RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (21) < ... 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 17 ... >   
  Topic: Challenge to Evolutionists< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,08:49   

Quote

"falling out of favor" is not science....it's opinion and guesswork.


Actually, opinion and guesswork is a good description of science, when one adds the ingredient of paying attention to the empirical evidence. The basis of science is intersubjective experience and criticism, which is that way because personal sensory experience is subjective, but we have no other means of approaching objectivity. Making sure that the same experience holds for many observers tends to eliminate the subjectiveness of the experience, and get us closer to what we assume is an objective view of the phenomena in question.

For the particular case in question, the supplantation of Lamarckism with Mendelianism, one notes that Mendelian geneticists provided copious quantities of experimental evidence demonstrating that their ideas had predictive power. This is precisely what Lamarckian ideas of inheritance lacked. Opinion and guesswork? Sure, but backed by lots and lots of generations of various short-generation time animals and plants showing that Mendelian ideas of inheritance worked and explained the phenomena of interest.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:02   

If supersport is a troll, as seems the case, I think we can safely say that Creationists may be stupid, but not so stupid as to want to come here.  That leaves as an option a cruising posse of AtBc people, who would descend upon some place with a creationist or two, and demonstrate the errors of their ways, then leave again.

  
supersport



Posts: 158
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:02   

there are actually subjects on here that have nothing to do with my original challenge....most of it actually is off topic from my first post.
------------------
1) Show me one instance where science transplanted a group of animals to a new environment and observed them for multiple generations to see if new traits quickly/purposefully/nonrandomly emerged.

2) Show me one instance of science testing/disproving lamarckian-style inheritance.

3) Show me one instance (controlled experiment) where science set out to prove/disprove darwinism on real animals.

4) Show me one instance where science dated a dinosaur bone with carbon 14 to rule out recent existence.

5) Show me one instance of an evolutionist (any book, any website) admitting that the change we see in the field and fossil record may not be "evolution" (aka RMNS)at all, but simply individual organisms' ability to utilize their built-in genetic diversity to adapt themselves to their local environment – that selection may not have anything to do with phenotypic change over time.

6) Show me even one instance of the National media coming out with a story that questioned Darwinism or explained the other side of the debate.

7) Show me one instance of a genetic mistake (random mutation/copying error) that that created a new, beneficial body part.

8.) Show me one instance where an accumulation of mutations created a new species.

9) Show me one instance of a mutation that formed a new organ or limb.

10.)  Show me one example ever documented in the history of science that has created a new, beneficial, selectable morphological addition to an existing body part.    .    (a mutation that alters physical, outward appearance in a beneficial way. )

11) Show me one instance of natural selection proven by controlled experiment. Heck, show me one controlled experiment attempting to test natural selection at all, regardless of the outcome.

12) Show me one instance of a new gene forming that codes a new protein and performs a new function.

13) Show me one instance of a new developmental pathway forming.

14) Show me in the fossil record evidence of millions of bizarre, experimental phenotypic freaks and monstrosities that no-doubt had to occur if variation arose randomly. Or, Show me any from today. (I'm not talking defects...I'm talking new body parts that appear in weird places for no reason...)

15) Explain to me why we don’t see humans or dogs or alligators with accidental wings forming. (If the possibility was there for random mutations to produce wings on reptiles or mammals in the past, then it should also be happening now.)

16) show me a set of skeletons that transition from ape to man by way of small modifications.

17) Show me how a cell could evolve randomly:

Carl Sagan, the modern-day evolutionary spokesperson has admitted: "The information content of a simple cell (is) comparable to about a hundred million pages of the Encyclopaedia Britannica."

18. Show me some instances of mutations that add information to the genome:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi3605g

Bonus question: (25 pts extra credit) -- Show me the origin of anything.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:03   

details shmetails, rat tails, just shut up before I cut them off with a carving knife!  You'll never convince me!  Never!  Never!

[/supersport]

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
supersport



Posts: 158
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:05   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 19 2007,08:49)
 
Quote

"falling out of favor" is not science....it's opinion and guesswork.


Actually, opinion and guesswork is a good description of science, when one adds the ingredient of paying attention to the empirical evidence. The basis of science is intersubjective experience and criticism, which is that way because personal sensory experience is subjective, but we have no other means of approaching objectivity. Making sure that the same experience holds for many observers tends to eliminate the subjectiveness of the experience, and get us closer to what we assume is an objective view of the phenomena in question.

