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Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,11:13   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ April 17 2016,10:25)
Here's another Joe-ism that's as good as "wavelength=frequency"
 
Quote
Joe G: "It's the OoL that violates the 2nd law."

linky

There you have it folks.  Origin of life endothermic chemical reactions are impossible because Chubs says so.  Where's Granville Sewell when you need him?   :D

Joes's logic is impeccable (or should I use 'impeckable' to go along with the cornpun thread?).

The designer can move matter and energy as he wishes (ie, violating the 2nd law), but ID does not require the supernatural.

He just gets stupider with age, which I didn't think was possible.

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,11:21   

Quote (stevestory @ April 17 2016,18:03)
Materialism Makes You Stupid
April 16, 2016 Posted by Barry Arrington under Intelligent Design

Mung is back on UD. How long before Joe G Fronkie etc ?

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,11:38   

Quote (k.e.. @ April 17 2016,11:21)
Quote (stevestory @ April 17 2016,18:03)
Materialism Makes You Stupid
April 16, 2016 Posted by Barry Arrington under Intelligent Design

Mung is back on UD. How long before Joe G Fronkie etc ?

I don't remember Mung being tossed. The last one, other than anyone who disagrees with Barry or Gordon Mullings (dba KairosFocus) was Mapou. And it was Denyse who tossed his sorry ass. But he is making up time at Hunter's blog with his "dirt-worshipping homosexuals being the root of all evil" rants.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,13:50   

they certainly find thoughts of homosexuality overwhelming.

   
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,14:45   

Quote (stevestory @ April 17 2016,13:50)
they certainly find thoughts of homosexuality overwhelming.

I fixed your comment for you:

They certainly find thoughts overwhelming.

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,16:30   

Indiana Effigy to Gordon Mullings (dba KairosFocus)
Quote
Feel free to provide evidence that demonstrates that what I said is incorrect. If you can do this without ad hominems and sermonizing...


And Gordon Mulling's response:
Quote
PPS: Let us clear the air, by restoring tone:

>>II.

‘But the time,’ said she, ‘calls rather for healing than for lamentation.’ Then, with her eyes bent full upon me, ‘Art thou that man,’ she cries, ‘who, erstwhile fed with the milk and reared upon the nourishment which is mine to give, had grown up to the full vigour of a manly spirit? And yet I had bestowed such armour on thee as would have proved an invincible defence, hadst thou not first cast it away. Dost thou know me? Why art thou silent? Is it shame or amazement that hath struck thee dumb? Would it were shame; but, as I see, a stupor hath seized upon thee.’ Then, when she saw me not only answering nothing, but mute and utterly incapable of speech, she gently touched my breast with her hand, and said: ‘There is no danger; these are the symptoms of lethargy, the usual sickness of deluded minds. For awhile he has forgotten himself; he will easily recover his memory, if only he first recognises me. And that he may do so, let me now wipe his eyes that are clouded with a mist of mortal things.’ Thereat, with a fold of her robe, she dried my eyes all swimming with tears.

SONG III.
The Mists dispelled.

Then the gloom of night was scattered, Sight returned unto mine eyes. So, when haply rainy Caurus Rolls the storm-clouds through the skies, Hidden is the sun; all heaven Is obscured in starless night. But if, in wild onset sweeping, Boreas frees day’s prisoned light, All suddenly the radiant god outstreams, And strikes our dazzled eyesight with his beams.

III.

Even so the clouds of my melancholy were broken up. I saw the clear sky, and regained the power to recognise the face of my physician. Accordingly, when I had lifted my eyes and fixed my gaze upon her, I beheld my nurse, Philosophy, whose halls I had frequented from my youth up.

‘Ah! why,’ I cried, ‘mistress of all excellence, hast thou come down from on high, and entered the solitude of this my exile? Is it that thou, too, even as I, mayst be persecuted with false accusations?’

