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  Topic: A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin, As big as the poop that does not look< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,03:49   

Quote
And I'm simultaneously showing ChemiCat the proper use of single or double "Duh?" not "dur" or even worse "again dur".


The difference is three thousand miles of ocean. To help you get your wife to read any Pratchett novel about the trolls to you.

Or learn the difference in usage of "boot and "trunk.

After saying that I see you don't deny my point so you accept evolution as the best explanation. Goodbye "intelligent agent".

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,05:24   

The question isn't whether a plant can have an action potential; we know of a fair number of such phenomena, starting with Darwin's research into the movement of plants. Drosera and Dionaea have action potentials with fast enough time courses to be useful in the capture of insect prey. There is even a known action potential in Petunia hybrida concerning compatible pollination events, though the time course there is considerably longer, with several potentials of between 10 and 20 mV occurring in the first 30 minutes post-pollination, and potentials reaching 40 mV between 150 to 180 minutes post-pollination.

Historical overview on plant neurobiology

Paper showing pollination event action potential in Petunia hybrida

What is at question here is whether the Petunia species is generating a positive-going action potential for a bee landing event based on the evidence of the cited paper. This does not appear to be the case to me. The researchers demonstrate the prevalence of positive charge in bees, the resting potential of 0 V in the flowers, and the electrical potential in the flower around the time of a bee visit. They exclude a wound-response type mechanism. They cite two papers on electrostatic charge and pollination, which note that pollination is enhanced by a potential difference between pollinator and flower. If the flower is producing a fast positive-going action potential in response to a bee visit, that essentially would reduce the effectiveness of pollen transfer between flower and bee, and would be counter to the position of the two cited papers. The authors themselves seem to ascribe a simpler explanation: "Charge transfer to the flower resulted in a positive change in electric potential recorded in the stem."

We know that charge transfer works, and works quickly. We don't know from this research that there is a mechanism for a relatively fast action potential (much closer in speed to that seen in Drosera than known electrical responses in Petunia and other less specialized plants, though far slower than animal neural action potentials). If one did exist, it would be producing an effect counter to efficient pollination.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,06:53   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Jan. 09 2016,19:58)
I had no idea that there was so much evidence in my favor.

As I suspected it was probably not "passive transfer of charge from bee to flower" and was more likely an action potential.

There can be nothing but evidence in your favor when your position remains ill-defined, ad hoc, and generalized past the point where it would be informative.
Your vaunted "premise" is telling -- how could there be evidence against it?
When you perform cargo-cult rituals of appropriation of products you do not understand, the results of processes you do not understand, applied to data you do not understand, you do nothing of value to anyone.
Crows are notorious for collecting 'shiny objects'.  You appear to be rather ill-shaped crow, treating the results of science and the actual-factual of the real world as 'shiny objects'.  You have thoroughly inflated your own sense of your importance by the number of shiny objects you have found.  
No one else cares.  You merely gather, you do not curate.
You do not elucidate nor do you illuminate.  Still less do you connect or explain.
All the value, with no exception, comes from others.
Your contribution is the excrement you toss about, mal-labeled as "theory", as "explanatory".
Your work ranges from banal to insane, a route that does not even pass through sanity nor science.
Yet you believe that the real work of real scientists (not real-scientists, who are not real) provide real support for your surreal fragmentary outbursts.
It would be tragic were it not so transparently absurd.

You fall to the simple logical truth that false implies both true and false.  From a false premise, any conclusion can follow.  
Given that your entire output is false, where it is meaningful, it implies everything.  Sadly for you, that means it is useless.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,07:03   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Jan. 10 2016,02:30)
...
It's waterproof in the sense that it does not turn to muck when wet. It would otherwise be a pulpy mess by the time it's saturated with water color paint. The only thing that it cannot resist to is the pigment that gets left behind, after the water evaporates out. Other than some minor shrinkage the paper is unchanged.

