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  Topic: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed., Sternberg, Gonzalez, Crocker - A film< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:02   

Richard,

I recognized it as a meaningless strawman in exactly the way you suggested. I simply wanted to be part of that group--I admired them at that point. I would not have signed a blatantly scientifically incorrect statement, but I succumbed to signing  what I recognized as a between-the-lines political statement. I was, I am embarrassed to admit, flattered to be asked. Mea Culpa. By leaps and bounds it is not the worst thing I have ever done.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:03   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 22 2008,09:54)
Would Jesus sign it?

There's no evidence that Jesus could read English, and if the statement was translated into Aramaic, I doubt the phrases "random mutation" and "natural selection" meant much to anyone at the time.  I don't think he would have put his name to anything he didn't understand, so: No.

As to whether he would have signed a more explicit statement of the subtext ("I believe Daddidit"), who knows?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:08   

Quote (dheddle @ April 22 2008,12:02)
Richard,

I recognized it as a meaningless strawman in exactly the way you suggested. I simply wanted to be part of that group--I admired them at that point. I would not have signed a blatantly scientifically incorrect statement, but I succumbed to signing  what I recognized as a between-the-lines political statement. I was, I am embarrassed to admit, flattered to be asked. Mea Culpa. By leaps and bounds it is not the worst thing I have ever done.

That's okay Dave. I hold you as decent sort and admitting mistakes is a good thing. I mess up on a regular basis myself, so I know the feeling. I can also see how the concept of ID would be exciting in its early stages... "Looking for made by God" would be fun. Unfortunately, they're looking for "not made by not God"...


Do you want a hug?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:20   

Quote (dheddle @ April 22 2008,10:02)
Richard,

I recognized it as a meaningless strawman in exactly the way you suggested. I simply wanted to be part of that group--I admired them at that point. I would not have signed a blatantly scientifically incorrect statement, but I succumbed to signing  what I recognized as a between-the-lines political statement. I was, I am embarrassed to admit, flattered to be asked. Mea Culpa. By leaps and bounds it is not the worst thing I have ever done.



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:21   

Quote

I don't think any biologist has thought that "random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life" for Decades.


Even Darwin was clear in stating that he believed natural selection to be the major, but not only, mechanism of "descent with modification".

Ever since Lewontin et al. discovered rampant protein polymorphism in the 1960s, the "major" assertion has been in trouble. Even Dawkins has stated that when one looks at the level of DNA molecules, most evolution appears to be due to genetic drift (though he is quick to add that at the level of gross morphology, most evolution appears to be due to natural selection).

I've often said that I could sign the text of what the Discovery Institute offers; as David notes, the form of the words is pretty meaningless. It's the agenda that goes with the signing that is problematic. It all goes toward perpetuating a cycle of ignorance.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
charlie d



Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:21   

David:
if you regret having signed the statement, in retrospect, and wish that your name were not associated with it anymore, you can just ask them to take it off.  They have done it for a few other people who did.  

It's not like circumcision, you can take it back (well, there are ways to go back on circumcision, but I don't encourage anyone to find out how they work, and especially look at the gruesome pics).

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:26   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 22 2008,10:08)
Do you want a hug?



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:28   

IT AM BITING THEY'RE, NOT HUGS!!!!111111one  :angry:

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:28   

Quote (charlie d @ April 22 2008,12:21)
David:
if you regret having signed the statement, in retrospect, and wish that your name were not associated with it anymore, you can just ask them to take it off.  They have done it for a few other people who did.  

It's not like circumcision, you can take it back (well, there are ways to go back on circumcision, but I don't encourage anyone to find out how they work, and especially look at the gruesome pics).

I have thought about that and may do it--but I have to fight the "you made your bed now sleep in it" lesson that my father drilled into me. Or, they may decide to drop my name.

Edit: typo

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:31   

Thunderf00t has Why People Laugh at Creationists No. 23 and it's dedicated to our favorite idiot spokesman:


Ben Stein!

How many times have we heard Stein make this idiotic statement:

"Darwinism doesn't explain thermodynamics."

Uh, no, it doesn't, and that's relevant why?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:34   

Quote (dheddle @ April 22 2008,12:28)
Quote (charlie d @ April 22 2008,12:21)
David:
if you regret having signed the statement, in retrospect, and wish that your name were not associated with it anymore, you can just ask them to take it off.  They have done it for a few other people who did.  

It's not like circumcision, you can take it back (well, there are ways to go back on circumcision, but I don't encourage anyone to find out how they work, and especially look at the gruesome pics).

I have thought about that and may do it--but I have to fight the "you made your bed now sleep in it" lesson that my father drilled into me. Or, they may decide to drop my name.

Edit: typo

I don't really agree. That you did sign it is public record. But people can elect to change (hopefully for the better) at any time (or whatever the Calvinist version is.. ;) ) . You're a real scientist doing real science, don't give them the endorsement you've worked so hard for.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:40   

Come on Heddle!  Do it!  It might make a great story too!

"I Escaped The Clutches of The D.I!"
My Saga About My Sin - And My Redemption

Maybe a movie?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:44   

I'm with Rich (in a biblical sense).  Having your name removed is not the same as denying you signed it in the first place.

I see nothing dishonorable or disreputable about having your name removed.  (Assuming of course, that they'll actually remove it.  Integrity is not their strong suit.)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:49   

Quote (J-Dog @ April 22 2008,12:40)
Come on Heddle!  Do it!  It might make a great story too!

