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On Paul Nelson Day 2014: The Target Problem

Thanks to P.Z. Myers's annual lampoon of me, I've thought more deeply about the relationship between development and evolution than I ever expected to do. Paul Nelson http://www.discovery.org/p/45
Categories: Anti-Science News

With Enceladus the Toast of the Solar System, Here's a Wrap-Up of the Origin-of-Life Problem

In order to discuss origins of life in a science-based way, we must begin by acknowledging that intelligence is an inextricable part of the account. Denyse O'Leary
Categories: Anti-Science News

BIO-Complexity Paper: Why Chaitin's Mathematical "Proof" of Darwinian Evolution Fails

There are many reasons why Chaitin's model does not accurately reflect how Darwinian evolution works, if it does work, in the real world. Casey Luskin http://www.discovery.org/p/188
Categories: Anti-Science News

At Pensmore Dialogue on Science and Faith, a Huge and Very Enthusiastic Crowd Greets Meyer, Lennox, Richards

Jay Richards kicked off the conference with a talk on why science matters, or should matter, to people of faith. Donald McLaughlin http://www.discovery.org/p/611
Categories: Anti-Science News

Myth-Making Aside, Eugenics Was a Mostly Progressive Enterprise

I have often stated that biologist/eugenicist Charles Davenport was one of the great villains of American history. Wesley J. Smith http://www.nationalreview.com/human-exceptionalism
Categories: Anti-Science News

Junk DNA Is a FANTOM Disappearing Act

A new atlas of gene promoter sites shows widespread gene transcription and tissue-specific functions that further erode the junk-DNA myth. Evolution News & Views
Categories: Anti-Science News

Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Tue, 2014-04-08 11:35
Post by BillB
Quote (Ptaylor @ April 08 2014,01:55)Sal Cordova really should have seen this coming. In posting a thread titled 'Questions college students should ask science professors' he should have anticipated:
1. Someone (i.e. Roy) might actually answer his questions
2. UD regulars (in this case Barb) would use it to go into full Big Daddy? mode, suggesting more questions. Sample:
Question: What takes greater faith—to believe that the millions of intricately coordinated parts of a cell arose by chance or to believe that the cell is the product of an intelligent mind?

I can just see that atheist materialist darwinist professor withering under an onslaught like that.
UD link
I LOL'd
Quote 13. I’ll consider it if it happens. Until then, it’s no more a problem for science than asking “What if Moses returns and she’s female and tells the world that the Bible was written by a drunken con-artist with diarrhoea?” is a problem for religion.
Categories: AE Public BB

Board Mechanics

AE Public Forum - Tue, 2014-04-08 09:19
Post by Quack
I don't know if I am the only one experiencing this problem but some threads, like the Uncommonly Dense opens ok, but I can't get the Joe G or Young Cosmos threads to open.
Categories: AE Public BB

A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Tue, 2014-04-08 07:16
Post by N.Wells
Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 07 2014,22:23)Offer a better wording that does not leave out required qualifiers including "image" and "likeness" otherwise I have to stay with what I now have for a first sentence.

Even though (to some) the grammar agreement seems wrong that's the way it is where "trinity" of science and religion exists in a sentence. At that point it's to early to mention the trinity from multiple intelligent causation events, otherwise gets wrongly operationally defined as more than one event, but it's there causing the sentence to seem out of place to those who are new to the concept of "Trinity".

Genesis scripture/theory ends up operationally defining our creator in plural form, where singular is expected, which can at first seem wrong but that's what I ended up having to explain for scientific theory.

There is no real grammar agreement problem. That's simply the way it is, in modern religion too.

You're only wasting your time and mine, trying to make it appear that what many in theology and elsewhere would expect to happen to sentence structure by properly scientifically operationally defining the "intelligent cause" part of the process.

There is also the challenge for all from Planet Source Code and other things that cannot be argued away, which are now done and in the past. Arguing semantics will not make that go away.
1) Already did: just add "or".    
"... each in its own image or likeness."

