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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 2, general discussion of Dembski's site< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Zachriel



Posts: 2717
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,17:42   

Quote
gpuccio: But there is no model which can explain the step by step derivation of myoglobin from some other simpler protein with a different function.

Of course myoglobin is one of a large family of well-studied molecules which also includes hemoglobin. They evolved from a protoglobins and perhaps trace back to the Last Universal Common Ancestor.

Oldest Hemoglobin Ancestors Offer Clues to Earliest Oxygen-Based Life



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You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
stevestory



Posts: 12066
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,18:21   

I don't mind if someone goes off topic on this thread, so long as that's not the majority of what that person does. The more you contribute to the thread's topic, the more leniency you build, within reason.

'Course, I also have to give props to people who always bring their A game. Zachriel, for instance, who I consider the Alexey Stakhanov of mining the tard from Uncommonly Dense.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,20:01   

Yeah.. Zachriel could win POTW everytime he posts...

It's just not fair!  

He cheats and uses science and stuff like that!  And thank you for doing it Z-Man.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 12066
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,20:11   

Just in case anyone's wondering, AtBC gets about 3000 pageviews a day. Of that, 1300 are the UD thread. Just FYI.

   
Ptaylor



Posts: 1140
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,20:34   

This gave me a chuckle. Over on the Is Evolution Biased? thread BA77 decides to derail it in the first comment, linking to a godtube video of a creationist using mathematics to show that evilution is impossible. (BTW, Larry Moran has a good takedown of the guy.)
The maths is all over BA's head and new (I think) commenter B L Harville decides he also needs advice on the English language:
 
Quote

[quoting a previous comment]“Do you know if he applied natural selection to the algorithm? I wasn’t sure after I watched it the first time.”

He is assuming no selection. The speaker is assuming that genes are put together at random and then calculates the odds against that happening. The odds of course turn out to be astronomical so he concludes that evolution is impossible. When your conclusion is the same as your assumption you are committing a logical fallacy known as a “tautology.”

(My emph.)

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
khan



Posts: 1539
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,21:02   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Jan. 27 2009,21:34)
This gave me a chuckle. Over on the Is Evolution Biased? thread BA77 decides to derail it in the first comment, linking to a godtube video of a creationist using mathematics to show that evilution is impossible. (BTW, Larry Moran has a good takedown of the guy.)
The maths is all over BA's head and new (I think) commenter B L Harville decides he also needs advice on the English language:
   
Quote

[quoting a previous comment]“Do you know if he applied natural selection to the algorithm? I wasn’t sure after I watched it the first time.”

He is assuming no selection. The speaker is assuming that genes are put together at random and then calculates the odds against that happening. The odds of course turn out to be astronomical so he concludes that evolution is impossible. When your conclusion is the same as your assumption you are committing a logical fallacy known as a “tautology.”

(My emph.)

Please don't entice me to do the hard tard.

I'm getting too old for the straight stuff.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 12066
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,23:02   

Quote (khan @ Jan. 27 2009,22:02)
Please don't entice me to do the hard tard.

I'm getting too old for the straight stuff.

"Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever?"

--Dan Daly, USMC, Belleau Wood, France, 1918

   
stevestory



Posts: 12066
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,23:18   

Actually, I can't advocate doing the hard tard. I would be depressed if you suffered crippling effects from too much tard exposure. Should you experience crippling effects from tard overexposure, however, If it makes you feel any better, know that whatever you're feeling, I'm either already feeling, or will feel shortly, when the prophylactic booze wears off. :-)

   
stevestory



Posts: 12066
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,23:21   

It is a little weird, I have to say, that such a percentage of my life revolves around laughing at a group of clueless people. It's a smaller percentage than a few years ago, when I was ODing on it, but a damnably high percentage nonetheless.

   
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,03:09   

stevestory: Are you utilizing the 12 Steps for your recovery?

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
tsig



Posts: 339
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,03:38   

Quote (huwp @ Jan. 27 2009,17:19)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Jan. 27 2009,17:08)
No. The sweater is not the tent.  But, you are in luck because I used my mad google skillz to find a picture of the creation of the ID Big Tent.  


Whilst I am in awe of teh mad google skillz, I'm not sure I'd describe that picture as tasteful.  I'm just glad we didn't get something from your horse collection.

However, I suppose it really could depict the genesis of the ID Big Tent.

Well I always thought it referred to the Big Top, the biggest tent in the circus.

Bring in the clowns
Too late
They are here

  
Amadan



Posts: 1335
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,05:33   

Quote (tsig @ Jan. 28 2009,03:38)
 
Quote (huwp @ Jan. 27 2009,17:19)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Jan. 27 2009,17:08)
No. The sweater is not the tent.  But, you are in luck because I used my mad google skillz to find a picture of the creation of the ID Big Tent.  


Whilst I am in awe of teh mad google skillz, I'm not sure I'd describe that picture as tasteful.  I'm just glad we didn't get something from your horse collection.

However, I suppose it really could depict the genesis of the ID Big Tent.

