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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Science and Anti-Science in '08 Politics

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stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 05 2008,21:55    Obama is definitely religious but that doesn't bother me because he's not a christianist. I don't think he's going to force his religion on me, unlike, say, Huckabee. Here's a couple bits from Obama's website: Quote • The separation of church and state is critical and has caused our democracy and religious practices to thrive. “[Conservative leaders] need to understand the critical role that the separation of church and state has played in preserving not only our democracy, but the robustness of our religious practice. Folks tend to forget that during our founding, it wasn't the atheists or the civil libertarians who were the most effective champions of the First Amendment. It was the persecuted minorities, it was Baptists like John Leland…It was the forbearers of the evangelicals who were the most adamant about not mingling government with religion, because they did not want state-sponsored religion hindering their ability to practice their faith…” – Call to Renewal Keynote Address • We are a nation of many faiths and of those with no faith at all. The religious practices of all must be respected. “Given the increasing diversity of America's population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.” - Call to Renewal Keynote Address There are a few reasons I like Obama. On understanding the U.S. constitution he's got credentials none of the other candidates match. And the constitution could use a friend right now, because for six years it was Tina Turner and the Republicans were Ike. Obama is extremely smart and made the right decision on the war when few others did. He represents a new and positive era in race-related politics. The international community would adore him and again, after the current administration has brought our reputation so low, that would be great. His policies to make more humane the War On Citizens Who Use Drugs rate high in my book. He's not a perfect candidate, but I don't find in him the huge problems I find in the others.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 06 2008,13:39    I think the choice is simple.  If you want four more years of Republican leadership in the White House then Clinton is your man, err woman.  If you want a Democrat as President then Obama gets the nod.  What has amazed me in the last six months or so is how the democratic elite are completely blind to this elementary fact.  If Thursday was proof of anything on the Republican side it was how easy it is to mobilize them on a common goal and Clinton certainly represents that common goal.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 07 2008,22:59    Numbers have continued changing, not just in New Hampshire now, but nationwide. Obama now has a ten point lead in NH (primary tomorrow) and a thirteen point lead in South Carolina (next, on Jan 26). Barring something like he calls a kid 'macaca', Obama's almost certainly going to be the nominee. Interestingly, in the last few weeks McCain has come from nowhere to become nearly the frontrunner on the GOP side. I haven't thought much about why yet. I mean, Romney's an obvious fake and the christianists don't like him, Giuliani's an amoral narcissist with authoritarian tendencies, and the educated, secular Republican elite view Huckabee as a bible-thumping creationist idiot, but even so, McCain's surge has been surprising.

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 07 2008,23:03    Steve Sternberged: Quote Obama is definitely religious but that doesn't bother me because he's not a christianist. Yeah ain't he Muslim?  Swear I saw that on the View or something.  PZ.  I dunno. **Ed diddiduad  Ahhhh doonesbury.  no? -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

UnMark Posts: 97 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,00:27    Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 05 2008,21:13) Oprah endorsed him [Obama].  I really can't stomach that woman, so although I wouldn't base a political decision on that, it doesn't help me like him more. Oprah endorses people of minority.  David Blaine is generally reviled within the magician communitiy because he's very popular despite his abject magical mediocrity.  He became popular because Oprah was looking for a magician for a show, and she selected the black one for the gig.  Or, that's what my magician friend said. I saw Obama on Leno a few months ago.  I liked what he had to say.  I remember looking at my wife and saying he had my vote.  Of course, I haven't actually looked up what his genuine positions are, and if he does indeed want to cut NASA and other science budgets, then I do have a problem with him.  I suspect that his economists will tell him there's a much bigger "return" on money spent via NASA and science in general than, say, money spent via tax refunds/cuts.  (In case I have to spell it out - a lot of innovations come out of NASA spending that end up being commercialized.)

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,01:17    Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 07 2008,22:59) Numbers have continued changing, not just in New Hampshire now, but nationwide. Obama now has a ten point lead in NH (primary tomorrow) and a thirteen point lead in South Carolina (next, on Jan 26). Barring something like he calls a kid 'macaca', Obama's almost certainly going to be the nominee. Interestingly, in the last few weeks McCain has come from nowhere to become nearly the frontrunner on the GOP side. I haven't thought much about why yet. I mean, Romney's an obvious fake and the christianists don't like him, Giuliani's an amoral narcissist with authoritarian tendencies, and the educated, secular Republican elite view Huckabee as a bible-thumping creationist idiot, but even so, McCain's surge has been surprising. McCain's the moderate, sane one for his party. Moderate enough to have a chance of beating a democratic candidate in a country sick to death of Bush. The Republican voters know this, and that's what makes him attractive. He's also a war hero and doesn't come off as unspeakably bloodthirsty, which are pluses. Even the Republicans are sick of Bush. -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

