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  Topic: Discussing "Explore Evolution", Have at it.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 10 2008,08:56   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ April 08 2008,09:59)
Quote (stevestory @ April 08 2008,00:03)
Paul, you're spending all your time and energy defending bullshit. You know it. We know it. Somewhere, deep down, there's a little voice that says 'Dangit, this YEC stuff just doesn't hang together.' We know that it's been a part of your core beliefs. We know that it's a painful thing to realize. But every day can always be the start of a better life. Just because you fell for it years ago, doesn't mean you have to keep fighting reality now. YEC is bullshit. It's done. That ship has sailed, my friend. You're among the best they're got, and frankly, you look like an idiot. You're choosing to look like an idiot. You don't have to do this. You can cut your losses. There's always time to discard ideas that just didn't work out and do something productive. You might think it's too late, but better late, than never.

Steve, et al.

If you haven't read it yet, I'd recommend a recent article in Science ("Crossing the Divide", Jennifer Couzin, Science 319:1034-36, 22 Feb 2008), documenting the history of a paleontologist raised in a YEC family. In grad school, when he finally was confronted face-to-face with evidence that could not be reconciled with the Fluud, it triggered a personal crisis that seems to still be going on years later. Words like "bitterness, rage and disappointment" can be found throughout the account; his relationships with his parents, wife, siblings etc. have all had to be renegotiated. Another ex-creationist, quoted in the article, discusses his conversation with his mother: "The day that I had to tell my mother I wasn't a YEC was the scariest day of my life".

I think sometimes we forget how those fact-free beliefs, installed in their heads when they were young, become incredibly intertwined with everything else in their lives. Giving up the fact-free beliefs would be easy if that is all that would be required. But in reality it involves giving up a lot more than that, and sometimes at great psychic cost.

It takes a lot of guts to make that break. The intellectual understanding is just the first, and probably the easiest, step. Paul might have the brains to do this, but it would be no surprise to learn that he doesn't (like lots of others) have the guts.

I'd be happy to send a PDF of that article to anyone who can't get past the subscription wall at Science. It is an excellent and informative read.

---ETA that I'm certain this attempt at empathy will be read in some quarters as more "nauseating arrogance". Too bad.

I would love a copy...


afarensis@scienceblogs.com

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2008,12:08   

Another drive-by, with no thanks at all for the work I've done compiling an annotated bibliography for Paul.  Sigh...
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   April 14 2008,11:44

On another note, I was able to get Barbara Forrest to autograph my new paperback copy of "Creationism's Trojan Horse" this weekend, and then started to re-read it (when I first read it, i had a copy from the library). I found that my comments here re the characterization of Paul Chien, DI fellow and toxicologist by training, as a "marine paleobiologist" were actually brought up in that book as well. So Paul probably already knew that this was problematic.

Sigh, again.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,09:38   

Paul has no words for us, apparently. Another drive-by.
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   April 15 2008,09:01


--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,11:40   

I haven't received my review copy, but I still look forward to it.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Paul Nelson



Posts: 43
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,08:25   

Hello all,

I'm back from Brazil, and catching up with stuff.  Thanks to Alb for his hard work on the textbooks and Haeckel business -- much appreciated.  I'm doing my own additional survey using the textbook collection at the Univ. of Chicago science library.  Gary, please let me know when your copy of EE arrives (it's being sent from Seattle), and I apologize for any delays in the shipping.

I have some media appearances to do here in Chicago for Expelled, but after the film opens on Friday, life should quiet down a bit and I can rejoin the EE festival here.

  
Venus Mousetrap



Posts: 201
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,09:10   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 16 2008,08:25)
Hello all,

I'm back from Brazil, and catching up with stuff.  Thanks to Alb for his hard work on the textbooks and Haeckel business -- much appreciated.  I'm doing my own additional survey using the textbook collection at the Univ. of Chicago science library.  Gary, please let me know when your copy of EE arrives (it's being sent from Seattle), and I apologize for any delays in the shipping.

I have some media appearances to do here in Chicago for Expelled, but after the film opens on Friday, life should quiet down a bit and I can rejoin the EE festival here.

Welcome back Paul.

One does rather wonder why you wrote a textbook on the subject that inspired Hitler to kill millions of Jews. ;)

  
Shirley Knott



Posts: 148
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,09:35   

Quote (Venus Mousetrap @ April 16 2008,09:10)
Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 16 2008,08:25)
Hello all,

I'm back from Brazil, and catching up with stuff.  Thanks to Alb for his hard work on the textbooks and Haeckel business -- much appreciated.  I'm doing my own additional survey using the textbook collection at the Univ. of Chicago science library.  Gary, please let me know when your copy of EE arrives (it's being sent from Seattle), and I apologize for any delays in the shipping.

