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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Arden Chatfield Linguistics Chat

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k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 19 2007,01:33    Quote (Richardthughes @ April 19 2007,07:20) PHONON - ARE YOU A PARTICLES OR A WAVE? MAKE UP YOU'RE MIND, LIBERAL HOMO. :angry: HE'S A PHONON STUPID, WHICH IS A ZERO ENERGY PARTICLE THINGY, INFINITE WAVELENGTH WAVE WITH A SHAMROCK INFORMATION CONTENT OF 0 BITS PER PARSEC SQUARED. IT'S SIMPLE, ANYONE WITH AN IQ ABOVE AN APHID'S CAN WORK THIS OUT. TOSS A COIN, HEADS THE DESIGNER IS AND TAILS HE IS TOO. SEE. ITS ALL IN BILL'S NEW PEON REVIEWED BOOK "HOW TO HORNSWOGGLE A BOOK GRANT" NOW DON'T MAKE ME DO YOUR WORK FOR YOU, IF YOU WANT TO STAY HERE; HOMO -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Reluctant Cannibal Posts: 36 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 23 2007,15:52    Bump! I have a question that I have been carrying around for a while in case I should ever meet a working linguist: What's your take on Merritt Ruhlen and the Proto-world hypothesis? And how far back are the limits of reconstruction? I have "On the origin of language", and I thought it was interesting, but I'm not persuaded. The consensus view on the interwebs seems to be that he's a bit of a crank, and some of the semantic grouping seem farfetched to me. But it would be so cool! (I'm into linguistics at the popular science level. I'm learning Russian by slowly wading through novels and newspapers with a dictionary).

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 23 2007,16:47    Quote What's your take on Merritt Ruhlen and the Proto-world hypothesis? Do you want my polite answer or my tactless answer?   -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

argystokes Posts: 766 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 23 2007,20:50    Arden, I'm playing a game of 20 questions, and the most recent question is "Does he have a silent h in his name?" The person in question has a "th" in their name pronounce as in "thousand." Should I answer yes or no? Wikipedia's entry on silent letters is unclear: Quote "exocentric" digraphs, where the sound of the digraph is different from that of either of its constituent letters. These are rarely considered "silent". The person in question also has an "ei" in his name that sounds like a long e, as in "ceiling." Thanks! -------------- "Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 23 2007,21:22    This is the greatest discussion board of all time.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 23 2007,22:04    Quote (argystokes @ April 23 2007,20:50) Arden, I'm playing a game of 20 questions, and the most recent question is "Does he have a silent h in his name?" The person in question has a "th" in their name pronounce as in "thousand." Should I answer yes or no? Wikipedia's entry on silent letters is unclear:     Quote "exocentric" digraphs, where the sound of the digraph is different from that of either of its constituent letters. These are rarely considered "silent". The person in question also has an "ei" in his name that sounds like a long e, as in "ceiling." Thanks! I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking me whether in words like 'thousand', if the 'h' is silent? No. 'Th' is a digraph. But I can see why someone might think the 'h' was silent. Try 'Keith'. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