For the particular case in question, the supplantation of Lamarckism with Mendelianism, one notes that Mendelian geneticists provided copious quantities of experimental evidence demonstrating that their ideas had predictive power. This is precisely what Lamarckian ideas of inheritance lacked. Opinion and guesswork? Sure, but backed by lots and lots of generations of various short-generation time animals and plants showing that Mendelian ideas of inheritance worked and explained the phenomena of interest.

to me science should not be about a theory -- but about hard evidence.  The idea that acquired traits can or cannot be inherited is so easily testable that there is simply no reason no one in science would have done so by now.  If nothing else -- just to end the debate.  But I think it's pretty obvious that since no one in science has bothered to do this type of experiment, scientists have no real desire to uncover the truth about the matter.  It's easier to just look the other way and play dumb.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:08   

It may surprise some of you to know that I fully support Supersport's position that all life originated with and evolved by means of mind. I've articulated my position here. Supersport will agree with me when I say,

"It should be clear from the above that a calculus of Rodins, Thinks, Poofs and a completed, empirical Thing Theory promises to dissolve some of the knottiest problems in biology today. For example, we may now confidently sketch the origins of life on earth: a Rodin or Rodins originated a complex Think-Structure that gave rise to both simultaneous and sequential Poofs that created the first biological Thing, detonating life on earth. All that remains is to supply the details.  

In the future we hope to infer the properties of agentic Rodin or Rodins themselves, by tracing Think-Poof-Thing pathways much as the electrodynamic properties of elementary particles may be inferred from the ephemeral trails left within a cloud chamber. We anticipate that the biology of the 22nd century will be characterized by Rodin simulations, the computational modeling of Biological Think-Structures, the detection and deconstruction of Poof-efficacy at the Think-Thing interface, and a completed Thing Theory. Ultimately we may see the triumph of what has been derisively called the "Big Think" theory of the origins of the universe.  We may also confidently anticipate that a bankrupt Darwinism with truly be a “think” of the past."

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:08   

Alright, I'll bite.  But you have to trade me out answer for answer.  I'm going to attempt to answer this question:

Quote
Show me some instances of mutations that add information to the genome


But in order to do so, I'll need to know what you mean by "information".  How do I measure this information, what units do I use?

If you can provide this information, I will answer your question with my next comment to the thread.

Eagerly awaiting new knowledge.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
supersport



Posts: 158
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:10   

by the way, I didn't realize this forum had specific rules on posting limits.   Other forums allow multiple new posts, if desired.   So I apologize for going against the rules.  I'll just stick to this thread in the future.

  
supersport



Posts: 158
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:12   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 19 2007,09:08)
It may surprise some of you to know that I fully support Supersport's position that all life originated with and evolved by means of mind. I've articulated my position here. Supersport will agree with me when I say,

"It should be clear from the above that a calculus of Rodins, Thinks, Poofs and a completed, empirical Thing Theory promises to dissolve some of the knottiest problems in biology today. For example, we may now confidently sketch the origins of life on earth: a Rodin or Rodins originated a complex Think-Structure that gave rise to both simultaneous and sequential Poofs that created the first biological Thing, detonating life on earth. All that remains is to supply the details.  

In the future we hope to infer the properties of agentic Rodin or Rodins themselves, by tracing Think-Poof-Thing pathways much as the electrodynamic properties of elementary particles may be inferred from the ephemeral trails left within a cloud chamber. We anticipate that the biology of the 22nd century will be characterized by Rodin simulations, the computational modeling of Biological Think-Structures, the detection and deconstruction of Poof-efficacy at the Think-Thing interface, and a completed Thing Theory. Ultimately we may see the triumph of what has been derisively called the "Big Think" theory of the origins of the universe.  We may also confidently anticipate that a bankrupt Darwinism with truly be a “think” of the past."

interesting...so what do you disagree with me about?  If you think the mind is the source of life and diversity, what is your take on how life changes?...ie mechanism.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:12   

Quote (supersport @ Sep. 19 2007,09:12)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 19 2007,09:08)
It may surprise some of you to know that I fully support Supersport's position that all life originated with and evolved by means of mind. I've articulated my position here. Supersport will agree with me when I say,

"It should be clear from the above that a calculus of Rodins, Thinks, Poofs and a completed, empirical Thing Theory promises to dissolve some of the knottiest problems in biology today. For example, we may now confidently sketch the origins of life on earth: a Rodin or Rodins originated a complex Think-Structure that gave rise to both simultaneous and sequential Poofs that created the first biological Thing, detonating life on earth. All that remains is to supply the details.  

