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Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2006,09:05    It needs to be on teh web so I can link to it. I just have it native on my desktop. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2006,09:07    You could host it on Imageshack. That's what I do with photos. It's very convenient.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2006,09:14    THE ID TIMELINE -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2006,10:55    in referring to Dembski, Brayton wrote: Quote This is either flagrant dishonesty or pure delusion. There is no other explanation. actually, the most accurate fit is projection. I can't figure out why this so often goes unrecognized by so many who have backgrounds in biology, and must have at least take one pysch class along the way. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2006,13:12    Projection would be a type of delusion.

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2006,13:18    BRAVO, Richard, that's VERY nice work. May I steal it for use in the future, elsewhere? -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2006,14:06    Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 23 2006,18:18) BRAVO, Richard, that's VERY nice work. May I steal it for use in the future, elsewhere? Of course! You can have the origional Visio or a big ass Jpeg if you like. I'll even thrown in "Explanitory filter 2.0" for free. PM me with your prefernces and email. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Aardvark Posts: 134 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2006,14:34    BarryA: Quote The point is that religious violence, as reprehensible and evil as it is, is checked by the ethical standards of the religious people who commit it. Oh dear... http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/70#comments

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2006,17:10    Re "But heres the key point: There was no fitness function. Instead, each strategy played games against randomly selected opponents in the population. For each game, both players were awarded points at the end. The payoff was 3 points for a win, -2 points for a loss, and 0 points for a draw." How is awarding points for win, lose or draw not a fitness function? It sure looks like one to me. Henry

N.Wells Posts: 1836 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2006,17:46    That whole Darwin-Hitler thread is appalling.  I'm not saying that Darwin in particular and science in general haven't occasionally been misused, misapplied, and put to work on behalf of some truly atrocious causes, but they are getting themselves seriously frothed up over a scientific theory.   Mass killing precedes Darwin.  Slavery and genocide are in the bible, commanded by god in some instances.  More to the point it is obvious that religion can be a force for good or evil, as can pretty much anything else ("Lebensraum", 'poor encircled Germany', and 'Gott mit uns' went a long way in helping Germans justify their aggression to themselves). Even if the IDists manage somehow to remain completely blind to the fact that that people determined on evil acts will use anything they can to justify or rationalize their behavior, their whole endeavor will stand as yet another example for future generations of the extent to which people happily torture rationality to further their ideology.

blipey Posts: 2061 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2006,19:41    Quote How is awarding points for win, lose or draw not a fitness function? It sure looks like one to me. I think the point is that no specific function was expected or necessarily likely.  There was no "WEASAL" or "Steiner Tree" to find.  Absolutely anything that scored more points could "win".  As the generations grew, this probably led to some very interesting and very different strategies, many equally effective. As was mentioned in the original post, strategies would have to compete against each other to be evaluated, not just against criteria to see how close or far it was from a particular function. This experiment represents more of a "free-for-all" than some GA experiments.  I believe this is what was meant; I'm sure someone can correct me if I am wrong. -------------- But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