argystokes Posts: 766 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 23 2007,23:09    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 23 2007,20:04) Quote (argystokes @ April 23 2007,20:50) Arden, I'm playing a game of 20 questions, and the most recent question is "Does he have a silent h in his name?" The person in question has a "th" in their name pronounce as in "thousand." Should I answer yes or no? Wikipedia's entry on silent letters is unclear:       Quote "exocentric" digraphs, where the sound of the digraph is different from that of either of its constituent letters. These are rarely considered "silent". The person in question also has an "ei" in his name that sounds like a long e, as in "ceiling." Thanks! I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking me whether in words like 'thousand', if the 'h' is silent? No. 'Th' is a digraph. But I can see why someone might think the 'h' was silent. Try 'Keith'. Thanks, that was my question. -------------- "Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 23 2007,23:49    ALRIGHT SHUT UP AND LISTEN CAUSE I'M TALKIN'. OOOH LOOK AT ME I'M ARDEN CHATTERBOX. TALKING TWO MUCH IS FOR WOMEN. ARDEN TALKS TWO MUCH. THAT IS BECAUSE HE IS LIKE A WOMAN. I BET YOU TALK FOR HOURS ON THE PHONE ABOUT AMERICAN IDOL WITH YOUR OTHER BIRD-BRIAN FRIENDS. QUICK, ARDEN, HOME AND GARDEN TV IS ON. THEY'RE DOING A MAKE-OVER ON OXYGEN! RIGHT I'M OFF TO READ SOME HARD SCI-FI AND YOU NEED TO WATCH DIRTY DANCING FOR THE 74TH TIME. PS. HOMO. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Reluctant Cannibal Posts: 36 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 24 2007,01:57    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 23 2007,22:47) Quote What's your take on Merritt Ruhlen and the Proto-world hypothesis? Do you want my polite answer or my tactless answer?  ;) Let's have the tactless answer -- it's bound to be more entertaining. I think I know what it's going to be ...

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 24 2007,13:47    Quote (Richardthughes @ April 23 2007,23:49) ALRIGHT SHUT UP AND LISTEN CAUSE I'M TALKIN'. OOOH LOOK AT ME I'M ARDEN CHATTERBOX. TALKING TWO MUCH IS FOR WOMEN. ARDEN TALKS TWO MUCH. THAT IS BECAUSE HE IS LIKE A WOMAN. I BET YOU TALK FOR HOURS ON THE PHONE ABOUT AMERICAN IDOL WITH YOUR OTHER BIRD-BRIAN FRIENDS. QUICK, ARDEN, HOME AND GARDEN TV IS ON. THEY'RE DOING A MAKE-OVER ON OXYGEN! RIGHT I'M OFF TO READ SOME HARD SCI-FI AND YOU NEED TO WATCH DIRTY DANCING FOR THE 74TH TIME. PS. HOMO. OKAY HOMOES LISTEN UP: SPEAKING OF HOMOES USING MY NORTH-OF-150 SAT SCORES AND SUPERIOR COMPUTOR SKILLS I FINALY FOUND A COPIE OF A PHOTO OF THE REAL RICHARD T HUGHES: AND HERE'S HIS 'GIRLFRIEND': IF WE'RE DESSENDED FROM APES, HOW COME WE STILL HAVE RICHARD? ? ROTFL! I SLAY ME SOMETIMES! -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 24 2007,14:08    Quote (Reluctant Cannibal @ April 24 2007,01:57)   Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 23 2007,22:47)     Quote What's your take on Merritt Ruhlen and the Proto-world hypothesis? Do you want my polite answer or my tactless answer?  ;) Let's have the tactless answer -- it's bound to be more entertaining. I think I know what it's going to be ... short tactless answer: Ruhlen is a bonehead and a disgrace as a linguist. short more polite answer: the bottomline problem with Ruhlen's extremely lax methodology is that it's unfalsifiable. His methodology can 'prove' relatedness between ANY two languages or language families. Therefore's it's vacuous. This was vividly demonstrated in print in a review of Joseph Greenberg's (Ruhlen's mentor and big influence)  Language in the Americas, where reviewer Lyle Campbell demonstrated that using JG's methodology, he (LC) could just as easily 'prove' that Nahuatl and Finnish are related (something JG did NOT claim). In a textbook example of Missing The Point, JG replied "of course Nahuatl and Finnish aren't related, if they were I would have noticed it". Erm, okay... Another little problem with Ruhlen's work is that he lacks expertise in any of the language families he discusses, and seems not to consult with people who *are* experts, so he ends up with countless misinterpretations of the basic data. At that point, the garbage-in, garbage-out principle takes over. My personal hunch is that at around 8,000-10,000 years (2,000 years before FTK thinks the world was created), it becomes impossible to demonstrate language relatedness as opposed to diffusion or simple coincidence. It's possible that someday someone will prove language relatedness at a deeper level than that, but I haven't seen it yet. Of course a fundamental problem is that it's extremely difficult to assign ages for the world's older language families with any great confidence. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Steviepinhead Posts: 532 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 24 2007,15:34    Actually, that sounded pretty polite. But maybe my standards have been eroded after too much time spent in pounding on the head of DaffyAFfyDavey...

