RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (58) < ... 43 44 45 46 47 [48] 49 50 51 52 53 ... >   
  Topic: Evolution of the horse; a problem for Darwinism?, For Daniel Smith to present his argument< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 04 2008,11:01   

Quote (mitschlag @ Feb. 02 2008,14:13)
 
Quote
The essence of democracy is that you can lie about who you voted for.  Charles Krauthammer

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Edited to add:   ???

It means he thinks caucuses are undemocratic.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 04 2008,11:35   

Hey Daniel,
Welcome back.


Soooooo....

What now?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
mitschlag



Posts: 236
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 04 2008,15:44   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 04 2008,11:01)
 
Quote (mitschlag @ Feb. 02 2008,14:13)
   
Quote
The essence of democracy is that you can lie about who you voted for.  Charles Krauthammer

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Edited to add:   ???

It means he thinks caucuses are undemocratic.

Thanks.  :)

--------------
"You can establish any “rule” you like if you start with the rule and then interpret the evidence accordingly." - George Gaylord Simpson (1902-1984)

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 04 2008,19:04   

Quote (JAM @ Feb. 01 2008,21:45)
             
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 01 2008,19:08)
...He found nothing that contradicted those patterns.

But plenty of others have found the evidence he claimed didn't exist in the decades since.

JAM,

It didn't take long for me, from the time you first entered this discussion, to lose my respect for you as a human being.  Anyone with common courtesy or decency can read back through and immediately see why.

I still, though, maintained a grudging respect for you as a scientist.

Now that's gone too.

In fact, I'm beginning to have doubts that you really are a scientist.  

Nevertheless, I think I'll go back to ignoring you now.  You obviously have nothing of substance to contribute to this conversation.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 04 2008,19:16   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Feb. 04 2008,09:35)
Hey Daniel,
Welcome back.


Soooooo....

What now?

Good question.  I don't know.  

There's a lot more that can be said about Schindewolf, that's for sure, and we didn't really even get into Berg's Nomogenesis much at all!

But I honestly don't feel that people here are much interested.   I know none of you ran out to buy Schindewolf's or Berg's books!  I guess that's understandable though.  If you're confident in your position, why would you seek evidence against it?

In that light, I think this subject has pretty much exhausted itself.  I'm beginning to tire of this place a little as well.  There's a LOT of negativity here!

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 04 2008,22:29   

Daniel Smith:

Quote

It didn't take long for me, from the time you first entered this discussion, to lose my respect for you as a human being.  Anyone with common courtesy or decency can read back through and immediately see why.


Daniel Smith, the very next comment:

Quote

There's a LOT of negativity here!


Golly.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2008,03:18   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 04 2008,19:16)
But I honestly don't feel that people here are much interested.   I know none of you ran out to buy Schindewolf's or Berg's books!  I guess that's understandable though.  If you're confident in your position, why would you seek evidence against it?

Perhaps it's the same reason that you didn't rush out and buy any contemporary biology textbooks?

I simply don't see how you can criticize the current positions when you don't understand them, as JAM has taken pains to point out. I'm sure you'd agree (sequence data etc) that there are significant gaps in your understanding.

If you are confident in your position then what harm can learning about the other side do?

Don't you think that once you have a full understanding of current positions you can then attempt to criticise them?

Trying to run before you can walk is sheer folly in this forum!

And Daniel, I'm sure that scientists like nothing more then finding evidence that contradicts their position. It simply means that a more accurate description is available and who will argue against progress? Sure, some hold outs may never be convinced, but on the whole progress marches on.

It's people like you, Daniel, that refuse to believe what the evidence is showing. Not the people you have been arguing with.

I know it's hard to believe, but it's true.

If you really want to take on this fight and win, well, go get a degree or two and then try again. FIght them on their own ground.

If you do go that route, well, I'm 99% we will never hear from you again. Why? Well, I'm sure the arguments will convince under strict study. And you'll be turned in no time!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
mitschlag



Posts: 236
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2008,05:10   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 04 2008,19:16)
There's a lot more that can be said about Schindewolf, that's for sure, and we didn't really even get into Berg's Nomogenesis much at all!

But I honestly don't feel that people here are much interested.   I know none of you ran out to buy Schindewolf's or Berg's books!  I guess that's understandable though.  If you're confident in your position, why would you seek evidence against it?

Actually, I bought a copy of Basic Questions and have dipped into it.  What I've seen is a vigorous rejection of selection as a driving force in evolution and the substitution of orthogenesis.