In the future we hope to infer the properties of agentic Rodin or Rodins themselves, by tracing Think-Poof-Thing pathways much as the electrodynamic properties of elementary particles may be inferred from the ephemeral trails left within a cloud chamber. We anticipate that the biology of the 22nd century will be characterized by Rodin simulations, the computational modeling of Biological Think-Structures, the detection and deconstruction of Poof-efficacy at the Think-Thing interface, and a completed Thing Theory. Ultimately we may see the triumph of what has been derisively called the "Big Think" theory of the origins of the universe.  We may also confidently anticipate that a bankrupt Darwinism with truly be a “think” of the past."

interesting...so what do you disagree with me about?  If you think the mind is the source of life and diversity, what is your take on how life changes?...ie mechanism.

you can't be serious?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
supersport



Posts: 158
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:15   

Quote (blipey @ Sep. 19 2007,09:08)
Alright, I'll bite.  But you have to trade me out answer for answer.  I'm going to attempt to answer this question:

Quote
Show me some instances of mutations that add information to the genome


But in order to do so, I'll need to know what you mean by "information".  How do I measure this information, what units do I use?

If you can provide this information, I will answer your question with my next comment to the thread.

Eagerly awaiting new knowledge.

that's just the thing...

Evolutionists have long said that mutations can create new information. Whether or not this is true remains to be seen. But here are 3 considerations:

1) For one thing, nobody seems to be able to define (or agree on) what new information actually is. For example, is it "new" information if an animal loses information and then gains it back? Evos says yes, logic says no.

2) whether or not mutations create new information is meaningless in the grand scheme of evolution if this new information does not translate into new, useful morphology. Science has never show this to be possible.

3) we all agree that a mutation happens within the confines of an individual....but evolutionists are saying that this individual must somehow be blessed with more information after the mutation than he had before the mutation. Yet, who's to say that this "new" information wasn't just lurking somewhere beneath the surface, lying in wait for some future need? How could you prove it one way or another? The answer is not scientific, it's more of a guess.

But I have a question about this third concept. I would like to know, if a mutation does hypothetically create new information, from where does this new information come? The tooth fairy's magic wand? If it came from within the animal, there's no sense in saying the information is "new," right?

Many evos would say it's meaningless where the information comes from. But I actually think it's quite meaningful because if evolutionists cannot prove to me that the "new" information did not already reside in the organism, and they cannot show me from where it came as an alternative, then it's pretty reasonable to assume this "new" information is probably not "new" at all.

It's also meaningful to know where this new information came from because ToE says the genome of each creature acts independently of the environment. Likewise, the genome does not "read" the environment, nor does it act upon it, nor does it take information from it.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:18   

Quote (supersport @ Sep. 19 2007,09:15)
Quote (blipey @ Sep. 19 2007,09:08)
Alright, I'll bite.  But you have to trade me out answer for answer.  I'm going to attempt to answer this question:

 
Quote
Show me some instances of mutations that add information to the genome


But in order to do so, I'll need to know what you mean by "information".  How do I measure this information, what units do I use?

If you can provide this information, I will answer your question with my next comment to the thread.

Eagerly awaiting new knowledge.

that's just the thing...

Evolutionists have long said that mutations can create new information. Whether or not this is true remains to be seen. But here are 3 considerations:

1) For one thing, nobody seems to be able to define (or agree on) what new information actually is. For example, is it "new" information if an animal loses information and then gains it back? Evos says yes, logic says no.

2) whether or not mutations create new information is meaningless in the grand scheme of evolution if this new information does not translate into new, useful morphology. Science has never show this to be possible.

3) we all agree that a mutation happens within the confines of an individual....but evolutionists are saying that this individual must somehow be blessed with more information after the mutation than he had before the mutation. Yet, who's to say that this "new" information wasn't just lurking somewhere beneath the surface, lying in wait for some future need? How could you prove it one way or another? The answer is not scientific, it's more of a guess.

But I have a question about this third concept. I would like to know, if a mutation does hypothetically create new information, from where does this new information come? The tooth fairy's magic wand? If it came from within the animal, there's no sense in saying the information is "new," right?