2) To everyone (but you, and you're wrong) the grammar is wrong.  It has to be, "each in its own..."  And that's "too".  Your whole trinity argument is irrelevant at this point, so why bring it up here?  The reader can only process what you have written, not what you are thinking and not mentioning.

3) (All the rest of your last round of comments.)  BS.  Your writing is truly crappy, and cannot be followed without a lot of guessing about your intentions, which means that you are effectively NEVER getting your point across.  This isn't semantics or me disagreeing with you about science or you being clever about theology - this is just you not knowing how to write a comprehensible sentence.
Categories: AE Public BB

A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Tue, 2014-04-08 03:23
Post by GaryGaulin
Offer a better wording that does not leave out required qualifiers including "image" and "likeness" otherwise I have to stay with what I now have for a first sentence.

Even though (to some) the grammar agreement seems wrong that's the way it is where "trinity" of science and religion exists in a sentence. At that point it's to early to mention the trinity from multiple intelligent causation events, otherwise gets wrongly operationally defined as more than one event, but it's there causing the sentence to seem out of place to those who are new to the concept of "Trinity".

Genesis scripture/theory ends up operationally defining our creator in plural form, where singular is expected, which can at first seem wrong but that's what I ended up having to explain for scientific theory.

There is no real grammar agreement problem. That's simply the way it is, in modern religion too.

You're only wasting your time and mine, trying to make it appear that what many in theology and elsewhere would expect to happen to sentence structure by properly scientifically operationally defining the "intelligent cause" part of the process.

There is also the challenge for all from Planet Source Code and other things that cannot be argued away, which are now done and in the past. Arguing semantics will not make that go away.
Categories: AE Public BB

A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Tue, 2014-04-08 02:02
Post by N.Wells
Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 07 2014,20:21)
Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)   Quote Culture changers love to be in on culture changing science, but they don't want to argue whether "evolutionary theory" has weaknesses or not. They more or less already spoke on where to go by describing how in the backwater something that never changes is always swirling, that in a jiffy can suck down an Institute like the DI, but they got lucky by my finding theory worth defending from their premise. That's how I have to look at it anyway, for good reason pertaining to culture change that already exists to stay in step with otherwise all the noise they asked for ends up working against them.

In my opinion what happens in places other than UD is far more important than opinions there, but to each their own. To me it just seems like screaming at each other in a closet many just as well you stay inside, so they can't hear you. What matters the most is what's happening outside, where people program models and work on all sorts of other things that keeps both science and religion going through time.
What the heck is all that supposed to mean?

See "Law of unintended consequences"[/quote]
I understand all about unintended consequences.  The problem, however, is that your prose is indecipherable, so your meaning is entirely opaque.


Quote   Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)   Quote The first sentence of the theory also took a few years to get right, in part because of absolutely needing how Genesis sums up the relationship.       Quote The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, whereby a collective of intelligent entities at one intelligence level combine to create another (Logos, animating) level of intelligence for it to control at the next, which results in emergent self-similar entities each systematically in their own image, likeness. So maybe in a century or three you'll have whipped it into a reasonable sentence and a decent idea.  However, until then both the concept and the sentence remain atrocious.
image, likeness   needs "or"

"and" would be more precise, but comma shortens without worry about which (or/and) to use.
Once again, only in your mind. "And" implies two separate things.  "Or" would imply two synonyms.  A comma simply leaves the reader wondering what the heck is going on in your mind.

Quote   Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
each / their         non-agreement

I don't think you are fully comprehending what the sentence is saying. I see no other agreement that makes sense.  Of course I am not fully comprehending what the sentence is saying - I have to guess at what you meant because you aren't following standard and comprehensible rules of grammar.  If you want others to comprehend your ideas, you need to get the thoughts out of the tangles in your mind and into good (i.e. grammatical) English. "Each" would be matched by "its", or you could rewrite the sentence in some other way that is grammatical and conveys what you want to say.

