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  Topic: FTK Research Thread, let's clear this up once and for all< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Mike PSS



Posts: 428
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,13:33   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 25 2007,14:17)
I've just checked, and there is indeed room in the PM folder for incoming messages.

Suuuuuurrrrrrreeeee you "just" checked.

Oooooops.  I just got Blipey mad at me.

Or is this comment along the lines of...

"I must have money left in my account because I still have blank checks."

  
stephenWells



Posts: 127
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,13:57   

Quote (Ftk @ June 24 2007,19:58)
Quote (Ichthyic @ June 24 2007,19:52)

 
Quote
didn't you JUST get done telling us you didn't think there was any conspiracy involved?


I didn't say anything about a conspiracy.  I'm merely stating that scientists certainly wouldn't publish something that they feel goes completely and utterly against the grain.  Why would they?  Minds are set irregardless of the questions plaguing the theory.  The alternative would be to actually consider creation and ID theories seriously, and obviously guys like you are not going to be open to that.

Yeah, you remember when Prusiner claimed that infectious proteins could produce diseases without any genetic component, completely against all the expectations of medicine and biology, and he was laughed at and blackballed and never allowed to publish anything?

Oh wait, that didn't happen, he got the Nobel Prize for discovering prions.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,14:35   

Quote

Or is this comment along the lines of...

"I must have money left in my account because I still have blank checks."


You mean...

that's not how it works? ? ?

:O

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,14:41   

Quote
I’ll tell ya one thing....it would be one heck of a lot easier to come up with an explanation for the Noah scenario that to believe that a freakin’ blob is responsible for everything we observe in nature today.


You really believe it's one or the other, don't you?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,15:17   

Quote (Mike PSS @ June 25 2007,13:33)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 25 2007,14:17)
I've just checked, and there is indeed room in the PM folder for incoming messages.

Suuuuuurrrrrrreeeee you "just" checked.

Oooooops.  I just got Blipey mad at me.

Or is this comment along the lines of...

"I must have money left in my account because I still have blank checks."

Nicely done, sir.  :D

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Mike PSS



Posts: 428
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,15:45   

Quote (blipey @ June 25 2007,16:17)
Quote (Mike PSS @ June 25 2007,13:33)
 
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 25 2007,14:17)
I've just checked, and there is indeed room in the PM folder for incoming messages.

Suuuuuurrrrrrreeeee you "just" checked.

Oooooops.  I just got Blipey mad at me.

Or is this comment along the lines of...

"I must have money left in my account because I still have blank checks."

Nicely done, sir.  :D

Hahahaha.
I couldn't resist.

So much for streamlining.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,16:37   

Quote
And, please don’t think for even one second that I haven’t considered all of these issues before.


Indeed, I had rather been making the point that you had done this endless times, perhaps on daily basis.

However, you never intended, nor intend, to actually consider an actual bit of scientific evidence when you "consider these issues". Your mind prefers to cherrypick concepts that agree with your internal rationalizations.

nothing more.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,17:27   

Quote (Ftk @ June 25 2007,00:55)
Or, on second thought, maybe your examples suck and providing further information will make that even more obvious.

Well, a five-minute Google search would settle that, wouldn't it.

Are you (1) too lazy or (2) too stupid  to do that.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,17:32   

Quote (Ftk @ June 25 2007,08:24)
It is irritating as well that he seems to condone behavior like that displayed by Lenny Flank.  As a major contributor to a science forum, it would seem that he would try to keep guys like Flank at bay.  

(sniffle) (sob)  Boo hoo hoo.  Wassamatter, FTK --- can't find your Banninator Button?  Gonna stomp out and leave all in a huff --- again?

Bye.  (shrug)

How do you carry that massive martyr complex around with you, FTK?  With a wheelbarrow?

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,17:41   

Lenny Flank:

Quote

Well, a five-minute Google search would settle that, wouldn't it.