Many evos would say it's meaningless where the information comes from. But I actually think it's quite meaningful because if evolutionists cannot prove to me that the "new" information did not already reside in the organism, and they cannot show me from where it came as an alternative, then it's pretty reasonable to assume this "new" information is probably not "new" at all.

It's also meaningful to know where this new information came from because ToE says the genome of each creature acts independently of the environment. Likewise, the genome does not "read" the environment, nor does it act upon it, nor does it take information from it.

Let me re-phrase the question:

How do I measure this information, what units do I use?

Don't avoid it. What units are the "information" you speak of measured in?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
supersport



Posts: 158
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:19   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 19 2007,09:18)
Quote (supersport @ Sep. 19 2007,09:15)
Quote (blipey @ Sep. 19 2007,09:08)
Alright, I'll bite.  But you have to trade me out answer for answer.  I'm going to attempt to answer this question:

 
Quote
Show me some instances of mutations that add information to the genome


But in order to do so, I'll need to know what you mean by "information".  How do I measure this information, what units do I use?

If you can provide this information, I will answer your question with my next comment to the thread.

Eagerly awaiting new knowledge.

that's just the thing...

Evolutionists have long said that mutations can create new information. Whether or not this is true remains to be seen. But here are 3 considerations:

1) For one thing, nobody seems to be able to define (or agree on) what new information actually is. For example, is it "new" information if an animal loses information and then gains it back? Evos says yes, logic says no.

2) whether or not mutations create new information is meaningless in the grand scheme of evolution if this new information does not translate into new, useful morphology. Science has never show this to be possible.

3) we all agree that a mutation happens within the confines of an individual....but evolutionists are saying that this individual must somehow be blessed with more information after the mutation than he had before the mutation. Yet, who's to say that this "new" information wasn't just lurking somewhere beneath the surface, lying in wait for some future need? How could you prove it one way or another? The answer is not scientific, it's more of a guess.

But I have a question about this third concept. I would like to know, if a mutation does hypothetically create new information, from where does this new information come? The tooth fairy's magic wand? If it came from within the animal, there's no sense in saying the information is "new," right?

Many evos would say it's meaningless where the information comes from. But I actually think it's quite meaningful because if evolutionists cannot prove to me that the "new" information did not already reside in the organism, and they cannot show me from where it came as an alternative, then it's pretty reasonable to assume this "new" information is probably not "new" at all.

It's also meaningful to know where this new information came from because ToE says the genome of each creature acts independently of the environment. Likewise, the genome does not "read" the environment, nor does it act upon it, nor does it take information from it.

Let me re-phrase the question:

How do I measure this information, what units do I use?

Don't avoid it. What units are the "information" you speak of measured in?

you can't!   So who's to say one way or the other if information is being added or not?

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:20   

Quote (blipey @ Sep. 19 2007,10:12)
you can't be serious?

Keep out of this, Blip. We're finally getting down to some serious science that recognizes the power of MIND. Your negative materialism has nothing to day about the Think-Thing interface.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:21   

Whoa!  Stop!  Stop!

You are suffering from Creationist Blabbering Syndrome.  The easy cure for this is to Stop!  Wait!  Take one question at a time.

If you are truly interested in furthering your own knowledge and about educating others, you will not bounce willy-nilly about the English language, posting questions and tangential topics without coming to a conclusion about the first one.

Slow Down!

The topic at hand is
Quote
Show me some instances of mutations that add information to the genome

Let's resolve this before moving on, okay?

We need to agree on what information is.  You seem to think that an increase in information requires a morphological change?  Is this a correct reading of your thoughts?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
supersport



Posts: 158
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:23   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 19 2007,09:20)
Quote (blipey @ Sep. 19 2007,10:12)
you can't be serious?

Keep out of this, Blip. We're finally getting down to some serious science that recognizes the power of MIND. Your negative materialism has nothing to day about the Think-Thing interface.

cool bill...I've got to head out..but I'd like to explore this with you in the near future.   Take care.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:24   

Quote (supersport @ Sep. 19 2007,09:23)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 19 2007,09:20)
Quote (blipey @ Sep. 19 2007,10:12)
you can't be serious?

