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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Coloration of animals, mimicry, aposematism

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Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2007,08:14    Much work, huh? Listen asshole, the world is your oyster.  Get out there and 'do all this much work' your god damn self.  You know wny you won't?  Because your are full of it. You don't even have an alternative hypothesis.  You don't even understand the nature of selection pressure, for you have an a priori commitment to arguing that it doesn't exist. You don't even grasp the mendelian nature of most character inheritance.   You are a joke.  The fact that some birds eat some wasps sometimes doesn't mean a single thing that you say that it does.   <shrug> <shrug> <shrug> fuck off. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

VMartin Posts: 525 Joined: Nov. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,12:35    Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 01 2007,08:14) Much work, huh? Listen asshole, the world is your oyster.  Get out there and 'do all this much work' your god damn self.  You know wny you won't?  Because your are full of it. You don't even have an alternative hypothesis.  You don't even understand the nature of selection pressure, for you have an a priori commitment to arguing that it doesn't exist. You don't even grasp the mendelian nature of most character inheritance.   You are a joke.  The fact that some birds eat some wasps sometimes doesn't mean a single thing that you say that it does.   <shrug> <shrug> <shrug> fuck off. Why do you believe that only "some birds eat some wasps"?   Do you think that other birds are as afraid of wasps as you are? Because you shit into your neodarwinian pants seeing wasps it doesn't mean the birds do the same, what do you think stupido? -------------- I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.- Charles Darwin

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,13:20    martin did you not pay any attention to the experimental results up thread where bids ate wasps, then avoided them thereafter?  i don't think you were.  perhaps someone will translate it into german for you. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,13:21    and your theory is?  what experiments could you do to falsify it? -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,13:31    I'm sorry Martin i don't really see what you're trying to prove here. I don't think you're trying to disprove natural selection, because it's easely viewed in daily life, but i think you're trying to disprove that natural selection is leading to new species. Am i right?

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,14:50    Quote (Assassinator @ Nov. 04 2007,13:31) I'm sorry Martin i don't really see what you're trying to prove here. I don't think you're trying to disprove natural selection, because it's easely viewed in daily life, but i think you're trying to disprove that natural selection is leading to new species. Am i right? For those of you who haven't watched VM's evasions, here's the lowdown: a) he hates Darwinism and thinks that Darwinists are as bad as Stalinists, b) he doesn't think natural selection exists, and cites various German authors of the 1920's and 1930's to back this up. His science reading seems to taper off around 1940, c) he appears to have no training in biology or science in any form, d) he claims to have NO clue as to what does cause variation in nature, but he's very adamant that natural selection is NOT responsible for any of it, e) he refuses to say whether he believes in heredity, f) he refuses to say whether he believes in common descent between humans and apes. g) he can't remember the difference between 'arise' and 'arouse', and he thinks 'stupido' is a word, h) he thinks we're supposed to be very ashamed and impressed by all this. There. Now you understand VMartin. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,14:58    O dear...well, too bad for him. Our whole westren vacination program is based on natural selection. If natural selection didn't exist...how the hell would vacination work anyway?? I mean, bacterial strands who are not resistant to the medicne die and those who are do not die, so in the end only the one's who are resistant will live: voila, natural selection. And then we have to make new medicine etc etc etc.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,15:01    Quote (Assassinator @ Nov. 04 2007,14:58) O dear...well, too bad for him. Our whole westren vacination program is based on natural selection. If natural selection didn't exist...how the hell would vacination work anyway?? I mean, bacterial strands who are not resistant to the medicne die and those who are do not die, so in the end only the one's who are resistant will live: voila, natural selection. And then we have to make new medicine etc etc etc. Try addressing those concerns directly to VMartin. Perhaps you'll have better luck than everyone else. (Or, maybe not.) -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,15:22    I'll be waiting for a reaction from him ;) I've had some experience with people claiming such things, but i'm still hoping he will be different. You may call it naïve, but i'm just trying to keep an open mind ^^ O well, the future will tell us.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,17:47    Re "If natural selection didn't exist... how the hell would vacination work anyway??" Seems to me wouldn't it work a lot better if the bugs didn't have a tendency to develop ways to get around it? Henry

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,21:29    well assassin be prepared for the whole show.  rhetorically he has the ESL thing down to a fine point and he milks it for every last drop of effect including playing dumb.  i love it so!!!  and for the record i think martin is a deep cover troll and it is probably a biologist getting his kicks like making prank calls or jacking off in seventh grade.  so if that is true, and i work from the hypothesis that it is, i'm waiting for the next level of tard.  i hope the actor known as VMartin is working on something new for us, maybe get past the pictures of ants and wasps.  and tell us more about morphic fields, which i know he wants to get into and is scared to. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

