Dr.GH
Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002
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| Quote (dvunkannon @ Oct. 14 2008,14:31) | | Quote (Dr.GH @ Oct. 14 2008,15:44) | | Quote (dvunkannon @ Oct. 14 2008,08:19) | | Quote (Dr.GH @ Oct. 14 2008,10:20) | | The languages I was refering to were Akkadian, Ugaritic and Phoenician. But for that matter, bronze age biblical Hebrew is far different from modern Hebrew. There are many examples of wordplay in the Bible which does make it possible to imagine the pronunciations. If your rabbi thinks he speaks the same language as David or Moses, he is dreaming. |
Where do those languages appear in Genesis, other than place names?
I know that I don't speak the same language as Chaucer, and barely the same language as Shakespeare. While the vocabulary of modern Hebrew is much larger than what appears in the Bible, I'm not sure what you think has changed so much about Hebrew that my rabbi is dreaming. Orthography? Agreed. Phonology? Grammar? Shoresh and binyan?
The discrepancies of biblical and "modern" Hebrew are the subject of thousands of years of minute study. I'd guess most orthodox rabbis are very aware of where there is evidence of a change in the language.
But perhaps you are arguing that even the text of the Bible does not capture the language of 3-4,000 years ago, but dates from a later era. David and Moses are figments of the imagination? |
The major features of Exodus never happened. For the entire patriarchal and most of the pre-exilic period Yahweh was one of a number of gods. The bloody battles in Exodus, as well as 1st and 2nd Kings were the result of conflicts between the different cults. There was a long period during which the Pentateuch was essentially unknown to the Hebrews. This is particuarly clear in 2 Kings 22:8 through 23:3.
As far as linguistics goes, there are many loan words and cognates between all of the Western Semitic languages. The mythic conventions of Ugarit preceded the Bible and established the basic structure.
ETA: Sorry, I was interupted for a momment.
Some very good books you might find helpful are:
Cross, Frank Moore
1973 "Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel." Boston: Harvard University Press
Dalley, Stephanie
2000 "Myths from Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh, and Others. Revised" Oxford: Oxford University Press
Smith, Mark S.
2002 “The Early History of God" 2nd ed. Grand Rapids: Wm B Eerdmans Publishing
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2003 “The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts” Oxford University Press.
The work by F. M. Cross is probably the most frequently cited text in the field. |
Sorry, I don't need to be convinced the bible isn't an accurate record and also contains material adopted from other cultures.
We were discussing the text of Genesis, what languages it was written in, and why those languages fit into the category
| Quote | An even greater problem is the proper interpretation of texts far older which were written in languages no one living has ever heard spoken.
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I disagree with you that the phonology of biblical Hebrew is so different as to be problematic in the interpretation of Genesis, which is what I understand you to be saying. Are you arguing that there is a word which has been conflated with 'yom' but didn't mean 'day'? Which was divided into 'erev' and 'boker', which did not mean 'evening' and 'morning', but are words conflated over time with those common Hebrew words?
AiG's argument is not turning on whether the fourth river out of Eden is pronounced Prat, Frat, Porat, Perat, Fruit, or Poirot. People who take the bible literally happily admit this is a word from another language, and that the text is only approximating its original sound value. But 'yom' isn't. Arguing that yom was originally pronounced iyahm doesn't touch the issue at hand. "Languages no one living has ever heard spoken" is a fine rhetorical flourish, but not very useful as an argument. |
Genesis 1 - 2:3 was a post exilic add-on to the restored montheistic temple texts. We agree that "yom" in the context of Genesis 1 means literal 24 hour days.
Some how I don't think that you know where the 7 day week was invented, or the theological significance it held outside of the older Hebrew creation myth more or less preserved in Genesis 2-3.
Edited by Dr.GH on Oct. 14 2008,15:10
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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."
L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"
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