keiths Posts: 2195 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,00:25    What the fork??? Quote Before Darwin, racial prejudice and eugenic practices existed but were just good ‘ol fashioned bigotry, hatred and murder and can be pretty much seen as just that (the above reference to Martin Luther included). What Darwin and ilk did do was to develope theoretical system justifying it and promoting it implementation by paving the highway for mass slaughter in the philosphical(as opposed to the by-ways and side tracks in history to which is was always limited to). Furthermore Darwinism is a univeral trend which carried to it’s logical conclusion, ultimately provides the way to a irrational society (where Dawkins claims to get his sense of rational from beats me) where there is no absolute morality (only set by the ruler of the day) and so we either close down all the butcher shops and become vegans or it’s a $2.5-per pound of fresh little girl sirloin and $3.50 for beef. Comment by lucID — August 24, 2006 @ 3:59 am Uh, lucID -- Who's missing that  "sense of rational" again? -------------- And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,01:27    Richard: Thank you! I'm going to use the one you posted here, it's nice and compact, yet still readable. Bah, and on a much more ugly note:  For one brief mad moment, I thought of posting a list at UD of quotes by Hitler extolling the virtues of Christianity and its influence on his thought. Some of those quotes can be seen here, for instance: http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_AHitler.htm Although most of the ones in that group are from Mein Kampf, Hitler's speeches ( which were collected) have far, far more, of course. Anyone can use google to find them, or a library. There are also quotes by almost every high-ranking Nazi on this subject. The amusing thing is that every Christian there would say " but Hitler was NOT a Christian" then many of them would turn around and say " but he was a DARWINIST, neener, neener."   Showing Hitler's references/allusions, or Albert Speer saying Hitler was a catholic until the day he committed suicide... that would be playing into their hands (or at least letting them direct the debate). In my view, this kind of hypocrisy and abuse of a decent man's memory ( Darwin)...is pure evil on the part of UD, but that's to be expected. They're covering the vacuity of their "science" while attacking strawmen. It stinks like a rotting red herring in the noonday sun, or the decaying remains of Dembski's ethics and morals. -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

ScaryFacts Posts: 337 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,02:30    Let me see if I follow this thinking… Hitler thought Darwinism was a good idea.  Hitler was evil.  Therefore Darwinism must be evil. OK, let’s apply this to something else Hitler thought was a good idea. Hitler thought everyone having their own car was a good idea. Hitler was evil.  Therefore individual auto ownership is evil.

blipey Posts: 2061 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,03:22    Quote (ScaryFacts @ Aug. 24 2006,07:30) Hitler thought everyone having their own car was a good idea. Hitler was evil.  Therefore individual auto ownership is evil. Or, perhaps, it's just ownership of the individual car.... I like to think Dimski has this same wide-eyed, OH S###!!!! look as he gazes over the IDC landscape. -------------- But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,03:32    Hitler also thought thought everyone should have their own Porsche of Stuttgart.Panzerkampfwagen VI Sd.Kfz 182's What a guy, mind you.... if it wasn't for his desire to rule the world he could have been a briliant biologist just like our wabble wousing mench WAD. Hail Kaiser William A. Dembski and his seven seditious southern sychophants.....(spoken with a lisp). What next from Chez Dumbster ...perhaps a beer hall putsch  in Midland Texas? That will go down a treat in the halls of the DI. Brown shirts anyone? -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,03:37    Oh DaveTard, I see you've grown some humility... http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1491#comment-55596 Quote 4.  I wrote a cribbage AI 20 years ago that people swore cheated. It’s still on the internet available for download at cardandboardgames.com It doesn’t cheat. I simply wrote an expert system that made the same decisions that I would make in any given situation. That alone made it a good competitor. I then improved on mother nature by leveraging what a computer is good at - calculating odds precisely and quickly. As each card was exposed I calculated the odds of where remaining cards would be. This would not be possible for a human unless some kind of savant like Rainman but it’s certainly not cheating. Think of it like card counting at blackjack in vegas only more complicated. I didn’t take any card into consideration until it had been legally exposed during normal gameplay. This made the program virtually invicible after playing it enough times for luck to average out so skill level can become evident. I could still whip the snot out of it but that’s because I knew exactly what it was thinking and that’s enough of an advantage to nullify the card counting. Comment by DaveScot — August 23, 2006 @ 11:14 pm So, if you had made a patent application and then reviewed it yourself, would you have approved it?