Quote   Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
systematically      empty assertion

That is a vital QUALIFIER to operationally define intelligent cause in the context of Systems Biology.

Removing a necessary qualifier is not an option.
If it is vital then it needs to be justified and its vitality needs to be explained, because it is in no way vital to anybody other than you.

Quote   Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
self-similar           empty assertion

Removing a necessary qualifier is not an option. Again, without backing up your claim, your assertion is hollow.  If you want to claim that something is self-similar then we need to see an equation that specifies the fractal dimension and a specification of the orders of magnitude over which it applies.  If the claim is self-evident, we could dispense with the math because everybody would be nodding in agreement.  However, with your claims of this nature, no one is seeing what is obvious to you, so no one is buying a thing that you are saying, so you have to provide the math to convince people that you know what you are talking about.

Quote   Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
for it to control    
at the next          I think you mean at the new level, not at the next, but worse......

The word "new" implies this intelligent causation never happened anywhere else in the universe, which the theory does not. There is just the "next" level, that would always have still been there, all along, just not achieved yet. Say what? In your mangled context, "whereby a collective of intelligent entities at one intelligence level [say, level A] combine to create another (Logos, animating) level [that would be level B] of intelligence for it to control at the next [i.e., level C, except that you meant to refer to level B again].  You're clueless.

Quote Expecting me to suggest things that are contrary to the theory only indicates that you are still trying to change the subject to a red-herring theory that you invented, instead of the theory that actually exists.  All I was trying to get you to do in that post was to write your ideas in clear and grammatical English so that people can understand what the heck you are trying to say.  

I am confident that once you do this it be even more clear than it already is that you are stuffed to overflowing with B.S., but I do so love a gilded lily.
Categories: AE Public BB

A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Tue, 2014-04-08 01:44
Post by Texas Teach
Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 07 2014,20:21) Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)   Quote Culture changers love to be in on culture changing science, but they don't want to argue whether "evolutionary theory" has weaknesses or not. They more or less already spoke on where to go by describing how in the backwater something that never changes is always swirling, that in a jiffy can suck down an Institute like the DI, but they got lucky by my finding theory worth defending from their premise. That's how I have to look at it anyway, for good reason pertaining to culture change that already exists to stay in step with otherwise all the noise they asked for ends up working against them.

In my opinion what happens in places other than UD is far more important than opinions there, but to each their own. To me it just seems like screaming at each other in a closet many just as well you stay inside, so they can't hear you. What matters the most is what's happening outside, where people program models and work on all sorts of other things that keeps both science and religion going through time.
What the heck is all that supposed to mean?

See "Law of unintended consequences"


  Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)   Quote The first sentence of the theory also took a few years to get right, in part because of absolutely needing how Genesis sums up the relationship.       Quote The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, whereby a collective of intelligent entities at one intelligence level combine to create another (Logos, animating) level of intelligence for it to control at the next, which results in emergent self-similar entities each systematically in their own image, likeness. So maybe in a century or three you'll have whipped it into a reasonable sentence and a decent idea.  However, until then both the concept and the sentence remain atrocious.
image, likeness   needs "or"

"and" would be more precise, but comma shortens without worry about which (or/and) to use.

  Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
each / their         non-agreement

I don't think you are fully comprehending what the sentence is saying. I see no other agreement that makes sense.

  Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
systematically      empty assertion

That is a vital QUALIFIER to operationally define intelligent cause in the context of Systems Biology.

Removing a necessary qualifier is not an option.

  Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
self-similar           empty assertion

Removing a necessary qualifier is not an option.

  Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
for it to control    
at the next          I think you mean at the new level, not at the next, but worse......

The word "new" implies this intelligent causation never happened anywhere else in the universe, which the theory does not. There is just the "next" level, that would always have still been there, all along, just not achieved yet.

