Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::VMartin's cosmology

VMartin

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,14:54

Quote (IanBrown_101 @ Mar. 24 2008,13:31)

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,18:53)

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 23 2008,07:28)

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 23 2008,01:35)

Albatrossity2

Quote

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

You use words you don't underestand. What do you mean by "to mimic"?

Huh. I thought you were the one who brought up this topic. It's pretty sad when you admit you don't even know the definition of a word you have been throwing around in your last hundred comments or so.

mimic = "look like"

Thanks

So you think that placental wolfs are "mimicking" marsupial wolfs?

Well, no, he wasn't actually making any claims.

He was asking what you thought explains the fact that some animals look like others. So what do you think?

It depends on animals. Some sabretooth's animals looked surprisingly similar but nobody called the cases of convergent evolution as "mimicry" - except Albatrossity2.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

VMartin

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,14:58

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 24 2008,14:19)

Quote (jeannot @ Mar. 24 2008,13:25)

Martin has got a point here. Defining mimicry is not straightforward. Probably, wikipedia has a definition. Care to look at it, Martin?

Also, the authors of the Nature paper did some measures of predation on snakes, which supported their hypothesis. What say you?

I agree. I am not sure that V understands it past the "looks alike" cursory definition, however. Note that he didn't really answer the question (again) but rather came back with another question.

Sigh.

V. Please try again, using whatever definition of "mimic" yanks your chain.

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

Unless you define what do you mean by "to mimic" I am afraid our discussion has no sense. You don't even know what you are asking. Btw. have you ever heard of "convergent evolution"? What do you think, what is the difference between "convergent evolution" and "mimicry"?

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

Arden Chatfield

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,15:02

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,14:58)

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 24 2008,14:19)

Quote (jeannot @ Mar. 24 2008,13:25)

Martin has got a point here. Defining mimicry is not straightforward. Probably, wikipedia has a definition. Care to look at it, Martin?

Also, the authors of the Nature paper did some measures of predation on snakes, which supported their hypothesis. What say you?

I agree. I am not sure that V understands it past the "looks alike" cursory definition, however. Note that he didn't really answer the question (again) but rather came back with another question.

Sigh.

V. Please try again, using whatever definition of "mimic" yanks your chain.

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

Unless you define what do you mean by "to mimic" I am afraid our discussion has no sense. You don't even know what you are asking. Btw. have you ever heard about "convergent evolution"? What do you think, what is the difference between "convergent evolution" and "mimicry"?

Nonanswer. Try again.

Remember how back in high school nonanswers like that would get you flunked?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Arden Chatfield

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,15:04

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,14:48)

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Mar. 24 2008,13:22)

Martin, can you please explain in more detail this 'archetypical hatred of day birds and night birds'?

In particular, this empirical finding seems to verify the biblical prediction that bats are indeed birds. I am intrigued by your diligent hard work and of course I apologize for heaping such undeserved scorn upon a true sojourner for truth and knowledge. It must be difficult to be a piranha and I regret my participation in such behavior.

Shhh some one is coming....

Have you sobered up? What did you drink? Mojito with mexican urine?

Are you still working in the University department with that colleague of yours who doesn't know how to tell apart spiders and ants? What Unversity are you working at?

Is this your way of volunteering to tell us what university department YOU'RE at, Marty, or what your credentials are?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Erasmus, FCD

Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,15:04

Martin, the little kids are getting pissed off that you quit driving up and down their street and instead just sit outside the starbucks using their free internet. THE KIDS NEED THEIR ICE CREAM GODDAMMIT MARTY GET BACK TO WORK

By the way please let us know when you are available to go through our ant collection and pull out all of the spiders and beetles that are misidentified. I hear that there are some snake collectors that also need your expertise. And we need someone, preferably an untrained unskilled savant like yourself, to sort through all of the sticks in the forest and pull out the Phasmotodeans. Only you could do this Vicky. By the way nice accent there. HERE COMES YOUR BOSS GET BACK TO WORK!!! THOSE LIDS ARE NOT GOING TO SCREW THEMSELVES ON GODDAMMIT

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

VMartin

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,15:05

Ardent, you have a fine picture now. As soon as I notice it I skip the whole post. Did you write anything?

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

Arden Chatfield

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,15:07

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,15:05)

Ardent, you have a fine picture now. As soon as I notice it I skip the whole post. Did you write anything?