Keep out of this, Blip. We're finally getting down to some serious science that recognizes the power of MIND. Your negative materialism has nothing to day about the Think-Thing interface.

cool bill...I've got to head out..but I'd like to explore this with you in the near future.   Take care.

you can't be serious?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:24   

Quote (supersport @ Sep. 19 2007,10:23)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 19 2007,09:20)
Quote (blipey @ Sep. 19 2007,10:12)
you can't be serious?

Keep out of this, Blip. We're finally getting down to some serious science that recognizes the power of MIND. Your negative materialism has nothing to day about the Think-Thing interface.

cool bill...I've got to head out..but I'd like to explore this with you in the near future.   Take care.

Case closed.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:26   

Wow, Bill.  You make a great straight man; even if he's not serious, that made coffee come out my nose--twice.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:30   

Quote (supersport @ Sep. 19 2007,09:19)
you can't!   So who's to say one way or the other if information is being added or not?

So what you are really saying when you ask
Quote
Show me some instances of mutations that add information to the genome


is that no matter what examples you get, you cannot decide if they are true or not because information is not defined.

So why do you keep asking? How can you judge one way or the other?

So, Cubicle-Boy, how's the real-estate market going? Shame you don't have a real job. Is that why you are here, jealous of all the fancy-pants scientsts doing real, meaningful work.

C'mon Cubicle-boy. Show us what you are made of.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
supersport



Posts: 158
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:35   

The nylon bug is often brought up by evos as an example of "new" information resulting from a mutation. I'm not here to debate whether this is new information or not. As far I'm concerned the idea that the body can generate new information is fine by me.

So assuming that the nylon bug DOES generate new information, let's play a game.

Let's say I'm thinking about the number 8. I'm thinking about the number 8 because I woke up in the morning at exactly 8:00 a.m....therefore the number 8 is stuck in my head all day....at the end of the day I write the number 8 down on a piece of paper.

Next day rolls around, and instead of waking up at 8:00 I wake up at 9:00....therefore I have the number 9 in my head all day....so then I think about the number 9 all day and then write that down on a piece of paper

Question: is this an increase of information? Why or why not? If so, where did the information come from....if not, why not?

It seems to me that there is simply no way to ever tell if information is "new" or not because ultimately nobody knows where information comes from. Coming at it logically, I would say information comes from the mind, but that's just me....I think the mind is in control of all of biology, including the genome. Materialists, however, ignore the mind when it comes to biology and evolution and instead give all the credit to chance and randomness. Ultimately then we all believe in Ex nihilo -- we all believe everything came from nothing...some of us, however, believe there was a cause behind the nothingness changing to something-ness.

So to answer my own question, I would say that going from "8" to "9" may be an increase of information, but that's only because the mind is capable of acquiring more information. Surely, for example you've acquired lots of information over the course of your lfetime -- you've got much more now than you had when you were in grade school. Likewise biology is the same. Flu shots work like that....give yourself a flu shot and your immune system soon reads this information, remembers it and is able to put this information to good use by developing resistance.

Ultimately, the question as to whether or not new information arises by way of mutations is meaningless because I would say the genome is just a physical manifestation of the mind, which is capable of acquiring new information.

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:37   

Quote (supersport @ Sep. 19 2007,15:35)
The nylon bug is often brought up by evos as an example of "new" information resulting from a mutation. I'm not here to debate whether this is new information or not. As far I'm concerned the idea that the body can generate new information is fine by me.

So assuming that the nylon bug DOES generate new information, let's play a game.

Let's say I'm thinking about the number 8. I'm thinking about the number 8 because I woke up in the morning at exactly 8:00 a.m....therefore the number 8 is stuck in my head all day....at the end of the day I write the number 8 down on a piece of paper.

Next day rolls around, and instead of waking up at 8:00 I wake up at 9:00....therefore I have the number 9 in my head all day....so then I think about the number 9 all day and then write that down on a piece of paper

Question: is this an increase of information? Why or why not? If so, where did the information come from....if not, why not?

It seems to me that there is simply no way to ever tell if information is "new" or not because ultimately nobody knows where information comes from. Coming at it logically, I would say information comes from the mind, but that's just me....I think the mind is in control of all of biology, including the genome. Materialists, however, ignore the mind when it comes to biology and evolution and instead give all the credit to chance and randomness. Ultimately then we all believe in Ex nihilo -- we all believe everything came from nothing...some of us, however, believe there was a cause behind the nothingness changing to something-ness.

