Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::Intellectually Honest Christians?

Posted: Jan. 18 2007,20:51

Deadman:

Quote

Because my interest was almost analytically dispassionate

Yeah. Mine was strictly a scientific endeavor, too.

Although more toward the recklessly hedonistic than the analytically dispassionate end of the, um, spectrum.

(Yo, Stevie! What's with the past tense up there, eh?)

ScaryFacts

Posts: 337
Joined: Aug. 2006

Posted: Jan. 18 2007,21:00

Golly, I go away for a couple days and you guys turn this place into a party shack. �Can't your mother and I go away and trust you not to make a mess of the place?

You're all grounded.

skeptic

Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

Posted: Jan. 18 2007,22:21

Actually, Scary, I've been watching with interest. It seems that everybody is looking, dare I say searching, for something more, something deeper and more meaningful that the same old same old. Maybe we're all not as far apart as we think we just use different methods to get there.

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Posted: Jan. 19 2007,01:55

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 18 2007,22:21)

Actually, Scary, I've been watching with interest. It seems that everybody is looking, dare I say searching, for something more, something deeper and more meaningful that the same old same old. Maybe we're all not as far apart as we think we just use different methods to get there.

On the contrary dear Skeptic, I have found it! And I don't even have to stand on streetcorners and pass out pamphlets.

I am highly skeptical of stories of permanent damage from LSD, Psilocybin, THC or mescaline unless it was from some absurd dose that might have done in a town. And frankly, I wouldn't believe even that without evidence.. I bet there are other things, including vitamin deficiencies, alcohol abuse, other drug use mixed all together going on in those cases. Or they weren't ok to start with. Yes, the awareness of the universe outside ourselves can be scary and those burdened with excessive guilt from religion or other forms of abuse are not ideal candidates for tripping but ultimately, you do come down. The bad part is, what you are left with is a new perspective. A new knowledge. That knowledge can be painful no doubt.

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Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

Posted: Jan. 19 2007,08:12

Quote (BWE @ Jan. 19 2007,01:55)

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 18 2007,22:21)

Actually, Scary, I've been watching with interest. �It seems that everybody is looking, dare I say searching, for something more, something deeper and more meaningful that the same old same old. �Maybe we're all not as far apart as we think we just use different methods to get there.

On the contrary dear Skeptic, I have found it! And I don't even have to stand on streetcorners and pass out pamphlets.

I am highly skeptical of stories of permanent damage from LSD, Psilocybin, THC or mescaline unless it was from some absurd dose that might have done in a town. And frankly, I wouldn't believe even that without evidence.. I bet there are other things, including vitamin deficiencies, alcohol abuse, other drug use mixed all together going on in those cases. Or they weren't ok to start with. Yes, the awareness of the universe outside ourselves can be scary and those burdened with excessive guilt from religion or other forms of abuse are not ideal candidates for tripping but ultimately, you do come down. The bad part is, what you are left with is a new perspective. A new knowledge. That knowledge can be �painful no doubt.

OK 2 things here I feel could be said.

1. Skeptic you have made a statement I think I can agree with �there are many ways to get there etc�, as Lenny and various Zen other style writers as well as some here have said, the journey can be via many different paths and one size does not fit all. Meditation for me was a complete loss, I�d rather have a great meal and sex, however 50 completely different jobs and full immersion in various sub-cultures, life styles and foreign lands, was to say the least for me enlightening.
Get on the boat, kick away the gangplank and leave behind your attachments.
The subject is rich, fascinating and well represented in Myth. Many versions of Buddhism include the ferry metaphor in various forms, depending which branch of the mythology. In Greek Mythology the last of lifes journeys across the river Styx seems quaint now in the age of Jet travel but the mere act of crossing a river on a boat resonates each time I do it, that is how Myth works, it resonates. The Egyptians had a complex but nevertheless easily understood life and end of life journey where each man and woman new exactly what had to be done in life and at the end to complete their journey. Christian Mythology is no different, it is still Myth, not a lie but a story which is only meant to be taken as fact in the same way �True Detective� or UFO stories are, purely representational.