I have some media appearances to do here in Chicago for Expelled, but after the film opens on Friday, life should quiet down a bit and I can rejoin the EE festival here.

Welcome back Paul.

One does rather wonder why you wrote a textbook on the subject that inspired Hitler to kill millions of Jews. ;)

One rather suspects it is because there are some left.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,10:52   

I hope you had a good trip.  The Dengue Fever news from Brazil did not sound good.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,18:34   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 16 2008,08:25)
Thanks to Alb for his hard work on the textbooks and Haeckel business -- much appreciated.  I'm doing my own additional survey using the textbook collection at the Univ. of Chicago science library.

Paul, I don't know how to say this exactly, but most of us do our research BEFORE we publish a book. Then we double and triple-check it for accuracy.

Is this post-publication fact-finding the standard mode of research for the rest of the book as well?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2008,00:02   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 16 2008,08:25)
Hello all,
I'm back from Brazil, and catching up with stuff.  

Oi Paulo, eu não compreendo sua desculpa. Eu visitei Brasil muitas vezes e eu nunca tenho um problema com acesso do Internet, especialmente nas universidades.
Quote
I have some media appearances to do here in Chicago for Expelled, but after the film opens on Friday, life should quiet down a bit and I can rejoin the EE festival here.

Vc considerou fazer alguma ciência real em vez de fingir ensinar a povos algo que vc obviamente não compreende?

Em suas aparências, vc vai ser honesto e admitir que vc concorda com Hitler, que a "descida comum" é errada?

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2008,09:03   

Paul!  How's work on the Errata coming along?  Started Volume 3 yet?

  
hooligans



Posts: 114
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2008,09:48   

Paul,

I know your busy, but I have a few questions for you related to EE that have yet to be addressed. Here they are:
Quote

Posted by hooligans: Mar. 15 2008,22:54
Mr. Nelson,

Would you mind updating us on the following article from Student News Daily. It stated back in August that:
Quote
This fall, the 34-year teaching veteran will restructure his evenhanded presentation around a new textbook from the Seattle-based Discovery Institute. Explore Evolution: The Arguments for and Against Neo-Darwinism (Hill House Publishers, 2007) does not address alternative theories of origins but succinctly lays out the scientific strengths and weaknesses of the most critical elements of Darwinism. "It's made my work a lot easier," Cowan said.
Explore Evolution encapsulates a "teach the controversy" paradigm that the Discovery Institute has advocated for the better part of the past decade. Over that time, the institute has advised school boards against the inclusion of Intelligent Design in their science standards. Some boards have heeded that counsel; others have not.




Hows that little experiment going?  


AND
Quote

Posted by hooligans: Mar. 15 2008,22:54  

Are you going to give him a new set of textbooks for free given all the mistakes in the first edition?  


AND

Mr. Nelson,

I was wondering what you have to say about this issue IN EE I posted back in July:
 
Quote

Posted: July 13 2007,20:40    

EE states that:    
Quote
 

For example, flowering plants appear suddenly in the early Cretaceous period, 145-125 million years ago. This rapid appearance is sometimes called the angiosperm big bloom. “The origin of the angiosperms remains unclear,”  




Ah yes, yet another example of an argument from ignorance. Hmm, too bad for EE progress is being made in understanding this perplexing problem. Check out this article entitled:South Pacific Plant May Be Missing Link in Evolution of Flowering Plants

The problem with EE is that it tries to stimulate controversy where, instead, a teacher should stimulate a thirst to understand what is known and where the gaps in knowledge are. This way students will be able to do research to help find answers.  

Any thoughts?


Thanks for looking into these questions. I'm real curios if you talk about the evolution of flowering plants. Apparently quite a bit of work has been accomplished recently that helps answer this tough question.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5787
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2008,10:29   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ April 16 2008,17:34)
Paul, I don't know how to say this exactly, but most of us do our research BEFORE we publish a book.

Picky picky! :p

  
Henry J



Posts: 5787
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2008,10:31   

Quote (JAM @ April 16 2008,23:02)
Oi Paulo, eu não compreendo sua desculpa. Eu visitei Brasil [...]

Hey, what's with this mixing of Spanish with French?