So to answer my own question, I would say that going from "8" to "9" may be an increase of information, but that's only because the mind is capable of acquiring more information. Surely, for example you've acquired lots of information over the course of your lfetime -- you've got much more now than you had when you were in grade school. Likewise biology is the same. Flu shots work like that....give yourself a flu shot and your immune system soon reads this information, remembers it and is able to put this information to good use by developing resistance.

Ultimately, the question as to whether or not new information arises by way of mutations is meaningless because I would say the genome is just a physical manifestation of the mind, which is capable of acquiring new information.

But you aren't going from a base of 8 up to 9, you're starting again from scratch.

--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:42   

I thought you were leaving.

But, since you're still here, can we resolve this issue:

Quote
Show me some instances of mutations that add information to the genome
?
Is Bill right when he says your question is meaningless because there is no answer you will accept because you don't know what is meant by "information"?

Let's resolve one issue at a time.  If we don;t do this, you just continue to look like a moron who is not interested in the least about education.  Surely you are interested in learing and teaching, right?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:45   

Splurty has spamed this list of questions all over the intertubes.  He merely ignor replies, or engages warp 7 goalposts.

in responce to spurtstuf's question #1

Quote
"Island Biogeography of Populations: An Introduced Species Transforms Survival Patterns"
   Thomas W. Schoener, Jonathan B. Losos, David A. Spiller
   Science 16 December 2005: Vol. 310. no. 5755, pp. 1807 - 1809

   Population phenomena, which provide much of the underlying basis for the theoretical structure of island biogeography, have received little direct study. We determined a key population trait—survival—in the Bahamian lizard Anolis sagrei on islands with an experimentally introduced predatory lizard and on neighboring unmanipulated islands. On unmanipulated islands, survival declined with several variables, most notably vegetation height: The island with the shortest vegetation had nearly the highest survival recorded for any lizard. On islands with the introduced predator, which forages mostly on the ground, A. sagrei shifted to taller vegetation; unlike on unmanipulated islands, its survival was very low on islands with the shortest vegetation but was higher on the others. Thus, species introduction radically changed a resident species' relation of survival to a key island-biogeographical variable.


There is also;

Quote
"Evolutionary Biology: Catching Lizards in the Act of Adapting"
   Virgina Morrell
   Science 2 May 1997:
   Vol. 276. no. 5313, pp. 682 - 683

   Twenty years ago, evolutionary biologists transplanted small populations of Anolis sagrei lizards from Staniel Cay in the Bahamas to several nearby tiny islands, all of which had been lizard-free. The researchers expected the reptiles to go extinct, but by 10 to 14 years later, the animals appeared to be undergoing the kind of body changes that in time could turn each island's population into a separate species. If the changes are genetic, the study would be strong evidence that isolated populations diverge by natural selection, not by genetic drift, as some theorists have argued.


Which was a discussion of :

Quote
"Natural selection out on a limb"
   Ted J. Case
   Nature 387, 15 - 16 (01 May 1997)

   and

"Adaptive differentiation following experimental island colonization in Anolis lizards"
   Jonathan B. Losos, Kenneth I. Warheitt, Thomas W. Schoener
   Nature 387, 70 - 73 (01 May 1997)

   If colonizing populations are displaced into an environment that is often very different from that of their source1, they are particularly likely to diverge evolutionarily, the more so because they are usually small and thus likely to change by genetic restructuring or drift2,3. Despite its fundamental importance, the consequence of colonization for traits of founding populations have primarily been surmised from static present-day distributions1,2,4,5, laboratory experiments6 and the outcomes of haphazard human introductions, rather than from replicated field experiments. Here we report long-term results of just such an experimental study. Populations of the lizard Anolis sagrei, introduced onto small islands from a nearby source, differentiated from each other rapidly over a 10–14-year period. The more different the recipient island's vegetation from that of the source, the greater the magnitude of differentiation. Further, the direction of differentiation followed an expectation based on the evolutionary diversification of insular Anolis over its entire geographic range. In addition to providing a glimpse of adaptive dynamics in one of the most extensive generic radiations on earth, the results lend support to the general argument that environment determines the evolution of morphology.