Martin, are you volunteering to tell us what university department you're at? Or what McDonald's in Bratislava you got fired from?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

VMartin

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,15:14

Erasmus after another shot of mojito with mexican urine:

Quote

By the way please let us know when you are available to go through our ant collection and pull out all of the spiders and beetles that are misidentified. I hear that there are some snake collectors that also need your expertise.

You didn't give us the names of ants and spiders your colleague from University could not tell apart after half an hour of observing (or more? Maybe he was observing them 6 hours while you were writing your scientific dissertation at AtBC). Btw. hasn't your University written above the main entrance something like Sanatorium? It would explain a lot about you and your "colleagues".

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

Arden Chatfield

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,15:18

Here we go, V:

Quote

Are you still working in the University department with that colleague of yours who doesn't know how to tell apart spiders and ants? What Unversity are you working at?

Since you're claiming to know your ass from a hole in the ground about biology & the darwinismus, it's only fair if you told us what University YOU are working at? What are your credentials? Are you at some 'special' university where having no explanations and not answering questions is rewarded? Or are you just working at a bank window or a McDonalds? It's only fair you should tell us, Marty.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Albatrossity2

Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,15:22

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,14:58)

Unless you define what do you mean by "to mimic" I am afraid our discussion has no sense. You don't even know what you are asking. Btw. have you ever heard of "convergent evolution"? What do you think, what is the difference between "convergent evolution" and "mimicry"?

V - I do know what I am asking. And I did define what I meant by "mimic". If it isn't satisfactory, please feel free to provide your own definition. Then, of course, you will have to answer the question. Please note that it has always been worded this way ("seem to mimic") so that you couldn't weasel out of it by flailing away at definitions of mimicry and pseudomimicry. Quit flailing. And please quit asking more questions before you answer this one.

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
- Pattiann Rogers

VMartin

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,15:28

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 24 2008,15:22)

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,14:58)

Unless you define what do you mean by "to mimic" I am afraid our discussion has no sense. You don't even know what you are asking. Btw. have you ever heard of "convergent evolution"? What do you think, what is the difference between "convergent evolution" and "mimicry"?

V - I do know what I am asking. And I did define what I meant by "mimic". If it isn't satisfactory, please feel free to provide your own definition. Then, of course, you will have to answer the question. Please note that it has always been worded this way ("seem to mimic") so that you couldn't weasel out of it by flailing away at definitions of mimicry and pseudomimicry. Quit flailing. And please quit asking more questions before you answer this one.

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

I have already defined "mimicry" here several times. Also for you. Read my answers to your posts please.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

Arden Chatfield

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,15:30

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,15:28)

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 24 2008,15:22)

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,14:58)

Unless you define what do you mean by "to mimic" I am afraid our discussion has no sense. You don't even know what you are asking. Btw. have you ever heard of "convergent evolution"? What do you think, what is the difference between "convergent evolution" and "mimicry"?

V - I do know what I am asking. And I did define what I meant by "mimic". If it isn't satisfactory, please feel free to provide your own definition. Then, of course, you will have to answer the question. Please note that it has always been worded this way ("seem to mimic") so that you couldn't weasel out of it by flailing away at definitions of mimicry and pseudomimicry. Quit flailing. And please quit asking more questions before you answer this one.

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

I have already defined "mimicry" here several times. Also for you. Read my answers to your posts please.

A definition is not an explanation, Marty. Nice try.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

jeannot

Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,16:47

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,14:51)

Quote (jeannot @ Mar. 24 2008,13:25)

Martin has got a point here. Defining mimicry is not straightforward. Probably, wikipedia has a definition. Care to look at it, Martin?

Also, the authors of the Nature paper did some measures of predation on snakes, which supported their hypothesis. What say you?

I have offered my definition of mimicry as Heikertinger had defined it. I've done it several times. It's not my problem that nobody at AtBC read my posts. There are several points which have to be fulfilled to enable a resemblance to be called as "mimicry".

Thanks Martin.
Now what about my second point?

Albatrossity2

Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,16:58

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,15:28)

I have already defined "mimicry" here several times. Also for you. Read my answers to your posts please.

Great. If you've defined it, then use that definition to answer the question. And don't accuse me of not reading your posts, when you have spent the last week not reading this:

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
- Pattiann Rogers

Arden Chatfield

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 24 2008,17:49

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 24 2008,16:58)

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,15:28)

I have already defined "mimicry" here several times. Also for you. Read my answers to your posts please.