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,03:50    Quote I could still whip the snot out of it but that’s because I knew exactly what it was thinking and that’s enough of an advantage to nullify the card counting. No wonder he thinks he's god (or 'The One True God's TM  representative or more precisely sychophant to 'The One True God's TM  representative ...WADski) he just goes behind the curtain and pulls the levers ..or grows mushooms...or ..boring. -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

blipey Posts: 2061 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,03:57    I feel for Tom English. God bless him, he's trying to explain what models are to people who wouldn't recognize one or what its purpose was if it fell on them. Quote Again, modeling is abstraction. You seem to be asking for artificial life here, not an evolutionary algorithm. If you don’t know the difference between the two, Wiki will help set you straight. I give 5,000 : 1 it won't. -------------- But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,04:02    Quote (GCT @ Aug. 24 2006,08:37) Oh DaveTard, I see you've grown some humility... http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1491#comment-55596 Quote 4.  I wrote a cribbage AI 20 years ago that people swore cheated. It’s still on the internet available for download at cardandboardgames.com It doesn’t cheat. I simply wrote an expert system that made the same decisions that I would make in any given situation. That alone made it a good competitor. I then improved on mother nature by leveraging what a computer is good at - calculating odds precisely and quickly. As each card was exposed I calculated the odds of where remaining cards would be. This would not be possible for a human unless some kind of savant like Rainman but it’s certainly not cheating. Think of it like card counting at blackjack in vegas only more complicated. I didn’t take any card into consideration until it had been legally exposed during normal gameplay. This made the program virtually invicible after playing it enough times for luck to average out so skill level can become evident. I could still whip the snot out of it but that’s because I knew exactly what it was thinking and that’s enough of an advantage to nullify the card counting. Comment by DaveScot — August 23, 2006 @ 11:14 pm So, if you had made a patent application and then reviewed it yourself, would you have approved it? I'm still calling bull$hit. what langaue that he used 20 years ago is still  being used by modern PCs? Working out probabilities from a declining deck wityhout replacement is easy. Working out probabilistic distributions of how the cards will be played is hard, and confounded by the discard to the crib step of the game. There's also a stratgeic shift in card discarding and play if you're both close to the finish line. Again, Dave gives us no details, because he's making it up. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

blipey Posts: 2061 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,04:06    Quote I could still whip the snot out of it but that’s because I knew exactly what it was thinking and that’s enough of an advantage to nullify the card counting. Um, Dave.  If your program always made the best decision available, the randomness of your hands would preclude you winning all of them.  If he had better cards than you, he would always win.  If the cards were evenish, he's most likely win, and he'd probably even steal couple when at a disadvantage. Also, how exactly would you whip him when he was dealt: 5C,  5D, 5H, JkS, and 5S comes on the cut?  By knowing he was going to kick your ass, you nulified his superior hand?  The play of cribbage is by far the least important aspect of the game; it's the meld that counts. -------------- But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,04:17    Quote (blipey @ Aug. 24 2006,09:06) Quote I could still whip the snot out of it but that’s because I knew exactly what it was thinking and that’s enough of an advantage to nullify the card counting. Um, Dave.  If your program always made the best decision available, the randomness of your hands would preclude you winning all of them.  If he had better cards than you, he would always win.  If the cards were evenish, he's most likely win, and he'd probably even steal couple when at a disadvantage. Also, how exactly would you whip him when he was dealt: 5C,  5D, 5H, JkS, and 5S comes on the cut?  By knowing he was going to kick your ass, you nulified his superior hand?  The play of cribbage is by far the least important aspect of the game; it's the meld that counts. First up: He's bluffing. But if it used suboptimal logic (lead with your lowest card for example), then you would have an advantage. Let's say your hand contains (2,7,7,9) Leading off with a 7 would be best...? that's because if they then drop a 7 (low prob because you have 2) you can play the 3rd for 6 points. If they play and 8 (for the 15) then you have the 9 for a run of 3... There's a lot of nested logic of hypthetical comibitorial plays, which creates a large state-space. Could Dave do that? Erm......no. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,04:27    Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 24 2006,06:27) Richard: Thank you! I'm going to use the one you posted here, it's nice and compact, yet still readable. I do ask you show us its use, though! -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,05:04    Quote (keiths @ Aug. 24 2006,06:25) What the fork??? Quote Before Darwin, racial prejudice and eugenic practices existed but were just good ‘ol fashioned bigotry, hatred and murder and can be pretty much seen as just that (the above reference to Martin Luther included). What Darwin and ilk did do was to develope theoretical system justifying it and promoting it implementation by paving the highway for mass slaughter in the philosphical(as opposed to the by-ways and side tracks in history to which is was always limited to). Furthermore Darwinism is a univeral trend which carried to it’s logical conclusion, ultimately provides the way to a irrational society (where Dawkins claims to get his sense of rational from beats me) where there is no absolute morality (only set by the ruler of the day) and so we either close down all the butcher shops and become vegans or it’s a $2.5-per pound of fresh little girl sirloin and $3.50 for beef. Comment by lucID — August 24, 2006 @ 3:59 am Uh, lucID -- Who's missing that  "sense of rational" again? I think lucID would fail a Turing Test.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,05:11    Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 24 2006,10:02) I'm still calling bull$hit. what langaue that he used 20 years ago is still  being used by modern PCs? C C++ Lisp Fortran Scheme