So words mean what you need them to mean at any given moment.  "Evidence" is anything you can contort to fit your radically incomplete and generally incoherent views, whatever they happen to be at any given moment.
Your "mental processes" are clearly substandard, to put it mildly.
Your casual unconcern with precision of meaning, of description, of logical interconnection, is your constant downfall.
With the wildly generalized and imprecise terminology you use, everything is reduced to such an unbounded fog that whatever is needed can be pulled out or hidden away, at the need of the current drivers of your agenda -- although to call it an agenda is to aggrandize it far beyond its actual merit or motive.
I repeat -- good lord you're stupid.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,09:21   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 10 2016,05:24)
The question isn't whether a plant can have an action potential; we know of a fair number of such phenomena, starting with Darwin's research into the movement of plants. Drosera and Dionaea have action potentials with fast enough time courses to be useful in the capture of insect prey. There is even a known action potential in Petunia hybrida concerning compatible pollination events, though the time course there is considerably longer, with several potentials of between 10 and 20 mV occurring in the first 30 minutes post-pollination, and potentials reaching 40 mV between 150 to 180 minutes post-pollination.

Historical overview on plant neurobiology

Paper showing pollination event action potential in Petunia hybrida

What is at question here is whether the Petunia species is generating a positive-going action potential for a bee landing event based on the evidence of the cited paper. This does not appear to be the case to me. The researchers demonstrate the prevalence of positive charge in bees, the resting potential of 0 V in the flowers, and the electrical potential in the flower around the time of a bee visit. They exclude a wound-response type mechanism. They cite two papers on electrostatic charge and pollination, which note that pollination is enhanced by a potential difference between pollinator and flower. If the flower is producing a fast positive-going action potential in response to a bee visit, that essentially would reduce the effectiveness of pollen transfer between flower and bee, and would be counter to the position of the two cited papers. The authors themselves seem to ascribe a simpler explanation: "Charge transfer to the flower resulted in a positive change in electric potential recorded in the stem."

We know that charge transfer works, and works quickly. We don't know from this research that there is a mechanism for a relatively fast action potential (much closer in speed to that seen in Drosera than known electrical responses in Petunia and other less specialized plants, though far slower than animal neural action potentials). If one did exist, it would be producing an effect counter to efficient pollination.

Wow!

 
Quote
Paper showing pollination event action potential in Petunia hybrida

The present investigation demonstrated that each phase of pollen-stigma recognition events, germination and growth of pollen tubes within the style have its characteristic pattern of
electric changes which was species specific and depended on compatibility of the cross.
......

Comparison of these two ways of the prevention of self- pollination can give additional information on the nature of signalling between the stigma and the ovary.


Or in other words:
Anita Ward ~ Ring My Bell
youtube.com/watch?v=kU9faERbno0]https

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,09:37   

That's right, Gary.  When all else fails, resort to yet another stupid music video.
How compelling.

Pathetic, and incredibly stupid.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,19:35   

Quote (NoName @ Jan. 10 2016,09:37)
That's right, Gary.  When all else fails, resort to yet another stupid music video.
How compelling.

Pathetic, and incredibly stupid.

Get a clue!
Fertilization: A Sweet Love Story
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....84v3ZEs

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,21:23   

Quote (NoName @ Jan. 10 2016,09:37)
That's right, Gary.  When all else fails, resort to yet another stupid music video.
How compelling.

Pathetic, and incredibly stupid.


From Gary,  
Quote
Get a clue!
Fertilization: A Sweet Love Story
[URL=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....84v3ZEs



Lather, rinse, repeat.

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,21:51   

Quote (N.Wells @ Jan. 10 2016,21:23)
Quote (NoName @ Jan. 10 2016,09:37)
That's right, Gary.  When all else fails, resort to yet another stupid music video.
How compelling.

Pathetic, and incredibly stupid.


From Gary,  
Quote
Get a clue!
Fertilization: A Sweet Love Story
[URL=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....84v3ZEs



Lather, rinse, repeat.

You'd think he could guess a better strategy.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,22:01   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Jan. 10 2016,21:51)
You'd think he could guess a better strategy.

Double Fertilization in Angiosperms?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUjVHUf4d1I

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,22:21   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 10 2016,05:24)
The question isn't whether a plant can have an action potential; we know of a fair number of such phenomena, starting with Darwin's research into the movement of plants. Drosera and Dionaea have action potentials with fast enough time courses to be useful in the capture of insect prey.

Action Potentials from Venus Fly Traps?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bNS0o4Z3dk

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2016,06:05   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Jan. 10 2016,22:21)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 10 2016,05:24)
The question isn't whether a plant can have an action potential; we know of a fair number of such phenomena, starting with Darwin's research into the movement of plants. Drosera and Dionaea have action potentials with fast enough time courses to be useful in the capture of insect prey.

