Deposition of Dennis Glasgow - Page 2
referring to that which you've read?
A. I would like to first of all say that I do not
consider myself a scientist, I am an educator. And as an
educator, it's not my responsibility to judge information as
to whether it is scientifically, technically correct or not.
And I don't have the expertise to do that. Generally,
from my background and experience, you know, I have had
some experience in science, some training in science. I
can make some general judgments as to whether something
conforms to what I consider the processes of science, et
cetera. But generally, as an educator and a non-expert
on the very technical aspects of science, I rely upon the
scientific community, scientific publications,
professional groups of scientists, et cetera for my
Q. Well then, do I understand you to say that when you
said when -- you testified earlier that what you had
read was unacceptable; one, because it was not accepted
in the scientific community; and two, because it had
religious references. In reference to the scientific
community you were only saying that it was unacceptable
because it was not accepted in the scientific community? If
you want me to rephrase that question, I will.
A. You might. I think I understand it, but go ahead.
Q. Okay. Did you before say that what you had read
regarding Creation Science was unacceptable to you
professionally and personally?
Q. Okay. And professionally, was it unacceptable to
you because it was not accepted in the scientific community?
A. That's a major factor, that's not the only factor.
Q. Okay. And what other factor was there?
A. Well I'm not completely unaware of science. And
the appropriate process for discovering information,
publishing, the process of science. That's one thing that
we really deal with in the public schools, the process of
science. And I don't have to be a professional scientist
to realize that the information -- or not the information
as such, but the conclusions or the interpretations of
the information that I've seen supporting Creation
Science have not been published in the mainstream of
scientific journals or really in anything that I'm aware
of that is a scientific journals, not to say that some
tidbits of information haven't been published.
But if you recall, I said the process
is to discover the raw data or collect the information
and then to apply an interpretation or interpret that
information. The raw data -- some of the things that I
mentioned are found in scientific journals and are part
of science. But the interpretations that's put on that
data I've not found in scientific journals. So, as a
process, sure the scientists don't accept it. And I feel,
as a science educator I am to teach what is determined as
science by scientists. But on a more personal note,
I realize what the process of science is and I can figure
out from reading and observing the world and reading the
journals and books, et cetera that this has not, in my
opinion, gone through the rigorous process that would cause
it to be legitimate science for teaching the students in the
Q. Are you contending that all of the evidence regarding
Creation Science -- excuse me, let me rephrase that. Are
you contending that none of the evidence supporting
Creation Science have been published in, for lack of
a better word, accepted scientific journals?
A. You may have to define evidence or else I'll
qualify my statement with some definition of evidence.
As I said before, the raw data for that, to my knowledge,
has been published at one time or another in different
scientific journals. The interpretation of that data
that would fit it to these six things in Section 4A, I
have not seen published in any scientific journals.
Again, I'm saying I'm not a scientist. And I don't claim
to have read all of it or anything else. But to my
knowledge, that would be a true statement.
Q. In other words, you don't know. Could be, might
be, might not be.
A. Well, I'll say with my background in science, and
the courses I've taken, and the seminars I've attended I've
never been exposed to it.
Q. Okay Let -- you have brought today Xeroxed copies
of pages out of some books. And I'd like for you to
go through those books and state the name of the book,
the course name, the grade level, and the impact that Act
590 would have on each of those books.
A. The first book is "Holt Elementary Science." The
course name is just Elementary Science. The grade is
grade 2. I tell you what I'm going to do, mine is all
paper clipped, so I'm going to find this page first
and then that page. Is that all right?
Q. That's fine.
A. On -- now, the things that I've identified are
things that in my mind could possibly, and most of them
likely some of them maybe not as likely but I didn't make
that judgment, brain storm things that would possibly
be affected by Act 590.
The first one in grade 2, the book
that I just referred to, is found on the teacher's
edition, page T-110.
Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you if the copies have been
marked Defendant's Exhibit #10?
A. Yes, it has.
Q. Okay. Go ahead, I'm sorry.
A. On that page, as far as teacher matter is
concerned, there is a statement that "animals can be
classified as amphibians, reptiles, birds, fish, and
mammals." This, roughly speaking, is a phylogenetic
arrangement, not in the exact order. But if teachers deal
with this, as many of them probably will, it will be in an
exact phylogenetic classification going from less complex
forms to more complex forms, which possibly could trigger
Act 590. On page T-111, the very next page, is a statement,
again in the teacher matter, teacher background information,
that states that, "A group of reptiles known as dinosaurs
once lived on earth. These animals could not adapt to the
changing conditions of our earth and became extinct about
sixty-five million years ago. Evidence of dinosaurs is found
in fossil remains and footprints." I think the key phrase
here is that dinosaurs once lived on earth, they are no
longer living, and they became extinct about sixty-five
million years could trigger Act 590 from the standpoint of
the earth being a lot older, I think, than the Creation
Science so called model, or idea, or theories, whatever you
want to call them would suggest. In the same book on page
T-131. Q. Yes.
A. In the student matter is a statement that "A very
long time ago animals called dinosaurs lived on the earth."
"A very long time ago," I think would be the triggering
phrase since, in the teacher matter that goes with this and
I think I stated before in elementary books very little
information is given, much of the supplementary information
is given only to the teacher to use in discussion with the
children. In the teacher edition under the motivation part,
right underneath that it says, "Tell the children a long
time ago the earth was very different from the way it is
today. It was much warmer, different kinds of plants grew,
and different types of animals lived. The type of animal
that lived then was a dinosaur." Ask the children, have you
ever seen movies that show dinosaurs? Many times they are
pictured as mean monsters. Explain that people did not live
on earth at the same time when dinosaurs lived." I think --
first of all, just the mention of dinosaurs and that they
lived a long time ago could possibly trigger it. The fact
that it states that people did not live at the same time
that dinosurs lived could possibly be opposed to Creation
Science. And those are the only statements in that
particular book. Q. Would it present insurmountable
problems to prepare instructions for use with this teacher's
edition, Exhibit #10?