Well I always thought it referred to the Big Top, the biggest tent in the circus.

Bring in the clowns
Too late
They are here

This is unfair and in poor taste.

As previously displayed photos have demonstrated, Ddrr Dembski suffers from an acute medical condition having the technical name Tacky Cardie (ugh).

Mocking those less attractive, fortunate, intelligent, or educated than oneself if a deplorable thing and certainly would never be tolerated in this forum.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
CeilingCat



Posts: 2236
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,06:20   

Quote without comment:

djmullen:
Quote
I’ve been reading your messages about BLASTing protein sequences and I’m uncomfortably reminded of Salvador Cordova’s Avida fiasco.

gpuccio
Quote
Second, I feel honored of being compared to Salvador Cordova.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1478
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,07:28   

Quote
'Course, I also have to give props to people who always bring their A game. Zachriel, for instance, who I consider the Alexey Stakhanov of mining the tard from Uncommonly Dense.


And at the same time, Zachriel also finds time to inject doses of reality and logic at TT. An indubitable indomitable polymath!

( OT: For Louis)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,07:42   

Quote (Alan Fox @ Jan. 28 2009,13:28)
Quote
'Course, I also have to give props to people who always bring their A game. Zachriel, for instance, who I consider the Alexey Stakhanov of mining the tard from Uncommonly Dense.


And at the same time, Zachriel also finds time to inject doses of reality and logic at TT. An indubitable indomitable polymath!

( OT: For Louis)

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I understand now!

Thanks

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,09:03   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Jan. 27 2009,20:34)
This gave me a chuckle. Over on the Is Evolution Biased? thread BA77 decides to derail it in the first comment, linking to a godtube video of a creationist using mathematics to show that evilution is impossible. (BTW, Larry Moran has a good takedown of the guy.)
The maths is all over BA's head and new (I think) commenter B L Harville decides he also needs advice on the English language:
   
Quote

[quoting a previous comment]“Do you know if he applied natural selection to the algorithm? I wasn’t sure after I watched it the first time.”

He is assuming no selection. The speaker is assuming that genes are put together at random and then calculates the odds against that happening. The odds of course turn out to be astronomical so he concludes that evolution is impossible. When your conclusion is the same as your assumption you are committing a logical fallacy known as a “tautology.”

(My emph.)

Yeah, and when did Darwin ever say that "if it could be shown that any change in an organism was harmful, then his theory would be overturned"?

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” - Charles Darwin

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2717
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,09:27   

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 27 2009,18:21)
Zachriel, for instance, who I consider the Alexey Stakhanov of mining the tard from Uncommonly Dense.

Thank you, Comrade. It's not easy Our Duty to keep the mob The People entertained Enlightened as we try not to get trampled March into the Glorious Future.



And now back to the propaganda show, Uncommon Descent. Rna warns our hero, gpuccio.

Quote
rna: I would be really careful in any statements regarding the possible distribution of functional proteins in sequence space. This is an area under intense experimental investigation and I don’t think a consensus view is emerging yet... In vitro selection experiments typically start with a pool of random RNA sequence of 40 to 70 nucleotides in length e. g. with a sequence space of 4 to the power of 40 or ~ 10 the power of 24. Due to technical limitations normally only 10 to the power of 14 molecules can be synthetized and investigated (more do not fit in a test tube :-)). Thus only a very tiny fraction of the possible sequence space can be explored in these experiments. Yet, in these experiments normally not only one but multiple solutions to a given problem are found and normally on must restrict oneself to look only for the most abundant solutions... Thus, the assumption you made of functional proteins being remote islands in sequence space is maybe a little premature.

Will gpuccio ignore the evidence from Rna? What will our hero do!!??

--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2717
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,09:51   

Quote
gpuccio: But in my posts I was just responding to the statements made by others that all functional proteins would lie in a “sweet spot” of the search space, and that therefore no search was really necessary. That is simply false.

I can't believe gpuccio still doesn't understand the argument. Evolutionary search starts with viable replicators. That means they are already located within whatever portion of the search landscape that constitutes a viable replicator, the "sweet spot".

Quote
gpuccio: That is absolutely true, and requires a search to get to the different islands of functional structures.

Gpuccio is assuming common descent (and mangling that). Thousands of different functional sequences can be generated randomly. Extant proteins may share the same origin without having a single common ancestral sequence.

Quote
gpuccio: But there is no doubt that they are islands, and that they are interspersed in the ocean.

Even if they shared a common ancestral sequence, evolutionary processes can still lead to widely divergent results. Gpuccio keeps saying (in molecular terms) that butterflies can't evolve into bats (mangling common descent).

--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,10:15   

Quote (Kristine @ Jan. 28 2009,15:03)
Yeah, and when did Darwin ever say that "if it could be shown that any change in an organism was harmful, then his theory would be overturned"?

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” - Charles Darwin

They're probably thinking of Charles Strawrwin. Easy mistake.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,12:12   

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 27 2009,23:02)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 27 2009,22:02)
Please don't entice me to do the hard tard.

I'm getting too old for the straight stuff.

"Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever?"

--Dan Daly, USMC, Belleau Wood, France, 1918

LOVE THE QUOTE...

Davey eat your heart out, you miserable excuse for a pimple on a real Marine's buttocks...



Semper Fi to a real marine.Dan Daly Wiki

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 12066
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,12:27   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Jan. 28 2009,07:20)
gpuccio  
Quote
Second, I feel honored of being compared to Salvador Cordova.

That's it. I've got to bail. I can't take this concentration of tard right now. Back later.

   
sparc



Posts: 2017
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,12:38   

After receiving the following message
Quote
Sorry, you do not have permission to reply to that topic

You are currently logged in as sparc
I've sent a mail to Arden and voila it works again. Thank you so much.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
khan



Posts: 1539
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,12:43   

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 28 2009,13:27)
Quote (CeilingCat @ Jan. 28 2009,07:20)
gpuccio  
Quote
Second, I feel honored of being compared to Salvador Cordova.

That's it. I've got to bail. I can't take this concentration of tard right now. Back later.

"A man's got to know his limitations."

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,12:52   

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 28 2009,12:27)
Quote (CeilingCat @ Jan. 28 2009,07:20)
gpuccio  
Quote
Second, I feel honored of being compared to Salvador Cordova.

That's it. I've got to bail. I can't take this concentration of tard right now. Back later.

I have a theory, which is mine.  My theory is this:

There is a black hole from which none of The Arguments Regarding Design may escape.  The arguments pass through the singularity, and come out of a white hole, located at UD.

As proof of my theory, note that white holes have the same properties as black holes outside the event horizon.  Massive gravity.  In other words, they suck.

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,12:56   

Wait, Steve! Wait! We have a paper on the table! :D
   
Quote
tribune7, 01/28/2009, 1:16 pm
I would say, we won.

Would you now, Tribby?
   
Quote
Many emergent systems of interacting agents can be described in terms of their potential to accomplish one or more quantifiable tasks.

The trouble with Tribby is that he did a search for "agent" and "function" and got all excited, and then he read:
   
Quote
In competitive systems, notably genetic information constrained by length-selective pressure in living systems [emphasis mine], longer sequences may prove inefficient and do not necessarily confer and advantage.

but I wouldn't take his case for ID before Judge Judy just yet.

1. What we have here, in my inexpert opinion at a quick first reading, is natural selection.
2. This hardly supports Michael Behe's attempts to impress young college students with the astounding length of the human genetic code, pointing at its sheer size to argue for design (as he did at the U of M in September 2005).

As Judge Judy says, Tribune7, if your friend sits on the toilet and it happens at that moment to break, that does not mean that your friend "broke the toilet." She repeats that point several times. Listen carefully. :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,12:58   

Quote (sparc @ Jan. 28 2009,10:38)
After receiving the following message    
Quote
Sorry, you do not have permission to reply to that topic

You are currently logged in as sparc
I've sent a mail to Arden and voila it works again. Thank you so much.



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,13:00   

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 28 2009,10:27)
Quote (CeilingCat @ Jan. 28 2009,07:20)
gpuccio  
Quote
Second, I feel honored of being compared to Salvador Cordova.

That's it. I've got to bail. I can't take this concentration of tard right now. Back later.

In your weakened state, don't even THINK of clicking on this. :O

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,13:20   

In your weakened state, don't even THINK of clicking on this.[/URL] :O[/quote]

hmmm...

Seems to me that the only difference between them and OUR UD Tardareffic ID Fundys ™, is that our UD knuckleheads know way more sciencey sounding stuff than your average Fundy.

They might talk in Bible-speak, Dembski might talk in Bible Code, but at the end of the day, it is still Halle-effin-luya, godstilldidit...end of science, and end of of story.

And you know what they say:
"Once you go hard-tard at UD...
You can just snear at a Fundy."

added in edit - OOOPS sorry OI screwed up the quote...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
sparc



Posts: 2017
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,13:34   

Quote
27 January 2009
Missile Guidance Systems and Darwinian Logic
GilDodgen

Seemingly nobody informed Gil that the most effective weapon of the ID movement is BS carpet bombing.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,13:58   

Quote (sparc @ Jan. 28 2009,13:34)
   
Quote
27 January 2009
Missile Guidance Systems and Darwinian Logic
GilDodgen

Seemingly nobody informed Gil that the most effective weapon of the ID movement is BS carpet bombing.

That is probably because no one is paying attention to Gil anymore. His repertoire is rather limited:

Pick one these:
   
Quote

a) I am a musician and evolution can't explain music and art
b) I program computers and DNA is a program
c) You can't simulate evolution without making random changes to the computer
d) I can divide 1 by a really larger and get a really small number
e) I used to be an atheist

and one of these:
   
Quote

1) therefore Darwin is wrong.
2) so I am Richard Dawkins worst nightmare
3) and anyone can see the probability is greater than the number of particles in the universe.

Concatenate the two together and you have the entirety of Gil's contribution to ID.



Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 07 2010,11:23

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
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