Action Potentials from Venus Fly Traps?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bNS0o4Z3dk

The genus Drosera have the common name sundews, and Dionea are known as Venus fly traps.

An early work on Venus fly traps mentioning the electrical behavior.

The cited work on electrical behavior in Venus fly traps

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2016,07:10   

And as always, none of this is entailed by nor entails Gary's "theory".

There's the kicker, Gary.  You have no evidence,  you cannot leach any evidence off actual science, music videos are not evidence.  You've got nothing.
If ever there were a person with negative potential it would be you.

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2016,14:57   

Quote
If ever there were a person with negative potential it would be you.


Does that still apply if Gaulin ascends a step ladder?

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2016,15:11   

Quote (ChemiCat @ Jan. 11 2016,15:57)
Quote
If ever there were a person with negative potential it would be you.


Does that still apply if Gaulin ascends a step ladder?

Well, then he might have potential that could be wasted.
Hard to see it as positive, though.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,03:00   

Another breakthrough!

www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/biological-mishap-six-hundred-million-years-ago-created-this-anthropocene

And I just happen to be using OpenOffice to draw a poster. Even where the Royal Society does not need it I want to try updating a number of illustrations, all in one place.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,04:45   

Quote
Another breakthrough!

www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/biological-mishap-six-hundred-million-years-ago-created-this-anthropocene


I seem to remember many pages ago asking you about single-cell clusters, Gaulin.

You refused to answer and moved the goalposts. If the concept was in your "not-a-theory" it would have been easy to point it out. It wasn't there.

Now you have the gall to claim that it is. This is not how science is done. It is however how the bible was constructed.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,06:12   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Jan. 12 2016,03:00)
Another breakthrough!

www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/biological-mishap-six-hundred-million-years-ago-created-this-anthropocene

Delusional again.  They identified A MUTATION that appears to have been crucial in the "failure to separate after reproduction" model for the origin of multicellular animal life.  You have excluded mutations from guesses: "The logical construct of this theory does not have or need a “natural selection” variable. Intelligent living things "learn" (not select/selected) and can take a "guess” (not mutate) and in its lifetime physically “develop” (not evolve)."  

The article is consistent with evolutionary processes setting the stage for the rise of intelligence, not intelligence causing evolution.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,06:34   

Quote (N.Wells @ Jan. 12 2016,06:12)
They identified A MUTATION that appears....

I seriously don't have time for an argument over semantics, or need another scientifically useless evolution did-it answer.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,07:08   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Jan. 12 2016,07:34)
Quote (N.Wells @ Jan. 12 2016,06:12)
They identified A MUTATION that appears....

I seriously don't have time for an argument over semantics, or need another scientifically useless evolution did-it answer.

Yet you have more than enough time to find and post irrelevant music videos, attempt to parasitize legitimate research, mis-represent the work of others as well as your own, and whine constantly.
Your priorities are just a tiny bit confused.

Not as confused as your assertions, but certainly trending in that direction.
The argument isn't over semantics per se.  Still less is it an attempt to end discussion with "evolution did it" as any sort of final answer.  What you appear to miss is that our concerns are with how evolution 'did it'.
Your "theory" lacks answers to 'how' questions.  One of many problems with it.  This is a large part of what we mean when we say your "theory" has zero explanatory power.
"Evolution did it" is not the explanation, it's the summary.
"Some stuff in the universe is best explained by intelligent cause" isn't even a summary.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,07:10   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Jan. 12 2016,06:34)
Quote (N.Wells @ Jan. 12 2016,06:12)
They identified A MUTATION that appears....

I seriously don't have time for an argument over semantics, or need another scientifically useless evolution did-it answer.

That sort of response is why no one will ever take your proposals seriously.  Either do science properly or be ridiculous, your choice.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,07:48   

Quote (N.Wells @ Jan. 12 2016,08:10)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Jan. 12 2016,06:34)
Quote (N.Wells @ Jan. 12 2016,06:12)
They identified A MUTATION that appears....

I seriously don't have time for an argument over semantics, or need another scientifically useless evolution did-it answer.

That sort of response is why no one will ever take your proposals seriously.  Either do science properly or be ridiculous, your choice.

Given that there is no room in Gary's "theory" for choice, isn't it rather a matter of "your guess"?

Not that failure to account for choice is the greatest of his omissions wrt intelligence, but it is hardly his least either.

I think we can safely say that Gary is fascinated by intelligence because he's never experienced it.