A. To prepare what?
Q. A supplement to be used with this teacher's edition?
A. For what purpose, to balance those ideas?
Q. Yeah, to balance these ideas out.
A. It would be possible to do that.
A. I might say since -- I think I need to say it is
that I do not think it would be appropriate or legitimate
science to do that.
Q. Okay. What's your next book? Is that Exhibit #6.
A. Next is Exhibit #6, "Holt Elementary Science."
Again, this is the elementary science program, grade
A. The first page is T-8.
A. At the top of the -- at the top of the page,
and I might mention for your information that the student,
the exact pge is in the student text that is found in
the teacher's text. You understand that don't you?
Q. I figured that out on the last book.
A. "Geologists call this movement continental drift.
They think that over many years the continents drifted
apart at a rate of one to ten centimeters a year." It
goes on to discuss that. But that would be the primary
thing, that the continents were once altogether and
drifted apart. And the rate of drift would be something
that would trigger Act 590. On the next page too --
Q. Why would that -- why would that trigger 590? A.
Well first of all, drifting at the rate of one to ten
centimeters, I haven't figured it up, I would imagine that
it's going to take quite a number of years for that. And
second of all, the fact that all the continents were once
together, as such. It's my opinion that this is not
something that would be one of the components of Creation
Q. The only thing that I could see that this would have
anything to do with would be age of the earth, under six.
Am I missing something?
A. That would -- that was the main reason I put it
Q. Okay. I'm sorry, go ahead.
A. The next page simply has the -- it's the same thing,
I just checked it. There is a little diagram showing
continental drift. The next page T-10, "The plate
tectonic theory has been proposed to explain continental
drift, I think would be a triggerer. Plate tectonics is
a slow process that would go along with the --
Q. Age concept?
A. Well, not only age, but the gradual uniform changes
in the earth.
Q. Okay. Okay.
Q. And that explains or is used to explain how such large
masses of land ie., the continents are able to drift apart?
A. The next one is really the same sort of thing.
It's on page T-13.
A. "Spreading of the sea floor is believed to be the
reason why the plates of the crust move. The continents
are carried along with the moving plates like in your
activity," it's just an extension of the thing I
A. On page T-23, "Look closely at this picture. It
shows a fossil of a sea animal that lived a long time ago.
This fossil was found in rocks that now are part of a
large mountain. How did a sea animal get to the top
of a mountain." I think that is a potential triggerer of
Q. Which part?
A. Well, the whole thing. "How did the fish get
to the top of the mountain"? If you'll notice, over --
maybe I should have marked that. My background of how to
deal with this would cause me to not include everything,
I guess. But on the lesson background right over to the
right of that, it talks about folded mountains folding
together, lifting of rocks, fault-block mountains, so
forth. So, the assumption is from the background
information given a teacher is that the gradual squeezing
together, and lifting, and fault-blocks, and so forth would
have raised the fish that would normally have been found in
the ocean, to an area on dry land which is at the top.
Q. I see how it could relate to item six, which is age
of the earth. But it also.
A. Well, if you'll go to the Creation Science part of
it, it talks about the relatively recent -- number five,
Q. Six. Okay. Five, I'm sorry.
A. Five, a worldwide flood. So.... Now, when I'm
thinking of these, I'm thinking of potential things that
could trigger Act 590. It's not only what the teacher
says, but the questions that it might generate in the
students, et cetera.
I can see very logical questions
when you deal with that and when the statement is that
this fish fossil is on top of the mountain, of the student
saying, "How did it get there?" And some of them might
say this, or some might say that. I can see that some of
them might say that there was a worldwide flood. I think
that this could generate something that could get into
the the area of necessitating some sort of balanced
treatment of ideas generated in class.
Q. It might relate to catastrophism, but I'm not sure
how it would relate to -- but it's five and six is where
you would see it relating. Okay. I'm sorry, go ahead. A.
On page T-33, it talks about erosion and over a long period
of time rivers can cut very deeply into rock. And then it
gives you a picture below that of the Grand Canyon, and
asks, "How do you think the Grand Canyon was formed?" I
think this would be a potential triggerer of Act 590 under
the age of the earth?
A. Number six. On page T-220, "Dinosaurs lived a long
time ago. They survived for over sixty million years.
Today there is not a single dinosaur alive. Have any
other living things disappeared from the earth?" That
would be same thing, the age of the earth.
A. The next book is Defendant's Exhibit #1, "Holt
Elementary Science." The course is elementary science.
The grade level is grade 5. On page T-238, in the
teacher's notes -- this lesson briefly describes
scientific theories about the origin of the universe.
And it goes on to state that there is going to be some
discussion about the Steady-State Theory, the Pulsating
Theory, and the Big-Bang theory. These would all -- I
presume would possibly come under number one as far as
Section 4A. Number one, sudden creation from nothing.
And number six, the age of the earth.
A. On page T-239, "However, the galaxy is millions of
light-years further away from earth than the
constellation." This is a potential triggerer under
Section 4A, number six, age of the earth.
Q. Okay where are you referring to all this
A. No, it's right here.
Q. However, the galaxies --
A. On the next page, T-240, there are a couple of of
things, there is one that's underlined. That's all
basically the same.
Q. What page are you on?
A. Is there something here that I didn't underline
Q. Rather than read all of this --
A. Okay. In the student part of it, all of the
information that is listed on page 240, I think would
possibly trigger Act 590 in that it talks about the
theories on how the universe originated. It states that
one theory suggests that the universe is at least ten
billion years old. Another theory states that the
universe explodes, comes together and explodes again about
once every eighty billion years.
A. Which, again, is concerned with the age of the
Q. Okay. That is item six.
A. Okay. In relation to Defendant's Exhibit #6, and
Defendant's Exhibit #1, would it pose any great
difficulty to make the materials available that would
give balanced treatment in those.
