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J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 22 2007,10:24   

Congratulation Doc.  Wish I could do the same, but job worries  hold me back. My kids and wife have gotten spoiled, and they expect food on a regular basis, which takes money.   Not to mention a terrible stage fright...   If my employer knew of my REAL thoughts about Evo, DI etc, I would be unemployed.   (That's why the generic name BTW).

Good luck to you on future talks, and even if Lenny is 100% right, and I am not totally convinced, I think we should do everything we can to battle the DaveScots and Dembskis of the world.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 22 2007,17:27   

Quote (Mike PSS @ Jan. 22 2007,08:36)
It seems that your saying the fight against ID/Creationism political power is over.

ID/creationists HAVE no political power, as of now.

I'd like to keep it that way.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Mike PSS



Posts: 428
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 22 2007,18:21   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Jan. 22 2007,18:27)
Quote (Mike PSS @ Jan. 22 2007,08:36)
It seems that your saying the fight against ID/Creationism political power is over.

ID/creationists HAVE no political power, as of now.

I'd like to keep it that way.

I would say the ID/creationists have no FEDERAL legislative power but what we see across the country is like a hangover of power.  There are enough people in government, local and state also, that are ID/C friendly that can hide/suppress their support for ID/C while at the same time restrict the actual enforcement of the laws that are on the books.

The school board fight is a natural next step, but I think the state governments will be as important to consider.  For your idea to move to other states then those states must have enforcable statewide cirriculum standards as strong as the state with the court case.  This may require legislative change in numerous states.  I think we'll find this battle long and drawn out as each state house tries to come to terms with definitions and statutes that are muddied in terminology by the likes of the DI or AFDave.

The FEDERAL political fight is over but the states political fights are just beginning.

Unless you want to support a federal cirriculum standard enforced by the Department of Education  ;)  ???  :O  :angry:  (not sure which smiley to put here)

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2007,16:14   

Gary: There's a Borders Books at 475 S Lake Ave Pasadena, CA 626-304-9773 , right near CalTech, but in  their schedule for Feb., they look pretty full (it's one of their busier stores, I imagine). Let me know what happens. Cheers!

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2007,18:29   

Quote (Mike PSS @ Jan. 22 2007,18:21)
The FEDERAL political fight is over but the states political fights are just beginning.



Nah, they're dead there too.  Over the past few years, they tried to introduce scads of ID-friendly laws in state legislatures all over the country.  Not a one of them passed.  Most of them never even made it out of committee.

-edit-    In any case, Federal law and Federal court decisions supercede any state law or court decisions -- no state legislature can pass any law that conflicts with Federal law or Federal court decisions.  So once the IDers lost at the Federal level, that loses the entire game for them.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2007,18:32   

Quote (Mike PSS @ Jan. 22 2007,18:21)
There are enough people in government, local and state also, that are ID/C friendly that can hide/suppress their support for ID/C while at the same time restrict the actual enforcement of the laws that are on the books.

That is OUR fault (collectively) for not sueing the bastards.

The law is on our side.  It's nobody's fault but our own if we don't actually USE it when necessary.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2007,19:34   

Quote
If my employer knew of my REAL thoughts about Evo, DI etc, I would be unemployed.

That sounds to me like illegal discrimination.  You could own the SOBs.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2007,19:38   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Jan. 23 2007,16:14)
Gary: There's a Borders Books at 475 S Lake Ave Pasadena, CA 626-304-9773 , right near CalTech, but in  their schedule for Feb., they look pretty full (it's one of their busier stores, I imagine). Let me know what happens. Cheers!

Cool.  I'll see when we can schedule a talk.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Mike PSS



Posts: 428
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2007,20:30   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Jan. 23 2007,19:29)
Quote (Mike PSS @ Jan. 22 2007,18:21)
The FEDERAL political fight is over but the states political fights are just beginning.



Nah, they're dead there too.  Over the past few years, they tried to introduce scads of ID-friendly laws in state legislatures all over the country.  Not a one of them passed.  Most of them never even made it out of committee.

