RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (341) < ... 202 203 204 205 206 [207] 208 209 210 211 212 ... >   
  Topic: UnReasonable Kansans thread, AKA "For the kids"< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,10:14   

Hi Ftk,

Wow, you sure are pissed off at Kristine.  Interesting how you just made her point for her while proving yourself a moron.  Kristine said Creationism was a class issue--you pointed out the fact that you were from a poor family.

She argued that creationism was something to be passed on to those who don't get an education.  You never addressed that at all.  Tangentially, you said your husband got an architecture degree.  What is his stance on the age of the earth?  That might make your point relevant.

You railed at Kristine for voicing an opinion because she doesn't know your situation.  Yet you allow yourself to spout about things that you ADMITTEDLY know nothing about.

Still looking forward to that face to fact meeting.  Be sure to bring some friends to witness--any friends you want.  I'm not sure if you could hold a conversation with anyone.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,10:16   

Quote
1.  Is it okay for ID proponents to post personal information of the internet?

2.  Do you think that Wes and/or steve would not remove your personal information from the board if someone posted it?

3.  Do you think that the Baylor curators and other officials post their home addresses and phone numbers to the internet?

4.  Why re you back posting here at AtBC?

5.  How does Behe know what is in a group of books without ever having read the books?


6.  What is the point of the Behe/unread books discussion?

7.  According to ID Theory, how did the immune system develop?

8.  What is gained by jettisoning ToE and saying God did it?

9.  In the light of a science teacher teaching that the study of beetles is not a scientific effort and possibly that spiders evolved from insects (if evolution were true), how is ID theory driving kids toward science?

10. Why don't IDers pursue RESEARCH GRANTS, from the Templeton Foundation, for example?

11. Are you afraid to examine the sequence evidence for ToE?

11A.  Added.  Do you understand what sequence evidence is?

12. Where did Albatrossity2 claim that his students were religious freaks?

12A.  Added.  Where did blipey claim that his nephew's teacher was "a source of evil"?

13. Why don't IDers publish in PCID?

14. Why hasn't PCID been published in over two years?

15. Do you believe that Darwinists have kept PCID from being published?

16. How?

17. Can ID be called a theory when it hasn't made even one prediction?

18. Yes or no: ID wouldn't benefit from publishing any articles, anywhere.

19. Yes or no: Your children should be taught the historical insights of the Bhagavad Gita?

20. What sort of Waterloo can we look forward to on February 8, 2008?

Interesting side note. Just came across this comment back on page 102 where you berate people for not having read the pertinent books.  Which begs several more questions I'll put here.  Why is reading material important?  Do you think it might have been important for Behe to read some books before commenting on them?  Have you read the textbook that Albatrossity2 sent you?  Have you got that list of peer reviewed articles you've read ready to go?  Are you seriously arguing that we should read books and that IDers don't have to?

21. What are IDers doing to garner respect?

22. Given that you believe ID is science because of "design inference", why is ToE not science because all it has is inference?

23. Can any human being know what is contained in a book without having read the book?

24. If everyone died in the Flood, who wrote all the different stories down?

25. What year was the Flood over? 2300 BC

26. What year was the height of the Egyptian Empire? 2030 BC

27. What was the population of the world in that year? 30,000,000

28. How did 8 people (6 really) make that many people?


29. Is Dembski a creationist?

30. How would monogamous gays destroy heterosexual marriage?

31. How did Koalas get from Ararat to Australia?

32. Do you believe that the FLOOD is a scientifically tenable idea?

33. Are the people who run Baylor Darwin Police?

34. Are those same people Baptist?

35. What does this mean?

36. Given that HIV cannot have evolved (Behe), which of the 8 (6 really) people on the ark were carrying HIV?

You also may want to take a whack at these.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
celdd



Posts: 18
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,11:05   

Quote
Again, we find soft tissue and evidence refuting feathers. ….

Personally, I'm waiting for the study that tells us how long fossilized soft tissue can survive before it will decay and disintegrate.


