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Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,22:08    When I was a field ethnographer (my dissertation in fact), I made it a incontrovertible rule to never have anything to do with the asshole missionaries that occasionally breezed through villages where I worked and lived.  I also did my best to avoid any entanglement with the magical/spiritualistic beliefs of my friends and neighbors. I was working on the very practical aspects of indigenous knowledge about geomineralogy by potters and the associated linguistics of general populations. Years later, I did return to some of the magico-religious issues in the villages I had lived in. Even later, I was a professor of medicine in psychiatry. This is just background to the following observations; Most disease is self-limited. Most people have a clear idea from personal experience what a dead person looks, and behaves like (they are very still until they stink). People will believe anything if it doesn't cost much, and has an occasional payback (food, warmth, sex). We are a "self programing machine" in which thinking changes how we think by changing how our brains are organized physically and chemically. Much of this happens in childhood. I, like a number of physicists who irritate the ..., well they irritate me, have been edging toward a sense that Plato was correct; our "reality" is a poor construct of a "real True™" reality. However, the very notion of science, and the supremacy of repeatable observation and hypothesis testing surpasses Plato and the rest of his Greek BFF. As we proceed, more of the fantastic fear filled Phantasms are disposed of finally.  (you more clever people should rewrite this) -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

RFJE Posts: 45 Joined: Feb. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,22:23    I read the rest of your posts, after Richard Simons.  You can let "my" thread  go to the bottom. I never got this point out as I was trying to absorb all your rebukes, insults and accusations. The whole crux is that the scientists were scientists until they entered into o-r-i-g-i-n-s.  Not all of them thank God. Some still believe the Psalms which say "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament his handywork." Yes they were still very intelligent, very educated, very enlightened perceptors. They still brought us wonderful breakthroughs and understanding of the natural  world. But they became anti-apostles, and anti-prophets and anti-christs (not the anti-christ, the scriptures teach there are anti-christs and THE anti-christ). Telling us there was no Adam and Eve, throwing out the Bible as a fable book.   Do we need any proof of this?  Just look in the prior pages.  Mocking and railing against the One who said "Father forgive them, they know not what they do."  Who told Peter as they took him to Pontius Pilate "Put your sword away, for could I not ask my father for twelve legions of angels." But instead he went to the cross to be ransom for our sin. And wouldn't some of you have been right there.  Well when you said  those things about Him directly you were---under His cross, saying just like the Pharisees, "If he is the son of God, let him come down from the cross and save himself."  ---If he is the son of God let him grow limbs on amputees. "Woe to those who call light darkness, and darkness light." Bottom line, if our common ancestor is not Adam and Eve then there is no sin, nor inherited sin nature in man, nor any need for redemption by Christ's blood.  So just live it up guys.  Everything's just wonderful.  This life is the only one.  But count me out. "For this know, that in the last days perilous times shall come.  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, no self control, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, HEADY, HIGHMINDED, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God...EVER LEARNING AND NEVER ABLE TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH...." II Tim. 3:1-4,7 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even TO THE TIME OF THE END: MANY SHALL RUN HERE AND THERE AND KNOWLEDGE SHALL BE INCREASED.  Daniel 12:4 There's alot more, but you won't believe what I just wrote.  But i believe one or two will.  The rest of you go do what you do.

