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  Topic: Intellectually Honest Christians?, Is it possible?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2007,13:15   

Was is Mark Twain who said "Nothing is as overrated as mediocre fornication or as underrated as a good defication."?

Not sure I agree.

But if we're talking preferences here then I have to go with the reworded sentence. Thanks Lou, clarity is the cornerstone of optics.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
k.e.



Posts: 40
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2007,01:29   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 23 2007,19:49)
Quote (BWE @ Jan. 19 2007,12:13)
 
Quote (ke @ a,a)
I’d rather have a great meal and sex,
Duh. Who wouldn't? :)

Me.  I'd rather have a meal and great sex.

But that's just me.

...and the girls, so I guess that's just us.

Oh ....yes, but of course...even better standing up!!

And as far as the 'girls' go wouldn't that make you all .....tri-sexual?

  
ScaryFacts



Posts: 337
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2007,00:35   

Hey guys and gals,

I apologize for not carrying my part of the load here.  I will get caught up at some point, but I have been very busy with writing I needed to get done to make some cash.

I'll get back to it.

Scary

   
ScaryFacts



Posts: 337
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2007,00:41   

Quote (BWE @ Jan. 23 2007,11:42)
Where did Skeptic and Scary go?

BWE, in all honesty I had to use my brain for monetary endevors, and I didn't have the grey matter to come here and give coherant posts.  That's the bottom line.

You guys are great because you cause me to think. Do I believe?  Why do I believe?

That's exactly the reason I came here in the first place.

   
ScaryFacts



Posts: 337
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2007,00:46   

Quote (BWE @ Jan. 22 2007,18:30)
Why is xian any different from any other book?

It's not.

Here's my tack:

Almost everyone who experiences something they believe is transcendent had some methodology associated with it.  For Lenny it's counting backwards from 9.  For me it has been Christian rituals of fasting, prayer and worship.

One methodology is not necessarily any better than another, all we can do is testify to what has worked for us and what results we have recieved.

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2007,05:54   

Scary,

Doesn't this "reduce" the "transcendent" nature of these experiences to those things which pigeons experience in Skinner boxes?

I'm not being nasty or insulting, I experience these things too after all. My point is that perhaps what we give a supernatural label to is actually not supernatural at all but part of the natual function of physical brains. Animals can be made to act superstitiously, in the case of Skinner's pigeons, doing elaborate "rain dances" in order to get food.

We all have our rituals (perhaps), and we all experience that which we call trancendence in our own individual way (after all we are individual organisms) and that transcendent experience has commonalities that allow us to talk about it and be understood (after all we are all members of the same evolved species). We could be doing Skinnerian "rain dances" to get a "reward" be that a closeness, a society, a feeling of self worth, a moment of quiet contemplation in which we can find solutions to our problems. None of this validates the supernatural claims we make of those experiences.

To me, and feel free to disagree, the "trappings" of transcendence are unimportant, nothing more significant than personal preference (which is not insignificant...oh you know what I mean! ). Well designed houses which have been "feng shuied" don't validate the bonkers claims of feng shui, but they can be genuinely pleasant places to live. Why? Not because feng shui is representative of reality, but because it (accidentally perhaps) has hit on a number of underlying psychological phenomena which do have some basis in reality. I'm probably about to use the prefix "meta" which means I will have to shoot myself, so I'll stop there!

The analogy I am trying to make is that as humans we develop mental models of the world. Those mental models have certain things in common and are obviously, in part, developed by our biological heritage as well as our personal/experiential heritage and (equally obviously) are based on our ability to recognise patterns. Sometimes we recognise patterns that aren't really there but which have elements (interference?) with patterns that are really there. We ignore the possible falsity of our models at our own expense.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2007,08:36   

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 29 2007,05:54)
My point is that perhaps what we give a supernatural label to is actually not supernatural at all but part of the natual function of physical brains. Animals can be made to act superstitiously, in the case of Skinner's pigeons, doing elaborate "rain dances" in order to get food...

The analogy I am trying to make is that as humans we develop mental models of the world.