As I've mentioned before, Schindewolf's ideas are of historical interest, but they have not survived the rough and tumble of scientific practice.  Ideas that are not usefully heuristic are doomed.

If Daniel has not read The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, he is missing an opportunity to learn how science has worked through history and how it is likely to continue to work.  It will give him insight into how we operate.  (And it's a lot shorter than Grundfragen.)

--------------
"You can establish any “rule” you like if you start with the rule and then interpret the evidence accordingly." - George Gaylord Simpson (1902-1984)

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2008,10:55   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 04 2008,20:29)
Daniel Smith:

Quote

It didn't take long for me, from the time you first entered this discussion, to lose my respect for you as a human being.  Anyone with common courtesy or decency can read back through and immediately see why.


Daniel Smith, the very next comment:

Quote

There's a LOT of negativity here!


Golly.

"Golly" is right.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2008,11:11   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 05 2008,10:55)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 04 2008,20:29)
Daniel Smith:

 
Quote

It didn't take long for me, from the time you first entered this discussion, to lose my respect for you as a human being.  Anyone with common courtesy or decency can read back through and immediately see why.


Daniel Smith, the very next comment:

 
Quote

There's a LOT of negativity here!


Golly.

"Golly" is right.

Another substance free post consisting of a word or two appended to somebody else's post.

The informational content of your posts here seems to be declining Daniel.

No doubt this is why JAD says "you've won" over at ISCID.

If you like I can go back and find a few unanswered questions for you? There are *plenty* to choose from!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2008,18:00   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Feb. 05 2008,01:18)
     
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 04 2008,19:16)
But I honestly don't feel that people here are much interested.   I know none of you ran out to buy Schindewolf's or Berg's books!  I guess that's understandable though.  If you're confident in your position, why would you seek evidence against it?

Perhaps it's the same reason that you didn't rush out and buy any contemporary biology textbooks?

I simply don't see how you can criticize the current positions when you don't understand them, as JAM has taken pains to point out. I'm sure you'd agree (sequence data etc) that there are significant gaps in your understanding.

If you are confident in your position then what harm can learning about the other side do?

Don't you think that once you have a full understanding of current positions you can then attempt to criticise them?

Trying to run before you can walk is sheer folly in this forum!

And Daniel, I'm sure that scientists like nothing more then finding evidence that contradicts their position. It simply means that a more accurate description is available and who will argue against progress? Sure, some hold outs may never be convinced, but on the whole progress marches on.

It's people like you, Daniel, that refuse to believe what the evidence is showing. Not the people you have been arguing with.

I know it's hard to believe, but it's true.

Old man, old man, old man...
If only you knew whereof you speak.
During my time here I've bought and read (cover to cover) a book on molecular biology and a book on heredity.  Neither were written by creationists or IDists. I've also read every online paper I was referred to and have read several more on my own.  These papers include most of the ENCODE consortium papers, several on the "histone code" and epigenetics, one on human chromosome 2, one on transposable elements of the Drosophila, plus several other papers I don't have in front of me right now and several wikipedia pages on topics discussed here as well.  None of these were written by creationists, and aside from the Denton papers, none were written by ID supporters either.
The most recent paper I've read was written by Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge; entitled "Punctuated equilibrium comes of age".  I read that because Wesley mention punctuated equilibrium and I wanted to know a little more about it.
I've gone a long way towards learning what the evidence is against my positions.
How far have you gone?
     
Quote
If you really want to take on this fight and win, well, go get a degree or two and then try again. FIght them on their own ground.

If you do go that route, well, I'm 99% we will never hear from you again. Why? Well, I'm sure the arguments will convince under strict study. And you'll be turned in no time!

There are plenty of people with degrees who don't believe the currently held theory.
Heck, Gould and Eldredge seem more dead set against "gradualism" than Schindewolf was (though their tone is much more conciliatory than his).  So I sincerely doubt that "getting a degree" will cause me to turn my brain off and fall in line.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Steverino



Posts: 411
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2008,18:09   

No, but it might cause you to turn your brain on!

--------------
- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

   
swbarnes2



Posts: 78
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2008,18:32   

Quote
Neither were written by creationists or IDists. I've also read every online paper I was referred to and have read several more on my own.  These papers include most of the ENCODE consortium papers, several on the "histone code" and epigenetics, one on human chromosome 2, one on transposable elements of the Drosophila, plus several other papers I don't have in front of me right now and several wikipedia pages on topics discussed here as well.  None of these were written by creationists, and aside from the Denton papers, none were written by ID supporters either.
The most recent paper I've read was written by Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge; entitled "Punctuated equilibrium comes of age".  I read that because Wesley mention punctuated equilibrium and I wanted to know a little more about it.