A. There is no problem in putting something together
that would give balanced treatment. But as I stated
before, I don't think it is appropriate, or
professionally, or even ethical in my mind to do so.
A. The next book is Defendant's Exhibit #4, "Holt
Elementary Science," elementary science course, grade
Q. Let me take a suggestion as we're going through
these. If they're marked ing the exhibit why don't we
just -- instead of reading them, just tell me which
section you think triggers these sections.
MR. KAPLAN: You go ahead. I'm going
to excuse myself for just a second, but go ahead.
A. On page T-54, the first paragraph of the student
edition would trigger, in my mind, Act 590.
Q. What section? I mean what number of 590?
A. The age of the earth. On page T-55, the teacher
background information, midway through that information
it says, "Ask: Do you know how long ago the dinosaurs
were on the earth?" The next two or three sentences that
are in black print, I think would trigger Act 590, under
the age of the earth. On page T -- on page T-92 under
lesson background information, all of the materials
that are underlined in the exhibit would under the
Section five, six, three, two, and one. I went through
that rather fast. But I believe those would be because
it talks about age of the earth. It talks about simple
forms of life appeared first, complex form laters, so
A. On page T-92, the student matter, the first two
sentences that are underlined in the exhibit talks
about the earth being millions of years old. That would
trigger it under part six, about the age of the earth.
On page T-93, there is a sentence that's underlined about
continental drift. I think that would trigger it under
section six and section five. On page T-94 there is
a statement that's underlined in the student edition, in the
exhibit, about the evolution of a horse, with diagrams. I
think this would trigger Act 590 under section six, under
section three, under section two, section one. On page
T-95, all of the printed material in the student part that's
underlined in the exhibit, it talks about the fossilization
of rocks in the Grand Canyon, that the lower layers contain
simple fossils and fossils of a more complex, higher animals
are found in the upper layers. And that simple forms of
life developed first and complex forms later. This would
trigger Act 590 under sections one, two, three, possibly
four although not directly, five, and six. It's really the
same thing -- the same parts that would be triggered on page
T-96 in the teacher matter at the bottom of the paper. It's
simply a summary of what I've talked about on the previous
couple of pages. On pate T-97 under lesson background
information; it talks about index fossils, it talks about
radioactive dating, methods that have been used to determine
the age of rocks. I think this would trigger Act 590 under
section six on the age of the earth. On page T-98, in the
student edition, there are a few sentences underlined in the
exhibit that deal with indexed fossils of strange animals
that lived 225 to 600 million years ago. This would trigger
it under section six on the age of the earth. The next page
is T-99. The very first sentence in the student edition
states that dinosaurs were on the earth from 70 million to
225 million years ago. That would trigger Act 590 under
section six, age of the earth. On page T-100 there is a
paragraph near the bottom of the student part of the page
that talks about rocks being 4.5 billion years ago. That
would be -- trigger Act 590 under section six, age of the
earth. On page T-102 -- first of all, although this is not
underlined in the exhibit, the teacher background
information refers to 4.6 billion years, 70 million, that
whole section talks about the age of the earth.
Q. Which has been marked beside of it in blue.
A. Okay. The other part in the student matter talks
about dinosaurs living on the earth 70 million to 225
million years ago, and trilobites from 225 to 60 million
years ago is underlined in the student edition. Age of
the earth would be the part that it deals about. On page
T-103 there's several portions, they're all underlined
in the exhibit. They talk again about 70 million years,
230 million years. That part is age of the earth.
However, the sentence on the bottom of the page that's
also underlined, "most geologists agree that the first forms
of life on earth developed during this period of the earth's
past," which would trigger one, two, three, five, six.
Q. Excuse me. Who would you consider the best science
textbook publishing companies in the country, the best
A. I can't say who the best three are. I can indicate
that as far as biology is concerned, Modern Biology that's
published by Holt, Rinehart & Winston is a leading seller.
I'm not even aware who the second best seller or third
best seller are in --
Q. What about in chemistry?
A. I can't say.
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay. Go ahead, I'm sorry.
A. On page T-104, practically all the information
in the student book is underlined in the exhibit. It
talks about continental drift. It talks about water and
the warm oceans being filled with fairly simply forms of
animals, as time went on the first fish appeared as
sort of an evolutionary sequence dealt with there. That
would trigger section one, two, three, potentially
four, five, and six. At the bottom of the page, on T-104,
there is another statement that talks about the Mesozoic
Age being the age of the great reptiles of the dinosaurs.
That would be concerned with all of those same sections that
I indicated a minute ago. On page T-105, the underlined
material in the exhibit is about the Cenozic Age became
known as the age of the mammals. It has a list of certain
mammals that appeared on earth, and it includes humans
during that time. I think that would potentially trigger
all six parts of the Section 4A. On page T-106 is simply a
little chart that indicates the events in the history of the
life -- Events in the history of life. There's a little
arrow drawn in the exhibit pointing to that. And it's
simply a method of using, in this case, a long piece of
adding machine tape to mark off the different events during
the history of the earth, such as the first appearance of
amphibians, et cetera. I think this would potentially
trigger all six components in Section 4A. On page T-107
there's a statement in the little box called main ideas,
that's underlined, that simply states the earth -- it's
believed the earth is 4.6 billion years old. I didn't
underline the bottom part, but really all of that section,
it talks about "evidence indicates that within each major
time period changes led to the development of new forms of
Q. What would that trigger?
A. I think the development of new forms of life and the
age that's indicated there would trigger all six parts of
Q. How would it trigger catastrophism under five?
A. Well, it may not deal as directly with that as
it does some of the other ones, but it indicates that
there was a gradual process during which new forms of
life developed over a period of 4.6 billion years. And
to some degree it might -- if catastrophism was indicated
there, including the occurrence of a worldwide flood,
it seems that all of these forms of life would have been
wiped out at that time.
Q. Okay. I understand.
A. On page T-222, underlined in the exhibit is a
statement about oil and natural gas being derived from
the bodies of microscopic animals that lived many
millions of years ago. That would trigger number six
under Section 4A.