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,22:50    Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,23:23) I read the rest of your posts, after Richard Simons.  You can let "my" thread  go to the bottom. I never got this point out as I was trying to absorb all your rebukes, insults and accusations. The whole crux is that the scientists were scientists until they entered into o-r-i-g-i-n-s.  Not all of them thank God. Some still believe the Psalms which say "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament his handywork." Yes they were still very intelligent, very educated, very enlightened perceptors. They still brought us wonderful breakthroughs and understanding of the natural  world. But they became anti-apostles, and anti-prophets and anti-christs (not the anti-christ, the scriptures teach there are anti-christs and THE anti-christ). Telling us there was no Adam and Eve, throwing out the Bible as a fable book.   Do we need any proof of this?  Just look in the prior pages.  Mocking and railing against the One who said "Father forgive them, they know not what they do."  Who told Peter as they took him to Pontius Pilate "Put your sword away, for could I not ask my father for twelve legions of angels." But instead he went to the cross to be ransom for our sin. And wouldn't some of you have been right there.  Well when you said  those things about Him directly you were---under His cross, saying just like the Pharisees, "If he is the son of God, let him come down from the cross and save himself."  ---If he is the son of God let him grow limbs on amputees. "Woe to those who call light darkness, and darkness light." Bottom line, if our common ancestor is not Adam and Eve then there is no sin, nor inherited sin nature in man, nor any need for redemption by Christ's blood.  So just live it up guys.  Everything's just wonderful.  This life is the only one.  But count me out. "For this know, that in the last days perilous times shall come.  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, no self control, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, HEADY, HIGHMINDED, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God...EVER LEARNING AND NEVER ABLE TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH...." II Tim. 3:1-4,7 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even TO THE TIME OF THE END: MANY SHALL RUN HERE AND THERE AND KNOWLEDGE SHALL BE INCREASED.  Daniel 12:4 There's alot more, but you won't believe what I just wrote.  But i believe one or two will.  The rest of you go do what you do. You're drunk. Go sleep it off. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,22:59    Bugger off you creato-bot. Your crap reading of scripture has per Romans 2: 23.  Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24.  For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Chayanov Posts: 289 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,23:37    Quote Bottom line, if our common ancestor is not Adam and Eve then there is no sin, nor inherited sin nature in man, nor any need for redemption by Christ's blood. Finally, something I agree with. -------------- Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

Chayanov Posts: 289 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,23:48    Seriously, I admittedly never understand this about Christians. Half the time they're whipping themselves for being inherently bad, and the other half they're enslaving themselves to the memory of a guy who had a bad weekend 2000 years ago. Let it go already and live your own life for a change. -------------- Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

Richard Simons Posts: 425 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,23:49    Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,22:23) Yes they were still very intelligent, very educated, very enlightened perceptors. They still brought us wonderful breakthroughs and understanding of the natural  world. But they became anti-apostles, and anti-prophets and anti-christs (not the anti-christ, the scriptures teach there are anti-christs and THE anti-christ). Telling us there was no Adam and Eve, throwing out the Bible as a fable book.   I think most people here are not what could reasonably be called anti-christs. Most Christians who contribute here, I'm sure, do not find that their faith is being attacked. However, there are many anti-apostles here. When Christians (they are the most frequent transgressors) try to push their religious views there is the tendency to push back against those who have decided that it is their aim in life to become apostles for their faith. What right do you have to invade my life and tell me that my views are wrong? If you wish to provide evidence to support your views, that would be a little more acceptable but there never is any. It always comes down to quoting passages from your mythology, or coming out with threats of what will happen in the afterlife. Tell me, why should I regard the Bible as any more or less a fable than the Illiad? Both have parts that are obviously factual, or close to factual, and other parts clearly pure mythology.   Quote Do we need any proof of this?  Just look in the prior pages.  Mocking and railing against the One who said "Father forgive them, they know not what they do."   I think most of the commentators here have not been railing against Jesus, but against you.   Quote Bottom line, if our common ancestor is not Adam and Eve then there is no sin, nor inherited sin nature in man, nor any need for redemption by Christ's blood.  So just live it up guys.  Everything's just wonderful.  This life is the only one.  But count me out. I've never understood this desire by some Christians to wallow in sin, and why something someone did hundreds of generations ago should condemn me. When I was a child this was one of the things that struck me as being particularly ridiculous and even nasty about Christianity. -------------- All sweeping statements are wrong.

