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  Topic: The Gang of Four at the Gateway of Life, Proof for ID (I didn't say God!)< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
cewagner



Posts: 41
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2008,19:26   

Quote
POTW


Poem of the week?

OK!

STARRY SKIES

by Charlie Wagner

My life was like a canyon
As deep as it was wide
And I, a lonely traveler
Just looking for a place to hide.
My path was filled with darkness
And emptiness ahead.
Night after night, under starry skies
I wished that I was dead.
But then you came into my world
And darkness turned to dawn.
Your essence swept into my life
Helping me to be reborn.
Your specter crept into my dreams
Each and every night.
You wandered in my brain from room to room
Turning on each light.
You'll probably never realize
How much it meant to me
That you were there beside me
Helping me be free.
And you'll probably never realize
The emptiness inside
That comes to me each night you're not
Sleeping by my side.
But I've still got those memories
That swirl before my eyes.
Of you and I lying peacefully,
Beneath those starry skies.

[B][/B]

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2008,20:01   

Hi Charlie

May I suggest another title for this poem?  How about "An Ode To LSD"?

No?

by the way it sounds much like Sweet Leaf, the Black Sabbath rock anthem.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2008,20:14   

Personally, I think ee cummings said it pretty well.

Quote
i like my body when it is with your
  body. It is so quite a new thing.
  Muscles better and nerves more.
  i like your body. i like what it does,
  i like its hows. i like to feel the spine
  of your body and its bones, and the trembling
  -firm-smooth ness and which i will
  again and again and again
  kiss, i like kissing this and that of you,
  i like,, slowly stroking the, shocking fuzz
  of your electric fur, and what-is-it comes
  over parting flesh . . . . And eyes big Love-crumbs,

  and possibly i like the thrill

  of under me you quite so new


--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2008,21:02   

There is loss in ce's poem.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2008,21:38   

By the way, The Gang of Four at the Gateway of Life" sounds a bit like "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" from Wind in the Willows. Also a Pink Floyd album.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2008,23:29   

Remember what the doormouse said
Feed your head
Feed your head. . . .

- G. Slick

:)    :)    :)    :)    :)

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2008,23:31   

Twas writ above:

Quote
by the way it sounds much like Sweet Leaf, the Black Sabbath rock anthem.


Actually, 'Ras, I think it's more like Planet Caravan (off the Paranoid album).  'Cept Planet Caravan's better.  My 2c.  :)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2008,23:42   

agreed.  but what about spiral architect.

sabbath bloody sabbath, greatest rock and roll album EVAR

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
cewagner



Posts: 41
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2008,13:36   



Wow!

LSD, Black Sabbath, e.e.Cummings, Pink Floyd and Jefferson Airplane!

Don't forget Rimbaud...

"It has been found again. What? Eternity.
it is the sea mingled with the sun"
from
Alchemy of the word, A Season in Hell

You guys ROCK!

   
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2008,18:59   

Quote (cewagner @ Aug. 16 2008,17:55)
Quote
Did you even read what I said?


Not only did I read what you said, I went and read up on "Garden of Eden" patterns.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not just blowing you off. This interface between chaos theory and life is a subject that I have grappled with often.

In fact, it is safe to say that my understanding of it is still a "work in progress".

What continues to drive me on is an unshakable belief that a natural explanation will be found, that will fall squarely within the realm of science.

Debunking darwinism does not mean accepting religious creationism. All it means is that Darwin was wrong and we've got to keep looking for scientific explanations.

Not to play devil's advocate, but how is that possible when ID completely removes itself from the realm of science?

Saying Darwin was wrong is one thing, and one I fully support, but saying he's wrong because of some unknown and undetectable intelligence is nothing more than faith.  You might as well throw your lot in with YECs because you're playing in the same scientific ballpark.

Not trying to snipe here, but I'd really love to see just one example of how ID can be reconciled with scientific investigation.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2008,19:18   

I think everyone would like to see an ID research proposal that didn't involve googling for quotelets.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Venus Mousetrap



Posts: 201
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2008,20:32   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 18 2008,19:18)
I think everyone would like to see an ID research proposal that didn't involve googling for quotelets.

I reckon my one's fairly worthwhile. The Gardens of Eden have been mathematically verified, which means that in the world of a CA, at least, it is possible to mathematically determine that something is a designed entity. I don't actually know how they do it, but I suspect it's something like an advanced version of irreducible complexity; ie. not the crappy version ID people use which doesn't take into account most mutation mechanisms, but one which rules out, cell by cell, all possible precursors which result in that cell.