‘Could I desert thee, child,’ said she, ‘and not lighten the burden which thou hast taken upon thee through the hatred of my name, by sharing this trouble? Even forgetting that it were not lawful for Philosophy to leave companionless the way of the innocent, should I, thinkest thou, fear to incur reproach, or shrink from it, as though some strange new thing had befallen? Thinkest thou that now, for the first time in an evil age, Wisdom hath been assailed by peril? Did I not often in days of old, before my servant Plato lived, wage stern warfare with the rashness of folly? In his lifetime, too, Socrates, his master, won with my aid the victory of an unjust death. And when, one after the other, the Epicurean herd, the Stoic, and the rest, each of them as far as in them lay, went about to seize the heritage he left, and were dragging me off protesting and resisting, as their booty, they tore in pieces the garment which I had woven with my own hands, and, clutching the torn pieces, went off, believing that the whole of me had passed into their possession. And some of them, because some traces of my vesture were seen upon them, were destroyed through the mistake of the lewd multitude, who falsely deemed them to be my disciples. It may be thou knowest not of the banishment of Anaxagoras, of the poison draught of Socrates, nor of Zeno’s torturing, because these things happened in a distant country; yet mightest thou have learnt the fate of Arrius, of Seneca, of Soranus, whose stories are neither old nor unknown to fame. These men were brought to destruction for no other reason than that, settled as they were in my principles, their lives were a manifest contrast to the ways of the wicked. So there is nothing thou shouldst wonder at, if on the seas of this life we are tossed by storm-blasts, seeing that we have made it our chiefest aim to refuse compliance with evil-doers. And though, maybe, the host of the wicked is many in number, yet is it contemptible, since it is under no leadership, but is hurried hither and thither at the blind driving of mad error. And if at times and seasons they set in array against us, and fall on in overwhelming strength, our leader draws off her forces into the citadel while they are busy plundering the useless baggage. But we from our vantage ground, safe from all this wild work, laugh to see them making prize of the most valueless of things, protected by a bulwark which aggressive folly may not aspire to reach.’>>


And Indiana Effigy's response:
Quote
What about not “sermonizing” don’t you understand? Do you really think that your tone filled patronizing sermons restores tone? And how does this change the fact that Indian children in Canada were treated in the way they were, with the church taking an active and willing part. And, correct me if I am wrong (I might be), the church has never offered an apology for their complicity in this action.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,19:39   

WTF is all that jibber-jabber?

   
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,20:12   

Quote (stevestory @ April 17 2016,19:39)
WTF is all that jibber-jabber?

It gets better:
Quote
kairosfocusApril 17, 2016 at 4:35 pm
IE,

The answer continues, in hopes that at the last some spark may catch and burst into awakening:



We have been there before, and it does not end well.

Beginning to see that the line between good and evil passes not between classes and nations but through the individual human heart?

Beginning to recognise the futility of assailing sound philosophy, sound theology and sound religion, by way of well poisoning and atmosphere poisoning?

Beginning to see that if you fail to respond appropriately to a civil and balanced acknowledgement of wrongs and the to the principles of reformation then you leave only a fight without Marquis of Queensbury rules?

Nihilism, in one word.

That is what we must name and exorcise, if we are to be men of civil temperament and not brute beasts playing nihilistic agit prop games and not caring what happens when one burns down civilising influences.

KF

PS: EZ, some of my ancestors were slaves, some were indentured servants, some overseers and some masters. All, eventually tamed by the gospel that you would dismiss and discard. Tamed to the point where a certain name sits above a certain parliament written in martyr’s blood, descended from master and slave alike. Blood unjustly spilled for standing up with unwelcome truth spoken from Christian concern to unreasonable domineering power.

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,20:15   

Sorry, my last post cut off a lot of Mullings gems.
[QUOTE]IE,

The answer continues, in hopes that at the last some spark may catch and burst into awakening:



We have been there before, and it does not end well.

Beginning to see that the line between good and evil passes not between classes and nations but through the individual human heart?

Beginning to recognise the futility of assailing sound philosophy, sound theology and sound religion, by way of well poisoning and atmosphere poisoning?