A. On page T-259 is a chart, that's indicated with a
little circle and a blue arrow, that has a time scale
that goes back to four billion years ago, and has people
living -- well, I'm sorry. I'm in error. The four billion
is the number of people, not the number of years ago. It
goes back to -- I believe I was in error when I read this.
That's not a triggerer. I thought it was years and it's
people, that wouldn't be one.
Q. Okay. Would there be any problem with providing
balanced treatment in Defendant's Exhibit #4?
A. Yes, I think there would be a trouble in providing
balanced treatment in all of them. As far as, is it
possible to give them some sort of information that
would tend to balance this, I think that that could be
accomplished. Again, I think it would be unprofessional
and unethical, as a science educator, to do such.
A. The next book is Defendant's Exhibit #2. The name
of the book is "Life Science," published by Silver
Burdett. The course time is "Life Science," and the
grade level is 7. On the front matter, table of
contents, page -- VI, although it's not that clear
lable in the book with some marks, is the sequence of
chapters which would indicate to most teachers, to
me, and to many students some phylogenetic arrangement
of chapters. It starts out with, Sponges and
Coelenterates and works up in manner that's accepted to
people that subscribe to the Theory of Evolution, and
evolutionary sequence going from simple to animals
up to more complex ones. the vertebrates. That could
trigger, in Section 4A, number one, number two, number
three, number four, number five, and number six. On page
228 at the last three sentences on that page, it mentioned
that fish fossils are the oldest of all vertebrate fossils.
Biologists think fish were the first animals and the
ancestors of all other vertebrates.
Q. With your permission, I'm going to put page 228 on
this exhibit because it doesn't appear on this copy.
A. Okay. I think that would trigger all six parts
of Section 4A.
Q. What about page 229? No, I'm sorry you're right.
A. On page 302, and it's not marked, but the
inscription under the photograph on that page talks about
coal being formed from large forrests that existed
millions of years ago. That part of it would trigger
section six, age of the earth. Or part six under section
4A. The student matter on that page is basically
the same thing there, it is underlined and it would
trigger age of the earth, part six of section 4A.
Q. Could balanced material be made available for
Defendant's Exhibit #2?
A. As on the other ones, some sort of material could
be put together that might balance that. I don't think
that any legitimate scientific material could be put
A. The next book is Defendant's Exhibit #3. The name
of the book is "Physical Science," published by Silver
Burdett. The course name is "Physical Science." The
grade level is 8. And I think there are two parts of
this that might come into play under Act 590. The first
one is on page 191. Well, I notice that has page 190. I
might mention on some of these pages I didn't underline
every single thing, I just picked out the gist of it.
These couple of pages though are dealing with methods of
dating fossils and rocks and so forth. The part that
I underlined on page 191 is talking about uranium dating
and mentions a method that's been used to date rocks that
are 4.6 billion years old. That would be age of the
earth, part six, Section 4A. The other excerpt is
on page 292 under "fossil fuels." It's underlined in
the exhibit, fossil fuels formed from plants and animals
that died millions of years ago. Section -- part six,
Q. Could that be balanced out in Defendant's Exhibit
A. You could give the students, again, something
that would balance that. But I don't think you could
give them anything legitimate in the scientific sense
that would balance it.
The next book is Defendant's Exhibit
#5. The name of the book is "Focus On Earth Science,"
published by Merrill. The course name is "Earth Science."
The grade level is 9. The first page is page four. The
information is underlined in the exhibit. It talks about
theories, about the origin of the universe, the Big-Bang
Theory. I think most -- most of the front information,
since this is "Earth Science" rather than "Live Science" is
going to primarily deal with the age of the earth and part
five, catastrophism as this particular page number reference
does. On page 15 there is a section that's underlined in
the exhibit that deals with a formation of infant stars
and that they're still being formed at the current time.
That would be age of the earth, section six. On page 19,
underlined in the exhibit, is talking about a galaxy that's
2,200,000 light-years from earth. That would trigger part
six of Section 4A. On page 27, underlined in the exhibit,
are some ideas or some different theories about the origin
of the solar system and the earth, the near-collision
hypothesis, the Kant-Laplace hypothesis. And on page 28, the
third of those, the modern dust cloud theory. These would
all trigger section six and probably number five, too. On
page 151 there is a discussion, a brief discussion of
uniformitarianism, which would certainly trigger section --
part five of Section 4A. On page 163, underlined in the
exhibit, a statement about rocks being 3.77 to 3.75 billion
years old, which would be age of the earth part six under
Section 4A. On page 222 -- did I miss a page?
Q. I've got something here on the missing link to
A. Oh yeah, the front of that.
Q. What page is that?
A. That's not part of it.
A. On page 222 underlined, it talks about glaciers
and the ice ages, and talks about the earliest known ice
age sixty million years ago, et cetera. That would
trigger under age of the earth, part six, section 4A. On
page 267 there are a couple of things. There is a little
statement that's underlined, first of all, that indicates
age of the dinosaurs over sixty million years ago. That
would be section six. It talks about the pterosaurs,
flying reptiles. And that, although not directly,
could potentially trigger some of the other sections
on -- well, section one, two, three, four, and five,
although the main -- main part of that, it would be
section six on age of the earth. There's another little
statement at the bottom of that page, "The rock is
firsthand evidence that the earth is still in the process
of evolving." That would be part five, one -- part one
and five. The next page is 277, age of the earth. The
parts underlined in the book are in the exhibit. And the
next page is 289. There are several passages that are
underlined in the exhibit that talk about continental drift,
glacial deposits in South America and Africa 250 million
years ago, and another reference to 250 million years ago.