VMartin Posts: 525 Joined: Nov. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,00:18    Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 04 2007,13:20) martin did you not pay any attention to the experimental results up thread where bids ate wasps, then avoided them thereafter?  i don't think you were.  perhaps someone will translate it into german for you. Any links to those "experimental results"? Were stressed birds held in small cages where they were feed regularly by dead fatty worms and sometimes living wasps were  offered them instead? Because they did not touch them darwinists came to conclusion birds are avoiding wasps in countryside as well? Give me some neodarwinian links for amusement. I like those experiments. -------------- I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.- Charles Darwin

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,02:51    Quote (VMartin @ Nov. 05 2007,00:18) Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 04 2007,13:20) martin did you not pay any attention to the experimental results up thread where bids ate wasps, then avoided them thereafter?  i don't think you were.  perhaps someone will translate it into german for you. Any links to those "experimental results"? Were stressed birds held in small cages where they were feed regularly by dead fatty worms and sometimes living wasps were  offered them instead? Because they did not touch them darwinists came to conclusion birds are avoiding wasps in countryside as well? Give me some neodarwinian links for amusement. I like those experiments. Heh, VMartin you are the amusing experiment here you know. Just a troll that knows a few more sciency words then the average gutter troll. Go crawl on your belly back to JAD. -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,10:27    you could try here http://www.jstor.org/view/09628452/sp020002/02x0022v/0 here is one where background contrast is important in affecting attack rates http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/12/6/768 here is another one showing decreased attacks and predator learning http://www.springerlink.com/content/l29xg761k82857r4/ Now, the whole point of this is to demonstrate that there is a selective advantage to being noxious or cryptic, even if there is still a mortality risk.  your totalitarian view of selection, ie that if you occasionally get eaten then there is no benefit to being cryptic or noxious, is a strawman.  the real world (you should get out and see it sometime) is hypervariable in time and space.   i'm not interested in your juvenile bitching about experimental design.  if you think that there are operational biases in these experiments, redo them yourself.  otherwise you are just handwaving and ejaculating puerile bafflegab. and you still haven't offered an alternative hypothesis.  troll. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,11:55    Again VMartin, the whole medicinal industry is based on natural selection. I don't get it, natural selection doesn't exist?? It's the most easly spotted and easly observed in nature! You're saying natural fitness does not exist, huh?? You're basicly saying genetics is bullshit, odd. Another example of selection, out Biology Seventh Edition. Scientists had 2 pools with guppies. One pool had killifish as predators who prey on small guppies. Another pool had pike-cichlids as predators, who preyed on large guppies. The guppies in the killifish pool were larger at sexual maturity and the guppies in the piki-cichlid pool were smaller at a sexual mature age. Then they transplanted guppies from the pike-cichlid pool in another pool with just killifish. After 11 years, the average size and age at maturity of guppies in the transplanted population increased compared to those of guppies in control populations. The experiments were conducted by Reznick and Endler. That's natural selection, a transplant like that can happen in nature too. I'll try to look it up on the web.

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,11:59    Ofcourse i'm talking about the offspring, forgot to say that.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,14:14    Quote You're basicly saying genetics is bullshit, odd. Precisely. It's not even clear if VM believes in heredity, or if he does, what on earth he thinks explains it. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,14:23    Haha now THAT would be really funny. Then he's also saying genetic diseases do not exist. How the hell would he support that statement, this is getting funnier by the minute.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,15:01    What's that old saying - to heir is human.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,15:23    Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2007,15:01) What's that old saying - to heir is human. Henry J is here all week, and wants you to try the veal.   -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,15:30    VTard is here to convert people to his backwards world view.  What everyone else here recognizes right away (and eludes him) is that he's currently one of the dumbest and most poorly informed people here.   People are too busy making fun of him and pointing out how stupid his ideas are to bother converting to his fundy, JAD butt sucking viewpoint. -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,15:38    Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Nov. 05 2007,15:30) VTard is here to convert people to his backwards world view. The odd thing, tho, is that he refuses to say what his worldview is, other than "YOU DARWINISTS ALL SUCK!" -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,03:01    Nothing more then rants from him indeed. And still, no answer from him :)

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,03:05    Quote (Assassinator @ Nov. 06 2007,03:01) Nothing more then rants from him indeed. And still, no answer from him :) and it's the same old rant every time, nothing new for weeks from the dancing monkey.

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,06:15    i thought for a while, perhaps he is working on some new material.  but then it never 'materialized' and we got the same posts full of the same crap that he was unloading on EVC and i have pretty much forgotten about Martin having anything intelligent to say. If you understand the papers that are not translated to English, Vicky, please share those points with us.  Since, uh, you are holding all that knowledge, it is your responsibility. If you have criticisms of a scientific theory, it is only reasonable to proffer an alternative theory.  We are waiting for your take.  With bated breath.  And some of us have bait breath. If all you have is a bunch of stupid nonsequitor blithering, by all means, i get a kick out of that too.  It's kinda like going down to the center and beating up retards, though, a guilty pleasure.  But, the world is your oyster. Assassinator, ready to start swearing yet buddy?  Stick around.... -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,06:52    Haha, nah it won't come to that ;) I'll rather watch with a big grin on my face seeing how people totally make fun of themselfs without even realising.