Beginning to see that if you fail to respond appropriately to a civil and balanced acknowledgement of wrongs and the to the principles of reformation then you leave only a fight without Marquis of Queensbury rules?

Nihilism, in one word.

That is what we must name and exorcise, if we are to be men of civil temperament and not brute beasts playing nihilistic agit prop games and not caring what happens when one burns down civilising influences.

KF

PS: EZ, some of my ancestors were slaves, some were indentured servants, some overseers and some masters. All, eventually tamed by the gospel that you would dismiss and discard. Tamed to the point where a certain name sits above a certain parliament written in martyr’s blood, descended from master and slave alike. Blood unjustly spilled for standing up with unwelcome truth spoken from Christian concern to unreasonable domineering power.

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,20:19   

OK, third time's the charm. This is the text between Mullings intro, and conclusion:
[QUOTE]
IV.

‘Dost thou understand?’ she asks. Do my words sink into thy mind? Or art thou dull “as the ass to the sound of the lyre”? Why dost thou weep? Why do tears stream from thy eyes?
‘”Speak out, hide it not in thy heart.”

If thou lookest for the physician’s help, thou must needs disclose thy wound.’

Then I, gathering together what strength I could, began: ‘Is there still need of telling? Is not the cruelty of fortune against me plain enough? Doth not the very aspect of this place move thee? Is this the library, the room which thou hadst chosen as thy constant resort in my home, the place where we so often sat together and held discourse of all things in heaven and earth? Was my garb and mien like this when I explored with thee nature’s hid secrets, and thou didst trace for me with thy wand the courses of the stars, moulding the while my character and the whole conduct of my life after the pattern of the celestial order? Is this the recompense of my obedience? Yet thou hast enjoined by Plato’s mouth the maxim, “that states would be happy, either if philosophers ruled them, or if it should so befall that their rulers would turn philosophers.” By his mouth likewise thou didst point out this imperative reason why philosophers should enter public life, to wit, lest, if the reins of government be left to unprincipled and profligate citizens, trouble and destruction should come upon the good. Following these precepts, I have tried to apply in the business of public administration the principles which I learnt from thee in leisured seclusion. Thou art my witness and that divinity who hath implanted thee in the hearts of the wise, that I brought to my duties no aim but zeal for the public good. For this cause I have become involved in bitter and irreconcilable feuds, and, as happens inevitably, if a man holds fast to the independence of conscience, I have had to think nothing of giving offence to the powerful in the cause of justice. How often have I encountered and balked Conigastus in his assaults on the fortunes of the weak? How often have I thwarted Trigguilla, steward of the king’s household, even when his villainous schemes were as good as accomplished? How often have I risked my position and influence to protect poor wretches from the false charges innumerable with which they were for ever being harassed by the greed and license of the barbarians? No one has ever drawn me aside from justice to oppression. When ruin was overtaking the fortunes of the provincials through the combined pressure of private rapine and public taxation, I grieved no less than the sufferers. When at a season of grievous scarcity a forced sale, disastrous as it was unjustifiable, was proclaimed, and threatened to overwhelm Campania with starvation, I embarked on a struggle with the prætorian prefect in the public interest, I fought the case at the king’s judgment-seat, and succeeded in preventing the enforcement of the sale. I rescued the consular Paulinus from the gaping jaws of the court bloodhounds, who in their covetous hopes had already made short work of his wealth. To save Albinus, who was of the same exalted rank, from the penalties of a prejudged charge, I exposed myself to the hatred of Cyprian, the informer.

