigm than an Intelligent Design paradigm?


In other words, "Darwinists" anticipate potential problems and try to deal with them and ID theorists don't need to worry about anything or do anything because Mother Gaia will take care of it all anyway.  That's an interesting and new insight into the ID thought process that I didn't see before.  I say, give them their own country and let them rot.

Quote
4

TRoutMac

02/06/2007

1:59 pm

One more question:

Is mankind part of nature, or isn’t he? I can’t help but think that the global warming crowd has been duped into thinking that man is an interloper, like man was dropped into nature as an outsider, that nature never had or never will have the capacity to support or tolerate mankind. If mankind is part of nature, then even from a secular/Darwinist perspective, the whole idea that we should be freaked out about global warming seems utterly ridiculous to me.


TroutMac is thinking way too hard and I'm very afraid that his neurons will exhaust themselves with cognitive overload.  Hey, tone it down a notch to our level and relax that grey matter so that we can follow along with your profound observations, TroutMac.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,13:39   

Quote (jujuquisp @ Feb. 06 2007,14:19)
TroutMac chimes in with some genius-level questions:
 
Quote
2

TRoutMac

02/06/2007

1:53 pm

I have a few questions.

If we were to successfully reduce our output of CO2, would this NOT have a negative impact on plant life? Animals consume oxygen, and produce CO2. Plants consume CO2 and produce oxygen. If there is less CO2 available to plants then does it not follow that there would be less oxygen available to humans?

Wouldn’t Intelligent Design theory predict that the Earth, as a system, would have been designed with the capacity to absorb or otherwise deal with whatever mankind (or even nature itself) produces?

Isn’t fear over global warming much more compatible with a naturalist/Darwinist paradigm than an Intelligent Design paradigm?


In other words, "Darwinists" anticipate potential problems and try to deal with them and ID theorists don't need to worry about anything or do anything because Mother Gaia will take care of it all anyway.  That's an interesting and new insight into the ID thought process that I didn't see before.  I say, give them their own country and let them rot.

 
Quote
4

TRoutMac

02/06/2007

1:59 pm

One more question:

Is mankind part of nature, or isn’t he? I can’t help but think that the global warming crowd has been duped into thinking that man is an interloper, like man was dropped into nature as an outsider, that nature never had or never will have the capacity to support or tolerate mankind. If mankind is part of nature, then even from a secular/Darwinist perspective, the whole idea that we should be freaked out about global warming seems utterly ridiculous to me.


TroutMac is thinking way too hard and I'm very afraid that his neurons will exhaust themselves with cognitive overload.  Hey, tone it down a notch to our level and relax that grey matter so that we can follow along with your profound observations, TroutMac.

Good catch.

Looks like troutmac can't tell 'concentration' from 'rate of growth in concentration'.

And even if he didn't have that problem, CO2 is not generally a limiting factor in terrestrial plant growth. The big limiting factors (if memory serves me) are nitrogen, phosphorus, and water.

And aside from that, there's about 670 times as much oxygen in the atmosphere as carbon dioxide, so no, fluctuations in the carbon dioxide level aren't going to wildly drive the oxygen levels around through plant respiration.

In other words, Troutmac is about as edjumacated as your average Intelligent Design supporter.

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,13:56   

Quote
Inhofe Says NAS Report Reaffirms ‘Hockey Stick’ Is Broken

v's
Quote
Numerous myths regarding the so-called  "hockey stick" reconstruction of past temperatures, can be found on various non-peer reviewed websites, internet newsgroups and other non-scientific venues. The most widespread of these myths are debunked below:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=11

hmm.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,14:03   

Re "What good is this theory if we don’t know who/what caused it?"

Well, what good was the inverse square law of gravity before we knew what causes gravity? (Wait, we still don't really know what causes gravity, do we? So what good is general relativity? Well, except for being presumably better than major relativity or colonel relativity.)

Re "What drives NS?"

The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Re "Who programmed the organism?"

And was it done in Fortran, Cobol, C or C++, Prolog, Pascal, Assembler, or something else?

Re "I say, give them their own country and let them rot."