Yes. All perceptual states are also, at some level, brain states.  Yet some of them also usefully refer to states of affairs outside the organism (the brain states that accompany vision, for example). The question then becomes whether the states we attain through our 'practice of choice' are simply reinforcing, or additionally disclose something important about ourselves in the world.  

So, in addition to the peril of failing to recognize possible falsity of these perceptions, there may also be peril entailed in assuming that they are false.

As before, the problem arises when the model building begins: when we attempt to attach propositions to whatever it is we feel has been dislosed by those states.  With respect to vision, we spend a lifetime in "triangulated" interactions with others, with a common visual focus upon an external object or property at the apex of that triangle, making statements that grow out of that state of joint attention.  Indeed, we're wired to do so, and learn how language refers (and connects to indicia of attention such as gaze direction) in that context.  

There can be no easy apex vis the experiences we are discussing; hence the narratives we build around them often diverge, and sometimes go awry.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2007,09:16   

Quote
So, in addition to the peril of failing to recognize possible falsity of these perceptions, there may also be peril entailed in assuming that they are false.


I quite agree, esp with the emphasis on "assuming"!

Quote
There can be no easy apex vis the experiences we are discussing; hence the narratives we build around them often diverge, and sometimes go awry.


Yup. Case in point: the hideous mangled pseudopsychological analogy of my previous post! I wish I had a hundred lifetimes to learn all the basics of all the fields that interest me.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2007,18:05   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Jan. 29 2007,08:36)
As before, the problem arises when the model building begins: when we attempt to attach propositions to whatever it is we feel has been dislosed by those states.

Indeed, that is precisely why all the Asian traditions deny any need or utility for any "model", and declare that the only true path is to have . . . well . .  no path at all.

Whenever anyone says to himself "This is the Way", he is no longer on the Way.

The goal of all the Asian traditions, ironically, is to have the student **give up that tradition**.  Entirely.  Once you've caught the rabbit, you simply don't NEED the trap any longer.  (shrug)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2007,22:22   

Re "Once you've caught the rabbit, you simply don't NEED the trap any longer."

Well, that lets Elmer Fudd out...

Henry

  
k.e.



Posts: 40
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2007,22:46   

Quote (Henry J @ Jan. 29 2007,22:22)
Re "Once you've caught the rabbit, you simply don't NEED the trap any longer."

Well, that lets Elmer Fudd out...

Henry

Ah yes...the Zen of Fudd....the rabbitless rabbiter.

  
Mike PSS



Posts: 428
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2007,23:03   

Quote (k.e. @ Jan. 29 2007,23:46)
Quote (Henry J @ Jan. 29 2007,22:22)
Re "Once you've caught the rabbit, you simply don't NEED the trap any longer."

Well, that lets Elmer Fudd out...

Henry

Ah yes...the Zen of Fudd....the rabbitless rabbiter.

Shouldn't that be....

"wabbitless wabbiter"

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2007,23:09   

Quote (Mike PSS @ Jan. 29 2007,23:03)
Quote (k.e. @ Jan. 29 2007,23:46)
Quote (Henry J @ Jan. 29 2007,22:22)
Re "Once you've caught the rabbit, you simply don't NEED the trap any longer."

Well, that lets Elmer Fudd out...

Henry

Ah yes...the Zen of Fudd....the rabbitless rabbiter.

Shouldn't that be....

"wabbitless wabbiter"

Waskly wabbits wuv having their tummies wubbed.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2007,12:06   

Re "Waskly wabbits wuv having their tummies wubbed."

Not the wuns what live around my apartment - they scamper off if a person gets too close.  :p

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2007,13:43   

That's 'cause the ones that live awound yew-uh apawtment awen't the wight wuns!

Yew wanna twy to wub the wuns that wivv awound they-uh!

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2007,13:50   

Oh well, hare today, gone tomorrow, huh?

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2007,14:36   

Oh-wuh, in the immo-wuh-tal wuh-oods of Scawlett O'Heh-wuh,
"Ah'll woo-wee abow-ut they-ut, tomowwuh...!"

BWE:
Quote
Was is Mark Twain who said "Nothing is as overrated as mediocre fornication or as underrated as a good defication"?

Not sure I agree.