Great. If you've defined it, then use that definition to answer the question. And don't accuse me of not reading your posts, when you have spent the last week not reading this:

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

I think I found the 'explanation of apparent mimicry' that Marty keeps insisting he gave us:

Quote

Who knows. You know life. Would you like to explain life? -Unless you are a darwinist of course.

I think we now know why Marty never passed his MA orals.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Alan Fox

Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

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Posted: Mar. 26 2008,04:01

Martin,

I wrote:

Quote

I can find no evidence of research into the possible mechanisms of mimicry in it. "Komarek' views" shed no light on any alternative explanation of mimicry, unless I have missed something.

You replied:

Quote

I suspect you of very superficial reading the material.

This is true, but I was merely scanning for evidence of research and any alternative explanation of mimicry; I found none and asked you to point some out. There is nothing in your reply that answers my question.

I see that one or two other posters have expressed a similar interest in hearing your alternative explanation.

You complain:

Quote

It's not my problem that nobody at AtBC read my posts.

Well, if you want to hold on to the few that are still bothering to glance at your comments, perhaps you could try a new strategy of answering a simple question, for example:

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

VMartin

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 26 2008,13:49

Quote (jeannot @ Mar. 24 2008,16:47)

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,14:51)

Quote (jeannot @ Mar. 24 2008,13:25)

Martin has got a point here. Defining mimicry is not straightforward. Probably, wikipedia has a definition. Care to look at it, Martin?

Also, the authors of the Nature paper did some measures of predation on snakes, which supported their hypothesis. What say you?

I have offered my definition of mimicry as Heikertinger had defined it. I've done it several times. It's not my problem that nobody at AtBC read my posts. There are several points which have to be fulfilled to enable a resemblance to be called as "mimicry".

Thanks Martin.
Now what about my second point?

Of course there might have been such a result. But I don't see why natural selection should have been involved in the origin of the resemblance.

You know marsupial wolfs look like placental wolfs but it doesn't mean they look similar because of natural selection via their predators. Even if scientists prove that plasteline models of marsupial wolfs are less attacked in the areas where placental wolfs live as compared with the areas where placental wolfs do not live.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

VMartin

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 26 2008,13:51

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 24 2008,16:58)

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 24 2008,15:28)

I have already defined "mimicry" here several times. Also for you. Read my answers to your posts please.

Great. If you've defined it, then use that definition to answer the question. And don't accuse me of not reading your posts, when you have spent the last week not reading this:

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

"Seem to mimic" to whom? To you? Than explain your question yourself. I don't think they are "mimicking" or "they seem to mimic" anything.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

VMartin

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 26 2008,14:06

Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 26 2008,04:01)

Martin,

I wrote:

Quote

I can find no evidence of research into the possible mechanisms of mimicry in it. "Komarek' views" shed no light on any alternative explanation of mimicry, unless I have missed something.

You replied:

Quote

I suspect you of very superficial reading the material.

This is true, but I was merely scanning for evidence of research and any alternative explanation of mimicry; I found none and asked you to point some out. There is nothing in your reply that answers my question.

I see that one or two other posters have expressed a similar interest in hearing your alternative explanation.

You complain:

Quote

It's not my problem that nobody at AtBC read my posts.

Well, if you want to hold on to the few that are still bothering to glance at your comments, perhaps you could try a new strategy of answering a simple question, for example:

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

You didn't bothered read my post where I quoted Komarek for you. Of course he like darwinists doesn't provide evidence. If you are looking for evidence á la neodarwinian explanation of mimicry you wouldn't find them in his book - but what you will find there is many
interesting ideas and observations

As to your last question, see my previous post to Albatrossity. My opinion is in accord with John Davison's claims in his Manifesto. The resemblance between marsupial and placental wolfs has been prescribed from the beginning. The same for the coloration of coral snakes, wasps and their so-called "mimics". It is nothing else as "pseudomimcry". In this case I am on the side of Davison, Heikertinger and Grobman. There are many species with the same color patterns which happen to live next to each other. Sometimes some of them (or better some of their plasteline models) may have some "survival advantage" from looking like their neighbours, but there was not natural selection involved in the origin of their coloration.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

Arden Chatfield

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 26 2008,14:15

Quote

In this case I am on the side of Davison,

Davison also has said God has died. Do you agree with that?

Quote

"Seem to mimic" to whom? To you? Than explain your question yourself. I don't think they are "mimicking" or "they seem to mimic" anything.