So, this would all be age of the earth, section six. The
next, page 290, simply as a diagram of continental drift,
which would be -- And on the figure that explains this, it
gives reference to 200 million years ago. Age of the earth
is what that would trigger. The next page, there's another
statement that -- about 200 million years ago. That would
be age of the earth. There is another statement up above it
that I didn't underline about a fossil of a small
hippopotamus like reptile. I don't know if that necessarily
would trigger anything, but it might trigger all components
of this. The next page is 301, age of the earth. It's
underlined in the exhibit. On page 305 it talks about the
geologic column, that part is underlined in the book. That
would trigger age of the earth, to some extent the other
ones in that the geologic column, the sequence of life is
judged by the appearance of fossils in the geologic column.
On page 308 -- I think that page was inadvertently left
out. We can make a copy of that page and give it to you. It
talks about --
Q. Just read what it says in total.
A. On page 308, in the student material, small
differences among individuals may lead, gradually, to the
development of a new species. There appear to be several
reasons why species change. And there's some assorted
things that go with that, but those are the main key
A. Also in the teacher matter in the left hand column
in small print, there is a statement that "The
fundamental unit of classification for organism is the
species. In geologic time species overlap, and species
boundries are difficult to draw. Groups of species with
similar characteristics belong to the same genus.
Every organism has a two named designation with the
genus named first and the species named second." And it
talks about species -- this is not in the book, this is
my opinion of how it would trigger Act 590. It talks
about species overlapping in time. I think that would
pretty well trigger all parts of Section 4A, as would
the part in the student book about individuals gradually
changing into new species. I know what they did. On page
310 is a discussion of some of the key words, and sentences
are underlined in the exhibit, on mutations, changes in
plants and animals over time, algae being one of the
earliest plant like organisms, much simpler than trees. I
think that could potentially trigger all six parts of
Section 4A. The next page is fairly similar. It talks
about index fossils, and this information is underlined in
the exhibit. Index fossils are used to divide geologic time
into units, the age of fossils is found by their position in
the rock beds, and there are a few other things there. This
would trigger, I think, all six parts of Section 4A. There
is a little statement that's underlined on page 312 about
index fossils. The best ones are those that are widely
disbursed and that have evolved rapidly. That would
potentially trigger all six parts of Section 4A. The next
page is 314. It has a multiple choice question for the
student there about the age of the earth and the three
choices are, "2.7, 3, 4.5." That would trigger the age of
the earth. It talks about index fossil, down at the bottom
that's underlined in the exhibit, a species, fossil species
abundant over a period of 40 million years by useful as an
index fossil. I think that could potentially trigger all
six parts, primarily, the age of the earth. On page 317,
there are several things underlined that talk about the
geological time periods. It lists 600 million years a
couple of time here. So, that would trigger the age of the
earth. On page 318 is a chart, geologic time scale, that
would trigger all six parts of Section 4A. On page 319, in
the teacher comments, is something about dates over two
billion years old. That would trigger the age of the
earth. On page 320 is a statement that's underlined in the
exhibit about 600 million years ago. And also, that part is
found in a discussion of the geologic time periods. That
would trigger all six parts of 4A, specifically part six, on
the age of the earth. On page 322, are several statements
about marine invertebrates being the earliest none animals
and trilobites being related distinctly to crabs and
lobsters. That would potentially trigger all six parts on
Section 4A. The next part on page 323, underlined the --
underlined in -- there is a little mark over on the side to
indicate that really all of the information on this page is
included. It simply talks about when land plants first
appeared some animals moved to the land, the change from
marine to land animals began, fish were the first animals,
back boned animals, amphibians came on later, and so forth
and so on. That would trigger all six parts of Section 4A.
On page 324 is a discussion of plate tectonics, and also the
evolution of plants and animals that could possibly trigger
all six parts of section six, 4A. On page 325, all of the
information on that page again is dealing with the geologic
time periods and the animals that appeared, and developed,
and dominated during those different periods. That could
potentially trigger all six parts of Section 4A. On page
326 there is a mark in the exhibit indicating all of that
page. Again, it talks about the evolution of animals and
plants during geologic time periods. That could trigger all
six parts of section 4A.
Page 327 is simply a continuation of the previous couple
of pages. The entire page is marked in the exhibit.
And it could trigger all six parts of Section 4A. I
might also mention on page 327, that there's a little
figure on the side of the page that gives a diagram of
a generalized reptile and a generalized primitive mammal
that compares those two. That again could possibly
trigger all six parts of Section 4A.
Q. Could I see your book on that, I'm not sure about
it? Keep going.
A. On page 329 is a statement that's underlined
concerning the fact that animals did not follow the same
line of development on two separate continents. That could
potentially trigger all six parts of Section 4A. Part 330,
there is nothing on the page indicating, but the entire
page, as now marked off, indicates age of the earth. It has
some things about 65 million years ago. Let's just call it
the bottom printed part of the page. I think the top part
may too, but I would have to refer to other material to
determine that. On page 331, underlined in the exhibit, is
something about primitive man, pro Cro-Magnon man living in
southern Europe from 5,000 to 35,000 years B.C. That could
potentially trigger all six parts of Section 4A. On page
484 there is a statement that's underlined in the exhibit
about fossil fuels being formed millions of years ago on the
earth's crust, which could potentially trigger all six
sections in -- all six parts of Section 4A.
Q. How would it trigger four? On page 448.
A. Well first of all, let me admit that I'm not
examining each one of these. I'm just giving you an
overall view. So, let me think about it for a minute.
Fossil fuels are formed from plants and animals that lived
millions of years ago. I don't think it would trigger
section four. Would primarily trigger section A, could
trigger section one, potentially section two, section
three, and section six.
Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions. Do you
anticipate that -- Phil, maybe you can help us. Do you
anticipate that these textbooks will be submitted as
exhibits themselves, as marked.
MR. KAPLAN: The pages will, only those
portions which we believe will trigger Act 590, in
accordance with the Judge's earlier feelings that he
would not want to read an entire textbook. We will
submit only those pages which we believe are likely to
trigger the Act. We will also probably not do that
with every witness who has ever referred to a textbook
It will be primarily Wood, and Glasgow, and Coward,
I think, rather than go through it with every single
witness. We'll just do it primarily with those three
MR. CHILDS: Well, just assuming that,
which one do you intend to use first, if you can tell
MR. KAPLAN: I have no idea right now.