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,09:31    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 05 2007,15:38) Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Nov. 05 2007,15:30) VTard is here to convert people to his backwards world view. The odd thing, tho, is that he refuses to say what his worldview is, other than "YOU DARWINISTS ALL SUCK!" Isn't he from the 6,000 yo earth, godditit camp for intellectual retards? I especially like the "kick me" sign he wears so proudly. Is he also from the global warming is a left wing conspiracy camp as well?  And does he also doubt the relationiship between HIV and AIDS?  I'm trying to get an idea for the depth of his stupid infection. Sorry to be so ignorant about one of our favorite poster boys of stupidity but I seldom read his nonsense. Chris -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,11:15    Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Nov. 06 2007,09:31)   Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 05 2007,15:38)     Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Nov. 05 2007,15:30) VTard is here to convert people to his backwards world view. The odd thing, tho, is that he refuses to say what his worldview is, other than "YOU DARWINISTS ALL SUCK!" Isn't he from the 6,000 yo earth, godditit camp for intellectual retards? Actually, believe it or not, last summer, after weeks of repeated pounding, we at least ascertained that VMartin agrees with the reality-based community on the age of the earth. But it was like pulling teeth to get him to admit this. He appears to have learned a lesson from this, tho, in that he has never made a single positive assertion since. Since then, it's been all "DARWINISMUS SUCKS YOU FOOLISH DARWIST ARE LIKE COMMUNIST HO HO".   Quote Is he also from the global warming is a left wing conspiracy camp as well?  And does he also doubt the relationiship between HIV and AIDS?  I'm trying to get an idea for the depth of his stupid infection. He has made no assertions on global warming or HIV, but no one's asked him. I suspect if you asked him, he would reply with a snide remark about how we came to hold the views we have, but would carefully offer no statement of his own. Seeing the pattern? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

VMartin Posts: 525 Joined: Nov. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,14:12    Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 05 2007,10:27) you could try here http://www.jstor.org/view/09628452/sp020002/02x0022v/0 here is one where background contrast is important in affecting attack rates http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/12/6/768 here is another one showing decreased attacks and predator learning http://www.springerlink.com/content/l29xg761k82857r4/ Now, the whole point of this is to demonstrate that there is a selective advantage to being noxious or cryptic, even if there is still a mortality risk.  your totalitarian view of selection, ie that if you occasionally get eaten then there is no benefit to being cryptic or noxious, is a strawman.  the real world (you should get out and see it sometime) is hypervariable in time and space.   i'm not interested in your juvenile bitching about experimental design.  if you think that there are operational biases in these experiments, redo them yourself.  otherwise you are just handwaving and ejaculating puerile bafflegab. and you still haven't offered an alternative hypothesis.  troll. Good neodarwinian stuff as usually stupido. The last sentences of the third link:       Quote This experiment shows that individual prey can benefit from being aposematic and indicates that individual selection can be a sufficient explanation for the evolution of aposematic coloration. It was concluded that, since the survivorship was 6.4 times higher for the aposematic prey, it could have a detection rate that is correspondingly higher than the cryptic in order for the two forms to have equal fitness. Obviously the author is perplexed by the fact that aposematism do not gave such a "survival advantage" for it's bearer as to win "struggle for life" against cryptic forms. So the more aposematic you are the more you are attacked. One wonder what is the difference of being aposematc, cryptic or normal as to "survival advantage". Btw. my estimation is that 90% of insects are non aposematic and non cryptic species which thrive as well as poisonous aposematics. The second link is off topic too, but the link it gives deals with wasps! "Responses of domestic chicks (Gallus gallus domesticus) to multimodal aposematic signals" Beside the fact what everything are domestic chicks able to eat (we can discuss it if you like) neodarwinists like to use them to support their fantasies about "natural selection". Now they tried to support their fantasy that wasp's buzz deters poor chicks. But behold!       Quote However, the only effect of sound found in analyses of learning was that buzzing prey was attacked more on an overall basis than silent prey. One should ask - why do wasp buzz then? Those that buzz less should have had greater "survival advantage", you know.       Quote This suggests that when the chick had been exposed to a yellow-colored prey, attacks on all prey were inhibited, also those not displaying the signals. That is, the fear of yellow became generalized to the brown prey. So brown and yellow colored prey created something like mullerian mimicry ring, eh? What color of prey did scared chicks eat - if not yellow and brown? I suppose they did't starve to death because of this neodarwinian color experiment? -------------- I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.- Charles Darwin

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,14:20    For the record, Marty, you're still not offering any alternatives to 'Darwinsmus', right? Care to finally tell us whether you believe in common descent? Or still too afraid to do so? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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