I mean, just reading a paper on HOW IT'S DONE would be a fine piece of research.

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2008,22:28   

Wait, Gardens of Eden was Iron Butterfly.  Er, umm, wait, something like that. . . . .

:)     :)     :)     :)     :)

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2008,22:43   

Quote
I think everyone would like to see an ID research proposal that didn't involve googling for quotelets.


Quotelets? Is that quotes that are descended with modification from earlier quotes? :p

Henry

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2008,00:31   

Sorry Venus that's just an arbitrary quantification that in no way approaches objective observation.  Hell, if we allowed mathematical estimations of complexity then half the people on this board would develop a model proving that I couldn't (shouldn't) exist.

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2008,01:43   

I once proved that I didn't exist.  But I didn't believe me.  :)   :)   :)   :p

  
charlie wagner



Posts: 24
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,09:04   

Quote
but how is that possible when ID completely removes itself from the realm of science?


It doesn't.

Don't confuse ID with religious creationism.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,09:08   

Quote (charlie wagner @ Aug. 22 2008,09:04)
Quote
but how is that possible when ID completely removes itself from the realm of science?


It doesn't.

Don't confuse ID with religious creationism.

This is probably not the best forum to pretend ID is anything but religious creationism.  

Don't be a bore and please do not assume we are all dumb as shit here.  This is not UD.  We know full well what ID is and isn't.

UD is a great site for fantasy gamers (those who "believe" in ID) such as yourself.

Spin again.

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
charlie wagner



Posts: 24
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,14:27   

Quote
We know full well what ID is and isn't.


As a lifelong atheist/agnostic, I resent the implication that ID and religious creationism are the same thing.

The notion of intelligent design has been hijacked by those with a religious agenda to promote. Almost all proponents of ID do in fact have a religious agenda and they must be stopped from disseminating their ideology in public schools. The trick is to separate legitimate scientific investigation of intelligent design from religious creationism. As it stands now, most scientists are afraid to even talk about the subject for fear of being misquoted or having their own words used as religious propaganda. This has had a chilling effect on legitimate science that may take decades to repair. Ideology has no place in any public school science classroom and it must be stopped wherever it occurs. But one must also recognize that there have also been zealots on the evolutionist side who want to teach mechanisms of evolution that have no empirical support. The answer is simple and clear. Religious creationism must be eliminated from school curriculums and darwinian evolution must be taught not as fact, but in it's historical context. There is enough factual science, from anatomy to zoology to fill any school's scientific curriculum with non-controversial, factual science. Any teaching of darwinian evolution or creationism or "the controversy" is nothing more than a waste of time that could be better spent on real science.

Http://www.charliewagner.com


  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,14:33   

Quote (charlie wagner @ Aug. 22 2008,20:27)

Ideology has no place in any public school science classroom and it must be stopped wherever it occurs. But one must also recognize that there have also been zealots on the evolutionist side who want to teach mechanisms of evolution that have no empirical support. The answer is simple and clear. Religious creationism must be eliminated from school curriculums and darwinian evolution must be taught not as fact, but in it's historical context. There is enough factual science, from anatomy to zoology to fill any school's scientific curriculum with non-controversial, factual science. Any teaching of darwinian evolution or creationism or "the controversy" is nothing more than a waste of time that could be better spent on real science.


What's your favourite claim in a highschool biology textbook for which there is no evidence? I mean, since this is a big issue for you, you must've run across plenty of them.

Edit: Speling, shortened the quote.

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,14:59   

Quote (charlie wagner @ Aug. 22 2008,12:27)
The trick is to separate legitimate scientific investigation of intelligent design

And as soon as there is any, do remember to let us know.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,15:04   

Quote (charlie wagner @ Aug. 22 2008,12:27)
The notion of intelligent design has been hijacked invented by those with a religious agenda to promote.

Fixed.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Sealawr



Posts: 54
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,15:35   

Quote (charlie wagner @ Aug. 22 2008,14:27)
Quote
We know full well what ID is and isn't.


As a lifelong atheist/agnostic, I resent the implication that ID and religious creationism are the same thing....Almost all proponents of ID do in fact have a religious agenda and they must be stopped from disseminating their ideology in public schools. .