MR. CHILDS: Well, if Judge Overton
said you were only going to be able to do that with one,
who would it be?
MR. KAPLAN: In all likelihood, right
now it would probably be Roger -- I mean, Dennis, but my
feeling is that we will probably, under 901, put all of
the books in the self authentication provision.
MR. CHILDS: Okay. And then also just
putting in just copies of the pages?
MR. KAPLAN: That's correct. And then
if you wanted to put in copies of other parts of the
book, you could.
WITNESS: I might say, if we are off
the record that --
MR. KAPLAN: We're on the record.
MR. CHILDS: We can go off the record
if you want to. Or you can just say it on the record.
WITNESS: I can say it on the record.
The next three books that I'm going to be dealing with,
regular biology that's taught at the 10th grade and a
couple of different books that we use for advanced biology,
almost the entire book, in my opinion, will trigger. And
it's going to be rather time consuming to --
MR. CHILDS: It will get laborious.
WITNESS: Well, if we go through every
single instance it would be impossible. It would take us
several weeks to do that. I can refer to chapters
and give an overview of the chapter or whatever you
want to do.
MR. KAPLAN: The reason is, for
example, in Biology Today, but Kirk, there is --
where says it. Page 18, "after a lenthy discussion,
that is why the principle of evolution is the major
unifying theme of this book. This book happens to
be a thousand pages in length. The same is probably true
of Biology Second Edition, Addison-Wesley.
WITNESS: That's why I say that it's
substantially, on these biology books, substantially
the entire book. Not on every page, but it's quite
BY MR. CHILDS:
Q. Okay. In reference to Defendant's Exhibit 5,
which is the book that we just finished, could balanced
treatment be provided for that book?
A. As I've said earlier, something could be put
together that would balance it on the surface. I don't,
again, feel like that would be appropriate or that
there is any legitimate scientific information that could
Q. Is that also true for Defendant's Exhibit 9,
Defendant's Exhibit 8, and Defendant's Exhibit 7?
A. Yes, that would be true for all of those.
Q. Okay. Okay. Now then, I gave you a card earlier
which has some information printed on it -- well, written
on it which says, "Material should never be excluded
or removed simply because it expresses unpopular or
controversial views or because it coincides with
particular religious views. And I want to ask you if --
if you agree or disagree with that statement.
A. I just -- I may need some water in a minute. I
generally agree with that. It's very difficult for me to
totally agree with anything that has the word "never" in
Q. Well, if -- do you think that some unpopular
or controversial views -- or material containing unpopular
or controversial view should, on some occasions, be
excluded or removed?
A. I would say that I think that it would be a very rare
situation that they would be removed. To sort of clarify my
thinking on it just a bit. The value of different sorts of
information in a course vary. And if the information is
important information that's necessary and that represents
the main line of thinking in a particular subject area,
then I don't feel that it should be removed or excluded
simply because it was unpopular, controversial, or it
coincided with particular religious views if that material
is appropriate for the students at that level. If the
material is not important or necessary for that course, or
if it is not appropriate for the developmental level of the
student, or it's beyond their comprehension or something,
then I think that it possibly could be.
Q. Possibly could be what?
A. Could possibly be excluded or removed if the material
is marginal material anyway. You know, you have X
amount of -- well, in any course you have entirely more
material than can possibly be covered in a given year.
Some of that material is very important material. It
develops major generalizations and concepts within the
course. The important material, I don't think should be
excluded or removed simply because it is controversial
or unpopular or coincides with particular religious
views. I think if the material is not necessary to
develop important generalizations and concepts in the
course, that some of that fringe material or background
material that's used in a supportive role, if it's very
unpopular or controversial or coincides with particular
religious views, in that case I can see or I can think in
my mind -- if it's not really important for the course
that it should be excluded, but not --
Q. Okay. Who -- go head.
A. -- if it's important information and an important
part of that particular discipline?
Q. Okay. Who is qualified to make the decision
on whether it's important or not?
A. Well, there would be several people that would be
qualified. First of all, I don't think -- I said this a
minute ago. I think I touched on it. It should be
appropriate material for that particular course. Now,
who would determine if the material is appropriate for a
given course would probably be a committee of teachers.
On occasion it might be myself as science supervisor or
some other person in the administration. I don't
necessarily think that in earth -- or in the chemistry
that you need to teach things that are found in biology,
or something of that sort. So, that sort of thing, it
might be a committee of teachers or someone in the
administration. As far as smaller tidbits of information,
et cetera, that could normally be included within the
course description, and the goals, and objectives for a
particular course, it's up to the individual teacher in
my mind to make that decision.
Q. Okay. I've also given you a opportunity to look at
page 224 from the N.E.A. handbook for 1980-'81. I'm
referring you to D3 on academic freedom. And I'm going to
ask you if you've had a chance to read that.
A. I have.
Q. Do you agree or disagree with that position?
A. As I read it a minute ago, I agreed with it. I'm
quickly scanning through it again.
Q. To make sure the Defendant's counsel hasn't --
A. The statement, taking as a whole, I agree with.
Q. Is there any part of it that you disagree with.
A. No, not taken as a whole.
Q. Okay. What academic freedom do you have or is
available to the classroom teacher in the Little Rock public
A. The right or the responsibility, the freedom to,
within the confines of the goals and objectives and the
course outline for a given course; and within the
confines of a -- the matter normally considered in a
particular discipline, the teacher has the freedom to
make judgments regarding two things. First of all,
content to be included and excluded. And second of all,
methods to be used in presenting the content.
Q. Does anybody else have any say so on content?
A. Well as far as content, that would normally be
included within a given course, it's up to the individual
teacher. As far as including -- as far as determining
what content, the overall types of content that are --
should be included in a given course, other people as I
Q. Ya'll have some sort of curriculum guide?
Q. And how is that developed?
A. A curriculum guide is is developed by a committee
of teachers, and myself or previous people who were in
my position. There is usually a representative from
each school that's involved. And normally a week or two
weeks or sometimes three weeks during the summer is spent
Q. Well, what affect does it have on the individual
classroom teacher's academic freedom?