From the above and in the comments she makes, it appears that FTK is misunderstanding what the article says.  It doesn’t say that soft tissue was found.  What was found was mineralized (fossilized) soft tissue (ie rock).  That is, a fossil for which some of the soft tissue was fossilized along with the usual hard parts such as bone.  

This is similar to the fossilization of trees to form petrified wood, “which can preserve the original structure of the wood in all its detail, down to the microsopic level.”  

As for her last question, fossilized soft tissue will survive as long as any other rock of the same composition.  Normal chemical and physical weathering processes apply.

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,13:08   

FtK is now reviewing Your Inner Fish.

How does "creation science" explain hiccups, FtK?

--------------
CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,13:59   

Quote (Mister DNA @ Jan. 19 2008,13:08)
FtK is now reviewing Your Inner Fish.

How does "creation science" explain hiccups, FtK?

I've ordered my copy of Shubin's book and it is scheduled to arrive on Tuesday. I am looking forward to reading it.

I predict that FtK will not read it, but will continue to cite "reviews" written by others who prefer to view the world with their eyes shut and their ears closed.  But I could be wrong. Her most recent post here, at least, was on a topic that she is an expert on. If she would stick to topics like that, nobody here would have a problem with her statements and pronouncements. So kudos to her for posting on a topic where she actually is an expert, her own life and times.

Oh, BTW, FtK. Here's a correction for your most recent post about the Golden Compass.  
Quote
Evidently, The Golden Compass didn't fair fare well at the box office.

You're welcome.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,14:24   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Jan. 19 2008,13:59)
Oh, BTW, FtK. Here's a correction for your most recent post about the Golden Compass.    
Quote
Evidently, The Golden Compass didn't fair fare well at the box office.

You're welcome.

She should be along any minute now to say "thanks".
Quote
Evidently, The Golden Compass didn't do so well at the box office.


--------------
CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,14:28   

Quote (Mister DNA @ Jan. 19 2008,13:08)
FtK is now reviewing Your Inner Fish.

How does "creation science" explain hiccups, FtK?

Mini-demons.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,14:38   

Quote (Mister DNA @ Jan. 19 2008,14:08)
FtK is now reviewing Your Inner Fish.

How does "creation science" explain hiccups, FtK?

Too many beers.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,14:43   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Jan. 19 2008,14:38)
Quote (Mister DNA @ Jan. 19 2008,14:08)
FtK is now reviewing Your Inner Fish.

How does "creation science" explain hiccups, FtK?

Too many beers.

That also explains creation science[sic][hic].

--------------
CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,14:52   

Quote
How does "creation science" explain hiccups, FtK?



Teh Fall rurnt ever thing son.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,14:54   

Quote (Mister DNA @ Jan. 19 2008,13:08)
FtK is now reviewing Your Inner Fish.

How does "creation science" explain hiccups, FtK?

This is a subject of ongoing high-level creation science research. See here for a list of ideas for projects to be entered in the Twin Cities Creation Science Fair. A bit down the list at #32 is  
Quote
32. Why do we hiccup?

My personal favorite, and undoubtedly a topic of great interest in Topeka, is #83  
Quote
83. Why do people believe in Evolution?

I really hope some student picks that one and gives it the thorough research that it deserves. Who knows, it may actually change his/her mind about reality...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,15:14   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Jan. 19 2008,14:54)
Quote (Mister DNA @ Jan. 19 2008,13:08)
FtK is now reviewing Your Inner Fish.

How does "creation science" explain hiccups, FtK?

This is a subject of ongoing high-level creation science research. See here for a list of ideas for projects to be entered in the Twin Cities Creation Science Fair. A bit down the list at #32 is    
Quote
32. Why do we hiccup?

My personal favorite, and undoubtedly a topic of great interest in Topeka, is #83    
Quote
83. Why do people believe in Evolution?

I really hope some student picks that one and gives it the thorough research that it deserves. Who knows, it may actually change his/her mind about reality...