Or a pair of five-second click-throughs on the provided links.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,18:37   

I think that, for the benefit of the lurkers again, I should mention that science is not endlessly open to every idea that has ever been hatched. In complete ignorance, one may not know which of an infinite number of propositions actually describes the universe we experience. But that experience starts cutting out swaths of counter-factual assertions. For example, any claim that requires that "humans use a methane metabolism" is just wrong, and it is easy to see that any assertion that we must be "open" to the possibility that the claim is true is not just mistaken, but wrong-headed. Science famously cannot go directly to a claim that some concept is true, but it can decide, with the same confidence we hold in the observations that provide the pertinent evidence, that some concept is false. Without this characteristic of science, we would forever be arguing over whether phlogiston or thermodynamics was the better explanation, when we know now that phlogiston is wrong and will not be making a comeback.

Intelligent design creationism advocates are famous for offering new definitions of science, definitions that are carefully constructed to permit and protect theistic explanations within science. The permitting occurs by phrasing that science is comprised of logical explanations of natural phenomena, while dumping any reference to the need for those explanations to be testable in light of the evidence.

The protecting gets less attention, but it is related to how this comment started off. That occurs by having the new definitions of science dismiss any idea that science can actually decide any issue. That's right, the practice of science, under the new definition, doesn't actually change the state of our knowledge. Everything that was a proposition worthy of consideration yesterday is still just that way today, and will continue to be so forever. In this bizarro world, scientists can hold opinions about which explanations they prefer, but in the end these are merely alternative interpretations of observations, none of them privileged in any way over any other.

Of course, this benevolent attitude toward hopeless nonsense only lasts so long as it is a preferred piece of hopeless nonsense being considered. And therein lies the brilliance of Bobby Henderson's "Flying Spaghetti Monster" meme, whereby the utter hypocrisy of the Kansas State Board of Education was laid bare for the world to see. By asking Kansas to give equal time and deference to Flying Spaghetti Monsterism in Kansas classrooms, Henderson gave the world the chance to see various conservative antievolution board members go through a variety of histrionics where they sought to exclude Henderson's idea as "silly" while insisting that science had no right to proclaim judgment on their own notions. One member asked that a teacher's display of a Flying Spaghetti Monster drawing be removed from a classroom door;  the administration backed the teacher, and the drawing stayed in place.

To sum up, the scientific attitude is that we can actually learn things through experience that cause us to prefer explanations that are consistent with the evidence and (here's the part antievolutionists hate) treat the explanations that are contradicted by the evidence as wrong, not merely out of favor or a matter of personal interpretation. Consider it another way in which you can identify the next morph of antievolution; they have to try to gut science in order to make science safe for their untestable, unaccountable, and narrow sectarian views.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,18:39   

Quote
For example, any claim that requires that "humans use a methane metabolism" is just wrong,


Indeed.  Mel Brooks tested that theory in his documentary film: Blazing Saddles.

http://www.jibjab.com/view/74595

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,18:45   

Quote
treat the explanations that are contradicted by the evidence as wrong,


'not even wrong', wrt to creationism and ID.

They're actually useless when we consider them from either an explanatory or predictive standpoint.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,18:54   

Now that was as good a comment to this thread as can be done, Wes.

Very nice, but as you said, it is for the lurkers.  I give it exactly zero chance that Ftk will even address one sentence of it.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,19:23   

Yes, Wesley: very well said indeed.

Perhaps FtK does serve some sort of useful purpose, beyond her status as an object of humor and edification of the lurksters...

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,20:32   

[delurking]

Arden Chatfield's opening post:
Quote
Now, I've asked FTK more times than I can remember now just what ferkakte peer-reviewed papers she's read and I've been ignored every time. Not even an "oh shut up Arden", or an "I don't have to tell you anything!" or even an "I already told you!" Deafening silence.

So, I figured if this question gets its own thread, with no other distracting questions, it SHOULD be easier to get an answer.

So, FTK? Please to give us list now?


Did this ever happen?

Was Albatrossity2's question ever addressed by FtK?  
Quote
Honestly, if you can find ANYTHING in a college-level intro textbook that is "speculation", and not clearly labeled as speculation, then you get a gold star. Saying it is true doesn't make it true.