A. The curriculum guide as implemented in Little Rock
outlines those things that the committee, and in affect
the school district even though the board doesn't have to
approve such things and the administration usually doesn't
look at them, but in the mind of those people, the
important things that should be covered during that
course. It is not really that restrictive of the
academic freedom of the teachers, in that I don't think
there is any expectation that teachers can only cover
what's in the curriculum guide. I don't think that
was ever the intent. The curriculum guide is to serve as a
guide for things that are important for students to
know in that particular course.
Q. Well, are they -- I understand it as a guide.
And my question is, can a classroom science teacher
safely ignore the guide in it's entirety?
A. Well, my answer to that is not based upon experience
because we've never had a teacher who has ignored the
guide. My answer is, yes, that the there would be some
severe problems for the teacher if they totally ignored the
Q. So, it's not strictly what the individual classroom
teacher wants in the contents of the course that matter?
Q. Okay. Does the school board ever make any
indications that it wants particular subject matter
covered in the schools?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Could they?
A. I'm not sure. I presume that they could.
Q. What about principals, high school principals?
A. I doubt that they have that authority.
Q. You want to take a short break?
Q. What about the legislature?
A. I kind of forgot the question. Do they have
Q. Uh-huh. To indicate to the classroom teacher
subject matter content. And I don't want to leave the
Governor out, the legislature and the Governor?
A. My opinion -- first of all, legally, I don't know I
can't say. As far as I'm concerned, the legislature, the
-- you didn't say state in general, Department of
Education, I don't know whether you meant them or not.
Over the specific content say at that time might be included
within a biology course, I don't think that they should have
any say so about that.
Q. What about the State Board of Education as to
A. As far as content within a particular course, I
don't think they should have any affect. And to my
knowledge, they don't have any affect.
A. Now, they do -- if I may carry on. They do, for
the purpose of accrediting the school, require that
certain courses be offered. I mean you have to offer X
number of units of English, and X number of units of math,
and X number of units of science, et cetera in order to
get a certain accreditdation. But as far as them
determining specific day to day content within a given
course, I'm not aware that that's a practice or even
that that's ever occurred.
Q. And the State Board has an indirect affect on
classroom subject matter content in that they have
approved lists of textbooks?
Q. Is there any other indirect affect as to course
content, subject matter content. A. Well, the -- I don't
know about all areas, but in science I don't think it's
up to date. It's several years ago old. There is guidelines
-- some sort of guidelines booklet for science that has a
listing of concepts, et cetera. That is not, to my
knowledge, and certainly in practice, not any sort of a
dictate to the schools. It's just simply from the State
Department level that indicates to the schools. This is
sort of a model science curriculum or something. And it's
offered there for our use in developing our own curricular,
Q. It's not any kind of a requirement?
Q. Okay. Are you familiar with CARE?
A. With care, is that an acronym?
Q. For Coalition Advocating Responsible Education.
A. No, I'm not.
Q. Let me read you some names and ask you if you know
any of these people. Pat Bennett?
Q. Ermalee Boice?
Q. Connie Bond?
Q. Ed Bullington?
A. I've heard of him.
Q. Earl Carter?
Q. Bob Cearley?
A. I think I know him.
Q. Sheryl Dunn?
Q. Gene Jones?
A. I've heard of him.
Q. Robbie Keopple?
Q. Bettye Kerns?
Q. Bobby Lester?
A. I've heard of him.
Q. Gene Manfredini?
Q. Harold Measel?
Q. How do you know Harold?
A. Harold is in the administration of the Pulaski
County schools. Assistant superintendent, or something.
Q. John Purtle?
A. I'm not sure, the name sounds familiar.
Q. Justice John Purtle?
A. I've heard of him.
Q. Frank Smith?
Q. Karl Steinkraus?
Q. Fred Williams?
Q. Mike Wilson?
A. Heard of him.
Q. Are you aware of any move within the Little Rock
school system to have a policy on academic responsibility
or academic freedom adopted by the Little Rock School
A. No, I'm not.
Q. Has any -- are you aware of any research which has
shown any use for the appendix in the human body?
Q. And have you done any research or read any articles
which set out the mathematical probabilities of the
evolution of life from non-life?
A. I have.
Q. And what are those calculations?
A. I don't know.
Q. Where did you see them?
A. I can't identify the source specifically, but
I think it was from one of the Creation Science
publications from some of the research institutes in
Q. Could you give me any information that would help me
A. No, I can't.
Q. Are you -- have you been given a list of the
documents that we wanted you to produce?
Q. Are there any documents on this list that you have in
your possession, custody, or control?
Q. Okay. And what are those documents.
A. That thing with the little clip on it.
Q. What in the Phi Delta Kappan were you referring
A. On page 95 there is an article By Harvey Seigle,
"Creationism, Evolution and Education; the California
fiasco. On page 98 there is an article by Thomas J.
Flygrae entitled "The Case Of Seagraves vs. The State
MR. KAPLAN: Spell Flygrae's last name.
Q. Okay. Let me have that magazine back, please.
There is a letter here dated April 28th, 1981 from Dr.
Richard B. Bliss, director of curricular development,
Institute of Creation Research where he indicates
that he met with you. When did you meet with Dr. Bliss?
A. I don't recall. Probably -- I think he was very
prompt in sending the letter. I think it was probably is
a week or two prior to the letter.
Q. Okay. What happened a week or two prior to the
letter that you met Dr. Bliss?
A. Ed Gran, from U.A.L.R. called me on the phone
and -- as I recall it was Ed, and said that Bliss was going
to be in town and would I mind meeting with him. And I said,
"no, I wouldn't mind." And -- consequently, the next day or
the next week, I don't remember what it was, but whenever
the day was that he was going to be there that I would say
that I would meet with him, Bliss and Ed Gran couldn't come.