Reluctant Cannibal Posts: 36 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 24 2007,16:16    Thanks Arden -- I thought that was the situation, but it's nice to have some confirmation. Just googling for the info might drag up lots of misinformation that a layman can't easily assess. The first thing that seemed a bit off when I read The Origin of Language was all the railing against his critics and detractors. Then there was the giant leap from the 8,000-10,000 year horizon to the 80,000 necessary to square the out-of-Africa hypothesis with the lumping of African languages (especially San) with non-African into Proto-world. (I'm pretty much convinced by the out-of-Africa hypothesis).

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 24 2007,20:58    Re "I BET YOU TALK FOR HOURS ON THE PHONE ABOUT AMERICAN IDOL WITH YOUR OTHER BIRD-BRIAN FRIENDS. " Now that's a fowl accusation. Henry

blipey Posts: 2061 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 24 2007,22:23    And now for something completely different.  Well, for this thread.  I was reading a book a couple of months ago about the Gypsies that I thought was fascinating.  It seemed to not be able to pin down the origins of the Gypsy people, but talked a lot about language. In fact, one of the people in the book was a linguist the author had met and who was accepted into the Gypsy community (as much as outsiders can be) to a fairly large degree.  Sorry, I can't recall his name right now and the book is back in KC. I was wondering, Arden, if you had any input on the origin of the Gypsy?  Are they an Indian sub-continent people?  Have you studied any of the origin or development of the Romani language? -------------- But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 24 2007,23:05    Quote (blipey @ April 24 2007,22:23) And now for something completely different.  Well, for this thread.  I was reading a book a couple of months ago about the Gypsies that I thought was fascinating.  It seemed to not be able to pin down the origins of the Gypsy people, but talked a lot about language. In fact, one of the people in the book was a linguist the author had met and who was accepted into the Gypsy community (as much as outsiders can be) to a fairly large degree.  Sorry, I can't recall his name right now and the book is back in KC. I was wondering, Arden, if you had any input on the origin of the Gypsy?  Are they an Indian sub-continent people?  Have you studied any of the origin or development of the Romani language? Ian Hancock? The origins of Romany aren't controversial. It's related to languages of north India such as Hindi and Punjabi, though it's borrowed a vast amount of vocabulary in its slow wanderings from India to Europe. In fact, the Indo-Aryan affinity of Romany is how they first figured out that the Gypsies came from India. See here. I haven't studied Romany myself, but I have a friend who's studied it for years and years, which is how I found out most of what I know about it. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: April 24 2007,23:26    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 17 2007,20:55) Hey! That reminds me: my favorite 'grammar joke': Two travelers are on a plane, a cowboy and a grammarian. Cowboy: "So where you heading to?" Grammarian: "Where *I* come from, it's considered bad grammar to end a sentence with a preposition." Cowboy: "So where you heading to, assho1e?" The ALA was having a conference in Boston.  A visiting linguist was told that he should go to the harbor area to try a fish delicacy, New England scrod. He took a cab from the hotel and asked the cabbie, "Can you take me to where I can get scrod?" The cabbie, who happened to be an English major, replied, "I have never heard that particular conjugation used in conversation, but there are hookers all over town." -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 25 2007,00:49    Quote The cabbie, who happened to be an English major, replied, "I have never heard that particular conjugation used in conversation, but there are hookers all over town." YEAH, HOMOS? WELL TAHT'S WHAT I'D EXPECT A FORRIN MAJOR TO SAY. IN TEH US MARINES, OUR MAJORS COULD EAT BROKEN GLASS AND SHIT BOTTLES AND THEY DIDN'T MESS ROUND SCRODING HOOKERS, THEY WERE REAL MEN..... EVEN WHEN THEY WORE DRESSES. -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2010,19:39    If I sacrifice a goat and ressurect this thread will Arden return? Louis -------------- Bye.

