Badger3k
Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008
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| Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,20:58) | | Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,20:42) | | Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:53) | | Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,19:45) | | Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:25) | | Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,16:58) | | Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,15:24) | | Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,14:31) | | Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48) | | Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01) | | I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago. He doesn't allow dissent. |
The first sentence is true. The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting. (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it. Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)
So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?
You, Biggy, what's the difference?
The MadPanda, FCD |
It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.
That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does. |
No, I would disagree that anti-abortion "fanatics" are *against abortion* because they know that premarital sex is a sin. Nor, do I look at STD's as punishment. Also, I might add that I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage. Although, I'd agree that this is a very difficult thing to do, but not impossible.
Abortion should not be considered birth control, and that is how I see people using it (1). There are plenty of options out there for birth control. I don't have any opinion about whether abortion should be legalized or not. Every woman has to make this choice, I would just hope that they make it wisely. Personally, I don't think the government should be involved in the issue at all.
There is a reason why God advises one man/one woman (2). He is the creator....he knows how we were created to live so that we can live life to the fullest. Promiscuity leads to endless problems as well as disease. It's not how we were created to live. It also tends to make marriage to one person more difficult if people have become accustomed to sleeping with whomever makes us feel good at present. God didn't make rules to make us miserable, but to help us live healthier life styles. There are endless stories in the Bible that show what happens when biblical figures had multiple wives or cheated on their spouses. Good never came of it. So, it's not God looking down at us and not permitting us to enjoy life by being promiscuous or punishing us for doing so, but rather he is providing us with the forumla for happy healthy relationships. |
Bolding mine.
(1) This is the problem. You think this is how people are using it, but in 43 years of life, I've never met, seen, or heard of anyone who actually sees it like this, short of anti-choice fanatics. It's a talking point, a way of reducing the person making the choice to someone you can spit on and feel superior to. It completely ignores reality, even though you seem to realize it on one level. I do find it odd that you have no opinion whether it should be legalized or not, yet you say that every woman has to make that choice and that the government should not be involved. Sounds pro-choice to me.
(2) Except for all that Old Testament polygamy thing. And the forced "marriages" of captured virgins to the people who killed their families. Marriage to rapists. Yeah, God must have changed his mind, then. Like so much else in the Big Book of Multiple Excuses... |
Mhmm...okay, just my opinion again...
Let me clarify just a bit regarding using abortion as birth control. I don't believe that a woman, when she is making love with someone without protection, is thinking "oh, what the hell, if anything happens, I'll have an abortion".
But, I think that with the rate of abortions we see today, subconsciously, we know there is a way to rid of an unwanted pregnancy if all else fails.
Let me just add, that this is something that comes to anyone's mind regardless of religion if you are in the that position. Since it has been legalized by the government, there is ample opportunity to get abortions and I'd bet that abortion numbers are WAY up in comparision to before abortions were legal. Im sure promiscuity is way up as well. There is always a way out of it. And, even people who have been brought up knowing that abortion is wrong may take this avenue because it appears initially as the easy way out. It's something many regret. I remember thinking about it myself several months ago, when I thought I might be pregnant. Im 45...that would not be cool. All kinds of things crossed my mind. I think by making abortion so readily available, we kill millions of children every year, when much, much better options are out there.
As for OT polygamy, God did not advise this as a way to live. It was what was going on at the time. Many, many wrong or evil things occured historically in the Bible that were not dictated by God. Yes, there are those *very* few incidences in the OT where God commands something that seems to go against the grain. I cannot answer for God....I don't know all the circumstances, and I cannot know His mind. Overall, the Bible is *very consistent* in God's commands. There are endless arguments as to how one can justify God's actions in these few circumstances, but in the end, I'll have lots of questions for Him when I hit the pearly gates. Creation 101 is on the top of my list. |
I suspect that any statistics on abortions before they were legal would be a bit understated. Probably about the same way rape statistics are understated since there are a lot that go unreported. I did think that abortions were actually down, but don't have any statistics on hand. I am curious about other cultures as well, since we here in America are often outliers and a little....confused.
We have approx 80 out of 1600 high school kids pregnant right now where I work. As far as I know, none have considered abortion, and it's not my place or decision to suggest it. It would have been better if they had learned proper birth control rather than have kids, then have to suffer the economic and educational burden that they didn't need to have. Kids have never waited, abstinence does not work, but this is straying a bit from the original point, but I use this as a counter-example.
The "it wasn't God's command" apologetics doesn't work. I was trying to find specific verses, but here's a quick list from the Skeptics Annotaited Bible (polygamy) - all these verses and yet God never said - "stop"? You're correct in that it was the custom of the time, and as the customs changed, so did the writings found in the Bible. It is funny to see how YHVH kept changing in time with society, and if it wasn't for Christianity freezing the bible in time, we'd probably have new books detailing new customs and morals instead of people just saying "you need to interpret this in this way...". The bible is only consistent when looked at through apologetics glasses. |
Free will Badger....seeing how people respond today to God's will, I don't think telling them to 'stop' would have accomplished a thing. He doesn't change His laws...we do. |
If you believe that God knows everything, then there is no free will. If you believe that God has a plan for everyone, or there is such a thing as destiny...no free will.
The Free Will Defense is a standard apologetic for the problem of evil, and it fails there. It fails with what I was saying anyway since the Bible itself shows changing cultural mores (and morality) over time. If you consider the bible to be divine or inspired in any way, then you are left with the argument that God has indeed changed his laws, or else he has let others change them, and put his seal of approval on those changes. Which is it?
Plus, read up in neuroscience - there is a lot there that strongly implies that what used to be called free will isn't really any such thing. Although to be fair, we'd have to start out with a definition of free will and go from there. |
I have no interest in getting into a debate over free will. There are so many arguments for and against. In the end, we believe God allows us to make choices aside from his will or we don't. Doesn't matter what we think, God is God....He's the Creator...He'll do what's best for us in the end, and all He asks in return is that we try our best to follow Him. He's not asking for perfection.
I know that is complete nonsense to you, and that's fine. No sense in arguing over it. |
Yeah, we can skip the free will bit - not the place for it anyway, and, yes, it makes no sense to me since it is all mythology anyway, but if you believe God is going to do what's best for you, then why do anything at all? If your choices make no difference, and God will take care of you, then why bother with it? Sorry, for me, while it may not make much sense, discussing/debating/arguing these things do many things - you can understand someone better (maybe), see viewpoints other than your own and hear arguments for them, which can cause you to adjust your own views, and such discussions can get your mind going, especially going into areas that you normally don't go. Questioning and introspection are important, especially when regarding your own ideas.
But if that's not your cup of tea, no problem - I won't have much time through the week to do more than read and make quick comments - the only reason I had time today is the two playoff games - Yeah Steelers and Packers - I went to school in Wisconsin, married a cheesehead, my brother is a Steelers fan married to another cheesehead, and I favor the Jags - on the same side as the Steelers. Gonna be a fun Superbowl this year.
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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G
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