"I Escaped The Clutches of The D.I!"
My Saga About My Sin - And My Redemption

Maybe a movie?

I can only say that when I ponder the possibility I am genuinely conflicted. At the same time, I don’t think about it very much. I don’t consider it to be very important. If I ever asked them to remove my name, I would do it quietly, and would only blog about it if they refused. It would be an admission of my mistake, not their mistake, and I wouldn’t use it for blog fodder.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:53   

Quote (dheddle @ April 22 2008,12:49)
Quote (J-Dog @ April 22 2008,12:40)
Come on Heddle!  Do it!  It might make a great story too!

"I Escaped The Clutches of The D.I!"
My Saga About My Sin - And My Redemption

Maybe a movie?

I can only say that when I ponder the possibility I am genuinely conflicted. At the same time, I don’t think about it very much. I don’t consider it to be very important. If I ever asked them to remove my name, I would do it quietly, and would only blog about it if they refused. It would be an admission of my mistake, not their mistake, and I wouldn’t use it for blog fodder.

I don't see what's wrong in making something right...?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,12:57   

Quote (don_quixote @ April 19 2008,04:55)
Quote
From the DI:

This film is going to be a classic and there is nothing the fulminating opposition can do about it.

I always wondered where former Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf (Comical Ali/Baghdad Bob) ended up working.

He's a pundit?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:18   

Expelled didn't quite hit $3 million this weekend. $2,970,848.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=expelled.htm

After fri and sat, it was predicted sun it would make $950,000, but when the actual numbers came in it was only $775,000.

   
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:45   

Quote (CeilingCat @ April 22 2008,06:45)


Even worse, he leaves out the number one cause of murderous anti-semitism, a group that was hating Jews 2000 years ago and which has been slaughtering them in wholesale lots for the last thousand years: Christianity. And not just any old Christians, either.  A few liberal Christians did oppose the Nazis.  Hitler killed about 600 of them.  The Conservative Christians were enthusiastic supporters of the Nazi party.
 
ALL of the top Nazis and all of their minions were Christians.  Hitler only got into power because the Roman Catholic church dismantled the Catholic Zentrum party in return for money and recognition.

See here for the gory details of Hitler and Christianity's role in his rise.

Gregory S. Paul is the phony who claimed that the more religious a country is, the more societal ills it will suffer from, which has been thoroughly debunked.

The Bible does not call for the persecution of Jews. The Roman Catholic Church and Luther, however, did.

Oh, and a Christian would not say the sort of things Hitler said in his table talk.

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
KimvdLinde



Posts: 12
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:46   

Quote (stevestory @ April 22 2008,14:18)
Expelled didn't quite hit $3 million this weekend. $2,970,848.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=expelled.htm

After fri and sat, it was predicted sun it would make $950,000, but when the actual numbers came in it was only $775,000.

Of course, Xristans do not go to the movies at Sunday, the day of the Lord, Jezus Christ, when you should be idle and spend the day contemplating about the sins of the week before......

Oeps, did I type that..... :O

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:47   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ April 22 2008,15:45)
Oh, and a Christian would not say the sort of things Hitler said in his table talk.

You mean like "Gott mit uns"?

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:49   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ April 22 2008,14:45)
Oh, and a Christian would not say the sort of things Hitler said in his table talk.

Whilst I think Hitler was a crappy, well, EVERYTHING, you're playing the 'no true Scotsman' card I think.

There is a biblical tradition of God mandated genocide.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:50   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ April 22 2008,12:45)
Oh, and a Christian would not say the sort of things Hitler said in his table talk.



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:51   

Quote (Lou FCD @ April 22 2008,14:47)
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ April 22 2008,15:45)
Oh, and a Christian would not say the sort of things Hitler said in his table talk.

You mean like "Gott mit uns"?

That only signifies theism. I do not think Hitler was an atheist but neither do I think he was a Christian.

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:51   



Quote
A little revisionist history, by seangraham


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:53   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 22 2008,14:49)
There is a biblical tradition of God mandated genocide.

In the Hebrew Scriptures!

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:56   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ April 22 2008,15:53)
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 22 2008,14:49)
There is a biblical tradition of God mandated genocide.

In the Hebrew Scriptures!

Quote
[1] And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
[3] And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
[4] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
[5] And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
[6] And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
[7] And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
[8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Revelation, chapter 6

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:58   

Quote (Lou FCD @ April 22 2008,14:56)
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ April 22 2008,15:53)
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 22 2008,14:49)
There is a biblical tradition of God mandated genocide.

In the Hebrew Scriptures!

Quote
[1] And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
[3] And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
[4] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
[5] And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
[6] And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
[7] And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
[8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Revelation, chapter 6

I do not see a call to genocide in your citation.

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:58   

Robert, you don't wanna argue scripture with Lou. He went to Bob Jones U.  :O

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,14:59   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ April 22 2008,15:58)
Quote (Lou FCD @ April 22 2008,14:56)
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ April 22 2008,15:53)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 22 2008,14:49)
There is a biblical tradition of God mandated genocide.

In the Hebrew Scriptures!

 
Quote
[1] And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
[3] And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
[4] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
[5] And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
[6] And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
[7] And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
[8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Revelation, chapter 6

I do not see a call to genocide in your citation.

Can you see it better now?

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,15:02   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ April 22 2008,12:53)
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 22 2008,14:49)
There is a biblical tradition of God mandated genocide.

In the Hebrew Scriptures!

So we can throw out Genesis and Leviticus now? Yay!

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
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