carlsonjok
Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006
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| Quote (afdave @ Nov. 30 2006,08:56) | Carlson... | Quote | Wait a minute. You practically gave a dissertation on the "context" of the Treaty of Tripoli, but don't have any understanding of the context of John Jay's attempt to ban Catholics from holding office? Even though they come from the same wellspring of church-state philosophy? You are perfectly willing to enlist Jay in your quest to make the US into a Christian nation, but run for cover when you are asked to offer an opinion on Jay's bigotry towards Catholics.
Here is the problem, Dave. You can't offer up a quote from Jay unless you are willing to explain the context of it. And to explain the context of Jay's quotes, you need to explain it in light of Jay's bigotry towards non-Protestants. Further, you need to elucidate why such bigotry is not a clear repudiation of the concept of freedom of conscience that the bulk of the Founders espoused. Are you willing to do that? If Barton doesn't have anything ready to cut and paste, don't be afraid to wander of the res and offer your own thoughts. I promise I will be civil (unlike some of the other people around here  .) |
Show me why I should be interested in what Jay thought about Catholics. |
Because it is exactly the type of bigotry exhibited by Jay (*) that the Founders sought to forestall by keeping church and state completely separate. So, unless you can articulate reasoning to the contrary, by embracing Jay in your quest to prove this is a Christian nation, you are embracing his bigotry. So, I am trying to give you a chance to escape that problem. Why should we give any credence to Jay's opinion, when his "Christian nation" does not allow complete freedom of religion?
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My purpose here is to show that the Founders made America a Christian nation. And my purpose is to help restore that lost understanding in the minds of the general public. |
Your definition of a Christian (offered in an another post) is sufficiently broad that it is practically useless. Adams, Franklin, and Jefferson all specifically questioned and/or rejected the divinity of Christ. Claiming them as Christians is a bit of a stretch. But it gets worse. As we have seen already, only 3 of the 10 commandments can be found in American law and those three are also common across any number of different belief systems. In short, your definition could allow you to claim a Buddhist as a Christian. But, I am a bit short on time. I have work to do, a plane to catch, and given the weather at home it is unclear I will make it much further than Houston. 
So, let me ask a different question that I would like you to think over and respond to. Don't feel obligated to respond right away. Take your time. You said yesterday, in the discussion of the Treaty of Tripoli that the United States was a Christian nation, but did not have a Christian government. Do you wish to have a Christian government? If yes, explain how it would be different than the government we have now. If no, then what is the point of all this Christian nation effort if there is no practical difference to the government we have now.
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Carlson... | Quote | | 2004 must have been a bummer of a Presidential election for you, huh? |
Politics is a constant choice among multiple evils. You just take the choices you are given and decide which would be worse. My philosophy is that Government is a Necessary Evil. Let's minimize it as much as possible. |
On that I agree completely, although I expect that I am much more the libertarian than you are.
(*) Lest anyone think I am down on John Jay, I am not. Like all the Founding Fathers, he was human. He had his faults, but still made significant contributions. Dave and I certainly don't agree on what some of those contributions may be. And, to a certain extent, Jay's anti-Catholicism is somewhat understandable given his French Huguenot ancestry.
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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)
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