Oops, wrong thread for that joke. Never mind.  :p

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2008,08:29   

Quote
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--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,11:09   

I guess Paul is too busy with the grand opening of the website for the Biologic Institute (featuring the recently expectorated Sternberg and Marks and Gonzalez, but no research yet), and/or the opening of Expelled to answer our questions here. But at least he could say "Hi" when he visits, don't ya think?    
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   April 22 2008,10:37


--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Paul Nelson



Posts: 43
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,11:25   

Hi, Alb.

Question for JAM, if he's still reading this thread -- does he have (know) any data on size variation in wild canid populations?

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,11:34   

selective hyperskepticism, sadly, evo-mat merits.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,13:20   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 22 2008,11:25)
Hi, Alb.

Question for JAM, if he's still reading this thread -- does he have (know) any data on size variation in wild canid populations?

You have an awful lot of questions piled up here, Paul. Don't you think you could answer some of them, rather than just ask questions of your own and pretend that ours don't exist?

Just a thought...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,16:30   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 22 2008,11:25)
Hi, Alb.

Question for JAM, if he's still reading this thread -- does he have (know) any data on size variation in wild canid populations?

Wazza matter, Paul, don't have Google out there in Creationville?


How's the Errata coming along?  Started Volume 4 yet?

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 23 2008,09:03   

Quote
45 guests, 18 Public Members and 1 Anonymous Members   [ View Complete List ]
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Quote
Hat Trick, by mi.a


Edited by Lou FCD on April 23 2008,10:06

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Paul Nelson



Posts: 43
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 23 2008,10:40   

Alb said,

Quote
Don't you think you could answer some of them, rather than just ask questions of your own and pretend that ours don't exist?


Here's a quick recap.  JAM cited a paper from Science in support of his question to me about the genetic basis of size differences.  The paper concerned variation in dogs.  I read it, thought about it, and wondered about a couple of things:

1.  How do we determine the genetics of size differences for extinct taxa?  The original context of JAM's question involved scaling illustrations of the mammal-like reptile transition.

2.  The variation in canids was in domesticated, not wild, populations.  Hence I wondered if JAM had additional data about size variation in natural populations, because I think there are important (evidentially relevant) differences between domesticated and wild populations, with respect to evolution.

So my question to JAM stems from trying to follow up his question to me.

  
hooligans



Posts: 114
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 23 2008,11:42   

My questions, Paul, should only take a second to answer. Would you mind? I'm curious.

Just look up the board for full questions. To summarize:
1: How is Cowan doing with EE? Are you giving him a new set of texts, given the vast quantity of errors in the 1st edition?

2: Flowering plants. What's up witht the new research that appears to cast doubt on the wording you use in EE regarding their evolution? Will you incorporate some of these ideas? Why or why not?

Thanks

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 23 2008,12:03   

Quote (hooligans @ April 23 2008,11:42)
My questions, Paul, should only take a second to answer. Would you mind? I'm curious.

Just look up the board for full questions. To summarize:
1: How is Cowan doing with EE? Are you giving him a new set of texts, given the vast quantity of errors in the 1st edition?

2: Flowering plants. What's up witht the new research that appears to cast doubt on the wording you use in EE regarding their evolution? Will you incorporate some of these ideas? Why or why not?

Thanks

Yeah, questions like hooligans'. Some of which date back to July...

Or you could even tell us who did the "research" that was used to document the statement in EE about the "many modern textbooks" that still parrot Haeckel, and how they managed to completely miss looking at many modern textbooks?

Or, since you were also researching this topic yourself recently, if any research at all was done prior to the writing and publication of the book?

Or why Chien was still listed in EE as a "marine paleobiologist" when his credentials in that area were shown to be slim-to-none by Forrest and Gross way back in 2004?

I'm sure you have answers to those questions, but I'm also pretty sure we will never see them here.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
raguel



Posts: 107
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 23 2008,13:59   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 23 2008,10:40)
Alb said,

 
Quote
Don't you think you could answer some of them, rather than just ask questions of your own and pretend that ours don't exist?


Here's a quick recap.  JAM cited a paper from Science in support of his question to me about the genetic basis of size differences.  The paper concerned variation in dogs.  I read it, thought about it, and wondered about a couple of things:

1.  How do we determine the genetics of size differences for extinct taxa?  The original context of JAM's question involved scaling illustrations of the mammal-like reptile transition.

2.  The variation in canids was in domesticated, not wild, populations.  Hence I wondered if JAM had additional data about size variation in natural populations, because I think there are important (evidentially relevant) differences between domesticated and wild populations, with respect to evolution.