Http://www.charliewagner.com


Got it.

You think creationist have polluted the real ID.

Evenif that's true, scientists who correctly pointed out that ID=creationism shouldn't have to then clean up the mess.

The solution is clear.  Take your problem to the Discovery Institute.   They were the ones whe pooped in the punchbowl.  If they really want to clean up the problem, they can separate the fruit juice from the floating bits.

Meanwhile, nobody in their right mind will drink the stuff.

--------------
DS: "The explantory filter is as robust as the data that is used with it."
David Klinghoffer: ""I'm an IDiot"

  
Sealawr



Posts: 54
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,15:39   

Quote (charlie wagner @ Aug. 22 2008,14:27)

And, I have to concede thats a pretty darn good aerial shot of a "contaminated" punchbowl.

--------------
DS: "The explantory filter is as robust as the data that is used with it."
David Klinghoffer: ""I'm an IDiot"

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,16:59   

Quote (cewagner @ Aug. 15 2008,17:02)
Molecular motors – a lesson in nanotechnology from Nature
Roop Mallik



They are small, and there are billions of them inside you.

A lie. There are at least trillions.
Quote
Tiny

METAPHORICAL
Quote
machines, a thousandth of the thickness of human hair, but robust and designed

Assertion is not argument, Charlie.
Quote
for an amazing variety of functions.

And single ones have multiple functions, and multiple ones have partially overlapping functions--a profoundly unintelligent design.
Quote
Science fiction? Think again … this is real, as real as flesh and blood !! If you can get your hands on a high school biology text book, flip through to the mandatory schematic of an animal cell. Look closely, what you will see is not a floppy bag with random things thrown in here and there. There is amazing structural organization within the cell,

True...
Quote
with several compartments (e.g. the nucleus, Golgi bodies, mitochondria) at specific locations.

You're simply lying, Charlie. They aren't in specific locations at all.
Quote
Many of these compartments are specialized “factories”, each with its own assembly line which requires specific raw material as input and generates specific products.

But the interactions aren't specific. They are merely selective, a defect that an intelligent designer could overcome.
Quote
A constant give-and-take of materials occurs within these factories, because each is dependent on the other.

Yes and no. The constant give-and-take is the only way to overcome the lack of specificity.

For example, the exocytic and endocytic pathways overlap at multiple locations. Since you're fond of analogies, this is analogous to your sewage system mixing with your fresh water supply at multiple locations. An intelligent designer would have plumbed the cell with pipes, not dispersed fusion-happy lipid-bound organelles.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,17:08   

Quote (charlie wagner @ Aug. 22 2008,15:27)
Quote
We know full well what ID is and isn't.


As a lifelong atheist/agnostic, I resent the implication that ID and religious creationism are the same thing.

The notion of intelligent design has been hijacked by those with a religious agenda to promote. Almost all proponents of ID do in fact have a religious agenda and they must be stopped from disseminating their ideology in public schools. The trick is to separate legitimate scientific investigation of intelligent design from religious creationism. As it stands now, most scientists are afraid to even talk about the subject for fear of being misquoted or having their own words used as religious propaganda. This has had a chilling effect on legitimate science that may take decades to repair. Ideology has no place in any public school science classroom and it must be stopped wherever it occurs. But one must also recognize that there have also been zealots on the evolutionist side who want to teach mechanisms of evolution that have no empirical support. The answer is simple and clear. Religious creationism must be eliminated from school curriculums and darwinian evolution must be taught not as fact, but in it's historical context. There is enough factual science, from anatomy to zoology to fill any school's scientific curriculum with non-controversial, factual science. Any teaching of darwinian evolution or creationism or "the controversy" is nothing more than a waste of time that could be better spent on real science.

Http://www.charliewagner.com


Quote
Religious creationism must be eliminated from school curriculums and darwinian evolution must be taught not as fact, but in it's historical context.


It is what?

What is the difference between 'religious creationism' and 'magic man done it creationism'?

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 555
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,17:24   

Quote
What is the difference between 'religious creationism' and 'magic man done it creationism'?

Nothing; they both unfairly dismiss 'space aliens done did it creationism.'

--------------
"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
------
"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
charlie wagner



Posts: 24
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,17:37   

Quote
What is the difference between 'religious creationism' and 'magic man done it creationism'?