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,09:21   

Quote
I seriously don't have time for an argument over semantics, or need another scientifically useless evolution did-it answer.


That's all your "not-a-theory" is, a romp through semantics, Gaulin.

As has been pointed out by NoName and N.Wells there is no explanatory element to your "theory", nothing other than goddidit. An even worse answer than evolution did it. You have a mass of contradictory assertions and a poor Space Invaders type "model".

For the sake of your long-suffering wife and family seek professional help for your obsessions.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,10:34   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Jan. 12 2016,01:00)
And I just happen to be using OpenOffice to draw a poster. Even where the Royal Society does not need it I want to try updating a number of illustrations, all in one place.

He's playing with the big kids now.  As arguably the most prestigious scientific organisation in the world, the Royal Society probably gets more correspondence from cranks, poseurs and the mentally ill than just about anyone.  So, given the competition, will Gary's poster:
(a) go straight in the bin?
(b) get passed around the office for a giggle before it goes in the bin?

I look forward to hearing from Gary about how the inevitable thank-you-for-your-submission-we-threw-it-in-the-bin form letter constitutes Royal Society approbation of his "theory."

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,12:15   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 12 2016,10:34)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Jan. 12 2016,01:00)
And I just happen to be using OpenOffice to draw a poster. Even where the Royal Society does not need it I want to try updating a number of illustrations, all in one place.

He's playing with the big kids now.  As arguably the most prestigious scientific organisation in the world, the Royal Society probably gets more correspondence from cranks, poseurs and the mentally ill than just about anyone.  So, given the competition, will Gary's poster:
(a) go straight in the bin?
(b) get passed around the office for a giggle before it goes in the bin?

I look forward to hearing from Gary about how the inevitable thank-you-for-your-submission-we-threw-it-in-the-bin form letter constitutes Royal Society approbation of his "theory."

There will be his standard observation regarding people who politely ignore him: "They had no problem with it."

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,13:23   

My predicted outcome:

Quote
Dear Mr Gaulin,

Thank you for your submission.  We doubt that you can imagine the level of excitement with which we received it!  Comments were made around the office, and it even caused some stimulating speculations down at the pub!   Unfortunately we receive so many high-quality submissions that we are unable to use your submission at this time.  In fact, we are so busy that we should apologize in advance in case we prove unable to respond to any further communications from you in the future.

Yours sincerely,
etc., etc.


Gary's interpretation: "They said "Thank you"!  They said "high quality"!!  My theory is correct because the Royal Society wrote me a nice letter - it's peer review!"


(More likely, he'll just get the "unfortunately" sentence.)

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,16:58   

Translation from the Gaulinese:

"I seriously don't have time for...": Please quit pointing out evidence that I'm wrong.  Somewhere deep down I feel really embarrassed when you do this, and it nibbles away at the facade of confidence I try to maintain.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 13 2016,23:29   

Oh sure I have time galore to spend answering to political hacks. Maybe I should just take a few years off and join the evolutionary theory traveling circus. After London all the other "big kids" will need to prove that they're not scientifically irrelevant, by having the circus come to their city.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 14 2016,04:04   

So you must be one of the "little kids" who, when told there is no Santa Claus, answers ad nauseam "is too!" despite all the evidence against you.

Time to grow up, Gaulin, and realise that you have wasted years of your life. Seek help.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 14 2016,06:34   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Jan. 14 2016,00:29)
Oh sure I have time galore to spend answering to political hacks.

Ah, at last an explanation for the music videos and digressions into your depressingly boring personal life.
Those are the things you have time galore to spend on rather than addressing the near-infinity of problems in your "theory", your scientific irrelevance, the countless unanswered objections to your drivel or anything even remotely useful to humanity.
Quote
Maybe I should just take a few years off and join the evolutionary theory traveling circus. After London all the other "big kids" will need to prove that they're not scientifically irrelevant, by having the circus come to their city.

But Gary, you are scientifically irrelevant.
In every single respect.

You have no data.
You have no evidence.
You have no logic.
You have nothing original.
You have nothing insightful.
You have nothing suggestive of possible research directions.

You are not even a direct parasite on science.  Metaphorically speaking, you are the mite on the tick that parasitizes the body of science.
No, actually, you are the virus attacking the bacterium on the mite on the tick that parasitizes pseudo-science while it attempts to come to grips with science.
That is the  level of scientific irrelevance you have achieved.

  
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