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Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2018,15:50    Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 21 2018,14:21) ... Quote ... I previously explained that you are confusing a thought with the abstract concept of a thought. Apparently you didn’t catch that. ... ... Or in short: The map is not the territory.

Ptaylor Posts: 1180 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,02:17    Noted with no further comment, but with added emphasis:     Quote 574 ET November 21, 2018 at 9:52 am Tom English is good at math but very bad at debating and understanding what is being debated. I don’t know Bruce but I will take your word for it. It looks like you have at least two people that will debate you without reverting to insulting you. That is a start and a good start at that. UD link P.S. Happy thanksgiving day to all the Americans here. Edited by Ptaylor on Nov. 22 2018,20:47 -------------- We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.” -PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

Occam's Aftershave Posts: 5287 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,09:34    Quote (Ptaylor @ Nov. 22 2018,02:17) Noted with no further comment, but with added emphasis:         Quote 574 ET November 21, 2018 at 9:52 am Tom English is good at math but very bad at debating and understanding what is being debated. I don’t know Bruce but I will take your word for it. It looks like you have at least two people that will debate you without reverting to insulting you. That is a start and a good start at that. UD link P.S. Happy thanksgiving day to all the Americans here. Eric Holloway is a protégé of Dembski and Marks and acts just like them.  He's an arrogant twat completely ignorant of the life sciences whose ego makes him think he's disproven all of evolutionary biology with his Information Theory equations.  Eric was getting his ass handed to him pretty good over at Peaceful Science so he's abandoned the place in favor of the safe confines of UD. Joke Gallien (ET) of course got banned from PS for his potty mouth, then tried to sneak back in as a sock and was banned again.  It surprises no one Joke is now sucking up to Eric.  The two are hotly engaged in a mutual mental masturbation-fest. -------------- "CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way" "All the evidence supports Creation baraminology" "If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic." "Jews and Christians are Muslims." - Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,10:01    Quote Are Angels “Naturalistic”? November 22, 2018 Posted by johnnyb under Mind, Science The science never stops at UD.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,10:22    Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 22 2018,05:01) Quote Are Angels “Naturalistic”? November 22, 2018 Posted by johnnyb under Mind, Science The science never stops at UD. I do wonder how anyone would go about testing the hypothesis.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,11:19    Put a pin under a microscope? Maybe even an electron microscope?

Jkrebs Posts: 590 Joined: Sep. 2004 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,13:12    Note especially the last line! OldAndrew to Stephen: Quote That’s elaborate question-begging. In a discussion about whether thoughts are material or immaterial, you assert that they are immaterial because that’s the proper definition. How utterly circular. Did you think no one noticed? People are smarter than you think. Your logic appears to have run its course, while your rhetoric and self-congratulation is a bottomless pit. link

KevinB Posts: 525 Joined: April 2013 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,13:15    Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 22 2018,11:19) Put a pin under a microscope? Maybe even an electron microscope? Only if the Angel of Incidence is equal to the Angel of Refraction. Edited by stevestory on Nov. 22 2018,17:09

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,14:05    Quote (KevinB @ Nov. 22 2018,11:15) Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 22 2018,11:19) Put a pin under a microscope? Maybe even an electron microscope? Only if the Angel of Incidence is equal to the Angel of Refraction. potw -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,14:08    Quote (Jkrebs @ Nov. 22 2018,08:12) Note especially the last line! OldAndrew to Stephen: Quote That’s elaborate question-begging. In a discussion about whether thoughts are material or immaterial, you assert that they are immaterial because that’s the proper definition. How utterly circular. Did you think no one noticed? People are smarter than you think. Your logic appears to have run its course, while your rhetoric and self-congratulation is a bottomless pit. link Who was that masked man?

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,16:26    Quote 7 OldAndrewNovember 22, 2018 at 1:31 pm Quote One of my main criticisms of methodological naturalism is that the word “naturalism” seems to not have any real content. It merely means “whatever the author wants to include in science” and non-naturalism means “whatever the author doesn’t want to include in science”. This is also my observation. If we say that a thing has the characteristics of being designed, it’s often asserted that it’s an appeal to something non-natural, as if unknown = unnatural. But when the movement of galaxies appears to influenced by otherwise undetectable “dark matter”, that’s not unnatural. Why? It’s arbitrary. To me that renders the term useless. There’s what we observe and what we don’t observe. Calling something “non-natural” just asserts that we don’t observe it and can’t ever observe it. But we can’t logically say that if something we don’t observe existed, it would be forever unobservable. How could we ever know that? Sometimes we infer the existence of what we can’t observe based on effects. We study those effects and try to find what it is that we don’t see. (As an example, we look for planets we don’t see based on observed gravitational effects.) That’s also what ID is (or at least what it’s supposed to be, if one can separate it from the politics and religion it wears like a ball and chain.) Calling something “non-natural” is an attempt to short-circuit the process by arbitrarily saying that we can look for some causes but not others. It’s okay to look for dark matter but looking for the designer of a thing arbitrarily isn’t science. linky