Expecting me to suggest things that are contrary to the theory only indicates that you are still trying to change the subject to a red-herring theory that you invented, instead of the theory that actually exists.
This is why Gary is hilarious.

1) He thinks he can change the use of grammar and punctuation so it will be shorter without turning his sentences into gibberish.

2) He never learned that there are rules about singular and plural word compatibility.

3) He thinks he's justified in claiming something because he needs it to be true.  He's totally clueless that this is bass ackwards.
Categories: AE Public BB

Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Tue, 2014-04-08 01:39
Post by Richardthughes
Quote (Ptaylor @ April 07 2014,19:55)Sal Cordova really should have seen this coming. In posting a thread titled 'Questions college students should ask science professors' he should have anticipated:
1. Someone (i.e. Roy) might actually answer his questions
2. UD regulars (in this case Barb) would use it to go into full Big Daddy? mode, suggesting more questions. Sample:
Question: What takes greater faith—to believe that the millions of intricately coordinated parts of a cell arose by chance or to believe that the cell is the product of an intelligent mind?

I can just see that atheist materialist darwinist professor withering under an onslaught like that.
UD link
And that atheist materialist darwinist professor....was Hitler!!!111
Categories: AE Public BB

A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Tue, 2014-04-08 01:21
Post by GaryGaulin
Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14) Quote Culture changers love to be in on culture changing science, but they don't want to argue whether "evolutionary theory" has weaknesses or not. They more or less already spoke on where to go by describing how in the backwater something that never changes is always swirling, that in a jiffy can suck down an Institute like the DI, but they got lucky by my finding theory worth defending from their premise. That's how I have to look at it anyway, for good reason pertaining to culture change that already exists to stay in step with otherwise all the noise they asked for ends up working against them.

In my opinion what happens in places other than UD is far more important than opinions there, but to each their own. To me it just seems like screaming at each other in a closet many just as well you stay inside, so they can't hear you. What matters the most is what's happening outside, where people program models and work on all sorts of other things that keeps both science and religion going through time.
What the heck is all that supposed to mean?

See "Law of unintended consequences"


Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14) Quote The first sentence of the theory also took a few years to get right, in part because of absolutely needing how Genesis sums up the relationship.       Quote The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, whereby a collective of intelligent entities at one intelligence level combine to create another (Logos, animating) level of intelligence for it to control at the next, which results in emergent self-similar entities each systematically in their own image, likeness. So maybe in a century or three you'll have whipped it into a reasonable sentence and a decent idea.  However, until then both the concept and the sentence remain atrocious.
image, likeness   needs "or"

"and" would be more precise, but comma shortens without worry about which (or/and) to use.

Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
each / their         non-agreement

I don't think you are fully comprehending what the sentence is saying. I see no other agreement that makes sense.

Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
systematically      empty assertion

That is a vital QUALIFIER to operationally define intelligent cause in the context of Systems Biology.

Removing a necessary qualifier is not an option.

Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
self-similar           empty assertion

Removing a necessary qualifier is not an option.

Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,14:14)
for it to control    
at the next          I think you mean at the new level, not at the next, but worse......

The word "new" implies this intelligent causation never happened anywhere else in the universe, which the theory does not. There is just the "next" level, that would always have still been there, all along, just not achieved yet.

Expecting me to suggest things that are contrary to the theory only indicates that you are still trying to change the subject to a red-herring theory that you invented, instead of the theory that actually exists.
Categories: AE Public BB

A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Tue, 2014-04-08 00:57
Post by stevestory
I mostly scan this thread once or twice a day looking for particularly addled sentences pulled out of gary's rubble by others.

Quote They more or less already spoke on where to go by describing how in the backwater something that never changes is always swirling, that in a jiffy can suck down an Institute like the DI, but they got lucky by my finding theory worth defending from their premise.