But their own country would still be on this planet. ;)

Henry

  
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 555
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,14:39   

Quote
If mankind is part of nature, then even from a secular/Darwinist perspective, the whole idea that we should be freaked out about global warming seems utterly ridiculous to me.

Like, totally.  From a secular/Darwinist perspective, why get "freaked out" about nuclear war?  Heck, if mankind is part of nature, so's the firestorm!  Why not just shoot yourself in the head?  It's all just part of nature, right?

Tard this massive and dense must have an event horizon; be careful not to get too close.

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"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
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"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
2ndclass



Posts: 182
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,14:49   

Quote (jujuquisp @ Feb. 06 2007,13:19)
In other words, "Darwinists" anticipate potential problems and try to deal with them and ID theorists don't need to worry about anything or do anything because Mother Gaia will take care of it all anyway.

Hey, at least Trout is willing to make an ID-based prediction, which is more than I can say for his cohorts.  Of course, if he's wrong, then humanity won't be around very long to rub it in his face, so he's not really going out on a limb.

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"I wasn't aware that classical physics had established a position on whether intelligent agents exercising free were constrained by 2LOT into increasing entropy." -DaveScot

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,14:58   

Dopderbeck on global warming:
 
Quote
dopderbeck: How can we be so arrogant as to think that we know what “natural levels” are? This just begs the question, again, of whether mankind is or is not part of nature, does it not?

C’mon Troutmac. We can be pretty darn sure what levels of CO2 plants need to flourish; and we can be pretty darn sure that such levels exist without human input, particularly that plants predate significant human contribution to global CO2 levels by at least millions of years. Your suggestion that cutting human CO2 emissions will somehow harm plant life is patently absurd.

I see two problems with Dopderbeck's reply:

1.  Troutmac is a confessed YEC, so any argument from millions-of-years-ism just ain't gonna fly.

2.  He is speaking articulately in opposition to Dave and, thus, is likely about to meet the banning stick.

I planted some life in your mother last night, homo.  You are outta here - DS

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,15:00   

Quote
If mankind is part of nature, then even from a secular/Darwinist perspective, the whole idea that we should be freaked out about global warming seems utterly ridiculous to me.

And there you have it, folks! Sums UD up for me. Nihilism in the name of "God." "The dinosaurs are extinct, so why shouldn't we be?" Hey, you go be extinct, doofus.

I guess that's what you think when you have no moral compass within yourself. (Hmm?)

And then there's Sal--evolution love him--to sweeten my mood. The eternal golden brain, blogged again. ;)  Get some Brain-o to unblog that blog.

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,15:05   

Quote
"I say, give them their own country and let them rot."


ahh, last bastion of the ignoramus.

personally, my response to this is to ask for relocation costs.

funny, if they really hate science and logic that much, shouldn't they be willing to fork over a few bucks to send me packing?

Hey luddites:

I could use about 5 grand for relocation costs to get me out of YOUR country.

put up or shut up, as the saying goes.

Hey, I know!  Dave (Dell made me a millionaire) Springerbot is rich, why don't you get 'ol Davey to spring?

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,15:09   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 06 2007,15:05)
Quote
"I say, give them their own country and let them rot."


ahh, last bastion of the ignoramus.

personally, my response to this is to ask for relocation costs.

funny, if they really hate science and logic that much, shouldn't they be willing to fork over a few bucks to send me packing?

Hey luddites:

I could use about 5 grand for relocation costs to get me out of YOUR country.

put up or shut up, as the saying goes.

Hey, I know!  Dave (Dell made me a millionaire) Springerbot is rich, why don't you get 'ol Davey to spring?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38571

Please, kids, pack up your houseboats and go.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2007,15:46   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 06 2007,16:09)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38571

Please, kids, pack up your houseboats and go.

I would love to see Christian Exodus become really successful. Nothing would make me happier than for 10 million theocrat freakazoids to both remove themselves from our political system, and take the worst state in the union off our hands. That would kill two birds with one stone. Probably wouldn't be the last thing they killed with stones, either.

Sadly, I don't think enough wackos will bother.

   
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