-edit-    In any case, Federal law and Federal court decisions supercede any state law or court decisions -- no state legislature can pass any law that conflicts with Federal law or Federal court decisions.  So once the IDers lost at the Federal level, that loses the entire game for them.

I think your missing my point.  It's not that the state legislatures will draft ID/C friendly bills.  They will NOT draft bills that support a better treatment for evolution teaching.

Stagnation is their best friend right now.  A defensive holding of the status quo.

  
Fross



Posts: 71
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2007,21:31   

ID is dead at a political level, but on a cultural level it is not.  My father, (a now retired biology teacher) had to constantly deal with parents who felt justified to cause all sorts of havoc on him and his school because they read some creationist/ID misinformation.  Public schools all over the US are purposely bipassing teaching evolution and even old earth geology in an attempt to make the school year go more smoothly.  Science education is still suffering big time.

Countering that misinformation is going to be a fulltime task and if you only educate one parent somewhere, that's one less parent a public school teacher has to deal with.

Kudos on your bookstore talk!!!

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"For everything else, there's Mastertard"

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2007,22:27   

>>ID is dead at a political level, but on a cultural level it is not.


Well heck, a far higher proportion of the US population believes in ESP and alien abductions than believes in creationism.  (shrug)  But as long as they have no political power to enforce their nuttiness onto others, it remains pretty much harmless.

If being stupid were a crime, most of the US would be in jail.  

As for creationists, they can preach their crap in church every Sunday from now until Jesus comes back, and I couldn't care less.    But if they try again to use political power to force their crap into public schools, I will fight them with every weapon at my disposal.



>> My father, (a now retired biology teacher) had to constantly deal with parents who felt justified to cause all sorts of havoc on him and his school because they read some creationist/ID misinformation.



About once a month or so, I get emails through my website from teachers who ask me "I have creationist students/parents pestering me -- what should I do?"  My advice is always the same --- call them into your office, sit them down, look them straight in the eye, and tell them that it is illegal to teach creationism, or to water down the teaching of evolution out of deference to their religious opinions.  Illegal.  Against the law.  Period.  Full stop.  End of discussion.  Then hand them a complete copy of the Maclean, Aguillard and Kitzmiller decisions.  And if they still want to gripe, then hand them the phone number of a local lawyer and invite them to take up the matter with the Supreme Court if they want.  Then show them the door.  

Repeat as necessary.

And if the local administrators object to that, then use that local lawyer's number and call him yourself, then sue the bastards.


>>  Public schools all over the US are purposely bipassing teaching evolution and even old earth geology in an attempt to make the school year go more smoothly.



That is OUR fault, collectively, for not sueing the crap out of them.  It is illegal to either teach creationism, or to water down or remove evolution in deference to people's religious opinions.  And if they are getting away with it, it's OUR fault for not stopping them.  The law is on our side.  All we have to do is use it.


>Science education is suffering bigtime.


ALL American education is suffering bigtime.  That's why most Americans still think Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks, why most Americans can't name more than one or two of the rights listed in the Bill of Rights, and why many Americans can't even find the United States on a world map.

We are a nation of uneducated uninformed pig-ignorant buffoons.  Why the heck the rest of the world trusts us with weapons of mass destruction, I have no idea at all.

But then, our education system isn't designed to actually EDUCATE anybody.  It's purpose is to keep producing enough minimum-wage service-sector employees to keep our economy from utterly collapsing.  Despite all our high-sounding talk, as a society, our actions demonstrate that we're not really interested in producing people who can make informed thoughtful decisions (and we're CERTAINLY not interested in PAYING for it).  We're only interested in producing the next generation of cheeseburger-flippers.

To change that will mean making political, social and economic changes that we, as a society, simply don't want to make.

So it won't change.  (shrug)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2007,07:31   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Jan. 23 2007,22:27)
 Why the heck the rest of the world trusts us with weapons of mass destruction, I have no idea at all.

They don't

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
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