keiths Posts: 2195 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2010,20:46    Quote (Louis @ Mar. 02 2010,17:39) If I sacrifice a goat and ressurect this thread will Arden return? Louis Good move putting a spelling error in there.  He might come back just to correct you. -------------- And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,03:11    Quote (keiths @ Mar. 03 2010,01:46) Quote (Louis @ Mar. 02 2010,17:39) If I sacrifice a goat and ressurect this thread will Arden return? Louis Good move putting a spelling error in there.  He might come back just to correct you. Yeah, that was on purpose and everything. Honest. Louis ETA: I do have a linguistic question. Isn't Portuguese a mixture of French and Spanish? -------------- Bye.

huwp Posts: 172 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,05:05    Arden is a proper linguist and so would undoubtedly be able to answer your question in a proper linguistic fashion. Unlike you boffin sciency types, my degree is in French and Italian so I might be able to help.  Possibly, perhaps, maybe. However, as the AFDave assertion about Portuguese being a mixture of French and Spanish was one of the funniest things ever seen on this board (although bearing in mind much of the "humour" involves LOLcats and "your mother" jokes, there isn't a lot of competition) I know you don't really want an answer to that. So, I think you just want Arden back so you can get down and dirty with some proper man-lovin'. Jus' sayin' is all. Huwp

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,06:41    Quote (huwp @ Mar. 03 2010,10:05) [SNIP] However, as the AFDave assertion about Portuguese being a mixture of French and Spanish was one of the funniest things ever seen on this board (although bearing in mind much of the "humour" involves LOLcats and "your mother" jokes, there isn't a lot of competition) I know you don't really want an answer to that. [SNIP] Bolding mine. How very dare you! I resemble that remark. Quote So, I think you just want Arden back so you can get down and dirty with some proper man-lovin'. Jus' sayin' is all. Huwp Or I was just bored and trawling through some old stuff whilst gripped by ramapnt insomnia. Nahhhh, that's utterly implausible. Go with the first one. Rather like your mother did. Ooooh see what I did there? Louis -------------- Bye.

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,12:30    Quote (Louis @ Mar. 03 2010,03:11) ETA: I do have a linguistic question. Isn't Portuguese a mixture of French and Spanish? He should be here shortly. I told him you needed help translating pickup lines from English into sheep. -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,12:35    Quote (Louis @ Mar. 03 2010,01:11)   Quote (keiths @ Mar. 03 2010,01:46)     Quote (Louis @ Mar. 02 2010,17:39) If I sacrifice a goat and ressurect this thread will Arden return? Louis Good move putting a spelling error in there.  He might come back just to correct you. Yeah, that was on purpose and everything. Honest. Suuuuuuuure it was. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,12:36    Quote (Louis @ Mar. 02 2010,17:39) If I sacrifice a goat Is that what you call it now? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,12:39    yay! it worked. the package is in the mail. Hi Arden. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,12:42    Hey, this better be important, I had to take time off from Louis's wife to come here. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,12:46    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Mar. 03 2010,10:42) Hey, this better be important, I had to take time off from Louis's wife to come here. So, I can take a turn while you're busy here? -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,12:50    Quote (BWE @ Mar. 03 2010,10:46) Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Mar. 03 2010,10:42) Hey, this better be important, I had to take time off from Louis's wife to come here. So, I can take a turn while you're busy here? Are you getting tired of Louis's mum already? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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