So my question to JAM stems from trying to follow up his question to me.

Isn't that the sort of research that should have been done before the book was printed?  Before you accused scientists of being dishonest/misleading?

  
raguel



Posts: 107
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 23 2008,14:04   

I forgot to add: is there any chance that EE also discussed about the embryological evidence for the evolution of the ear?

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 24 2008,17:32   

Having just escaped from being one, Paul reminds me of managers dealing with staff. An employee comes up to you with an idea. For what ever reason you don't want to pursue the idea and don't want to say no to the person. You just say for the guy to come up with a full proposal on their own time. When the guy does it say that you need some time to study the proposal or pick up some minor point and send them back for more research (on their own time).
With luck they will get bored.
I think that if anybody thinks that Paul is doing anything other than wasting your time are being scammed. Reading through these pages, he has never said that he would actually do anything with the data.
Behe when faced with reality say's "irrelevant". Paul says "Interesting, could you research it for me and I'll get back to you". Dembski of course calls the National Guard and publishes your kids school's on the web.

  
Leftfield



Posts: 107
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 24 2008,21:37   

Quote (bystander @ April 24 2008,17:32)
Behe when faced with reality say's "irrelevant". Paul says "Interesting, could you research it for me and I'll get back to you". Dembski of course calls the National Guard and publishes your kids school's on the web.

Well, ID is a big tent!

--------------
Speaking for myself, I have long been confused . . .-Denyse O'Leary

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 24 2008,23:56   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 23 2008,10:40)
Alb said,

     
Quote
Don't you think you could answer some of them, rather than just ask questions of your own and pretend that ours don't exist?

Here's a quick recap.

You're not even close. You are a profoundly dishonest man.
 
Quote
JAM cited a paper from Science...

The journal is not important in this context. The data are, but you can't deal with the data.
 
Quote
in support of his question to me about the genetic basis of size differences.

Wrong. I challenged your dishonesty in YOUR BOOK:
 
Quote
Some textbooks alter the scale of pictures showing the order of appearance of group such as the mammal-like reptiles. This makes the features appear closer in size than they really are, and creates the impression of a close genealogical relationship, and an easy transition between different types of animals. Presentations of the reptile-to-mammal sequence, in particular, often enlarge some skulls and shrink others to make them appear more similar in size than they actually are.

I cited the data from the paper to support my claim that changes in size are no big deal evolutionarily. This is blindingly obvious from even a cursory understanding of growth-factor pathways, but that would be too subtle for someone as ignorant and dishonest as you clearly are. Therefore, I used the sledgehammer. Then, I asked a simple question and taunted you. You see, Paul, the hypothesis that you are a dishonest fraud makes very clear predictions about your evasive behavior:
 
Quote
Do you have some data that suggest that size changes are a big deal?

Oh, I forgot--you produce no data, because you're lack sufficient faith to test your hypotheses. Instead, you just spin the data of others.

My question was a simple one placing the evidentiary burden on you, as someone who made a claim in what he sells as a textbook. Clearly, your answer is 'no, I have no data,' but you lack the integrity to admit it.
 
Quote
The paper concerned variation in dogs.

Yes, Paul, but what were the data?
 
Quote
I read it, thought about it, and wondered about a couple of things:

Translation: exposed as a dishonest fraud yet again, Paul, who never looked at evidence, tries to find a way to transfer the burden of proof.
 
Quote
1.  How do we determine the genetics of size differences for extinct taxa?

You would have to have an answer to that BEFORE complaining that disregarding size differences was deceptive, particularly given that size was not used as a characteristic in classification.

The answer is that since we know that the underlying molecular mechanisms are incredibly conserved, it's not a problem.
 
Quote
The original context of JAM's question involved scaling illustrations of the mammal-like reptile transition.

More accurately, the context YOUR book's dishonest claim that using different scales was deceptive, a claim for which you clearly have no support.
 
Quote
2.  The variation in canids was in domesticated, not wild, populations.  Hence I wondered if JAM had additional data about size variation in natural populations,

But you lack the integrity to answer my question.
 
Quote
because I think there are important (evidentially relevant) differences between domesticated and wild populations, with respect to evolution.

Then why didn't you answer my question "Yes," and cite the relevant evidence (not quotes)?
 
Quote
So my question to JAM stems from trying to follow up his question to me.

No, it stems from trying to evade answering it.

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2008,08:00   

Quote
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Hi Paul. So, are you available to take a question or two?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
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