[/delurking]

--------------
Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,20:37   

Quote (csadams @ June 25 2007,20:32)
[delurking]

Arden Chatfield's opening post:  
Quote
Now, I've asked FTK more times than I can remember now just what ferkakte peer-reviewed papers she's read and I've been ignored every time. Not even an "oh shut up Arden", or an "I don't have to tell you anything!" or even an "I already told you!" Deafening silence.

So, I figured if this question gets its own thread, with no other distracting questions, it SHOULD be easier to get an answer.

So, FTK? Please to give us list now?


Did this ever happen?

Was Albatrossity2's question ever addressed by FtK?  
Quote
Honestly, if you can find ANYTHING in a college-level intro textbook that is "speculation", and not clearly labeled as speculation, then you get a gold star. Saying it is true doesn't make it true.


[/delurking]

No on the first.

kinda on the second.

evidently she found a picture in the text summarizing the idea of common descent she found objectionable out of pure incredulity on her part.

It doesn't really answer the question posed by Alby, but technically it's at least a "response".

Arden's request was never positively responded to.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,21:16   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 25 2007,20:37)
 
Quote (csadams @ June 25 2007,20:32)
[delurking]

Arden Chatfield's opening post:    
Quote
Now, I've asked FTK more times than I can remember now just what ferkakte peer-reviewed papers she's read and I've been ignored every time. Not even an "oh shut up Arden", or an "I don't have to tell you anything!" or even an "I already told you!" Deafening silence.

So, I figured if this question gets its own thread, with no other distracting questions, it SHOULD be easier to get an answer.

So, FTK? Please to give us list now?


Did this ever happen?

Was Albatrossity2's question ever addressed by FtK?      
Quote
Honestly, if you can find ANYTHING in a college-level intro textbook that is "speculation", and not clearly labeled as speculation, then you get a gold star. Saying it is true doesn't make it true.


[/delurking]

No on the first.

kinda on the second.

evidently she found a picture in the text summarizing the idea of common descent she found objectionable out of pure incredulity on her part.

It doesn't really answer the question posed by Alby, but technically it's at least a "response".

Arden's request was never positively responded to.

Did she really ever address it directly? I've been looking on this thread (and others) for that alleged response, but all I found was this oblique reference. If there is another place where she listed some real examples of unwarranted speculation in that book (especially if it includes a figure number or page number), I'd appreciate the pointer. Particularly since I happen to have a copy of the same textbook that I sent her, and I'd like to see it for myself...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,21:22   

nope. that oblique reference is what I was referring to, where she expounds on her incredulity when faced with a pictoral representation of common descent.

It sure sounded a lot like a projection of the "goo to you" scream of the terminal creationist to me.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,21:29   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 25 2007,21:22)
nope. that oblique reference is what I was referring to, where she expounds on her incredulity when faced with a pictoral representation of common descent.

It sure sounded a lot like a projection of the "goo to you" scream of the terminal creationist to me.

Thanks for the quick response. Unfortunately, that comment didn't really address my request for some examples of unwarranted "speculation" in the textbook; I can't find any figure in the book that depicts the process as she describes it... So, FtK, if you are still with us, please let me know the figure or page number where you found this offensive image.

Thanks in advance

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,21:32   

yeah, like i said, it was a response, but not an answer.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,21:51   

Quote (csadams @ June 25 2007,20:32)
[delurking]

Arden Chatfield's opening post:  
Quote
Now, I've asked FTK more times than I can remember now just what ferkakte peer-reviewed papers she's read and I've been ignored every time. Not even an "oh shut up Arden", or an "I don't have to tell you anything!" or even an "I already told you!" Deafening silence.

So, I figured if this question gets its own thread, with no other distracting questions, it SHOULD be easier to get an answer.

So, FTK? Please to give us list now?


Did this ever happen?

Was Albatrossity2's question ever addressed by FtK?  
Quote
Honestly, if you can find ANYTHING in a college-level intro textbook that is "speculation", and not clearly labeled as speculation, then you get a gold star. Saying it is true doesn't make it true.


[/delurking]

Back on June 10th, FTK admitted to this (which I wrote):

Quote

a) you have 'read' articles, but you didn't understand most of them, mentally rejected them, and they made so little of an impression on you, you really can't name any of them.