One could pick apart the ridiculousness of your post piece by piece, but I think a few overall points are more wirth making.

First, by managing to fit all your new-found expertice into one paragraph, you just highlight the fact that the posters who refute you have learned a  hell of a lot more than you have.  You're "I've read two! books, and a few papers all the way through" is laughable compared to the time and effort spent by the professional biologists who post on these boards.

And do you woner why they don't bother touting themselves as you have to?

It's because when you really are knowledgable, it comes through in the content of one's posts.  They don't have to list their publications, their schooling, the papers and boosk they've read, because anyone can see that their posts contain accurate facts which belie their good knowledge and understanding.

Likewise, your posts belie the fact that you have no facts to support you, only 50 year old quotes, paper abstracts that you desperately quote without understanding, and things that you make up.

Why you would want to draw attention to this glaring fact with your lame excuses for study is beyond me.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2008,19:53   

swbarnes2:

Surely you are aware that true knowledge comes from name-dropping?  And that true understanding comes from reading complicated source material without a comprehension of the basics?  That's Creationism 101.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Mark Iosim



Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2008,23:24   

I am back to this lovely discussion forum to report the results of my homework regarding Genetic Algorithm (GA). A few weeks ago I asked to refer me the statistical analysis demonstrating that random mutations are sufficient to cause adaptive changes in biological systems. Respond came from oldmanintheskydidntdoit who suggested to start with
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/.
In my following skeptical assessment of “Weasel program” I stated that it cannot be a model for a Natural selection, but for an artificial selection only. Later in Wikipedia (“Weasel program”) I found the same assessment made by Dawkins
“…Shakespeare model is useful for explaining the distinction between single-step selection and cumulative selection, it is misleading in important ways. One of these is that, in each generation of selective 'breeding', the mutant 'progeny' phrases were judged according to the criterion of resemblance to a distant ideal target…”.
I agree with Dawkins’ assestment of “Weasel program”, but I would defend the role of “distant ideal target” in the natural evolution process. I will return to this point later in this post.

Responding to my skeptical assessment I was told that the “weasel program” is just a tutorial example that demonstrates a difference between random changes and accumulative selection, but to understand mechanism of RM+NS I should make myself more familiar with Genetic Algorithm (GA). I followed this advice and spent some time learning about GA. Below is a couple definitions that in my opinion accurately define GA:

[qoute]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm
“A genetic algorithm (GA) is a search technique used in computing to find exact or approximate solutions to optimization and search problems.
…GAs cannot effectively solve problems in which the only fitness measure is RIGHT/WRONG, as there is no way to converge on the solution. (No hill to climb.) In these cases, a random search may find a solution as quickly as a GA.”

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/genalg/genalg.html#
… a genetic algorithm (or GA for short) is a programming technique that mimics biological evolution as a problem-solving strategy. Given a specific problem to solve, the input to the GA is a SET OF POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS to that problem, encoded in some fashion…[/qoute]
By reading and thinking about GA over two weeks I think I got enough basic understanding to appreciate a power and limitation of GA to respond to the following challenges addressed to me in the past:

swbarnes2    
Quote
How is this is a problem (threshold of usefulness) for a GA?  Enough random starts and you will pass any threshold you like.

By “threshold of usefulness” I mean a minimum performance of evolved “digital organism” that is recognized by the fitness function as a potential solution. The small mutation in the evolving “digital organism” into direction to solution need to be detected and promoted by Fitness Function, otherwise prohibited amount of simultaneous mutation must occur in order to produce a “jump” to a better solution.
If this explanation still doesn’t make sense to you try this:    
Quote

http://www.inf.ed.ac.uk/publications/thesis/online/IM050329.pdf
“… What we do not always take into account, however, is whether evolution
can provide a logical means of finding that peak (solution) through the gradual process required by an EA. If there is no “incentive” to evolve through the earlier stages required, as in the case of 2% of a wing, our evolution will get nowhere.

swbarnes2    
Quote
The hard fact is that GA's have and do succeed in solving problems that humans don't know the answers too.