Nomad Posts: 311 Joined: July 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,01:27    I have a hard time coming up with a concrete opinion of the candidates.  Well, I mean I just write off all the GOP candidates right off the bat.. or rather I do know SOMETHING about them, and what I know makes my stomach turn.. But on the Obama vs Clinton contest I don't have a great deal of hard fact to work from.  Clinton has that whole experience thing, but Obama has the advantage that every time I hear him speak I feel this curious upswelling of an emotion that's completely unlike the bleak pessimism that I've felt these past Bush years.  I know that there's more to the presidency than just public speaking, but I want to see him get the position just so I can see what he does with it.  As he put it, between Cheney and Rumsfeld the Bush White House had a lot of experience, and look what it got them. If gutting the NASA budget is what it takes to get all the other things that need doing done.. than so be it.  Believe me, I REALLY wouldn't want to see NASA's budget slashed, I understand the many practical benefits that come from that work.  It would be a stupid move.  But if the choice is between an otherwise excellent presidency and a gutted NASA or another mediocre presidency that funds NASA well, then my choice is the former. I really hate that what I'm about to say sounds like it came from the lips of Ron Paul, but with the way things have been going lately I kind of think that the next big thing in space exploration is going to come out of private enterprise anyway.  NASA dropped the ball over a decade ago and they never picked it up again. Rutan does what he did with Spaceship One and the best that a NASA mouthpiece can do is to poo poo the project because they spent more money developing it than they got in the X-prize reward?  Normally I'm a NASA supporter, but in that situation he should shut the hell up.  NASA's costs are rising and their output is shrinking.  The Space Shuttle (which was always an inspiration to me as a kid) is turning out to be a money hole and the best they can do is sink MORE money into it, and for a successor they come up with an Apollo era throwback that reuses Space Shuttle parts.  But because they're reusing STS parts only one of the launch configurations is even considered safe enough to put people on it.  Thus any moon missions are going to require two separate launches with two entire launch vehicles.  Oh yeah, THAT sounds like an effective cost cutting measure to me.

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,06:46    Quick clarification before I'm off to the hospital: Upon further reading, what Obama's actually advocating is delaying the Constellation (the "Moon, Mars, and beyond") program by five years. I was a big fan of the shuttle in the beginning, but it really has disappointed me.  I expected it to be a stepping stone back into space.  Ditto the ISS.  Mostly, they've become a money pit, endlessly circling the globe for no apparent reason.  I see no great benefit to either program, even the vaunted "international cooperationism" that was so loudly touted. Besides just plain exploratory curiosity, I'd like to see humans develop the ability to get off this rock before the extinction of the species occurs by whatever means. I want to be on the bridge of the Enterprise at First Contact, as it were... ...or at least get high-def webcam video of naked aliens.  Either way. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,07:47    Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 08 2008,06:46) ...or at least get high-def webcam video of naked aliens.  Either way. :D Why would you want to see the Discovery Institute Board of Directors naked? -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,08:49    Quote (J-Dog @ Jan. 08 2008,06:47) Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 08 2008,06:46) ...or at least get high-def webcam video of naked aliens.  Either way. Why would you want to see the Discovery Institute Board of Directors naked? I'd like to get my hands on their archives. *Pant! Pant!* -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

EoRaptor013 Posts: 45 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,10:42    Quote (Kristine @ Jan. 08 2008,09:49) I'd like to get my hands on their archives. *Pant! Pant!* ;) Oooh, Kristine you sultry vamp! Can I be your paramour, err, I mean paralegal?   Quote (Nomad @ Jan. 08 2008,02:27) If gutting the NASA budget is what it takes to get all the other things that need doing done.. than so be it. Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 08 2008,07:46) I was a big fan of the shuttle in the beginning, but it really has disappointed me.  I expected it to be a stepping stone back into space.  Ditto the ISS.  Mostly, they've become a money pit, endlessly circling the globe for no apparent reason.  I see no great benefit to either program, even the vaunted "international cooperationism" that was so loudly touted. Although a lot of new technology came out of the three early NASA programs (Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo), the agency has been patently moribund since. The shuttle was a boondoggle from the beginning (with the exception of servicing Hubble) and the ISS is even worse. As for deciding how to vote, one criterion I've adopted is to regularly visit PolitiFact and FactCheck.org. As election time approaches, thems what got the least lies, 'prolly got da vote. Interestingly, Pastor Huckabee (he is the subject of this thread, no?) has a goodly number of false, barely true, and half true ratings. Gotta love them fundagelical Christians! $0.02 :D