The follow-up question is great, too:
Quote
84. What events caused them to become evolutionists?

Um... reality? An education?

That list is hilarious... is it for real? I seem to remember someone - Jesus' General, I think - catching some flack for posting photos from their fair.

It's hard to tell, because they're linked at Objective Ministries, which features this on-topic bit of creation science:
Quote
2nd Place: "Women Were Designed For Homemaking"

Jonathan Goode (grade 7) applied findings from many fields of science to support his conclusion that God designed women for homemaking: physics shows that women have a lower center of gravity than men, making them more suited to carrying groceries and laundry baskets; biology shows that women were designed to carry un-born babies in their wombs and to feed born babies milk, making them the natural choice for child rearing; social sciences show that the wages for women workers are lower than for normal workers, meaning that they are unable to work as well and thus earn equal pay; and exegetics shows that God created Eve as a companion for Adam, not as a co-worker.


They're also linked at creationism.org. Man, it's so hard to tell these days.

--------------
CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,15:26   

Why do people "believe in" evolution?

The reason this is a class issue is, evolution ("accumulated small change") also works in the financial realm.

It's true that I have never earned much money in any job. And yet, even at my lowest point, I socked away $$ in my 401K. My financial advisor adored me - and it's made all the difference, even though it was only $35 a week at first, because now it's substantial. I never had a very nice house, and I got my furniture from the alley, but those things don't matter - saving your money, given enough time, does.

But most Americans aren't saving money. I see people throw pennies out of their pockets onto the street. I literally pick them up and save them in a jar. But it's as if Americans these days don't believe that pennies can turn into dollars. They chase after higher salaries, and don't save, and live paycheck to paycheck - whereas I've learned to live on a pittance and put the rest away, precisely because I know what time can do.

For me, pennies turning into dollars over time is a fine analogy for evolutionary change, and I have every intention of retiring in a country other than the United States (because I don't want to grow old here).

It could be that what makes one middle class is not how much that one makes, but what one chooses to spend money on. And what makes one educated is not engaging in these interminable "debates" but what one does when one encounters an open-ended question in an unknown situation. Certainly, open-ended questions at the edge of knowledge is what scientists are equipped to handle.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,15:36   

Quote (Mister DNA @ Jan. 19 2008,15:14)
It's hard to tell, because they're linked at Objective Ministries, which features this on-topic bit of creation science:
     
Quote
2nd Place: "Women Were Designed For Homemaking"

Jonathan Goode (grade 7) applied findings from many fields of science to support his conclusion that God designed women for homemaking: physics shows that women have a lower center of gravity than men, making them more suited to carrying groceries and laundry baskets; biology shows that women were designed to carry un-born babies in their wombs and to feed born babies milk, making them the natural choice for child rearing; social sciences show that the wages for women workers are lower than for normal workers, meaning that they are unable to work as well and thus earn equal pay; and exegetics shows that God created Eve as a companion for Adam, not as a co-worker.


They're also linked at creationism.org. Man, it's so hard to tell these days.

I'm pretty sure that the list of projects for the Creation Science Fair is legit; i.e. unwittingly hilarious.

Objective Ministries, on the other hand, is purposely hilarious. One of their alleged staff persons is Diamond Jack Holgroth, pictured with some mighty big hair


and described thusly.    
Quote
"Diamond" Jack Holgroth is a Game Theoretician who currently teaches a course in Advanced Game Theory for Theologians at Fellowship University. He served our country during the Cold War as a Game Theory Tactician for the Department of Defense and single-handedly developed an elegant solution to the "Fisherman's Quandary", a game theory problem that was crucial to the winning of the arms race and that was famously intractable - until Diamond Jack came along. Jack also enjoys vexillology and can signal Bible passages from memory in fluent semaphore.