GA succeeds in solving problems the same way as hand held calculator does. They are both just a tools in our hands. You probably don't know the answers for x = 23.7E20, but a calculator “does”.

oldmanintheskydidntdoit    
Quote

“What do you make of
http://ic.arc.nasa.gov/projects/esg/research/antenna.htm
The fitness function used to evaluate antennas is a function of the voltage standing wave ratio (VSWR) and gain values on the transmit and receive frequencies. VSWR is a way to quantify reflected-wave interference, and thus the amount of impedance mismatch at the junction. VSWR is the ratio between the highest voltage and the lowest voltage in the signal envelope along a transmission line.

The two best antennas found, one (ST5-3-10) from a GA that allowed branching and one (ST5-4W-03) from a GA that did not, were fabricated and tested. Antenna ST5-3-10 is a requirements-compliant antenna that was built and tested on an antenna test range. While it is slightly difficult to manufacture without the aid of automated wire-forming and soldering machines, it has a number of benefits as compared to the conventionally-designed antenna.

This is a typical application for GA, as an optimization TOOL by which potential solutions (changing geometry of wires) were RECOGNIZED as less or more effective by fitness function. Following landscape of more effective solutions the program eventually determines one of the optimum geometry of wire antenna.
See a visual illustration for a similar process:
http://www.obitko.com/tutorials/genetic-algorithms/search-space.php
Wesley R. Elsberry    
Quote

Artificial life systems, such as Avida, can be configured such that the digital organisms contain -- and make modifiable -- the code that performs the self-replication process, making them an instance of evolution, not a simulation of evolution. Given an ancestral digital organism capable of reproduction and nothing else, Avida provides an experimental platform to do precisely what last page's rant said was the issue: examine the process of adaptive change by means of selection. And they do adapt.

Wesley provided me with the link to the article “The Evolutionary Origin of Complex Features” published in NATURE in 2003. This topic also featured in the Discovery (and probably other) magazine. It took for me a while to understand what this work about, but eventually I learned a few important things I would like to share with the rest of the folks.
   
Quote
http://myxo.css.msu.edu/lenski/pdf/2003,%20Nature,%20Lenski%20et%20al.pdf
Abstract
A long-standing challenge to evolutionary theory has been whether it can explain the origin of complex organismal features. We examined this issue using digital organisms—computer programs that self-replicate, mutate, compete and evolve. …These findings show how complex functions can originate by random mutation and natural selection.

It is indeed a long-standing challenge to evolutionary theory, what Behe refers as Irreducible Complexity. My first impression was that this article addressed and solved this challenge using rigorous scientific method, but it was a wrong impression. Instead the article is flooded with phenomenological details that in my opinion do not help to justify its title.

By using digital organisms of Avida program, the authors traced the genealogy from an ancestor that could replicate only to descendants able to perform multiple logic functions requiring the coordinated execution of many genomic instructions. To demonstrate that complex systems evolve from simpler precursors authors set up small rewards for simpler operations and bigger rewards for more complex ones and this way provide an “incentive” to evolve through the gradual process. However when the researchers took away rewards for simpler operations, “digital organisms” never found a final solution. However to come to this conclusion we do not need the sophistication of artificial intelligence”, because the “Weasel program” demonstrates the same result: if the small improvements in the “Hamlet line” would not be rewarded the final line from Hamlet never evolve.

Conclusion of this article:  
Quote
Our experiments demonstrate the validity of the hypothesis, first articulated by Darwin and supported today by comparative and experimental evidences that complex features generally evolve by modifying existing structures and functions. Some readers might suggest that we ‘stacked the deck’ by studying the evolution of
a complex feature that could be built on simpler functions that were also useful. However, that is precisely what evolutionary theory requires, and indeed, our experiments showed that the complex feature never evolved when simpler functions were not rewarded.

How does this conclusion addresses the biggest challenge of Darwinism – the phenomenon of Irreducible Complexity, by which a “simpler function” is useless? Apparently this article ignores not Irreducible Complexity only, but any analysis of complexity at all. This article, pretending to explane the emergence of complexity from simplicity, avoids defining which of the dozens different and often mutually exclusive definitions of complexity authors have in mind. This is very unusual, especially for scientists from Department of Computer Science and Department of Philosophy where scientific concept of Complexity is the “bread and butter.
The conclusion is also a classical example for the circular logic between RC+NS incorporated into Avida program that bechave like RC+NS and this way this proves the validity of RC+NS.