‘Thinkest thou I had laid up for myself store of enmities enough? Well, with the rest of my countrymen, at any rate, my safety should have been assured, since my love of justice had left me no hope of security at court. Yet who was it brought the charges by which I have been struck down? Why, one of my accusers is Basil, who, after being dismissed from the king’s household, was driven by his debts to lodge an information against my name. There is Opilio, there is Gaudentius, men who for many and various offences the king’s sentence had condemned to banishment; and when they declined to obey, and sought to save themselves by taking sanctuary, the king, as soon as he heard of it, decreed that, if they did not depart from the city of Ravenna within a prescribed time, they should be branded on the forehead and expelled. What would exceed the rigour of this severity? And yet on that same day these very men lodged an information against me, and the information was admitted. Just Heaven! had I deserved this by my way of life? Did it make them fit accusers that my condemnation was a foregone conclusion? Has fortune no shame—if not at the accusation of the innocent, at least for the vileness of the accusers? Perhaps thou wonderest what is the sum of the charges laid against me? I wished, they say, to save the senate. But how? I am accused of hindering an informer from producing evidence to prove the senate guilty of treason. Tell me, then, what is thy counsel, O my mistress. Shall I deny the charge, lest I bring shame on thee? But I did wish it, and I shall never cease to wish it. Shall I admit it? Then the work of thwarting the informer will come to an end. Shall I call the wish for the preservation of that illustrious house a crime? Of a truth the senate, by its decrees concerning me, has made it such! But blind folly, though it deceive itself with false names, cannot alter the true merits of things, and, mindful of the precept of Socrates, I do not think it right either to keep the truth concealed or allow falsehood to pass. But this, however it may be, I leave to thy judgment and to the verdict of the discerning. Moreover, lest the course of events and the true facts should be hidden from posterity, I have myself committed to writing an account of the transaction.

‘What need to speak of the forged letters by which an attempt is made to prove that I hoped for the freedom of Rome? Their falsity would have been manifest, if I had been allowed to use the confession of the informers themselves, evidence which has in all matters the most convincing force. Why, what hope of freedom is left to us? Would there were any! I should have answered with the epigram of Canius when Caligula declared him to have been cognisant of a conspiracy against him. “If I had known,” said he, “thou shouldst never have known.” Grief hath not so blunted my perceptions in this matter that I should complain because impious wretches contrive their villainies against the virtuous, but at their achievement of their hopes I do exceedingly marvel. For evil purposes are, perchance, due to the imperfection of human nature; that it should be possible for scoundrels to carry out their worst schemes against the innocent, while God beholdeth, is verily monstrous. For this cause, not without reason, one of thy disciples asked, “If God exists, whence comes evil? Yet whence comes good, if He exists not?” However, it might well be that wretches who seek the blood of all honest men and of the whole senate should wish to destroy me also, whom they saw to be a bulwark of the senate and all honest men. But did I deserve such a fate from the Fathers also? Thou rememberest, methinks—since thou didst ever stand by my side to direct what I should do or say—thou rememberest, I say, how at Verona, when the king, eager for the general destruction, was bent on implicating the whole senatorial order in the charge of treason brought against Albinus, with what indifference to my own peril I maintained the innocence of its members, one and all. Thou knowest that what I say is the truth, and that I have never boasted of my good deeds in a spirit of self-praise. For whenever a man by proclaiming his good deeds receives the recompense of fame, he diminishes in a measure the secret reward of a good conscience. What issues have overtaken my innocency thou seest. Instead of reaping the rewards of true virtue, I undergo the penalties of a guilt falsely laid to my charge—nay, more than this; never did an open confession of guilt cause such unanimous severity among the assessors, but that some consideration, either of the mere frailty of human nature, or of fortune’s universal instability, availed to soften the verdict of some few. Had I been accused of a design to fire the temples, to slaughter the priests with impious sword, of plotting the massacre of all honest men, I should yet have been produced in court, and only punished on due confession or conviction. Now for my too great zeal towards the senate I have been condemned to outlawry and death, unheard and undefended, at a distance of near five hundred miles away.[C] Oh, my judges, well do ye deserve that no one should hereafter be convicted of a fault like mine!