That semaphore thing would probably have been mighty  handy during the fludde, except that there weren't any other boats around. Maybe the kangaroos used 'em to signal "buzz off" to the Tasmanian wolves as they rafted off to Australia from Turkey...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,16:07   

@Kristine:
Not only in economics, engineering and technical companies (stuff like Siemens and Mercedes, yea I've seen The Blind Watchmaker :P) love evolution for improving stuff for them.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,18:05   

Quote

Quote

83. Why do people believe in Evolution?



In my case, the other side's "arguments" had a lot to do with it. :p

Henry

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,18:23   

I bought "Inner Fish" last week while cutting through B&N during a rain storm.  It was just sitting there on the Just Published shelf waiting for me!

Shubin spends the first part of the book describing how the search for a Devonian critter was conducted and how Tiktaalik was discovered.

After reading even just the first part of the book, FtK should be able to answer these questions:

Why did Shubin go to Canada above the Arctic Circle to prospect for fossils?

How long did it take (years or expeditions) before Shubin's team found Tiktaalik?

How was Tiktaalik discovered?  Did they step on it?  Did it fall out of the sky?  Before Tiktaalik, what fossils were being discovered mostly in the area?

What is the immediate physical feature that caught their attention about Tiktaalik and why?

Of course, I will not be holding by breath waiting for an reply. FtK doesn't have to read the book.  She could browse the first 20 or so pages and answer every one.

She's probably too busy reading peer-reviewed publications, anyway.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,18:38   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Jan. 19 2008,14:59)
Oh, BTW, FtK. Here's a correction for your most recent post about the Golden Compass.  
Quote
Evidently, The Golden Compass didn't fair fare well at the box office.

You're welcome.

http://reasonablekansans.blogspot.com/2008....ss.html

FtK says:
Quote
Well, I honestly can't say that I'm not relieved to see that the next two books aren't going to make it to the big screen.


I think Denyse O'Leary taught FtK's Freshman Comp class.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,18:45   

My guess is the sequels will happen, by the way. Worldwide, The Golden Compass made much more money than it cost.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,19:02   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Jan. 19 2008,15:54)
Quote (Mister DNA @ Jan. 19 2008,13:08)
FtK is now reviewing Your Inner Fish.

How does "creation science" explain hiccups, FtK?

This is a subject of ongoing high-level creation science research. See here for a list of ideas for projects to be entered in the Twin Cities Creation Science Fair. A bit down the list at #32 is    
Quote
32. Why do we hiccup?

My personal favorite, and undoubtedly a topic of great interest in Topeka, is #83  
Quote
83. Why do people believe in Evolution?

I really hope some student picks that one and gives it the thorough research that it deserves. Who knows, it may actually change his/her mind about reality...

Ho-Ley Crap that is a big heap of tard.

Quote

113. How can we have hot and cold water in the ocean at the same time?


Wow. I'm almost embarrased for them. We seriously need to get a field trip to that thing.

And check out the dumb misuse of quote marks on the cartoon page they link to.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,19:10   

That TCCSA site is incredible. I clicked on the 'articles' link and here's one of the things I see:



Quote
BIG BANG? OR BIG FIZZLE?


# Ten Censored Articles On Flaws In Big Bang Theory
by Robert Gentry (see his web site, http://www.halos.com/)

# Refuting The Big Bang Theory
by Victoria Kasten, 9th Grade Winner of 2006 Writing Contest


9th grade? Sounds about right.

   
Nomad



Posts: 311
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,20:04   

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 19 2008,19:02)
   
Quote

113. How can we have hot and cold water in the ocean at the same time?

This is amazing.  It's like their approach is to leave the kids ignorant of modern science, ask them questions, and have them come up innovative answers not based in reality.

Actually.. I think I learned about thermal gradients in computer games first, playing a submarine combat sim.  But that's beside the point, I'm not normal.

This list does make for good reading.
 
Quote
3. Make a computer model of the Flood currents.

This seems out of place to me.  Kids that don't understand the thermal behavior of the ocean are hardly in a position to make a computer model of a global flood.  On the other hand, if you want to make kids think that it's easy to get simple answers to complex problems like that...
Quote
How much voltage or current can a human take before he is killed? Could do experiments on a plant.