If I've evuh, er, ever heard this one of Clements' gems, it's long ago escaped my memory.

Just for clarification, though--was that "defication" meant to be "defecation" or "deification"...?

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2007,17:49   

Gee, I try to preach a serious point, and everyone turns it into a Bugs Bunny joke.

Cwazy wabbits.



;)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2007,19:15   

Zen'R'Us...

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2007,07:04   

Oddly enough, I have a serious relationship going with a rabbit. One of my kids worked in a pet shop a couple of years ago and brought home "Chandler," only to promptly ignore him for a year or so, during which time he did nothing but exhibit pure, unblinking Buddha Nature.  

I felt sorry for the animal and took it over.  His cage came up to my attic office and I began tending to him much more attentively, including daily periods free from his confines.  At first he displayed classic learned helplessness and wouldn't jump out of his box even with the cage removed, but now he dashes about and visits a number of points around my office, kicking up his heels with a giddy shake of his head.  I can almost hear "yippeee!!"  Then he sits most of the day, in one spot. Go figure.

I've been surprised to observe how he carefully confines his pellets to his cage, and there sequesters them in a neat pile.

My Buddy Rabbit.  >Sigh<

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2007,08:32   

That's scary RB  (hare raising in fact) the same thing happened to me.

No.1 girl gave up looking after her little beast, a mini lop so I took over for the same reason. First I made a run out of chicken wire about 8ft x 4ft x 2ft outside its hutch. Whenever I passed by her cage at a certain time of the day she would grab a piece of newspaper and run up and down indicating she wanted to play or be let out for a run around the yard.
This particular rabbit eventually lived free range in our yard and had a routine you could almost set your watch by. After her morning routine of exploring the yard or chasing off any cats, she would sit outside my office indicting she wanted to play but any other time of the day she would avoid me. She loved to jump up on my lap then jump down, run around and then jump up again. She would climb all over me and would play tug of war with bits of paper. I would say that rabbit had the intelligence or temperament of a dog; territorial, playful, stubborn, very interactive with a sense of humor. She loved to squeeze under my jacket in winter and go to sleep. She had the unfortunate habit of doing her nightly face washing on a neighbor’s lawn across the street and eventually chanced her life once too often. Anyway that bunny had the time of her life and died happy 5 years old 3 of them free range. If I was going to do that again I would just build a bigger run that connected to the office. A few month later I almost broke a leg when one of her excavations under our house caved in when I was carrying somethig heavy.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2007,08:50   

RB it took quite a long time to build up a rapport with our rabbit the more you interact with it the more it will trust you and include you in its play time. They are very social and will groom each other in groups. (In my younger days sneaking up on a group of grooming rabbits with a .22 was next to heaven) So it will be missing being touched. Ours used to groom me, licking my arm while sitting on my lap.

But if it was locked up for a while in its cage it would shiver when it was picked up, rabbits need more affection than cats or about the same as dogs in my opinion.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2007,09:18   

Quote (k.e @ Jan. 31 2007,08:50)
RB it took quite a long time to build up a rapport with our rabbit the more you interact with it the more it will trust you and include you in its play time. They are very social and will groom each other in groups. (In my younger days sneaking up on a group of grooming rabbits with a .22 was next to heaven) So it will be missing being touched. Ours used to groom me, licking my arm while sitting on my lap.

But if it was locked up for a while in its cage it would shiver when it was picked up, rabbits need more affection than cats or about the same as dogs in my opinion.

Chandler was extremely tactile-defensive at first and still freezes when picked up (which made it easy to trim his extremely gnarley nails.)  Now he tolerates being stroked and picked up, and I am working on getting him more accustomed to being handled. We've got a few cats and a dog but he holds his own with them.  

Fortunately for Chandler I discovered before it was too late that he was enjoying gnoshing on some power cords behind my desk.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2007,09:29   

Oh yes, power cord nibbling is a big problem with rabbits. I advise you to inspect any that Chandler may have had access to before you grab them in your hand, I have luckily only recieved minor tingles but bare power cords are life threatening.

I just had to make sure that all the cords were off the floor for ours and she was barred from access to rooms with power cords on the floor.