--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,09:49   

Quote
1) Show me one instance where science transplanted a group of animals to a new environment and observed them for multiple generations to see if new traits quickly/purposefully/nonrandomly emerged.
Artificial selection. Thousands of experiments. Use google.
Quote

2) Show me one instance of science testing/disproving lamarckian-style inheritance.
The real deal would be to find a instance where Lamarckian style inheritance is observed. It's up to you.
Quote

3) Show me one instance (controlled experiment) where science set out to prove/disprove darwinism on real animals.
Thousands of fitness measurement. Use google
Quote

4) Show me one instance where science dated a dinosaur bone with carbon 14 to rule out recent existence.
C14 can't date dinosaur bones.
Quote

5) Show me one instance of an evolutionist (any book, any website) admitting that the change we see in the field and fossil record may not be "evolution" (aka RMNS)at all, but simply individual organisms' ability to utilize their built-in genetic diversity to adapt themselves to their local environment – that selection may not have anything to do with phenotypic change over time.
There isn't such instance because this would be nonsense.
Quote

6) Show me even one instance of the National media coming out with a story that questioned Darwinism or explained the other side of the debate.
Perhaps you can find it yourself. You're the expert in creationism after all. I recall a documentary on the French/german chanel "arte" that questionned "darwinism" in the evolution of humans. I can find a link.
Quote

7) Show me one instance of a genetic mistake (random mutation/copying error) that that created a new, beneficial body part.
A new body parts is not the result of a single "genetic mistake".
Quote

8.) Show me one instance where an accumulation of mutations created a new species.
Hundreds of papers on the genetics of speciation. Use google "speciation genes".
Quote

9) Show me one instance of a mutation that formed a new organ or limb.
See answer to question 8
Quote

10.)  Show me one example ever documented in the history of science that has created a new, beneficial, selectable morphological addition to an existing body part.    .    (a mutation that alters physical, outward appearance in a beneficial way. )
Define "morphological addition"? For instance, what do humans have that chimps don't?
Quote

11) Show me one instance of natural selection proven by controlled experiment. Heck, show me one controlled experiment attempting to test natural selection at all, regardless of the outcome.
See answer to question 3.
Quote

12) Show me one instance of a new gene forming that codes a new protein and performs a new function.
Gene duplications and divergence. Hundreds of studies. Use google.
Quote

13) Show me one instance of a new developmental pathway forming.
?
Quote

14) Show me in the fossil record evidence of millions of bizarre, experimental phenotypic freaks and monstrosities that no-doubt had to occur if variation arose randomly. Or, Show me any from today. (I'm not talking defects...I'm talking new body parts that appear in weird places for no reason...)
That's not a prediction of the theory.
Quote

15) Explain to me why we don’t see humans or dogs or alligators with accidental wings forming. (If the possibility was there for random mutations to produce wings on reptiles or mammals in the past, then it should also be happening now.)
See answer to question 14
Quote

16) show me a set of skeletons that transition from ape to man by way of small modifications.
Thousands of fossils. Use google.
Quote

17) Show me how a cell could evolve randomly:
?
Quote

18. Show me some instances of mutations that add information to the genome:

Define genetic "information".

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,10:21   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 19 2007,05:29)
I pointed out bacteria can thrive on so called "toxic waste" and you've yet to comment on that fact.

Let's just hope they don't turn into teenage mutant ninja bacteria...

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,10:31   

Quote (supersport @ Sep. 19 2007,09:05)
The idea that acquired traits can or cannot be inherited is so easily testable that there is simply no reason no one in science would have done so by now.  If nothing else -- just to end the debate.

If inhertitance of acquired traits was a normal occurrence like you propose, the effects would have been noticed during testing of genetic theory. Separate tests specifically for it aren't necessary.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,12:00   

RBill

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA

hey supersport you and skeptic should get together and work out this mind/soul thing.

Where is Louis?
Where is Lenny?
Where the hell are my keys?  
I've now laughed my ass off.  Think-Thing interface oh shit.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,12:02   

Quote

If inhertitance of acquired traits was a normal occurrence like you propose, the effects would have been noticed during testing of genetic theory. Separate tests specifically for it aren't necessary.


Yeah, exactly.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2007,12:12   

SS, I think you might accidentally be heading in the right general direction but I need to know for sure.  Please get specific and expand on this idea that the mind influences genetic variation and environmental adaptation.  What are the mechanisms behind this or the evidence you believe that points you in this direction?  IMO, you use of the term may be misleading but let's see how you frame it.

  
  603 replies since Sep. 17 2007,22:32 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (21) < ... 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 17 ... >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]