Another pearl from Discovery magazine:      
Quote
http://discovermagazine.com/2005....t:int=1
“…When the Avida team published their first results on the evolution of complexity in 2003, they were inundated with e-mails from creationists. Their work hit a nerve in the antievolution movement and hit it hard. A popular claim of creationists is that life shows signs of intelligent design, especially in its complexity. They argue that complex things could have never evolved, because they don’t work unless all their parts are in place. But as Adami points out, if creationists were right, then Avida wouldn’t be able to produce complex digital organisms. … “What we show is that there are irreducibly complex things and they can evolve, says Adami…

Holly Molly!!! So the article in Nature indeed addressed and solved the problem of Irreducible Complexity, I just missed it. Try to read this article for you self and may be you will be more successful reconciling the mutually exclusive statements from Nature and Discovery.  

I have been wondering if Neo-Darwinism is theory, hypothesis, paradigm or religion. But this article makes me think that Darwinism is an ideology of Darwinian political party. I am not ID supporter, but after comparing the statements from Nature and Discovery,  
I want to join an opposition party to expose the foolishness, blindness and dishonesty of some “Darwinians”. Unfortunately ID party wouldn’t tolerate me either. If anybody knows about existence of Independent party in Evolution Biology, please let me know.

After being disillusioned with the sophisticated GA, I came back to “Weasel program” that in my opinion is not a tutorial example, but one of the simplest and the most transparent tool that could demonstrate the power of accumulative selection and limitation of random mutation as good as any of its more sophisticated GA cousins. The “Weasel program” was criticized by ID supporters (and this critic was accepted by Dawkins) because of the “final target sequence chosen in advance” (the exact line from Hamlet) is seen as a weakness because it could be interpreted in favor to ID. I think that the “target sequence” isn’t a weakness of this model, but one of the “incarnations” of the real fitness function. The phenomenon of mimicry or camouflage could be an example of living system that matches the target “existing in advance”. The complexity of the “natural targets” is often exceeding the complexity of “line from Hamlet”. The evolution driven by “warfare” with other organisms presents example of this sophisticated “fitness function”. I am defending the practical usefulness of the “Weasel program” and against tutorial example only, because I plan to put it to work helping me solve one problem.

The gradual, step-by-step changes are the most important concepts without each Darwinism wouldn’t be able to explain evolution. The main argument of Behe against gradualism is that it is impossible to define existence of the “appropriate fitness function” that would provide gradual evolution of the so called “Irreducible complex” systems. Dawkins’s counterargument is that regardless that we can’t reproduce these conditions now, it doesn’t mean they couldn’t exist millions or billions years ago. Dawkins expects that sooner or later the “appropriate fitness function” will be found and he has tried to demonstrate that this is not an impossible proposition.

I don’t share Dawkins’ optimism, but I wouldn’t waste time attempting to prove the nonexistence of these conditions billions years ago. How one can prove a non-existence of any thing at all, including the non-existence of God? We may prove a non-existence only in the absolutely defined area of knowledge. For example I may prove to my self the non-existence of a wallet in my empty packet, but only after thorough searching it and even then I may have some reservations.

Therefore I wish Dr. Dawkins a lot of lock in the reproducing of what may happen on Earth million a million years ago, but until these evidences are not discovered, the Neo-Darwinism, in its current form, do not deserve to be called Theory, but a controversial Hypothesis instead.

While evolutionists are working hard stretching their imagination about what may happen millions years ago, I would like to try a different approach by looking in what is happening now, before our eyes. The “Weasel program” (or any other GA tool) that already helped us to rule out the single step selection as unrealistic scenario and shown that an accumulative multi-step model is a much promised one, could help us again. I would like to use “Weasel program” to evaluate RM+NS mechanism in the development of drug resistance in bacteria. For example, in the process of developing drug resistance the particular segment of bacteria’s’ (or virus’) DNA mutates from form A to form B during N generation per mutation rate X etc. Using “Weasel program” (by replacing letters with nucleotides) we can modeling the DNA evolution from form A to form B and see if the model able to reproduce a “target line of nucleotides” within reasonable time frame. I expected to find plenty of published experiments that spell out the changes in bacteria (virus) DNA segment during drug resistance development. However I am having problem to locate these publications. Can anybody help me in this search?

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,03:10   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 05 2008,18:00)
There are plenty of people with degrees who don't believe the currently held theory.

Name them then.

Note, only degrees in relevant fields count.

I'll expect the list never then.

Will "plenty" turn out to be

a) JAD
b) People who have legitimate problems with neo-darwinism but nonetheless do not support your position but you think you can use them to prop up your position?