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,10:52    Hubble and them Mars robots were value for money. I hope they go for a manned trip to Mars in my lifetime, or perhaps the more ambitious HEDDLE SPACE TELESCOPE -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

factician Posts: 77 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,10:53    Seems to me the problem with NASA has been that they've been too closely linked to the political process.  Reagan says he wants a space station, they build a space station.  Bush says to make a moonbase, now they plan a moonbase.  But what the hell for?  Seems to me the best way to fix NASA is to make the process more insulated from politicians, ala the NIH.  Put decisions back in the hands of scientists and engineers. (Note:  I'm prejudiced, most of my money comes from the NIH, and though they have their problems, I think largely they do a better job handing out cash than other science agencies). -------------- conspiracyfactory.blogspot.com

factician Posts: 77 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,10:54    On Giuliani: Quote In a bit of animal pop-psychology, (Giuliani) said that (circus) animals with a purpose in life were happier than those without one. He called objections by P.E.T.A. to animals in the circus ''weird.'' Added bits in parentheses to clarify.  Read the NY Times story for more.  He was a nut before 9/11.  Now he's a nut who knows how to milk 9/11 for votes.  Ick. -------------- conspiracyfactory.blogspot.com

EoRaptor013 Posts: 45 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,11:15    Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 08 2008,11:52) Hubble and them Mars robots were value for money. How could I forget the Mars rovers! That project is so spectacularly successful it makes me wonder if NASA was actually involved! $0.02 Edited to add: I don't need no stinkin' edit button!

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,11:24    Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 08 2008,11:52) Hubble and them Mars robots were value for money. I hope they go for a manned trip to Mars in my lifetime, or perhaps the more ambitious HEDDLE SPACE TELESCOPE (smiles) I love this site. Big thanks to Wes and Lou and everybody else for making this the coolest site on the Intarwebs.

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,11:29    Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 08 2008,11:24) I love this site. Big thanks to Wes and Lou and everybody else for making this the coolest site on the Intarwebs. If you truly believe that, then maybe you should  have a heart-to-heart discussion with this chucklehead. -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,11:37    LOL. Well, yes. Think of it as some kind of Zen paradox. UD is the GRATEST SIET EVAR and also AtBC is too. The sound of three hands clapping, or something.

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,13:35    Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 08 2008,11:37) LOL. Well, yes. Think of it as some kind of Zen paradox. UD is the GRATEST SIET EVAR and also AtBC is too. The sound of three hands clapping, or something. :D If UD did not exist, we would have to invent it... V-Dog aka Voltaire -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

dheddle Posts: 545 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,13:57    Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 08 2008,10:52) Hubble and them Mars robots were value for money. I hope they go for a manned trip to Mars in my lifetime, or perhaps the more ambitious HEDDLE SPACE TELESCOPE I don't know how to respond to that! Well, since this is a political thread, I'll just say I ain't voting for nobody. And if anyone gives me that crap about "if you don't vote, then don't complain" I plan on kicking them in the shins. Oh, and I do intend to complain. Come to think of it, I wouldn't want an instrument named after me. If I could have anything named after me, it'd be an "anomaly." People who have anomalies named after them are 30% cooler than people who have effects named after them, and 22% cooler than people who have instruments named after them. edit: anomalous correction. -------------- Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,14:01    AND I WAS GOING TO GIVE YOU A CUSHEY MISSION CONTROL JOB, TOO. HAR HAR COULD'VE BEEN YOU. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,14:04    Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 08 2008,13:57) Come to think of it, I wouldn't want an instrument named after me. If I could have anything named after me, it'd be an "anomaly." People who have anomalies named after them are 30% cooler than people who have effects named after them, and 22% cooler than people who have instruments named after them. Yeah, but what about someone who has a unit of measure named after them? -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

keiths Posts: 2195 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,14:11    Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 08 2008,13:57)     Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 08 2008,10:52) Hubble and them Mars robots were value for money. I hope they go for a manned trip to Mars in my lifetime, or perhaps the more ambitious HEDDLE SPACE TELESCOPE Come to think of it, I wouldn't want an instrument named after me. If I could have anything named after me, it'd be an "anomaly." People who have anomalies named after them are 30% cooler than people who have effects named after them, and 22% cooler than people who have instruments named after them. How about "The Heddle Heresy"? -------------- And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,14:14    Quote (keiths @ Jan. 08 2008,14:11) How about "The Heddle Heresy"? Ha!  I read that as Heddle Is A Hussey! -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,14:17    I'd like to offer Dave's name in connection with belly-button fuzz, THE great anomaly. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,14:19    A NOM NOM NOM ALY: -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,14:32    Heddle's Law sounds cool.  All we need is the law. -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,14:42    Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Jan. 08 2008,14:32) Heddle's Law sounds cool.  All we need is the law. Just noticed your sig. Killer quote. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,15:47    Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 08 2008,14:42) Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Jan. 08 2008,14:32) Heddle's Law sounds cool.  All we need is the law. Just noticed your sig. Killer quote. Thanks!  I wanted to add the nonsense he wrote about the reality of winged humanoids and "weighty" invisible realities but it was too long.. -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2008,16:09    Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 08 2008,12:24) (smiles) I love this site. Big thanks to Wes and Lou and everybody else for making this the coolest site on the Intarwebs. Hey, I'm just the janitor, babe.  You on the other hand, are legendary. Thank you. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

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