Because as well all know, plants are ideal models for human physiology.  As a side note.. what the HELL is this doing in a science fair list?
Quote
15. How long can flies survive freezing in a frig?

Ya'know, I'd like to know how long flies can live before dying in a frig as well.  I'd also like to know what a frig is.
Quote
23. Why do we have an Adams apple?

Goddidit?
Quote
33. Why is hair thicker on the head than the rest of the body?

I'd really like to know that, actually.  The whole (nearly) hairless ape thing baffles me.  I won't be asking these cretins for the answer, however.
Quote
46. Where are teeth stored?

In the tooth fairy's warehouse?

The interesting thing is that there are a lot of questions about God's intent.  I thought we couldn't know the mind of god.
Quote
97. Why did God make birds to fly?

Quote
65. What affects skin color? Is one color better than another? What was God's purpose in this?

Quote
92. Why do some animals lay eggs and others bear babies alive? Why did God do it this way?



To top it all off, the ultimate science fair question of all time:

   
Quote
72. What is God made of?



I REALLY want to see a science project designed to answer that question.  I'd pay money to see that.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,20:11   

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 19 2008,19:38)
FtK says:  
Quote
Well, I honestly can't say that I'm not relieved to see that the next two books aren't going to make it to the big screen.


I think Denyse O'Leary taught FtK's Freshman Comp class.

I had to stare at that for a full 30 seconds, following the reversals, before I decided she hadn't failed to refrain from saying what she didn't want to give the wrong impression she wasn't saying.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,20:38   

Here FtK, let me help you.

Well, I honestly can't say that I'm not relieved to see I'm glad that the next two books aren't going to make it to the big screen.

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,20:41   

Quote
How much voltage or current can a human take before he is killed?

Extremely complex answer - It depends.

From personal experience as an (obviously not too bright) electrician, I've been nailed with 120v more times than I can count.  Probably 100 times with 240v.  Maybe 10 times with 480v.  Once with all three phases of 480v clutched tightly in my bare hand while lying on a concrete floor in a puddle of hydraulic fluid.  That hurt like hell.  Bounced my head between the concrete and the steel rail of the conveyor belt I was working on, just to add injury to more injury.

Worst of all though was the time I was working in a primary box.  Damned PECO wired the box backwards and instead of a three phase 480v set of lines, I put my meter (rated for 600v) on a 4.5kv set of lines.  It exploded.  

I woke up the next day in a hospital, blind and unable to remember the incident.  Apparently I kept assuming that I'd been in a car accident on the way to the job, apologizing to my buddy (the boss' son) for wrecking the truck, being corrected and having the whole thing explained to me, and returning to start.  Zero short term memory.  The vision took about a week to return enough to be able to function.  Best anyone can figure is that my brand new boots' thick rubber soles saved my life, though at that voltage they shouldn't have.  (I kept the remains of the meter as a souvenir, and still have them.)

But then there are people who bite the big weenie when they hit a bare spot in the house feed wires with an aluminum gutter.  That's only 240v.

I don't recommend experimenting to find out.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,20:50   

It takes about 50 milliAmps to stop the human heart. And no, you can't do experiments about that on a plant because plants don't have hearts, or nerves. Even a fair fraction of creationists could probably be made to understand that, if you had several hours and a few anatomy diagrams with which to explain it to them. Maybe not a majority of them, but some of the smarter ones.

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,20:59   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 19 2008,21:41)
Quote
How much voltage or current can a human take before he is killed?

Extremely complex answer - It depends.

From personal experience as an (obviously not too bright) electrician, I've been nailed with 120v more times than I can count.  Probably 100 times with 240v.  Maybe 10 times with 480v.  Once with all three phases of 480v clutched tightly in my bare hand while lying on a concrete floor in a puddle of hydraulic fluid.  That hurt like hell.  Bounced my head between the concrete and the steel rail of the conveyor belt I was working on, just to add injury to more injury.

