deadman_932
Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006
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Bwahahaha.
| Quote | DEADMAN AND THE RM DATING OF THE GRAND STAIRCASE
Lots of vertical space, yet all you did was regurgitate what I said. Quit misquoting you about what? I can't even get a straight answer out of you. Do you or don't you think the Grand Staircase layers can be dated radiometrically (or at least bracketed)? I think you do. And yes, you gave tons of dates, but they all apply to a small handfull of ash layers. |
Yes, I gave you dates on the Morrison/Brushy Basin. Which happens to be part of the Grand Staircase, along with citations for another half-dozen GS strata. But Davey-boy has a very selective memory. One might even say it's pathologically so. | Quote | On page 129 of this thread, Dave freaks out after a hard night of whatever he was arguing about with his family, then posts on dendro, varves and radiometric. He got caught using lies and quote-mined claims. so on page 130, he decides to pick apart one aspect of the Grand Canyon. He says | Quote | | Now ... I would like to know WHICH of these layers were dated RADIOMETRICALLY. Is it correct that NONE of the layers above the Great Unconformity can be dated RM? How about the layers below the GU? I'm thinking that the only layers that CAN be dated RM are the Zoroaster Granite and the Vishnu Schist. Is this correct? |
Meteor Crater in Arizona penetrates the Permian Kaibab and Toroweap Formations and has caused shock effects on the Coconino Sandstone. Because the crater penetrates Permian strata, it is Permian or younger. And since the crater contains some Pleistocene lake deposits, it is Pleistocene or older. The Geomorphology of the crater itself indicates only a small amount of erosion.
Nishiizumi et al. (Nishiizumi, K., Kohl, C.P., Shoemaker J.R., Arnold, J.R., Klein, J., Fink, D. and Middleton, R., 1991. In situ 10Be and 26Al exposure ages at Meteor Crater, Arizona. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 55, pp. 2699-2703.) report a minimum age of 49.2±1.7ka, based on 10Be and 26Al analyses of samples from the crater walls and ejecta blocks at the crater rim.
Phillips et al. (Phillips, F.M., Zreda, M.G., Smith, S.S., Elmore, D., Kubik, P.W., Dorn, R.I. and Roddy, D.J., 1991. Age and geomorphic history of Meteor Crater, Arizona, from cosmogenic Cl-36 and C-14 in rock varnish. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 55, pp. 2695-2698.) report a 36Cl exposure age of 49±0.7ka for dolomite ejecta on the crater rim.
Both sets of dates are in turn statistically identical to quartz thermoluminescence dates of 49±3ka reported by Sutton (Sutton, S.R., 1985. Thermoluminescence measurements on shock-metamorphosed sandstone and dolomite from Meteor Crater, Arizona. Journal of Geophysical Research 90(B5), pp. 3690-3700.)
the Precambrian Cardenas basalt in the east grand canyon is dated at about 780 to 810 million years: E.H. McKee and D.C. Noble, "Age of the Cardenas Lavas, Grand Canyon, Arizona," Geological Society of America Bulletin, 87 (Aug. 1976): 1188-1190.
which agrees with paleomagnetic data presented by:
Radiometric dating of the underlying Vishnu Group places its metamorphosis at about 1750 million years ago. GSA Bulletin: Vol. 108, No. 9, (pp. 1167-1181).
Two radiometric ages have been published for the the reworked tuff deposits found in the highest member of the Chinle, a K-Ar date of 239±9 Ma, and a U-Pb date of 207±2 Ma (Riggs, N. R., S. R. Ash, and J. M. Mattinson. 1994. Isotopic dating of a non-volcanic continental sequence, Chinle Formation, Arizona. Geological Society of America Abstracts with Programs, 26(6):61).
Riggs, N.R. S.R. Ash, A.P. Barth, G.E. Gehrels and J.L. Wooden (2003) Isotopic age of the Black Forest Bed, Petrified Forest Member, Chinle Formation, Arizona: An example of dating a continental sandstone. GSA Bulletin; v.115:11; p. 1315-1323 [Using Multigrain TIMS (thermal-ionization mass spectrometry), single-crystal TIMS, and SHRIMP (sensitive, high-resolution ion-microprobe).]
Ash beds within the Carmel have yielded Ma Laser-fusion single-crystal 40Ar/39Ar dates between 166.3 and 168.0 ± 0.5 (Kowallis, et al. 2001. The record of Middle Jurassic volcanism in the Carmel and Temple Cap Formations of southwestern Utah. GSA Bulletin, Vol. 113, No. 3, pp. 373-387).