‘Yet even my very accusers saw how honourable was the charge they brought against me, and, in order to overlay it with some shadow of guilt, they falsely asserted that in the pursuit of my ambition I had stained my conscience with sacrilegious acts. And yet thy spirit, indwelling in me, had driven from the chamber of my soul all lust of earthly success, and with thine eye ever upon me, there could be no place left for sacrilege. For thou didst daily repeat in my ear and instil into my mind the Pythagorean maxim, “Follow after God.” It was not likely, then, that I should covet the assistance of the vilest spirits, when thou wert moulding me to such an excellence as should conform me to the likeness of God. Again, the innocency of the inner sanctuary of my home, the company of friends of the highest probity, a father-in-law revered at once for his pure character and his active beneficence, shield me from the very suspicion of sacrilege. Yet—atrocious as it is—they even draw credence for this charge from thee; I am like to be thought implicated in wickedness on this very account, that I am imbued with thy teachings and stablished in thy ways. So it is not enough that my devotion to thee should profit me nothing, but thou also must be assailed by reason of the odium which I have incurred. Verily this is the very crown of my misfortunes, that men’s opinions for the most part look not to real merit, but to the event; and only recognise foresight where Fortune has crowned the issue with her approval. Whereby it comes to pass that reputation is the first of all things to abandon the unfortunate. I remember with chagrin how perverse is popular report, how various and discordant men’s judgments. This only will I say, that the most crushing of misfortune’s burdens is, that as soon as a charge is fastened upon the unhappy, they are believed to have deserved their sufferings. I, for my part, who have been banished from all life’s blessings, stripped of my honours, stained in repute, am punished for well-doing.

‘And now methinks I see the villainous dens of the wicked surging with joy and gladness, all the most recklessly unscrupulous threatening a new crop of lying informations, the good prostrate with terror at my danger, every ruffian incited by impunity to new daring and to success by the profits of audacity, the guiltless not only robbed of their peace of mind, but even of all means of defence

  
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,20:55   

Quote (stevestory @ April 17 2016,17:39)
WTF is all that jibber-jabber?

The Consolation of Philosophy by Ancius Boethius.
Knowing that, I'm sure you'll want to renounce everything that KF is having a hissy fit about.

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,21:51   

Apparently Mullings just won't let it go:
Quote

IE, it seems you are unaware of the fires you play with and have studiously ignored the response I made at 92 above as well as those of the thread owner and news; and just now there is a remark that tends to distort news and by extension VJT and myself in ways that are strawmannish. The turnabout rhetoric just above fails, and I repeat, Boethius shows what happens when might vs right nihilism prevails in a community and what it costs. Yes Christendom has its many flaws and sins across 2000 years and many have erred and done wrong even in the name of the church or the gospel; that does not negate the power of truth and reformation in both, nor the only sound foundational IS that grounds OUGHT: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. Even, when our progress in the good is flawed and stumbling. So, the much despised Christendom also has in it the means of reformation and a solid foundation for ought. Those who consistently flail at it and make no due balance even in the face of a reasonable response that acknowledges the tension between is and ought in particular cases and/or in general, flag themselves as needing the sort of reminder Boethius provides. Or at any rate, there will be record that warning was given. KF


I can't imagine IE lasting much longer after raising the ire of the man who must not be named.

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2016,21:54   

If IE is a woman, I think I am in love.
Quote
KF: “IE, it seems you are unaware of the fires you play…blah, blah, blah”

And what fires would those be? The ones where an atheist such as myself is appalled by the actions of my government and the church towards several generations of native children when a supposedly good Christian such as yourself is not? That speaks volumes.

But if it allows you to sleep better at night to pontificate and sermonize and toss ad hominems at me, fill your boots. G’day.

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 18 2016,09:22   

Quote (stevestory @ April 17 2016,19:39)
WTF is all that jibber-jabber?

Braincrud.

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 18 2016,10:51   

Quote (stevestory @ April 17 2016,20:39)
WTF is all that jibber-jabber?

Post-modernist medievalism.
I'd prefix that with 'unthinking' except for the fact that both other descriptors imply 'unthinking' as part and parcel of the attribution.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 18 2016,12:31   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ April 17 2016,21:12)
Quote

civil temperament...brute beasts...nihilistic agit prop games...civilising influences...unwelcome truth...Christian concern...unreasonable domineering power.