Mr. T had something to say about that sort of thing once...
Categories: AE Public BB

Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Tue, 2014-04-08 00:55
Post by Ptaylor
Sal Cordova really should have seen this coming. In posting a thread titled 'Questions college students should ask science professors' he should have anticipated:
1. Someone (i.e. Roy) might actually answer his questions
2. UD regulars (in this case Barb) would use it to go into full Big Daddy? mode, suggesting more questions. Sample:
Question: What takes greater faith—to believe that the millions of intricately coordinated parts of a cell arose by chance or to believe that the cell is the product of an intelligent mind?

I can just see that atheist materialist darwinist professor withering under an onslaught like that.
UD link
Categories: AE Public BB

A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Mon, 2014-04-07 22:32
Post by Glen Davidson
Quote (stevestory @ April 07 2014,16:51) Quote (N.Wells @ April 07 2014,15:14) Quote Culture changers love to be in on culture changing science, but they don't want to argue whether "evolutionary theory" has weaknesses or not. They more or less already spoke on where to go by describing how in the backwater something that never changes is always swirling, that in a jiffy can suck down an Institute like the DI, but they got lucky by my finding theory worth defending from their premise. That's how I have to look at it anyway, for good reason pertaining to culture change that already exists to stay in step with otherwise all the noise they asked for ends up working against them.

In my opinion what happens in places other than UD is far more important than opinions there, but to each their own. To me it just seems like screaming at each other in a closet many just as well you stay inside, so they can't hear you. What matters the most is what's happening outside, where people program models and work on all sorts of other things that keeps both science and religion going through time.
What the heck is all that supposed to mean?
It means Gary ate the brown acid.
No way, I took the brown acid and I'm just paradigm-shifting the model of intelligence proving the basis of molecular intelligence with integration of religion and visual basics.  

Stick that in your science-stopping pipe you educratic fascist track-foreclosing persecutor of Gary.

Glen Davidson
Categories: AE Public BB

A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Sun, 2014-04-06 13:08
Post by NoName
And the distractions and deflections continue.

Did it ever cross your mind that the other uses of the illustration you stole might have been used by permission?

Did it ever occur to you that mentioning here that what goes on at UD isn't really particularly significant or important is preaching to the choir?

No, no more than it occurs to you to stop distracting and deflection and instead address the many flaws, errors and outright contradictions in your work.
So be it.  We'll continue to laugh and point until you seriously engage on the issues.
Categories: AE Public BB

The Strange Mental World of Darwinian Fundamentalists

Recently, I participated in good faith in an open forum blog discussion at the National Center for Science Education site. Stephen H. Webb
Categories: Anti-Science News

A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Sun, 2014-04-06 11:22
Post by GaryGaulin
And from thread for Sal's Cosmos:

  Quote (keiths @ April 06 2014,01:49)A nice comment from Diogenes at Larry Moran's blog (there are lots of links in the original, but I can't be arsed to transcribe them):
    Quote
Torley is one of the smarter IDers. That's damning with faint praise, it's true.

In the infamous MathGrrl thread at Uncommon Descent, where MathGrrl asked the IDiots how to compute the change in Dembski's "Complex Specified Information" for the simplest conceivable genetic changes, Torley was the only one with the balls to actually do a computation. His math was all f*&@ed up (he thought genes were about 100,000 bps long) but at least he immediately computed that gene duplication vastly increases Dembski's "Complex Specified Information."

At least Torley, for a brief moment, conceded that natural processes can increase Dembski's CSI. Which would normally mean that ID is dead dead dead.

Then he took it back, naturally. A few days later Torley wrote another post where he basically invoked the usual ID circular-logic fraud-- since gene duplication is a natural process that increases Dembski's CSI, and that's the answer they don't want, therefore Dembski's CSI just shouldn't be computed for gene duplication events. It's like you're doing a double blind test on a pill that's said to cure cancer. Uh-oh, you find the same number of patients who took your pill got cancer as the control group. That's easy to fix-- just say the pill doesn't work on people who will later get cancer. Problem solved! Torley's take-it-back post is entitled, and I kid you not, "Why there’s no such thing as a CSI Scanner." Uh-- we know why, Vince. Every time you give us a real equation for CSI, we can show by simple f&%$ing math that natural processes increase it enormously. So you damn well better not give us an equation, you ID frauds.