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,18:07    Quote 104 OldAndrewNovember 22, 2018 at 5:07 pm SB, Does your hard drive weigh more when it’s got more files on it? The brain is not a hard drive but it’s obvious that a medium which contains material representations of abstractions doesn’t necessarily need to change dimensions or weight depending on what it stores. Quote What are the physical dimensions of truth? Your rhetorical nonsense never ends. Why would the abstract concept of truth have dimensions? We’re talking about thoughts, which are representations of abstractions. Representations of abstractions can and do exist materially. I don’t know why you’re digging up what we’ve been over and pretending it’s new. Perhaps you’re hoping that people will only read the last post. Whatever makes you happy. Quote Does the brain become more crowded with each new piece of acquired wisdom? How many thoughts can the brain contain until the skull runs out of room? Does truth contain more molecules than opinions? I was wondering how long it would take the argument from ignorance to come out. Congratulations on waiting this long. This amounts to saying that the brain can’t contain representations of abstractions because we don’t know how it does. Would you like me to explain to you exactly how the brain stored thoughts about abstract concepts? I’d be happy to, as soon as you tell me how the immaterial mind does so, and exactly how it’s impeded by dementia and schizophrenia within the material brain. And when a schizophrenic thinks that people are conspiring against him, does that originate with the brain or the supposed immaterial mind? I happen to believe that the human brain is designed. I also believe that its designer is smart enough to build something that can produce and maintain representations of abstract concepts. You’re in the rather odd position of claiming that the designer lacks such capability or is prevented from doing so by flimsy logic that falls apart under scrutiny. Not only does your bad logic force you to come up with complicated explanations for things like dementia and schizophrenia (although you haven’t, still a big open question) but it also forces you to place limitations on God. Check your math. linky

Texas Teach Posts: 2084 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,20:11    Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 22 2018,18:07) Quote 104 OldAndrewNovember 22, 2018 at 5:07 pm SB, Does your hard drive weigh more when it’s got more files on it? The brain is not a hard drive but it’s obvious that a medium which contains material representations of abstractions doesn’t necessarily need to change dimensions or weight depending on what it stores. Quote What are the physical dimensions of truth? Your rhetorical nonsense never ends. Why would the abstract concept of truth have dimensions? We’re talking about thoughts, which are representations of abstractions. Representations of abstractions can and do exist materially. I don’t know why you’re digging up what we’ve been over and pretending it’s new. Perhaps you’re hoping that people will only read the last post. Whatever makes you happy. Quote Does the brain become more crowded with each new piece of acquired wisdom? How many thoughts can the brain contain until the skull runs out of room? Does truth contain more molecules than opinions? I was wondering how long it would take the argument from ignorance to come out. Congratulations on waiting this long. This amounts to saying that the brain can’t contain representations of abstractions because we don’t know how it does. Would you like me to explain to you exactly how the brain stored thoughts about abstract concepts? I’d be happy to, as soon as you tell me how the immaterial mind does so, and exactly how it’s impeded by dementia and schizophrenia within the material brain. And when a schizophrenic thinks that people are conspiring against him, does that originate with the brain or the supposed immaterial mind? I happen to believe that the human brain is designed. I also believe that its designer is smart enough to build something that can produce and maintain representations of abstract concepts. You’re in the rather odd position of claiming that the designer lacks such capability or is prevented from doing so by flimsy logic that falls apart under scrutiny. Not only does your bad logic force you to come up with complicated explanations for things like dementia and schizophrenia (although you haven’t, still a big open question) but it also forces you to place limitations on God. Check your math. linky I’m trained as a chemist not an engineer, but I think the hard drive probably does weigh differently depending on how full it is.  Whether that amount is measurable in any practical way, I have no idea.  And I would think that the brain would be similar, though how you could measure it in situ would be an interesting question. -------------- "Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr "I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