Reed Posts: 274 Joined: Feb. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,00:01    Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,20:23) And wouldn't some of you have been right there.  Well when you said  those things about Him directly you were---under His cross, saying just like the Pharisees, "If he is the son of God, let him come down from the cross and save himself."  ---If he is the son of God let him grow limbs on amputees. You are the one who offered supposedly miraculous cures as an argument for belief in god. We just attempted to point out the implications of this claim. I'm not asking your god to show his power. I'm asking you how you reconcile your assertion that god cured your sisters allergy to milk with the apparent fact that he never cures rabies victims. As for me, I defer to the gospel of Waits:   Quote (Tom Waits @ heartattack, vine) don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,04:21    Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,21:15) I did not realize this website was full of biologists and chemists and MDs. No, you thought it was full of uninformed people that you could easily sway with unsupported claims that you've practiced delivering before.       Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,21:15) I plan to study the entire geologic time scale and the lunar also. Come into my parlor. If you can manage that any better than you did with biochem, I'd be real surprised.     Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,22:23) The whole crux is that the scientists were scientists until they entered into o-r-i-g-i-n-s.  Not all of them thank God. So, scientists are scientists -- until they deal with things YOU disagree with. Here's a quote for you; " It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way."( Prov 19:2 ) Just because YOU are a literalist and insist on a simplistic child-like view of the Bible, don't insist that all others have to as well. Studying "origins" isn't FORBIDDEN by any Bible *I* know of -- it's just you that says it's somehow bad -- for all YOU know, it may be a bad thing NOT to study origins.   Yet, you already have a preconceived notion of "truth" that you then spew all over others and ask them to join you in your ignorance. No thanks.     Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,22:23) Yes they were still very intelligent, very educated, very enlightened perceptors. They still brought us wonderful breakthroughs and understanding of the natural  world. But they became anti-apostles, and anti-prophets and anti-christs... Telling us there was no Adam and Eve, throwing out the Bible as a fable book.   Uh...I have no evidence that Adam and Eve were anything BUT metaphors that YOU take as absolute truth. Again, that simplistic, childlike view of religion that makes a mockery of it.     Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,22:23) Do we need any proof of this?  Just look in the prior pages.  Mocking and railing against the One who said "Father forgive them, they know not what they do."   As others have already mentioned...making fun of YOU is not quite the same as making fun of Jesus...or are you so deluded as to confuse the two?       Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,22:23) And wouldn't some of you have been right there.  Well when you said  those things about Him directly you were---under His cross, saying just like the Pharisees, "If he is the son of God, let him come down from the cross and save himself." Ah, thanks. People disagree with YOU and your foolish ideas, so you pretend they're "Pharisees" to make yourself feel better. I'm sure God approves of your judgements and that fat friggin' mote in your eye. At the very least, people were justified in mocking YOU first, since you chose to come here and start yapping  about things you were clearly misinformed about.         Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,22:23) There's alot more, but you won't believe what I just wrote.  But i believe one or two will.   Want to bet? You're assuming here -- and that's a bad assumption to make. You're a standard fanatic, RFJE , no different than many others that have been here before. You could be any religion, really, any other flavor of fundamentalist/ literalist.   The anti-evolution, anti-science tune is just the same. What's funny is that you probably think it's different. Nah. -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,04:32    RFJE, Hi there. Any chance you could answer the questions I've asked you please? They're just five simple questions, and to be blunt whilst I've been less than fulsomely warm, I have tried to deal with your chemical queries openly, honestly and accurately, and I haven't mocked or insulted you greatly (just yet!). If you are so thin skinned that the, relatively mild btw, comments of others bother you, then just ignore them and deal with me. Here are those questions again: Quote Rather than initially deal with everything you bring up, I'm going to try to do something different from normal and get to the root of your issues. I'd be very grateful of you could answer a few questions for me: 1) For what purpose have you decided to post at AtBC? Are you on a conversion mission or have you come to discuss things in a more adult manner? 2) Precisely what "pernicious beliefs" do "we" spread through the schools and media? 3) Why are those "pernicious beliefs" pernicious? I.e. what damage do they do and how are they evil? 4) What about those "pernicious beliefs" makes them beliefs? I.e. presumably there are aspects of the real world upon which you and I could agree (more on this in a moment). The word belief at least implies that little or no reference to available evidence is made. 5) Is there any piece of well supported, evidence based science which you think we could agree upon? I'm trying to find some utterly uncontroversial, evidence based common ground  we can build a discussion from. At the moment, I think you're talking at people and just starting a nonsensical flame war. Just remember YOU came HERE. This isn't an echo chamber, dissenting ideas are more than welcome, but they must be able to stand in the face of criticism. Everyone is subject to this, me included. You need to bring evidence to support your ideas, and when your ideas are contradicted by the evidence, abandon them, or at least shelve them until evidence comes in. Ignore all the foregoing stuff, start from scratch, calmly and honestly and simply answer those 5 questions. They are not traps, they are not designed to wrong foot you, they are points to build a discussion from. Cheers Louis -------------- Bye.