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,05:15    Quote (stevestory @ Aug. 24 2006,10:11) Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 24 2006,10:02) I'm still calling bull$hit. what langaue that he used 20 years ago is still  being used by modern PCs? C C++ Lisp Fortran Scheme from the Wiki: Since the 1990s, C++ has been one of the most popular commercial programming languages. the others aren't really mainstream. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,05:29    DT: http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1491#comment-55740 Quote Music appreciation is intensely subjective. And since the appreciation is subjective so too must be the composition otherwise everyone could be a wildly successful composer just by following formulaic procedures. I think the mathematical connection pretty much starts and ends with simple relationships between notes on the scale and also the way the notes combine to form harmonic sounds. Time signatures and dynamics? -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

dhogaza Posts: 525 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,05:30    Quote Since the 1990s, C++ has been one of the most popular commercial programming languages. the others aren't really mainstream. C and Fortran aren't mainstream? The compiler company I started many years ago to market  my compiler technology was selling a C++ compiler commerically by the late 1980s, and Cfront (Strastroup's C++->C translator) was available before that.  It did take awhile for it to become popular.  Personally, if it were up to me, I'd shoot it.  C++ has grown irrationally and sucks. And I wrote a hearts program when I was a teen that, um, I wouldn't dignify with the term "AI".  I have no idea why DaveTard thinks his trivial cribbage program is an "AI".   Oh, yeah, a distant descendant of my hearts program is still available for downloading on the internet.  Big whoop-de-do, huh?  The trivial shit Dave brags about says a lot about him.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,05:31    EE guys like Davetard love C to death, though.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2006,05:38    Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 23 2006,22:46) That whole Darwin-Hitler thread is appalling.  I'm not saying that Darwin in particular and science in general haven't occasionally been misused, misapplied, and put to work on behalf of some truly atrocious causes, but they are getting themselves seriously frothed up over a scientific theory.   Mass killing precedes Darwin.  Slavery and genocide are in the bible, commanded by god in some instances.  More to the point it is obvious that religion can be a force for good or evil, as can pretty much anything else ("Lebensraum", 'poor encircled Germany', and 'Gott mit uns' went a long way in helping Germans justify their aggression to themselves). Even if the IDists manage somehow to remain completely blind to the fact that that people determined on evil acts will use anything they can to justify or rationalize their behavior, their whole endeavor will stand as yet another example for future generations of the extent to which people happily torture rationality to further their ideology. The standard links on Hitler's Christianity, guys: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm The first one has a bunch of good links at the bottom. The bottom line on saying Hitler was a Darwinist but not a Christian is that you have to explain why he was an avid follower of an ideology he NEVER ONCE mentioned ('Darwinism' ), while he was NOT an avid believer of an ideology he invoked all the time (Christianity). However, this requires honesty and logical consistency, so that's right out for Dembski and his kids. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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