?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,03:16   

Quote (Mark Iosim @ Feb. 05 2008,23:24)
This is a typical application for GA, as an optimization TOOL by which potential solutions (changing geometry of wires) were RECOGNIZED as less or more effective by fitness function. Following landscape of more effective solutions the program eventually determines one of the optimum geometry of wire antenna.

Yes. That's right.

And your point is what, exactly?

You've shown that this TOOL can find solutions not usually available via standard design methods.

And so you've proven the point you were presumably trying to disprove. Is your problem that there is a "target" (optimum signal reception)?

When you say
Quote
I would like to use “Weasel program” to evaluate RM+NS mechanism in the development of drug resistance in bacteria.

It simply means you've learnt nothing from your period of study.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
mitschlag



Posts: 236
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,04:51   

Daniel Smith, why have the ideas of Schindewolf, Berg, Goldschmidt, and Davison failed to gain scientific traction and have become footnotes in the history of biological thought?

My answer: They have not generated fruitful, testable hypotheses.

Your answer: ?

--------------
"You can establish any “rule” you like if you start with the rule and then interpret the evidence accordingly." - George Gaylord Simpson (1902-1984)

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,11:30   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 04 2008,19:04)
 
Quote (JAM @ Feb. 01 2008,21:45)
                 
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 01 2008,19:08)
...He found nothing that contradicted those patterns.

But plenty of others have found the evidence he claimed didn't exist in the decades since.

JAM,

It didn't take long for me, from the time you first entered this discussion, to lose my respect for you as a human being.

Why? Because by making you look at the sequence evidence, your initial proclamation of interest in evidence was shown to be a bald-faced lie?

Look above. I'm arguing evidence, you're ignoring evidence and going for the ad hominem attack.

How many times do you have to hear "opinions aren't evidence" before this essential distinction gets through your head?

Do you realize that a real scientist (or anyone else interested in actual evidence) looks at the tables and figures long before she/he consults the text?

Quote
Anyone with common courtesy or decency can read back through and immediately see why.

I don't see why. I see us calling you on your initial lies:
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Sep. 22 2007,04:48)
My main problem is that I want to see unbiased and unadulterated evidence; not evidence that is made-to-fit the observers viewpoint....I decided what I needed was just to see the evidence for myself.

You're scared to death of actual evidence.
Quote
I still, though, maintained a grudging respect for you as a scientist.

Why, given your utter contempt for the scientific method?
Quote
In fact, I'm beginning to have doubts that you really are a scientist.

Cool. How many $K do you wanna bet? 
Quote
Nevertheless, I think I'll go back to ignoring you now.  You obviously have nothing of substance to contribute to this conversation.

Evidence is the substance of science, not opinion. Thanks for demonstrating again that you were lying when you claimed to be interested in evidence.

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,13:48   

Quote (mitschlag @ Feb. 06 2008,02:51)
Daniel Smith, why have the ideas of Schindewolf, Berg, Goldschmidt, and Davison failed to gain scientific traction and have become footnotes in the history of biological thought?

My answer: They have not generated fruitful, testable hypotheses.

Your answer: ?

I think it's because their proposed mechanisms are saltational - and that seems to be a dirty word in scientific circles.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,13:54   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 06 2008,13:48)
Quote (mitschlag @ Feb. 06 2008,02:51)
Daniel Smith, why have the ideas of Schindewolf, Berg, Goldschmidt, and Davison failed to gain scientific traction and have become footnotes in the history of biological thought?

My answer: They have not generated fruitful, testable hypotheses.

Your answer: ?

I think it's because their proposed mechanisms are saltational - and that seems to be a dirty word in scientific circles.

So you think it's a conspiracy?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,13:54   

Quote (swbarnes2 @ Feb. 05 2008,16:32)
 
Quote
Neither were written by creationists or IDists. I've also read every online paper I was referred to and have read several more on my own.  These papers include most of the ENCODE consortium papers, several on the "histone code" and epigenetics, one on human chromosome 2, one on transposable elements of the Drosophila, plus several other papers I don't have in front of me right now and several wikipedia pages on topics discussed here as well.  None of these were written by creationists, and aside from the Denton papers, none were written by ID supporters either.
The most recent paper I've read was written by Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge; entitled "Punctuated equilibrium comes of age".  I read that because Wesley mention punctuated equilibrium and I wanted to know a little more about it.

One could pick apart the ridiculousness of your post piece by piece, but I think a few overall points are more wirth making.