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,06:33    Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 14 2009,04:21)   Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,22:23) Do we need any proof of this?  Just look in the prior pages.  Mocking and railing against the One who said "Father forgive them, they know not what they do."   As others have already mentioned...making fun of YOU is not quite the same as making fun of Jesus...or are you so deluded as to confuse the two?   Don't forget that Christians are constantly admonished to be more Christ-like.  This is all part of RFJE's schtick.  He comes in here on a mission trip with his warped, childish science as the tool he thinks he will use to save our souls.   When he discovers that people here are actually smarter than him when it comes to science, he throws his arms dramatically out to the side, lolls his head onto his shoulder, rolls his eyes sky-ward and plaintively cries "Oh father, see how they persecute me, your humble (oh, so humble) servant! I came here with great (oh, so great) humility to share your mercy and salvation with them and these neo-Romans have treated me just as their ancestors treated you!  I know I have reached one or two of them, but forgive them if they don't proclaim to the world what I have laid on their hearts.  For their faith is not yet as strong or as humble (did I mention my great humility?) as mine!" On Sunday, he'll send a prayer of thanksgiving up to the pastor to read in front of the congregation thanking the Lord for allowing him to touch the hearts of evilutionists.  Then he'll regale a few of his friends with tales of his triumph around the donut table in the annex before Sunday school. Hey RFJE, how is the view from up there? -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,06:44    Quote (carlsonjok @ Feb. 14 2009,13:33) On Sunday, he'll send a prayer of thanksgiving up to the pastor to read in front of the congregation thanking the Lord for allowing him to touch the hearts of evilutionists.  Then he'll regale a few of his friends with tales of his triumph around the donut table in the annex before Sunday school. You forgot to add: he'll probably touch himself as well... Sorry, I don't take kindly to pious junk anymore! -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,06:57    Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 13 2009,23:23) "Woe to those who call light darkness, and darkness light." Oh, the irony. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

RFJE Posts: 45 Joined: Feb. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,07:02    Quote (Dr.GH @ Feb. 13 2009,22:59) Bugger off you creato-bot. Your crap reading of scripture has per Romans 2: 23.  Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24.  For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. In Romans , especially  the first 8 chapters you will find that: 1) All have broken the law. All have sinned. Sin brings death (separation from God). Rom 3:23, Rom 6:23 The scripture you have quoted is addressed to the Jews who thought that keeping was the means of salvation (v17) , but can truly be applied to some in the current day church. I do not make my boast in the "the law."  I do not believe you must keep a bunch of rules. The law is good, but the law kills.   "For I was alive without the law once (Paul is speaking of before he had known the law), but when the commandment came, sin came alive in me, and I died." Romans 7:9 The scripture teaches that the purpose of the law was to define sin. "...for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20  But it had no power to REMOVE the sin nature of man, it was intended by God to show us our need for help in the area of morality. "For we know the law is spiritual, but I am carnal (subject to fleshly appetites), sold under sin.  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would do, that I do not, but what I hate, that I do.  If then I do that which I would not, I consent to the law that it is good." Rom.7:14,15 This passage goes on to explain how the sin nature works in us in everyday experience.   And he talking to Christian Jews in Rome who had been raised to keep the law.   All Christians go through this struggle.  This passage is not defeatism.  Might as well sin. The next chapter Rom 8 gives the gospel of Christ which is the power which breaks the power of sin. The power of the sin is the law.  The scriptures clearly teach this, and so there is a bondage that comes through sin.  The law is the word of God and so the power of sin is ever stronger in us who know the law (the moral law ie. the ten commandments) Christ died on the cross to break the bondage and the condemnation.  But if he did not rise again, then death would have still have reigned in us.  This subject is very legal, that is part of the reason we need to ACCEPT what God did by faith, and then begin to learn what it is He did do for us.   This is what it means to "accept Christ."  We are accepting, not rejecting what he did do for us, and it is acknowledging our need for it.