Kowallis, B.J., Christiansen, E.H., Deino, A.L., Peterson, F., Turner, C.E., Kunk, M.J., and Obradovich, J.D., 1998, The age of the Morrison Formation: Modern Geology, v. 22, nos. 1-4, p. 235-260. 40Ar/39 Ar on sanidine in the Brushy Basin Member in Utah and Colorado yields ages of 148 to 150 million years old
Tuff from the Jurassic Morrison Formation is dated to 155-148 mya (Peterson, F., and Turner, C.E., 1998. Stratigraphy of the Ralston Creek and Morrison Formations [Upper Jurassic] near Denver, Colorado: Modern Geology, v. 22, nos. 1-4, p. 3-38).
Igneous sills on top of the Cretaceous Mancos Shale have been dated (K-Ar) at 66 million years ago, and ash layers in the Green River Shale have been dated at 50.2 +/- 1.9 mya (Buchheim, H. P., and Eugster. 1998. The Green River Formation of Fossil Basin, southwestern Wyoming. In J. Pitman, and A. Carroll, (eds.), Modern and Ancient Lacustrine Depositional Systems: Utah Geological Association. )
Smith,M. E., B. S. Singer, A. R. Carroll, and J. H. Fournelle (2006) High-resolution calibration of Eocene strata: 40Ar/39Ar geochronology of biotite in the Green River Formation. Geology, May 1, 2006; 34(5): 393 - 396.
W. C. Clyde, W. S. Bartels, G. F. Gunnell, and J.-P. Zonneveld (2004) 40Ar/39Ar geochronology of the Eocene Green River Formation, Wyoming: Discussion
GSA Bulletin, January 1, 2004; 116(1-2): 251 - 252.
Smith M. Elliot, Brad Singer and Alan Carroll ( 2003 )40Ar/39Ar geochronology of the Eocene Green River Formation, Wyoming. GSA Bulletin; v.115:5. p. 549-565
Pietras, J.T., A.R. Carroll, B.S. Singer and M.E. Smith (2003 )10 k.y. depositional cyclicity in the early Eocene: Stratigraphic and 40Ar/39Ar evidence from the lacustrine Green River Formation. Geology; July 2003; v.31:7; p. 593-596
Hicks, F.H., Obradovich, J.D., and Tauxe, L., 1995. A new calibration for the Late Cretaceous time scale: The 40Ar/39Ar isotopic age of the C33r/C33n geomagnetic reversal from the Judith River Formation (Upper Cretaceous), Elk Basin, Wyoming, USA: The Journal of Geology, v. 103, 243-256.
Obradovich, J.D., 1993, A Cretaceous time scale, in Caldwell, W.G.E., and Kauffman, E.G., editors, Evolution of the Western Interior basin: Geological Association of Canada Special Paper 39, p. 379-396. upper part of Dakota Formation -- Tropic Shale. " Bentonite Layer A dates 93.49 +/- 0.89 Ma (Obradovich, 1993). Bentonite B, which lies higher in the upper Cenomanian biozone of Neocardioceras juddii, was dated at 93.59 +/- 0.58 Ma. Bentonite C, which may lie in the lower Turonian biozone of Pseudaspidoceras flexuosum, was dated at 93.25 +/- 0.55 Ma, and bentonite D, in the lower Turonian biozone of Vascoceras birchbyi, was dated at 93.40 +/- 0.63 Ma."
McIntosh, W.C., Peters, L., Karlstrom, K.E., and Pederson, J.L., 2002. New 40Ar-39Ar dates on basalts in Grand Canyon: Constraints on rates of Quaternary river incision and slip on the Toroweap fault and implications for lava dams Geological Society of America Abstracts with. Programs, Rocky Mountain Section.
Joel Pederson, Karl Karlstrom, Warren Sharp and William McIntosh. 2002: Differential incision of the Grand Canyon related to Quaternary faulting-Constraints from U-series and Ar/Ar dating. Geology: Vol. 30, No. 8, pp. 739-742
" We hypothesize that this differential incision is due to west-down slip on the Toroweap fault of 94 ± 6 m/m.y. based on measured offset of the newly dated Upper Prospect basalt flow, which is the major middle-late Quaternary slip evident along the river."