This guy never met a noun what didn't deserve an adjective or two.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 18 2016,17:19   

Quote
113
Indiana Effigy

April 18, 2016 at 6:52 am

KF: “let me add: blah blah blah…”

There is a correlation coefficient of 1 between your use of phrases such as strawman soaked in oil of red herring seasoned with ad-hominem and the irrelevance of what you are talking about.


:p

   
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: April 18 2016,19:05   

Quote (stevestory @ April 18 2016,17:19)
Quote
113
Indiana Effigy

April 18, 2016 at 6:52 am

KF: “let me add: blah blah blah…”

There is a correlation coefficient of 1 between your use of phrases such as strawman soaked in oil of red herring seasoned with ad-hominem and the irrelevance of what you are talking about.


:p

Ouch. That has to hurt.

  
Palaeonictis



Posts: 13
Joined: April 2016

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2016,11:13   

Quote (NoName @ April 18 2016,10:51)
Quote (stevestory @ April 17 2016,20:39)
WTF is all that jibber-jabber?

Post-modernist medievalism.
I'd prefix that with 'unthinking' except for the fact that both other descriptors imply 'unthinking' as part and parcel of the attribution.

I'd like to point out one thing tho', for as much as the Middle Ages were fundamentalist, bat-shit insane religious fanaticism, Biblical literalism wasn't that big of a thing, as said by that great Christian philosopher, Augustine of Hippo:

Quote

It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation


Which taken into context is quite understandable because Biblical literalism wasn't big in Christian theology 'till the Protestant Reformation of the 16th-17th centuries. Particularly in his idea that there were no "seven days" for creation, instead God created everything in an instant.

Which isn't to say that Augustine was a rationalist skeptic who happened to ascribe to the Christian faith, not at all, he for one still believed in geocentrism as outlined by the Old Testament, and was the originator of the mad idea that billions of unbaptised infants go into a state known as "limbo" after death.

--------------
“Why do we electrocute men for murdering an individual and then pin a purple heart on them for mass slaughter of someone arbitrarily labeled “enemy?”
― Sylvia Plath

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2016,11:40   

Fair enough.  I've read my share of the medievals and 'unthinking' isn't really accurate.  They often thought well, but very uncritically.  
It's rather like the common error of treating the validity of an argument as the same as its truth.
Valid simply means the form is good.  Truth means it conforms to or references a state of affairs that actually obtains.  (Or whatever other theory of truth you go for -- as far as I know, none of them conflate validity and truth these days.)
The medievalists were quite bad at truth-grounding.

And yes, one of the virtues, such as they are, of the Catholic Church was its harsh stance towards bibliolatry.

  
Palaeonictis



Posts: 13
Joined: April 2016

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2016,12:51   

[quote=NoName,April 19 2016,11:40][/quote]
Quote
Fair enough.  I've read my share of the medievals and 'unthinking' isn't really accurate.  They often thought well, but very uncritically.  
It's rather like the common error of treating the validity of an argument as the same as its truth.
Valid simply means the form is good.  Truth means it conforms to or references a state of affairs that actually obtains.  (Or whatever other theory of truth you go for -- as far as I know, none of them conflate validity and truth these days.)
The medievalists were quite bad at truth-grounding.


Some medievalists were quite well educated men, some even were influential in the forming of the modern scientific method (its first incarnation being developed by ibn-Haytham), such as Roger Bacon, who once remarked on the unwillingness of the Learned to go out and count the actual number of teeth a horse has, instead they would rather endlessly argue about it with no fruitful end-products other than much mashing of teeth and death to the losing side (y'know, the Inquisition).

Quote
And yes, one of the virtues, such as they are, of the Catholic Church was its harsh stance towards bibliolatry.


One of the very few virtues of the Catholic Church, unfortunately.