Wow. Doesn't look like you know what 'seem' means.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Albatrossity2

Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

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Posted: Mar. 26 2008,14:37

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 26 2008,14:06)

As to your last question, see my previous post to Albatrossity. My opinion is in accord with John Davison's claims in his Manifesto. The resemblance between marsupial and placental wolfs has been prescribed from the beginning. The same for the coloration of coral snakes, wasps and their so-called "mimics".

"Prescribed" brings us closer to an explanation, but it is still not a real explanation. Prescribed by who or what? And how was this prescription filled? And when was this "beginning"?

Thanks in advance

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
- Pattiann Rogers

Henry J

Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

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Posted: Mar. 26 2008,20:53

Quote

Prescribed by who or what?

The family doctor?

Henry

Erasmus, FCD

Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

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Posted: Mar. 26 2008,23:35

The Great Physician, of course.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Falk Macara

Posts: 11
Joined: Mar. 2008

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Posted: Mar. 27 2008,00:49

When you get around to answering

Quote

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

You could provide evidence supporting your assertion that

Quote

there was not natural selection involved in the origin of their coloration

Arden Chatfield

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 27 2008,09:12

Quote (Falk Macara @ Mar. 27 2008,00:49)

When you get around to answering

Quote

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

You could provide evidence supporting your assertion that

Quote

there was not natural selection involved in the origin of their coloration

I don't think we should get sidetracked, since we know from long experience that VM will never answer those questions.

VM just said this:

Quote

As to your last question, see my previous post to Albatrossity. My opinion is in accord with John Davison's claims in his Manifesto. The resemblance between marsupial and placental wolfs has been prescribed from the beginning. The same for the coloration of coral snakes, wasps and their so-called "mimics".

Albatrossity nailed it best:

Quote

"Prescribed" brings us closer to an explanation, but it is still not a real explanation. Prescribed by who or what? And how was this prescription filled? And when was this "beginning"?

That's what we need from our Slovakian creationist troll now:

What does 'prescribed' mean and how is 'prescribing' done?

Who 'prescribed' it?

When did this 'prescribing' happen?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

VMartin

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 27 2008,13:01

Quote (Falk Macara @ Mar. 27 2008,00:49)

When you get around to answering

Quote

What is your favored explanation of the origin of snakes that seem to mimic coral snakes?

You could provide evidence supporting your assertion that

Quote

there was not natural selection involved in the origin of their coloration

I see. The definition from the site:

Quote

biol: the close resemblance of one animal or plant species to another species, or to a non-living feature of its natural environment, which protects it from predators or enables it to deceive its prey.

This is very innacurate biological definition. But if you and other participants here think it is correct no wonder that discussion about "mimicry" is hampered by such superficial knowledge.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

IanBrown_101

Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

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Posted: Mar. 27 2008,13:08

V, read this very carefully.

If something seems to mimic something, it means it looks like it. It doesn't mean it "mimics" it for any other than the superficial definition whereby mimic simply means "looks like".

So, why do you think some snakes look like others? What process caused them to adopt this look, or was it by accident?

If it was prescribed, who did this, and how?

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I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

VMartin

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 27 2008,13:08

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 26 2008,14:37)

Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 26 2008,14:06)

As to your last question, see my previous post to Albatrossity. My opinion is in accord with John Davison's claims in his Manifesto. The resemblance between marsupial and placental wolfs has been prescribed from the beginning. The same for the coloration of coral snakes, wasps and their so-called "mimics".

"Prescribed" brings us closer to an explanation, but it is still not a real explanation. Prescribed by who or what? And how was this prescription filled? And when was this "beginning"?

Thanks in advance

It means that there was an innate tendency in variation in coloration. This has been set in the past and has nothing to do with natural selection. It can be explained as "self-represenation" of species as proposed by Swiss zoologist professor Adolf Portmann or as frontloading as proposed by professor John Davison in his Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis. Also other scientists considered so called "mimicry" as variation of coloration of different animals which happened to resemble each other.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

VMartin

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 27 2008,13:13

Quote (IanBrown_101 @ Mar. 27 2008,13:08)

V, read this very carefully.

If something seems to mimic something, it means it looks like it. It doesn't mean it "mimics" it for any other than the superficial definition whereby mimic simply means "looks like".

Are you sure? "Mimics" = "looks like"?

Do you think that marsupial wolfs mimic placental wolfs?

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

Mr_Christopher

Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

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Posted: Mar. 27 2008,13:20

snakes and testicles, snakes and testicles, snakes and testicles.

marty I'm beginning ti think you're soft in the head or possibly have a hidden desire/fetish you're not sharing with the class.

Just when did your obsession begin with snakes and testicles?

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

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