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,07:13    Ok, another "preacher". Did this guy really deserve his own thread? -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,07:25    Probably not, but it kept the Wall clean and helped the Expelled thread get back on topic. I personally favour giving people such as RFJE their own threads, just as I favour giving trolls their own threads to be restricted to (not that RFJE is necessarily a troll). On this I've changed my mind. I was, in the past, an advocate of the surgical removal of morons/trolls/the deluded. I now only advocate this in direst need IF it is not possible for them to have a quarantined thread all to their own. Let them, and anyone who wants to respond to them, play in their own dedicated play park. Opinions may differ on the matter. As I've said before, the only genuinely controversial thing regarding religion and creationism etc is how to deal with their advocates. Louis -------------- Bye.

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,07:29    Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 14 2009,13:02) Quote (Dr.GH @ Feb. 13 2009,22:59) Bugger off you creato-bot. Your crap reading of scripture has per Romans 2: 23.  Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24.  For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. In Romans , especially  the first 8 chapters you will find that: 1) All have broken the law. All have sinned. Sin brings death (separation from God). Rom 3:23, Rom 6:23 [SNIP God walloping] RFJE, Hello again. It seems that you are keen to ignore simple questions in favour of giving lengthy biblical rants. I humbly suggest this is not the best way to communicate with this audience. Is there any chance you could answer my simple questions please? I've asked very nicely several times now. What is stopping you? Here they are again: Quote Rather than initially deal with everything you bring up, I'm going to try to do something different from normal and get to the root of your issues. I'd be very grateful of you could answer a few questions for me: 1) For what purpose have you decided to post at AtBC? Are you on a conversion mission or have you come to discuss things in a more adult manner? 2) Precisely what "pernicious beliefs" do "we" spread through the schools and media? 3) Why are those "pernicious beliefs" pernicious? I.e. what damage do they do and how are they evil? 4) What about those "pernicious beliefs" makes them beliefs? I.e. presumably there are aspects of the real world upon which you and I could agree (more on this in a moment). The word belief at least implies that little or no reference to available evidence is made. 5) Is there any piece of well supported, evidence based science which you think we could agree upon? I'm trying to find some utterly uncontroversial, evidence based common ground  we can build a discussion from. At the moment, I think you're talking at people and just starting a nonsensical flame war. Louis -------------- Bye.

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,07:52    Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 14 2009,07:02) All have broken the law. All have sinned. Sin brings death -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,08:07    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Feb. 14 2009,06:44) Quote (carlsonjok @ Feb. 14 2009,13:33) On Sunday, he'll send a prayer of thanksgiving up to the pastor to read in front of the congregation thanking the Lord for allowing him to touch the hearts of evilutionists.  Then he'll regale a few of his friends with tales of his triumph around the donut table in the annex before Sunday school. You forgot to add: he'll probably touch himself as well... -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,08:12    Let me reiterate, RFJE, that if you want to talk Science, this is a great place to do it. If you want to proselytize, you need to do it elsewhere. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,08:25    Quote (carlsonjok @ Feb. 14 2009,14:07) Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Feb. 14 2009,06:44)   Quote (carlsonjok @ Feb. 14 2009,13:33) On Sunday, he'll send a prayer of thanksgiving up to the pastor to read in front of the congregation thanking the Lord for allowing him to touch the hearts of evilutionists.  Then he'll regale a few of his friends with tales of his triumph around the donut table in the annex before Sunday school. You forgot to add: he'll probably touch himself as well... What? AGAIN? Ceiling cat needs to find better things to do. Louis -------------- Bye.