Carlos M. González-León et. al. (2005) New data on the lithostratigraphy, detrital zircon and Nd isotope provenance, and paleogeographic setting of the El Antimonio Group, Sonora, Mexico. Geological Society of America Special Paper 393: The Mojave-Sonora Megashear Hypothesis: Development, Assessment, and Alternatives: pp. 259-282. "Lower Jurassic El Antimonio sections are known in southern Nevada and southeastern California and include the Moenkopi, Virgin Limestone, Union Wash, Silverlake, and Fairview Valley Formations and the Kings sequence. New U-Pb geochronology on detrital zircon and Sm/Nd isotope and petrographic data from terrigenous samples of the El Antimonio Group may help to elucidate its provenance and to support this paleogeography. Zircon grains from samples of the lower, middle, and upper parts of the El Antimonio Group yielded ages that cluster ... 340, 270-240, and 190 Ma."
Fenton, Cassandra R., Poreda Poreda, Robert J., Nash, Barbara P., Webb, Robert H., and Cerling, Thure E., (2004), “Geochemical Discrimination of Five Pleistocene Lava Discrimination of Five Pleistocene Lava-Dam Outburst-Flood Deposits, Western Grand Canyon, Arizona”, The Journal of Geology, Vol. 112, pp. 91-110.
Galen P. Halverson, Paul F. Hoffman, Daniel P. Schrag, Adam C. Maloof and A. Hugh N. Rice. 2005: Toward a Neoproterozoic composite carbon-isotope record. Geological Society of America Bulletin: Vol. 117, No. 9, pp. 1181-1207.
C.M. Dehler, M. Elrick, J.D. Bloch, L.J. Crossey, K.E. Karlstrom and D.J. Des Marais. 2005: High-resolution d13C stratigraphy of the Chuar Group (ca. 770-742 Ma), Grand Canyon: Implications for mid-Neoproterozoic climate change. Geological Society of America Bulletin: Vol. 117, No. 1, pp. 32-45.
Ochs, S., 1988, Stratigraphy, depositional environments, and petrology of the lowermost Moenkopi Formation, southeastern Utah: Salt Lake City, M.S. Thesis, University of Utah.
Richard F. Holm. 2001: Cenozoic paleogeography of the central Mogollon Rim-southern Colorado Plateau region, Arizona, revealed by Tertiary gravel deposits, Oligocene to Pleistocene lava flows, and incised streams. Geological Society of America Bulletin: Vol.
J. Michael Timmons, Karl E. Karlstrom, Carol M. Dehler, John W. Geissman and Matthew T. Heizler. 2001: Proterozoic multistage (ca. 1.1 and 0.8 Ga) extension recorded in the Grand Canyon Supergroup and establishment of northwest- and north-trending tectonic grains in the southwestern United States. Geological Society of America Bulletin: Vol. 113, No. 2, pp. 163-181.
Foster, D. A., A. J. W. Gleadow, S. J. Reynolds, and P. G. Fitzgerald, Denudation of metamorphic core complexes and the reconstruction of the transition zone, west central Arizona; constraints from apatite fission track thermochronology, Journal of Geophysical Research, 98, (2), 2167-2185, 1993
Jacqueline E. Huntoon, Russell F. Dubiel, John D. Stanesco, Debra L. Mickelson and Steven M. Condon. 2002: Permian-Triassic depositional systems, paleogeography, paleoclimate, and hydrocarbon resources in Canyonlands and Monument Valley, Utah. GSA Field Guide 3: Science at the Highest Level: Vol. 3, No. 0, pp. 33-58.
Joel Pederson, Karl Karlstrom, Warren Sharp and William McIntosh. 2002: Differential incision of the Grand Canyon related to Quaternary faulting-Constraints from U-series and Ar/Ar dating. Geology: Vol. 30, No. 8, pp. 739-742
" We hypothesize that this differential incision is due to west-down slip on the Toroweap fault of 94 ± 6 m/m.y. based on measured offset of the newly dated Upper Prospect basalt flow, which is the major middle-late Quaternary slip evident along the river."
Kenneth L. Cole and Larry Mayer. 1982: Use of packrat middens to determine rates of cliff retreat in the eastern Grand Canyon, Arizona. Geology: Vol. 10, No. 11, pp. 597-599. "cliff retreat, which is comparable to other cliff-retreat rates reported from arid environments, implies that the Colorado River cut through the Redwall Limestone in the vicinity of Horseshoe Mesa about 3.7 m.y. B.P."