Jkrebs Posts: 590 Joined: Sep. 2004 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,21:12    Why? It's all just on or off bits, and I don't think a magnetized bit weighs more or less than an unmagnetized one. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2018,21:52    m = E/c**2 Although I've no idea what E is for "on" vs "off", and presumably it depends on the storage medium being used. But I wonder if any difference could be easily swamped by a negligible difference in temperature.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 23 2018,17:49    Quote EricMH I would also add that I believe Dr. Swamidass to... – Does information theory support design in... EricMH @KF, hmm, that is a very interesting point. So even... – Logic and First Principles: How could... EricMH @ET, insults like that are not good form. It's fair... – Does information theory support design in... kairosfocus EMH, I think the context is scientific induction regarding a... – Logic and First Principles: How could... ET Right- that is why I introduced him (Joshua) to Isaac... – Does information theory support design in... EricMH @ET, yes, you are correct. As a software developer, the... – Does information theory support design in... EricMH Dr. Swamidass is really committed to the idea that science... – Does information theory support design in... ET But anyway... In "Signature in the Cell" Meyer defines "information"... – Does information theory support design in... ET As a theistic evolutionist Joshua is a closet IDist. And... – Does information theory support design in... EricMH @KF, I agree your analysis works from an intuitive standpoint.... – Logic and First Principles: How could... kairosfocus EMH, pardon but the world is not a sequence, here... – Logic and First Principles: How could... Tom Robbins Not scientific? Rooted in social norms? It's rooted in whether... – Nature's war on sex EricMH @KF, ok, I think I get it. Sounds like the... – Logic and First Principles: How could... kairosfocus News, life being written into the laws of the universe... – If life might be “programmed into”... EricMH Also seems ironic that a forum titled "Peaceful Science" is... – Does information theory support design in... EricMH Something I would like to see over at PS is... – Does information theory support design in... kairosfocus EMH, Avi Sion speaks to the logical import of suggesting... – Logic and First Principles: How could... EricMH @Mung & ET, yes, Dr. Swamidass originally told me he'd... – Does information theory support design in... EricMH This premise does not seem especially strong: > A uniformly... – Logic and First Principles: How could... kairosfocus Jawa, it seems logic and its first principles are at... – Logic and First Principles: How could... ET Joshua is also big on forming his own definition of... – Does information theory support design in... fuckin place is New Derp City right now.

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 23 2018,17:52    Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 23 2018,15:49) (snip) fuckin place is New Derp City right now. So business as usual, then. -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 23 2018,17:55    @Krebs @Teach: Short answer is the weight doesn't change. Long answer is the weight can be slightly more, the same, or slightly less, depending on how information is stored. A blank piece of paper weighs slightly less than one with a bunch of writing on it, but a blank punch card weighs more than one with information on it. While there are physics reasons that bits require minimal entropy, there's no physics requirement for a bit to weigh anything.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2018,15:06    Yep, it would depend on the storage medium. In a medium based on rearrangement rather than adding or removing (whether matter or energy), there would be zero average net difference.

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2018,16:08    Quote (Jkrebs @ Nov. 22 2018,19:12) Why? It's all just on or off bits, and I don't think a magnetized bit weighs more or less than an unmagnetized one. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please. I think you are correct. But I am old enough to remember pnuch cards, and paper tape readers. In those examples the "information adding" would be weight reducing. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lethean Posts: 292 Joined: Jan. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2018,09:40    Quote (fnxtr @ Nov. 21 2018,15:01)   Quote (Jkrebs @ Nov. 21 2018,10:27)     Quote (fnxtr @ Nov. 21 2018,12:26)     Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 21 2018,10:03)       Quote 3 Ed GeorgeNovember 21, 2018 at 11:01 am       Quote He adds, “I didn’t use to believe it, but I’ve come to see that the single most powerful force for dissolving religious faith in the West was, and still is, Darwinism.” I tend to agree with DaveS. I don’t think that there is a significant decline in the belief in God, or at lest in some higher power. What has declined is the following of various organized religions. And, frankly, the people most responsible for this are the hierarchy in the various organized religions. Whether it’s the outright racism and homophobia of groups like the Westboro church, the pedophilia cover-ups of the Catholic church, or the blind literal interpretation and judgmental attitude of many of the evangelical groups, many people see the corruption, racism and homophobia that can creep into organized religion. Barry and the Homophobes probly aren't going to like this. Worst. Band. Name. Ever. fnxtr gets some kind of award for today: one of those "win the internet" things. Points to stevestory for the assist/setup. Track List Ban Hammer Blues No Longer With Us Intellectual Crybars Just Like Jesus Would The Wedgie Stops Here Darwin Did All The Things Bonus Track No Longer With Us [Val-uh-Dick-torian Remix] Brought to you by Objectivley Morally Bankrupt Records A division of Who, What, Where, When (LLC) ©2018 three POTWs this week. I think that might be a record. -ST Edited by stevestory on Nov. 25 2018,11:56 -------------- "So I'm a pretty unusual guy and it's not stupidity that has gotten me where I am. It's brilliance." "My brain is one of the very few independent thinking brains that you've ever met. And that's a thing of wonder to you and since you don't understand it you criticize it." ~Dave Hawkins~