--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,11:23   

Wow!  I took a couple days off for a baseball tournament, and next thing you know, all hell breaks loose!  Well at least a little Walt Brown Flood HydroPlate crazy talk....

FTK - even other Creos don't believe Brown's knucklehead
theories.  Read the following link thrashing Brown by an OEC:

http://lordibelieve.org/wbrown.doc

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Rev. BigDumbChimp



Posts: 185
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,11:35   

FTK,
I have a serious question. What is it about people who are in your life position that make them want to believe the most far fetched and least supported ideas by people like Brown or Ham or Hovind? Some who's methods and research are so poor they're laughed off by even other creationists and yet dismiss the findings of the people who are the best educated, most experienced and happen to occupy the vast vast majority of the scientific population?

I know you consider yourself an open minded person, and ignoring your propensity to show that you are anything but, are you so insecure in the ability of your own mind to process the information that you have to fall back to the lowest common denominator of, and I use this term in the most loose definition possible, Science?

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,11:53   

Quote (Rev. BigDumbChimp @ June 26 2007,11:35)
FTK,
I have a serious question. What is it about people who are in your life position that make them want to believe the most far fetched and least supported ideas by people like Brown or Ham or Hovind? Some who's methods and research are so poor they're laughed off by even other creationists and yet dismiss the findings of the people who are the best educated, most experienced and happen to occupy the vast vast majority of the scientific population?

I know you consider yourself an open minded person, and ignoring your propensity to show that you are anything but, are you so insecure in the ability of your own mind to process the information that you have to fall back to the lowest common denominator of, and I use this term in the most loose definition possible, Science?

Cue the blather.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Rev. BigDumbChimp



Posts: 185
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,11:55   

Quote (blipey @ June 26 2007,11:53)
Quote (Rev. BigDumbChimp @ June 26 2007,11:35)
FTK,
I have a serious question. What is it about people who are in your life position that make them want to believe the most far fetched and least supported ideas by people like Brown or Ham or Hovind? Some who's methods and research are so poor they're laughed off by even other creationists and yet dismiss the findings of the people who are the best educated, most experienced and happen to occupy the vast vast majority of the scientific population?

I know you consider yourself an open minded person, and ignoring your propensity to show that you are anything but, are you so insecure in the ability of your own mind to process the information that you have to fall back to the lowest common denominator of, and I use this term in the most loose definition possible, Science?

Cue the blather.

Yeah I know......


I'd love an honest answer but....at least maybe it will be entertaining.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,12:09   

Quote (Rev. BigDumbChimp @ June 26 2007,11:35)
FTK,
I have a serious question. What is it about people who are in your life position that make them want to believe the most far fetched and least supported ideas by people like Brown or Ham or Hovind? Some who's methods and research are so poor they're laughed off by even other creationists and yet dismiss the findings of the people who are the best educated, most experienced and happen to occupy the vast vast majority of the scientific population?

Sometimes it's helpful to remember that in Fundyworld, the alternative isn't very pleasant.

The apparent choice is Jesus and Heaven and acceptance by friends and family, or Hell and Death and Torment and ostracization and ridicule.

Reality isn't even a considered option, so one has no real choice but to grasp at any straw that happens by.  It really is a lot like trying to build a grass hut in the midst of a tornado.

When the full weight of reality and mortality lands on your head like a ton of bricks, it's a terrifyingly agonizing moment.

Been there, done that, totally understand, but I wouldn't repeat the experience for all the tea in China.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,15:03   

What, no FtK in a few days?

Maybe she's been waiting for me to reappear with further discussion of Walt Brown's ebook train crash. Well, sadly FtK I haven't been able to read any more, my net went down, and it's just back, but never fear, oh pirahna one, I shall continue where I left off.

--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,15:14   

I'm willing to let it slide, 'cause it's just so damn funny, but really, she gives piranha a bad name.

piranha make far better decisions about what to attack beforehand.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,15:28   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 26 2007,15:14)
I'm willing to let it slide, 'cause it's just so damn funny, but really, she gives piranha a bad name.

piranha make far better decisions about what to attack beforehand.

Oh I do hope she doesnt take it as a breakdown in civility, I'm rather enjoying the conversation with her.

--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
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