First, by managing to fit all your new-found expertice into one paragraph, you just highlight the fact that the posters who refute you have learned a  hell of a lot more than you have.  You're "I've read two! books, and a few papers all the way through" is laughable compared to the time and effort spent by the professional biologists who post on these boards.

And do you woner why they don't bother touting themselves as you have to?

It's because when you really are knowledgable, it comes through in the content of one's posts.  They don't have to list their publications, their schooling, the papers and boosk they've read, because anyone can see that their posts contain accurate facts which belie their good knowledge and understanding.

Likewise, your posts belie the fact that you have no facts to support you, only 50 year old quotes, paper abstracts that you desperately quote without understanding, and things that you make up.

Why you would want to draw attention to this glaring fact with your lame excuses for study is beyond me.

My post was never meant to be a defense of my level of knowledge.  It was a defense of my level of effort in learning about ideas that don't jibe with my current views.  It was in the context of comparison with the amount of effort spent by others on this board in learning more about Schindewolf and Berg.  That's all it was.  Your post is a strawman.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,13:58   

Quote (JAM @ Feb. 06 2008,09:30)
Evidence is the substance of science, not opinion. Thanks for demonstrating again that you were lying when you claimed to be interested in evidence.

Where, specifically, is the evidence [you thought was] in that paper [you never read] that [supposedly] destroys Schindewolf's theory?

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
mitschlag



Posts: 236
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,14:00   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 06 2008,13:48)
     
Quote (mitschlag @ Feb. 06 2008,02:51)
Daniel Smith, why have the ideas of Schindewolf, Berg, Goldschmidt, and Davison failed to gain scientific traction and have become footnotes in the history of biological thought?

My answer: They have not generated fruitful, testable hypotheses.

Your answer: ?

I think it's because their proposed mechanisms are saltational - and that seems to be a dirty word in scientific circles.

Thank you for responding, Daniel, but you didn't really answer, did you?

So, we'll work with what we've got:  Why do you think that "saltational" is a "dirty word" in scientific circles?

Could it be the case that saltational theories of evolution are neither fruitful nor testable?

You realize, don't you, that if a scientific idea is fruitful and testable, its attraction to scientists is irresistible?

--------------
"You can establish any “rule” you like if you start with the rule and then interpret the evidence accordingly." - George Gaylord Simpson (1902-1984)

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,14:03   

Quote (blipey @ Feb. 06 2008,11:54)
 
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 06 2008,13:48)
 
Quote (mitschlag @ Feb. 06 2008,02:51)
Daniel Smith, why have the ideas of Schindewolf, Berg, Goldschmidt, and Davison failed to gain scientific traction and have become footnotes in the history of biological thought?

My answer: They have not generated fruitful, testable hypotheses.

Your answer: ?

I think it's because their proposed mechanisms are saltational - and that seems to be a dirty word in scientific circles.

So you think it's a conspiracy?

No, I think that people are afraid of being ridiculed for wanting to test a saltational theory - so they dismiss it out of hand.  I base this on the great lengths Gould and Eldredge went to in order to show that their theory was not saltational.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
mitschlag



Posts: 236
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,14:22   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 06 2008,14:03)
 
Quote (blipey @ Feb. 06 2008,11:54)
     
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 06 2008,13:48)
     
Quote (mitschlag @ Feb. 06 2008,02:51)
Daniel Smith, why have the ideas of Schindewolf, Berg, Goldschmidt, and Davison failed to gain scientific traction and have become footnotes in the history of biological thought?

My answer: They have not generated fruitful, testable hypotheses.

Your answer: ?

I think it's because their proposed mechanisms are saltational - and that seems to be a dirty word in scientific circles.

So you think it's a conspiracy?

No, I think that people are afraid of being ridiculed for wanting to test a saltational theory - so they dismiss it out of hand.  I base this on the great lengths Gould and Eldredge went to in order to show that their theory was not saltational.

Here's how it actually works, Daniel:

In the privacy of his/her own laboratory, the scientist can test a saltational hypothesis to his/her heart's content.  And if the tests advance understanding, the scientist can tell the world about it. The scientific literature is full of examples of papers that made extravagant claims, challenging the prevailing wisdom. In some cases, these claims were not confirmed by subsequent work or were otherwise refuted.  In other cases, the findings were seminal and earned the publishing scientists great renown.

A smart person who knows he's on to something does not fear ridicule.  And that's what separates the women from the girls.