--------------
“Why do we electrocute men for murdering an individual and then pin a purple heart on them for mass slaughter of someone arbitrarily labeled “enemy?”
― Sylvia Plath

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2016,13:11   

Quote
1

Mung

April 19, 2016 at 8:12 am

Careful Barry, you might be prosecuted for climate denial.


Always the question: Lying, or extremely stupid?

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2016,13:26   

Quote (stevestory @ April 19 2016,11:11)
Quote
1

Mung

April 19, 2016 at 8:12 am

Careful Barry, you might be prosecuted for climate denial.


Always the question: Lying, or extremely stupid?

Lying.  And extremely stupid.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
rossum



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2016,16:18   

Quote (JohnW @ April 19 2016,13:26)
Quote (stevestory @ April 19 2016,11:11)
Quote
1

Mung

April 19, 2016 at 8:12 am

Careful Barry, you might be prosecuted for climate denial.


Always the question: Lying, or extremely stupid?

Lying.  And extremely stupid.

So, an inclusive 'or' then.

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The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2016,19:00   

Quote (Palaeonictis @ April 19 2016,11:13)
Augustine of Hippo:
It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation

I'd like to save that quote as an all-purpose comeback when a creationist says something stupid.  (I'll use it every day.)  Can you tell us which book it's from?

  
Palaeonictis



Posts: 13
Joined: April 2016

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2016,19:17   

Quote (CeilingCat @ April 19 2016,19:00)
Quote (Palaeonictis @ April 19 2016,11:13)
Augustine of Hippo:
It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation

I'd like to save that quote as an all-purpose comeback when a creationist says something stupid.  (I'll use it every day.)  Can you tell us which book it's from?

The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapter 19 (C.E.  408)

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“Why do we electrocute men for murdering an individual and then pin a purple heart on them for mass slaughter of someone arbitrarily labeled “enemy?”
― Sylvia Plath

   
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2016,20:36   

BA77:
Quote
“I think there is a good reason why Darwinists don’t want mathematicians…”


IE:

Quote
R. A. Fisher. Co-founder of the modern synthesis (neo-Darwinism) was a mathematician. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 20 2016,11:33   

Quote (Palaeonictis @ April 19 2016,17:17)
The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapter 19 (C.E.  408)

I somewhat prefer;

Augustine of Hippo (A.D. 354-430) advised Christians trying to interpret Scripture in the light of scientific knowledge in his work The Literal Meaning of Genesis (De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim). The following translation is by J. H. Taylor in Ancient Christian Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41.

“Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. I, xix, 39. {Augustine here has referred to 1 Timothy 1.7}”

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 20 2016,16:07   

Quote (Dr.GH @ April 20 2016,11:33)
Quote (Palaeonictis @ April 19 2016,17:17)
The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapter 19 (C.E.  408)

I somewhat prefer;

Augustine of Hippo (A.D. 354-430) advised Christians trying to interpret Scripture in the light of scientific knowledge in his work The Literal Meaning of Genesis (De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim). The following translation is by J. H. Taylor in Ancient Christian Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41.

“Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. I, xix, 39. {Augustine here has referred to 1 Timothy 1.7}”

That source filled in a perplexing set of ellipses in the commonly-used quote of St. Augustine I had seen before. Looking back at David Heddle and IDC...

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 20 2016,22:19   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ April 20 2016,14:07)
That source filled in a perplexing set of ellipses in the commonly-used quote of St. Augustine I had seen before. Looking back at David Heddle and IDC...

Yeah, that translation was particularly good.

I also found that Thomas Aquinas was also to the point with fewer words;

"In discussing questions of this kind two rules are to be observed, as Augustine teaches.  The first is, to hold to the truth of Scripture without wavering. The second is that since Holy Scripture can be explained in a multiplicity of senses, one should adhere to a particular explanation only in such measure as to be ready to abandon it if it be proved with certainty to be false, lest Holy Scripture be exposed to the ridicule of unbelievers, and obstacles be placed to their believing." - Thomas Aquinas, c.a. 1225 - 1274, Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, Q68. Art 1.  (1273).

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
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