RFJE Posts: 45 Joined: Feb. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,09:32    Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 14 2009,08:12) Let me reiterate, RFJE, that if you want to talk Science, this is a great place to do it. If you want to proselytize, you need to do it elsewhere. Scientific investigation--is it not based on observation. I offered you evidence of the innate nature of man's individuality to give evidence for the human spirit.  I wrote that one to Louis.  It's all in the chemistry of the brain you say--even ethical judgement or conscience.  If we're just chemicals trying to survive and promote the species why is there guilt?  You say it's the evil religionists' fault. Okay-- so I offered you evidence of things I have observed that are outside the explanation of chemistry or any natural explanation, because they were events--but you did not believe me. Okay--so I offered you evidence of only a small example of prophecy--you tell me I am trying to convert you. Okay--so I offer you something that I believe is a misunderstanding by alot of people--the law.  And with it the evidence of our sinful nature.  And yes it is a very sexual nature.   You guys tell me I shouldn't wallow in sin--and again you tell me not to proselytize. The bottom line is that we are on two different wavelengths.  I do not disagree the facts in chemistry or biology.  I disagree with you in the subject of origins. Then when one of your own scientists who is trained by evolutionary science, and is highly credentialed, turns  and says, "You guys, there's too many problems with this theory and I really think there is some design implications here in this thing I'm studying--then suddenly--he is no longer a scientist.  SO let's take away his funding, his status in the community, and then ridicule him if he is funded by Christians who believe in a designer. I had some more natural science for you which at least you would have seen as evolutionary, but I hit the wrong button and lost it.  I'll redo it. And Louis I will answer your questions--and you do LIKE to do this it's not just the quarantine effect, or you wouldn't put so much energy into it. I have to take my son to a game.

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,09:38    Wow! First, that sounds like a perfect FTK impression (family excuse to runa away included). Second, do you realise that by the very way you came here, you look like a pedophile outside a school? "Here, scientist, lookit what I've got for you, science stuff" Then it all goes manky when you introduce us to your "little friend"... -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,10:04    Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 14 2009,15:32) [SNIP crapola] And Louis I will answer your questions--and you do LIKE to do this it's not just the quarantine effect, or you wouldn't put so much energy into it. [SNIP] Please don't impute motives to me. The reason I set up a thread for you, and engaged you reasonably politely, is because I think everyone deserves a fair crack of the whip. I enjoy rational debate with intellectually honest, intelligent people, I make no secret of that. I don't enjoy coddling intellectually dishonest morons. It remains to be seen which camp you'll fall into. We'll get to the "all just chemistry" stuff later. Like I've said before, if you don't understand the basics, and I think you've demonstrated thus far that you don't, what is the point of trying to get you to understand things that are vastly more complicated? Answer the questions. Louis -------------- Bye.

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,10:05    Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 14 2009,09:32) I offered you evidence of the innate nature of man's individuality to give evidence for the human spirit.  I wrote that one to Louis.  It's all in the chemistry of the brain you say--even ethical judgement or conscience.  If we're just chemicals trying to survive and promote the species why is there guilt?  You say it's the evil religionists' fault. "Innate nature of man's individuality" = evidence of spirit? WTF? Lots of other animals show individuality, do they all have "spirit?" And here, do you mean anima or soul, or that they're just rambunctious?? And who the hell said that guilt is the "fault" of religionists? Have you ever read anything on ethology? anything at all?   Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 14 2009,09:32) Okay-- so I offered you evidence of things I have observed that are outside the explanation of chemistry or any natural explanation, because they were events--but you did not believe me. Of course not, you offered unattributed anecdote without verification or verifiability.   Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 14 2009,09:32) Okay--so I offered you evidence of only a small example of prophecy--you tell me I am trying to convert you. Where did you offer instances of prophecy? I mean something verifiably datable prior to the event in question? Something not a post-hoc claim and not swimming in ambiguity?   Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 14 2009,09:32) Okay--so I offer you something that I believe is a misunderstanding by alot of people--the law.  And with it the evidence of our sinful nature.  And yes it is a very sexual nature.   You guys tell me I shouldn't wallow in sin--and again you tell me not to proselytize. Why are laws evidence of anything concerning sin? And why is our "sinfulness" somehow "of a sexual nature" to you? And no, don't proselytize -- it's not evidence or even meaningful in light of your initial claims. It's simply annoying and irrelevant.   Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 14 2009,09:32) The bottom line is that we are on two different wavelengths.  I do not disagree the facts in chemistry or biology.  I disagree with you in the subject of origins.Then when one of your own scientists who is trained by evolutionary science, and is highly credentialed, turns  and says, "You guys, there's too many problems with this theory and I really think there is some design implications here in this thing I'm studying--then suddenly--he is no longer a scientist.  SO let's take away his funding, his status in the community, and then ridicule him if he is funded by Christians who believe in a designer. Who took away someone's funding for what you just stated? Got examples? Let's hear it. And why are you relying on arguments from authority and other fallacies? Won't YOUR evidence actually stand up to scrutiny?   Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 14 2009,09:32) I had some more natural science for you which at least you would have seen as evolutionary, but I hit the wrong button and lost it.  I'll redo it. And Louis I will answer your questions--and you do LIKE to do this it's not just the quarantine effect, or you wouldn't put so much energy into it. I have to take my son to a game. Ah, now THERE ya go...bring on the data and evidence. That's what works here -- not fallacies and preaching. -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,10:10    Evolution Weekend: Over 11,000 Christian clergy in the USA say RFJE's dichotomy is false. Quote 2009 Evolution Weekend This year represents the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin (12 February 1809) and the 150th anniversary of the publication of his seminal work On the Origin of Species in 1859. This backdrop provides a rich opportunity to demonstrate that religion and science have much to offer one another. Please join us and congregations all around the world iin celebrating Evolution Weekend 2009! 13 -15 February 2009 -- Evolution Weekend Evolution Weekend is an opportunity for serious discussion and reflection on the relationship between religion and science. One important goal is to elevate the quality of the discussion on this critical topic - to move beyond sound bites. A second critical goal is to demonstrate that religious people from many faiths and locations understand that evolution is sound science and poses no problems for their faith. Finally, as with The Clergy Letter itself, which has now been signed by more than 11,000 members of the Christian clergy in the United States, Evolution Weekend makes it clear that those claiming that people must choose between religion and science are creating a false dichotomy. Through sermons, discussion groups, meaningful conversations and seminars, the leaders listed below will show that religion and science are not adversaries.   -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Doc Bill Posts: 1039 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,10:26    I know, don't feed the troll.  Satan is making me do this! Hey, Mayberry RFD, you wrote: Quote Then when one of your own scientists who is trained by evolutionary science, and is highly credentialed, turns  and says, "You guys, there's too many problems with this theory and I really think there is some design implications here in this thing I'm studying--then suddenly--he is no longer a scientist.  SO let's take away his funding, his status in the community, and then ridicule him if he is funded by Christians who believe in a designer. Who are you referring to?