--------------
"You can establish any “rule” you like if you start with the rule and then interpret the evidence accordingly." - George Gaylord Simpson (1902-1984)

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,14:28   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 06 2008,14:03)
Quote (blipey @ Feb. 06 2008,11:54)
   
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 06 2008,13:48)
   
Quote (mitschlag @ Feb. 06 2008,02:51)
Daniel Smith, why have the ideas of Schindewolf, Berg, Goldschmidt, and Davison failed to gain scientific traction and have become footnotes in the history of biological thought?

My answer: They have not generated fruitful, testable hypotheses.

Your answer: ?

I think it's because their proposed mechanisms are saltational - and that seems to be a dirty word in scientific circles.

So you think it's a conspiracy?

No, I think that people are afraid of being ridiculed for wanting to test a saltational theory - so they dismiss it out of hand.  I base this on the great lengths Gould and Eldredge went to in order to show that their theory was not saltational.

So, it's not a conspiracy.  ID researchers are just cowardly?

edit: damn typos

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,14:58   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 06 2008,14:03)
No, I think that people are afraid of being ridiculed for wanting to test a saltational theory - so they dismiss it out of hand.

And you think that applies to every single scientist in every country in the world?

OK.

So, Wikipedia notes  :p
 
Quote
In biology, saltation (from Latin, saltus, "leap") is a sudden change from one generation to the next, that is large, or very large, in comparison with the usual variation of an organism. The term is used for occasionally hypothesized, nongradual changes (especially single-step speciation) that are atypical of, or violate, standard concepts involved in neo-Darwinian evolution. The unorthodox emphasis on saltation as a means of evolutionary change is called saltationism.

Saltation defies the orthodoxy of evolutionary theory, but there are some prominent proponents, including Carl Woese. Polyploidy (most common in plants but not unknown in animals) can be seen as a type of saltation. Polyploidy meets the basic criterea of saltation in that a significant change (in gene numbers) results in speciation in just one generation.

And as you appear to have a stake in this matter I'd be interested in your option, Daniel, as to how this saltational theory you are promoting can be tested?

Speculate away. Educate me. I'm genuinely interested.

And Daniel, earlier you said
 
Quote
I've gone a long way towards learning what the evidence is against my positions.

Remind me, did you ever post the evidence for your positions?
And does it not worry you that you reached your conclusions (and have stuck to them it appears) without considering this new evidence against your position? Have you changed your mind about nothing? I mean, perhaps you should now start over again now that you have a balanced view?

You might come to a different conclusion?

And anyway, any new idea worth it's salt survives the "ridicule" stage if it has any worth. Usually. You can't lock an idea away once it's been released!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,16:27   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 06 2008,13:58)
 
Quote (JAM @ Feb. 06 2008,09:30)
Evidence is the substance of science, not opinion. Thanks for demonstrating again that you were lying when you claimed to be interested in evidence.

Where, specifically, is the evidence...

In the figures and tables, Dan.

Why did you search for "Schindewolf" in the text instead of looking at the evidence presented in those papers?
Quote
[you thought was] in that paper [you never read]

There were three papers, remember? You got caught lying when you claimed that two of them were "dead links," when I provided citations, not links.
Quote
... that [supposedly] destroys Schindewolf's theory?

Wow. Your mendacity is astounding. I was very, very specific about what these papers showed:
Quote (JAM @ Jan. 24 2008,11:10)
Schindewolf's gaps have been filled, falsifying his hypothesis, even for his speciality, ammonites.

Dan, can you ever muster sufficient integrity to simply portray your opponents' positions accurately?

Aren't you bearing false witness every time you misrepresent anyone's position?

How can anyone claiming to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (who said nothing about evolution, but a lot about the evils of hypocrisy) do what you do with impunity?

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,16:32   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 06 2008,13:54)
My post was never meant to be a defense of my level of knowledge.  It was a defense of my level of effort in learning about ideas that don't jibe with my current views.

Ah, but on your arrival here, you claimed to be interested in EVIDENCE. That was a lie. You have frantically evaded the consideration of evidence in favor of quoting opinions. That's pseudoscience in a nutshell.
Quote
It was in the context of comparison with the amount of effort spent by others on this board in learning more about Schindewolf and Berg.

Why should we learn more about PEOPLE'S OPINIONS when you claimed to be interested in EVIDENCE?

Why weren't you interested in the evidence that's been acquired since Schindewolf offered his hypothesis, which depends utterly on the veracity of his assumption that gaps would not be filled?

  
  1733 replies since Sep. 18 2007,15:27 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (58) < ... 43 44 45 46 47 [48] 49 50 51 52 53 ... >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]