Worst of all though was the time I was working in a primary box.  Damned PECO wired the box backwards and instead of a three phase 480v set of lines, I put my meter (rated for 600v) on a 4.5kv set of lines.  It exploded.  

I woke up the next day in a hospital, blind and unable to remember the incident.  Apparently I kept assuming that I'd been in a car accident on the way to the job, apologizing to my buddy (the boss' son) for wrecking the truck, being corrected and having the whole thing explained to me, and returning to start.  Zero short term memory.  The vision took about a week to return enough to be able to function.  Best anyone can figure is that my brand new boots' thick rubber soles saved my life, though at that voltage they shouldn't have.  (I kept the remains of the meter as a souvenir, and still have them.)

But then there are people who bite the big weenie when they hit a bare spot in the house feed wires with an aluminum gutter.  That's only 240v.

I don't recommend experimenting to find out.

I'd heard  (can't recall where) that 80-90 volts is actually the most dangerous range. Shocks in that range can induce cardiac fibrillation, while higher voltages result in cardiac "clamping": the heart simply seizes up in a single tight contraction - then resumes beating once the voltage is removed. Of course, the most serious permanent injuries induced by electric current are caused by the heating of tissues, which is a more severe problem at higher voltages.

When I was in high school some buddies and I had a device for cooking hot dogs by electrocution. The dogs were mounted on prongs which, once the lid was closed, were directly connected to the 120 volt line. The dogs were cooked from inside by the heat generated by the current flowing through them.  

The thing worked, but got pretty scuzzy because we rarely cleaned it out.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,21:07   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 19 2008,21:41)
Worst of all though was the time I was working in a primary box.  Damned PECO wired the box backwards and instead of a three phase 480v set of lines, I put my meter (rated for 600v) on a 4.5kv set of lines.  It exploded.  

I woke up the next day in a hospital, blind and unable to remember the incident.  Apparently I kept assuming that I'd been in a car accident on the way to the job, apologizing to my buddy (the boss' son) for wrecking the truck, being corrected and having the whole thing explained to me, and returning to start.  Zero short term memory.  The vision took about a week to return enough to be able to function.  Best anyone can figure is that my brand new boots' thick rubber soles saved my life, though at that voltage they shouldn't have.  (I kept the remains of the meter as a souvenir, and still have them.)

Didn't know dielectric breakdown of rubber happened at voltages that low. In one of the last physics labs I worked in, I built a UV/Ozone cleaner with a stepper motor inside so you could control the amount of exposure the samples got. You could do things like put an octyltrichlorosilane monolayer on a surface and then strip it off in varying amounts and make a steep gradient. The fused-silica lamp needed 5000 volts to get going. I had a little fun with the power supply until my boss found out and got angry. I had to go back to playing with safer things like hot Piranha solution.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,21:26   

I remember one of my roommates at a summer athletic camp (my dad thought I should at least be exposed to the idea of baseball, football, etc.) whose most memorable behavior was arriving at camp with a two-wire extension cord. He cut the plug end off, and would bare an inch of wire on each lead, cutting to separate those so he had a couple of feet of insulated line each. He would plug the thing in and brush the bare ends together. Who needs toy fireworks with that sort of thing?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,21:42   

I think the consternation was as much about arcing the inch or so to ground around the boot sole as it was about insular failure.  I've seen 4.5kv lines arc every bit of 12 inches in damp weather.  The meter housing was plastic, and it made toast of that on the way to making a big black burn hole on the bottom of my helper's foot.  (I was holding the leads, he was holding the meter in front of me so I could see it easily.)  He picked himself up and finished the day out after I was loaded into the ambulance.

Hard to say exactly what happened and how.  I'm just happy to be still sucking air.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
  10202 replies since Mar. 17 2007,23:38 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (341) < ... 202 203 204 205 206 [207] 208 209 210 211 212 ... >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]