Keep up the handling, hopefully Chandler will start to relax.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2007,17:32   

Sorry, dudes, but the only rabbits I've ever had were frozen solid, and eventually ended up inside a couple of very large snakes. . . .

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2007,17:37   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Feb. 01 2007,01:32)
Sorry, dudes, but the only rabbits I've ever had were frozen solid, and eventually ended up inside a couple of very large snakes. . . .

I couldn't count the number I've skinned warm and stuffed, baked and eaten in a different life.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2007,20:40   

Re "Oh yes, power cord nibbling is a big problem with rabbits."

Shocking! ;)

Henry

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 10 2007,13:23   

It took me a while to remember which thread this was on but after a bit of searching, there it was! (Proof of god?)

Anyway, Background: I live in town. One of the neighbor kids came over to my house last night (he's 15ish, 9th grade) and asked me if I would show him how to skin a raccoon. Seems he had a dead one. He'd found it hit by a car but undamaged otherwise. (???) It was in a cooler at his house covered with ice.

His dad told him to ask me. He figured, since I worked with wildlife I'd know how to skin it. What would you have done? I'll tell you what I did after I see a few responses.

I'll tell you what I did first though. I went in the house, poured the kid a ginger beer and myself a wild turkey on the rocks, brought it outside, sat on the front steps and laughed for ten minutes straight, sipping my drink betwwen the tears.

P.S. I am a very proficient skinner. Back in the day, I was a  butcher (16 to 24 years old, that's 8 years for GoP and FtK) and I've skinned lots of things. He did not know this though.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 10 2007,14:18   

given I had the same skillset (skinning):

1. quickly disavow the child of his miscorrelation of skinning and working with wildlife.

2.  show him how to skin the thing.

3. make sure he skins it at HIS place.

4. pour another drink.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 10 2007,19:21   

Well, if ya don't want to guess, I'll tell you.

First, after my drink, I got an old skinning knife out of my basement and a sharpening stone. Then, we took a walk over to his house. I had dad get me another drink and jr. and I went to the sink to learn how to sharpen a knife.

The whole time he was yappin about how I had to go see the raccoon it was sooooo cool. But A. the knife was seriously dull and B. I was still trying to figure out what I was going to do. Dad came back with the drink -I shouldn't have let him choose, Vodka and orange juice :( - and asked if I skinned all the deer we pick up off the highway or if the younger guys do that. I told him that we are a highly specialized agency and that I deal more with fish than roadkill but we have an elite team of deerskinners who work 24/7 to make sure they got skinned when they were still fresh. (I did spend some time talking about rabies though) They bought it hook, etc. I didn't tell them till later that there aren't any deerskinners where I work. It took jr. a long long time to get the knife even moderately sharp so I finally finished up for him. Then, with him bouncing around (dad too) and a set of thick rubber gloves for all three of us I walked out to the garage with them.

One thing about skinning: it's a lot harder with the viscera still inside an animal. If the animal is bloated, it's real real important not to pop the belly. Stinky.

We got the cooler out to the back yard, pulled out the dead ratty thing (spring isn't the right time of year for good pelts) I skinned it's belly, started the legs and under its tail and gave the knife to jr. Dad went and got me Another drink -too strong, oops...- while I explained technique to the kid. He moved pretty slow and it was a fairly warm evening so rocky raccoon started getting a little bigger. By this time, I was paying a little less attention. Jr was putting holes all over Rocky so I cut off the tail and went up the backbone and gave him back the knife. I told him not to try to skin the head just to cut off the hide right there. I finished my drink. Jr. misunderstood me right about the time I was explaining to him and dad that there's no deer skinning crew and he decided to try to cut off the head and leave it in the skin.


I will never ever ever help a neighbor kid try to skin roadkill again in my life. My wife made me shower twice. Jr. vomited.

They did get a skin which I refused to help them tan, told them to learn how on the internet, scrape and salt. That's all the better I could do at that point. Rocky went into a hole in the backyard, (deep).

I was drunk. I couldn't help laughing. Dad wasn't happy. etc.

So, when the neigbor kid asks you to skin a raccon, don't drink vodka and orange juice. That's the moral.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
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