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,10:40    Quote (Louis @ Feb. 14 2009,11:04) I enjoy rational debate with intellectually honest, intelligent people, I make no secret of that. I don't enjoy coddling intellectually dishonest morons. It remains to be seen which camp you'll fall into. With all due respect, my friend, no. It doesn't. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,11:27    Quote Then when one of your own scientists who is trained by evolutionary science, and is highly credentialed, turns  and says, "You guys, there's too many problems with this theory and I really think there is some design implications here in this thing I'm studying--then suddenly--he is no longer a scientist.  SO let's take away his funding, his status in the community, and then ridicule him if he is funded by Christians who believe in a designer. Who? -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,11:42    Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 14 2009,16:40) Quote (Louis @ Feb. 14 2009,11:04) I enjoy rational debate with intellectually honest, intelligent people, I make no secret of that. I don't enjoy coddling intellectually dishonest morons. It remains to be seen which camp you'll fall into. With all due respect, my friend, no. It doesn't. You're probably right. You know me, I'm a big softie, I like to give people a few chances to be rational. I'm trying a new approach. It might* work. If it does then we get a nice conversation, if it doesn't then we get a standard chew toy. As I am watching the Six Nations at the moment, I think a quote is appropriate: Quote "The relationship between England and Wales is based on trust and understanding. They don't trust us, and we don't understand them" Ex-RFU Secretary Dudley Wood The same sort of thing applies to us and creationists (although I am loathe to put things in such adversarial terms), except that creationists don't understand and don't trust scientists, and scientists understand creationists vastly too well, and therefore don't trust them at all. I know RFJE has got off to a poor start, but I'm giving him a final chance or so to make a sensible stab at rational discourse. If he fails, as it looks likely he will do, then he'll go into the same bin as GoP/AFD/FTK/Obliviot/Denial etc. But I think it's up to him to decide where he wants to be, not up to me. All I'm trying to do is find some common ground and see if it's possible to build from there. If all RFJE is interested in is mindless preaching (and this seems likely) and won't attempt to find a common position from which rational discourse can follow, or cannot manage to conduct a rational discussion, then we all know what happens. Cheers Louis *Read: very probably will not. -------------- Bye.

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