Torley is also unusual among IDiots in that, in the MathGrrl thread, he admitted that Dembski's CSI is based on a "probability" calculation in which the "probability" is never the actual probability of the evolutionary path under consideration, but is instead the fake probability of a totally unrelated process-- the random scrambling of all parts-- which I call the tornado probability. Dembski himself almost never admits that his CSI calculation for all natural processes is based always on tornado probability and never on the probability of real evolutionary pathways (Richard Wein got him to admit it once, sort of, but mostly Dembski obfuscates and BS's, which is one of the reasons why none of the IDiots know how to compute CSI. Dembski doesn't want them to know how.)

The other IDiots, though they brag and boast they are smarter than the world's scientists, can't do long division. Multiplication troubles almost all of them.

Look at their reaction to Larry's ultra-simplified math. Larry tried to dumb neutral evolution down to simple multiplication and IDiots like Sal Cordova can't understand the math. Of multiplication. Multi-f%^&ing-cation. It isn't even frikkin calculus. How the hell should we communicate with these people? Hand puppets? But every UDite think he's Galileo.

As it turns out information from intelligence is not the same as randomness and with all said you're arguing over nothing while science marches on with Theory of Intelligent Design I'm explaining already culturally ushered in from the days of my getting over accidentally become a "radio pirate" with the FCC having to come make me sign off that led to my talking about this sort of thing that worded it in band name and lyrics. Since back then communication was one-way (fax from me out to others) I have no way of knowing what was in the Grunge scene pipeline was a thought from me, but all together was none the less going there, wherever it came from. Thus, this is already weirdly available, for you ID enjoyment too:

Gel - Collective Soul with the Atlanta Symphony Youth Orchestra

Shine - Collective Soul with the Atlanta Symphony Youth Orchestra

That is a very serious calling song and "Shine" theme in now historic concert that made it easy for me to show what I was trying to explain, before there was a Collective Soul on the radio for an example of it. Not preachy, and later still apply, in a way like now where I can later link to a video with Atlanta Symphony Youth Orchestra in a forum that helps take us ever further into science history just by my doing that.

I did not think up "Collective Soul" or prescribe lyrics. It's others helping to explain what the Discovery Institute was more or less talking about out in Seattle right after my writing a short book "Science To Believe In" for radio talents to get around to those they feel worthy. It explained the three levels that are still explained now, but without added detail and computer model to help show its systematics. The theory only improved in time, to where it is now. What came next from Seattle after Grunge to start a cultural revolution with somewhere at least in the end working in the theory the book first introduced a long time ago, that's still holding true in 2014.

I do not think that the Discover Institute knew what it was up against in regards to where culture change would be willing to go with the theory they were talking about. In proper context it has a way of awakening this one back to life again as well:

meat puppets backwater

Culture changers love to be in on culture changing science, but they don't want to argue whether "evolutionary theory" has weaknesses or not. They more or less already spoke on where to go by describing how in the backwater something that never changes is always swirling, that in a jiffy can suck down an Institute like the DI, but they got lucky by my finding theory worth defending from their premise. That's how I have to look at it anyway, for good reason pertaining to culture change that already exists to stay in step with otherwise all the noise they asked for ends up working against them.

In my opinion what happens in places other than UD is far more important than opinions there, but to each their own. To me it just seems like screaming at each other in a closet many just as well you stay inside, so they can't hear you. What matters the most is what's happening outside, where people program models and work on all sorts of other things that keeps both science and religion going through time.
Categories: AE Public BB
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