Wendell Duffield, Nancy Riggs, Darrell Kaufman, Duane Champion, Cassandra Fenton, Steven Forman, William McIntosh, Richard Hereford, Jeffery Plescia and Michael Ort. 2006: Multiple constraints on the age of a Pleistocene lava dam across the Little Colorado River at Grand Falls, Arizona. Geological Society of America Bulletin: Vol. 118, No. 3, pp. 421-429
STEPHEN T. NELSON, JON P. DAVIDSON and KIM R. SULLIVAN. 1992: New age determinations of central Colorado Plateau laccoliths, Utah: Recognizing disturbed K-Ar systematics and re-evaluating tectonomagmatic relationships. Geological Society of America Bulletin: Vol. 104, No. 12, pp. 1547-1560. "incision of meanders on the Mogollon Slope occurred in the late Pliocene to Pleistocene Epochs as a result of integration of the Little Colorado River with the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon."
RICHARD L. REYNOLDS, MARK R. HUDSON, NEIL S. FISHMAN, and JOHN A. CAMPBELL. (1985) . Paleomagnetic and petrologic evidence bearing on the age and origin of uranium deposits in the Permian Cutler Formation, Lisbon Valley, Utah Geological Society of America Bulletin: Vol. 96, No. 6, pp. 719-730
Roberto S Molina Garza, John W Geissman, Spencer G Lucas (2000) Palaeomagnetism and magnetostratigraphy of uppermost Permian strata, southeast New Mexico, USA: correlation of the Permian-Triassic boundary in non-marine environments. Geophysical Journal International Volume 141, Issue 3, Page 778-786
Hamblin, W. Kenneth, (1994), “Late Cenezoic Cenezoic Lava Dams In The Lava Dams In The Western Grand Canyon”, Geological Society of America Memoir 183:139
Faulds, J. E., D. L. Feuerbach, C. F. Miller, and E. I Smith, Cenozoic evolution of the northern Colorado River extensional corridor, southern Nevada and northwest Arizona, in The Geologic Transition, High Plateaus to Great Basin-A Symposium and Field Guide, The Mackin Volume, M. C. Erskine, J. E. Faulds, J. M. Bartley, and P. D. Rowley (eds.), Utah Geol. Assoc. Publ., 30 [also Pacific Sec., Am. Assoc. Petrol. Geol. Publ. GB78], 239-271, 2001.
Fenton, C. R., R. H. Webb, P. A. Pearthree, T. E. Cerling, and R. J. Poreda, Displacement rates on the Toroweap and Hurricane faults: Implications for Quaternary downcutting in the Grand Canyon, Arizona, Geology, 29, 1035-1038, 2001 |
Let's get another thing straight, Dave, do you want to discuss the civilizations that preceded the flood date you gave and lived right through it? Will you run? will you try to avoid the posts? Or will you deal with it honestly and straightforwardly and not try to find excuses to run off "rabbit trails " as you call them? Yes or no, Dave. You gave this statement:
| Quote | | I simply want you to explain how you deal with these supposed problems. If you are so sure Egyptian chronology goes back to 3150 BC, great! Convince me! Maybe this will be the first topic we actually agree on. |
In the midst of me demonstrating the line-forline, word -for -word plagiarism you engaged in, which you tried to excuse by saying you "heard it at a lecture," then admitted you MIGHT have read on that .PDF.
IS IT CITED ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET? ANY OTHER WORK THAT YOU HAVE?? NO, NOT THAT **YOU ** HAVE MENTIONED. JUST THAT ONE SITE THAT YOU TOOK IT FROM, PLAGIARIST
| Quote | all I want to know is why Deadman thinks the Egyptians lived prior to 2350 BC.
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It's not **JUST** the Egyptians, Dave, it's The Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Chinese, Harrappans, ProtoMyceneans and others. I want to discuss this, Dave, and I am not limited to Egyptians at all. IN this discussion, I will bring in any data I see fit, at any time I please. All I expect is that you actually address the issues DIRECTLY.
ON the issue of moon rocks argon, Dave says : | Quote | | HOW, pray tell, do they know that 40Ar is "overabundant"? Something cannot be "overabundant" without having some expectation that you are comparing it to. What is that expectation? |
The expectation is on decay rates/production of isotopes, a statistically observable and quantifiable phenomenon, Dave, as I SAID IN MY POST ABOVE.
Finally, on the Guarani: the historical homeland of the Guarani is on the borders of Paraguay, Brazil and Argentina, along the Parana and Paraguay rivers, Longitude 53 or so. The Inca empire reached it's greatest extent in the 15th century, along the central Chilean Coast, THEN CONTRACTED. This is over a thousand miles away, at BEST. The heartland of the Incan Empire is fully over two thousand miles away, even in a straight line ACROSS THE ANDES.
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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism
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