Someone else came, I don't even remember who it is. I
think it was -- well, I don't even know. I thought it was
someone else from U.L.A.R., but I'm not sure, brought Bliss
by. And we sat down and chatted for maybe an hour.
Q. Who is Ed Gran?
A. Ed Gran is an instructor at U.A.L.R. in the Physics
Department, I believe.
Q. Is he a creationist?
Q. How long have you known Mr. Gran.
A. I believe when he called me was -- I think I'd
heard of him before, but --
Q. He called you up out of the blue, basically?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Are you a member of the Phi Delta Kappa.
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. There is a set of documents here, the first
sheet appears at the top "Creation Unit." Can you tell
me what these documents are?
A. This is a rough draft of a unit that was put
together at the direction of the Pulaski County School
Q. Where did you get that?
A. I believe Marianne Wilson gave that to me.
Q. What was the occasion for you getting that from Ms.
A. I called her as I -- I don't know whether I called
her or not, but I contacted her. I don't remember when
it was, early last summer I think. Shortly after -- a
couple of months after Act 590 had been signed by the
Governor. And as the person primarily responsible for
organizing or coordinating curriclum development in Little
Rock and knowing that Act 590 had been passed, I gave
her a call asking her if she had any materials on
Creation Science, and she did. And I borrowed that
material from her. And at the same time she gave me a
copy of this.
A. The -- I've known previously that the unit was being
developed because I teach out at U.A.L.R. at night. And
-- I know him very well, I can't think of his name now.
I'll probably grab it in the minute. One of the faculty
members on the staff out at U.A.L.R. served as a
consultant to Marianne Wilson during the development of
this. And he said that -- had mentioned to me on a
couple of occasions that he was working with her. So, I
may have asked her. I don't recall whether I asked
if she had anything on paper regarding that or whether he
volunteered it. But anyway, I secured it at the same
time I borrowed the books from her.
Q. Which you've previously told me about?
Q. Okay. Okay. Can I have that back, please? did
Dr. Krain, that's K-r-a-i-n, send you an article entitled
"The 'Creation Science' Controversy in Arkansas: A
Struggle For The Control Of The Science Classrooms."
A. He did.
Q. What would you say is the basic gist of Dr.
Krain's article, or paper? I guess it would be more
accurately described as a paper.
A. Well, I haven't read it in sometime, but I think
the overall approach is one from the philosophical
standpoint of science and religion and so forth. I
don't remember very many specifics. I can say that
the overall emphasis of his was in favor of -- in favor
of Evolution being taught in the classroom and against
the inclusion of Creation Science material.
Q. Okay. And there is an article you've also provided
us with a, three column article entitled "When It Becomes
Science, Teach It." And it appears in the lower right
corner, June 5, 1981. And it appears to be a letter to
the editor of the Arkansas Gazette, is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. And this is an article that -- a letter that
you sent for publication to the Gazette?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Does this letter accurately state what you believe?
A. Yes, it does. I might add, as a matter of
clarification on the letter, I don't know whether everyone
that reads it could detect a little tongue in cheek
comments on the last part. In the letter, I said that I
would recommend that if Act 590 survives, that balanced
treatment be given. I stated, I'm sure somewhere
earlier, that there was no accurate definition in Act 590
that I could find exactly what balanced treatment was
and that could be interpreted many different ways.
And I suggested that my interpretation would be balanced
according to the relative weight or percentage of
scientists that accept Evolution vs. those accept
Creation Science, with the inference being that in the
scientific community very few would accept Creation
Science, thus you could balance it by dealing with
creation science to a very small extent.
Q. One one hundreth of 1% of the time.
A. Something like that.
Q. And that was a -- meant tongue and cheek?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Okay. Anything else in here that can't be
interpreted the way it's written?
Q. You've also presented us with a copy of the of an
article by Stephen J. Gool from "Discover," which apparently
is a magazine, May 1981 entitled "Evolution As Fact And
Theory." I'd like to ask you how you came to have this
A. As I mentioned before, I teach out at U.A.L.R. at
night. And I thought of the man's name, Bill Bowen who's
a professor of Botany at U.A.L.R. was the consultant
to Marianne Wilson and others. I'm not sure exactly who
all the others are regarding the development of the
Creation Unit. And I've had a chance for a few minutes --
he's usually leaving when I'm going out to teach at
night. And we've talk about it on several occasions and
he offered that to me. I think it was right after I'd
met with Bliss or something. I don't recall the exact
circumstances, but that's where I got it.
Q. Okay. What do you teach out at U.A.L.R.?
A. Principles of biology.
Q. And what level course --
A. Freshman course.
Q. I'm going to hand you these papers and ask you if --
if they are in order or just tell me what they are.
They don't seem to be in any particular order.
A. Well, these -- Richard Bliss, when I met with
him that one time, which is the only time I've met
with him that I know of, was giving a workshop. I
believe at Conway, is that where Arkansas Baptist
College, some --
Q. Central Baptist College?
A. -- college in Conway, that particular weekend and
I wasn't able to attend the workshop. And I asked him if
he had any information on what he was presenting during
the workshop, and he did. And he gave it to me and
I made a copy of it, and that's what this is.
Q. Are you a member of the A.C.L.U.?
A. I'm not.
Q. Did you get a letter from the A.C.L.U. soliciting
A. I did.
Q. Okay. And did you also get a pamphlet from the
American Civil Liberties Union entitled "Guardian of
A. I don't recall getting that.
Q. Would you take a look at this letter which has been
marked as Defendant's Exhibit #1 to Wood's deposition?
Q. That the form -- does that a appear to be the same
kind of letter that you got?
A. It does.
Q. Okay. Do you know how they got your name?
A. I do not.
Q. Okay. Okay. Are there any other documents in your
possession, or your custody, or within your control which
would relate directly or indirectly to any of the twenty