Tony M Nyphot Posts: 491 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2018,10:52    Quote (Lethean @ Nov. 25 2018,08:40) Track List Ban Hammer Blues No Longer With Us Intellectual Crybars Just Like Jesus Would The Wedgie Stops Here Darwin Did All The Things Bonus Track No Longer With Us [Val-uh-Dick-torian Remix] Brought to you by Objectivley Morally Bankrupt Records A division of Who, What, Where, When (LLC) ©2018 ^PotW^ Bonus Hidden Track Immaterial Materialism (Not In My Head) -------------- "I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK "You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2018,12:28    I am in awe. -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2018,13:25    Quote (fnxtr @ Nov. 25 2018,11:28) I am in awe. AAAwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww...

KevinB Posts: 525 Joined: April 2013 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2018,11:58    Quote (fnxtr @ Nov. 25 2018,12:28) I am in awe. Is that the one in Kentucky?

KevinB Posts: 525 Joined: April 2013 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2018,12:43    Quote (Jkrebs @ Nov. 22 2018,21:12) Why? It's all just on or off bits, and I don't think a magnetized bit weighs more or less than an unmagnetized one. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please. I suspect that the whole argument is unsound. An "ordinary" hard disk always has the same number of bits; writing data just changes the ones and zeros. (Are we actually dealing with magnetised-vs-unmagnetised, rather than the polarity of magnetisation?) We are back with the heads-and-tails argument. Every pattern of ones-and-zeros contains the same amount of data; it's just that some patterns have more "meaning" than others. Consider a single bit of a ferrite-core memory. The one/zero distinction is the polarity of magnetisation. Energy is required to push the magnetisation around the hysteresis loop, but that energy ends up as heat in the mass as the ferrite, not as any change in the energy of magnetisation.

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2018,15:47    Batshitcrazy77 laying down the gauntlet, if not actually threatening violence Quote Ed George, if you don’t think that “pro-life is a strongly held religious belief” that should be given the full protection of the law perhaps you would like to debate the details of the matter a little more personally in my basement so as to give me the chance to convince you that you yourself are a deeply ‘religious’ pro-life advocate? Far more so than you think. Or is he just inviting EG to his basement for a little Bible reading? Deeply crazy

Texas Teach Posts: 2084 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2018,16:14    Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Nov. 26 2018,15:47) Batshitcrazy77 laying down the gauntlet, if not actually threatening violence Quote Ed George, if you don’t think that “pro-life is a strongly held religious belief” that should be given the full protection of the law perhaps you would like to debate the details of the matter a little more personally in my basement so as to give me the chance to convince you that you yourself are a deeply ‘religious’ pro-life advocate? Far more so than you think. Or is he just inviting EG to his basement for a little Bible reading? Deeply crazy Being trapped listening to Bat Shit in a small space seems like the last thing that would convince me that life was worthwhile. -------------- "Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr "I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2018,20:06    Quote (Texas Teach @ Nov. 26 2018,14:14) Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Nov. 26 2018,15:47) Batshitcrazy77 laying down the gauntlet, if not actually threatening violence   Quote Ed George, if you don’t think that “pro-life is a strongly held religious belief” that should be given the full protection of the law perhaps you would like to debate the details of the matter a little more personally in my basement so as to give me the chance to convince you that you yourself are a deeply ‘religious’ pro-life advocate? Far more so than you think. Or is he just inviting EG to his basement for a little Bible reading? Deeply crazy Being trapped listening to Bat Shit in a small space seems like the last thing that would convince me that life was worthwhile. (shrug) The belief may be such. You are certainly free to  believe whatever you want. -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2018,14:11    Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Nov. 26 2018,16:47) Batshitcrazy77 laying down the gauntlet, if not actually threatening violence Quote Ed George, if you don’t think that “pro-life is a strongly held religious belief” that should be given the full protection of the law perhaps you would like to debate the details of the matter a little more personally in my basement so as to give me the chance to convince you that you yourself are a deeply ‘religious’ pro-life advocate? Far more so than you think. Or is he just inviting EG to his basement for a little Bible reading? Deeply crazy And here we are once again, at the ultimate end-game of religion. "Believe what I tell you to believe, or I will kill you." Same as it ever was. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

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