What is the difference between darwinism and "magic man done it evolution?"

lets see what Professor Doolittle has to say on this subject:

http://www-biology.ucsd.edu/faculty/doolittle.html

"Tissue factor appears..."

"Prothrombin appears..."

"A Thrombin receptor is fashioned..."

"Fibrinogen is born..."

"Antithrombin III appears..."

"Plasminogen is generated..."

Antiplasmin arises..."

"A thrombin-activatable protein is unleashed..."

"Plasminogen activator springs forth..."

"Stuart factor appears..."

Wow!!! All that springing and leaping!!! With all due respect to
Professor Doolittle, he attributes these leaps and springs to gene
duplication and by undirected, random duplication and recombination of
gene pieces. The first problem is, however, that if a gene is
duplicated, it would not immediately have these new, necessary
properties, it would produce a protein with the old properties! How did
these new, duplicated genes acquire these new properties? If we relegate
the new functions to shuffling of gene pieces or beneficial mutations,
how many worthless, unusable proteins would have to be tried before the
correct one was "found"? Professor Doolittle also does not answer the
crucial questions of how much factor is formed, where is it formed and
how fast is it formed. Any changes in the exact location, quantity and
timing of the appearance of these factors would produce inappropriate
clots, that would harm the organism. All of the factors have to be
introduced at the same time, in the correct proportions and in the
correct location for the whole system to work.

In short, Professor Doolittle's explanation doesn't hold...blood :-)

How is this different from magic?




  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,17:55   

I propose we go back to discussing psychedelic music on this thread. I think it'd serve a lot more of a purpose.

Here, I'll start:

Jefferson Airplane, best album: After Bathing at Baxters
Pink Floyd: either Piper at the Gates of Dawn or Saucerfull of Secrets.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Venus Mousetrap



Posts: 201
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,18:06   

Quote (charlie wagner @ Aug. 22 2008,17:37)
Quote
What is the difference between 'religious creationism' and 'magic man done it creationism'?


What is the difference between darwinism and "magic man done it evolution?"

lets see what Professor Doolittle has to say on this subject:

http://www-biology.ucsd.edu/faculty/doolittle.html

"Tissue factor appears..."

"Prothrombin appears..."

"A Thrombin receptor is fashioned..."

"Fibrinogen is born..."

"Antithrombin III appears..."

"Plasminogen is generated..."

Antiplasmin arises..."

"A thrombin-activatable protein is unleashed..."

"Plasminogen activator springs forth..."

"Stuart factor appears..."

Wow!!! All that springing and leaping!!! With all due respect to
Professor Doolittle, he attributes these leaps and springs to gene
duplication and by undirected, random duplication and recombination of
gene pieces. The first problem is, however, that if a gene is
duplicated, it would not immediately have these new, necessary
properties, it would produce a protein with the old properties! How did
these new, duplicated genes acquire these new properties?

I know it's an esoteric process you may not have heard of, but it's called evolution.

If a gene is duplicated, the organism still has the functionality of the old gene, as you point out, which means that a mutation in that section is now no longer as dangerous to the organism. This is one reason why irreducible complexity is a load of bollocks; this gene duplication process is a safety net which gives the genome more material to play with - and not only that, but material which ALREADY is in a useful shape, and which could easily be bent to other shapes.

And guess what? Because this isn't some undefined, wishy-washy bullshit like 'intelligence only comes from intelligence', we can actually test it with simulations, maybe even by looking at real genes.

And guess what? When we look at DNA, we often find sequences which look EXACTLY LIKE they were duplicated in this way.

And then you come along and wonder why we can't accept the obvious truth that stuff looks designed. Hello? We can has evidence for our position. Try some.

Quote

If we relegate
the new functions to shuffling of gene pieces or beneficial mutations,
how many worthless, unusable proteins would have to be tried before the
correct one was "found"?


English plz?

Quote

Professor Doolittle also does not answer the
crucial questions of how much factor is formed, where is it formed and
how fast is it formed. Any changes in the exact location, quantity and
timing of the appearance of these factors would produce inappropriate
clots, that would harm the organism. All of the factors have to be
introduced at the same time, in the correct proportions and in the
correct location for the whole system to work.


You know this how? I don't believe you. Show me why this is true.

Quote
In short, Professor Doolittle's explanation doesn't hold...blood :-)

How is this different from magic?


Because one is testable, and one involves pixies.

Quote



  
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