Creation and rebirth myths in practically every culture going back to the most ancient almost all include the snake. That makes sense when you see a snake shedding its skin or you come across a discarded one in the wild. Has that happened to you? Did your dog start doing very strange things? My cats sniffed a freshly discarded snake skin over a meter long and gave it a very wide berth, quite amusing to watch. Do you see now how the Myth starts? The mystery of life related as story passed down from generation to generation. Connection to nature as a bare foot human in a nonindustrial world is something that modern life does not afford us. With the underlying signs and symbols of mythology generated in cultures so foreign to our way of life today it is little wonder that those signs are almost meaningless in explaining our relationship to nature and the nature of us.

The power of transformation to almost �literally� shed ones past life and be completely renewed in a new �present� is one of the most powerful motifs in human mythology. A recently discovered �ancient Kalahari desert sacred site with a rock formation resembling a snake which had eyes and body carved in it and is surrounded by buried ancient artifacts �dated to around �70,000 years ago may be the earliest evidence yet of myth/religion in humans. The local tribes still have creation myths based on gigantic snakes making life giving creeks around the rock formation where that artifact is. The variety of creation mythology gives some idea of human creativity and the universal need to explain and bind together the tribe in belief. Today the language of earth and sky has no meaning if the horizon ends at the glass on the front of a TV set. Anyone then can define reality as anything they like and American Christian Fundamentalism is industrial strength magical reality with a horizon that ends around 10 feet from the viewer�s eyeballs. A snake that eats credit cards and sheds corrals of fear across the land, transforming people into sailors on puddles of ignorant bliss.

2. BWE did you say anything about moderation?

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

skeptic

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Posted: Jan. 19 2007,08:21

BWE, I will preface this with the understanding that I'm not a psychiatrist but a chemist, but I believe the final goal in the use of various substances (prescription or otherwise) is either escapism or the altered state. Ignoring escapism and focusing on the altered state we can see that there are various ways to acheive this including meditation, prayer, fasting, etc. I'm sure you're in agreement so far.

I would propose that this is derived from an underlying need to know. Even the basic metaphor of Adam and Eve and the Tree point to this idea. Science trys to tell us the whats and the hows but the really important questions to us are the Hows and the Whys. As to this, I heard a great quote last night and is sums it up for me:

"In my experience, science is not enough."

Now you're going to say that this is nothing more than a "God of the Gaps" argument and I will counter saying that is a vast oversimplification. We're not just dealing with a current lack of understanding but fundamental limitations on our ability to understand. You may be opposed to one particular method or book but at that point all decisions are personal and up to the individual to decide what supplies the most satisfying answer to the Why. It is telling that you see those involved with religion as unnecessarily saddled with guilt and shame. Is this how you felt? Could it be possible that for you religion didn't offer the most satisfying answer and leave it at that?

Now I know I've opened the door for Lenny to accuse me of trying to impose authority or order where it doesn't exist. Don't you do the same thing when you invoke concepts of Unity and Oneness? Aren't these just generic versions of that same order?

In the end, we're all searching for the big answers and I think even atheists fall into this category. In fact, at the risk of inciting violence, I would say that there really are no such thing as atheists it just becomes a question of what words you use to answer the Why questions. Call it human nature, but it appears that we've all been cursed with the need to know and understand so we can evaluate our place in this wonderous universe. My only hope is that we all find an answer that is sincerely satisfying so that we can attain as much as this world has to offer. Kumbaya, my friends.

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Posted: Jan. 19 2007,08:51

Skeptic I quite agree

"In my experience, most peoples experience is not enough."

That is where religion steps in, it reduces the need for knowledge and experience and provides a small hole through which to view reality and a narcotic to dull the senses.
An extremely useful tool for social control. The minute religion starts giving answers will be the time reality as we know it will end.
Ignorance is bliss.

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Louis

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Posted: Jan. 19 2007,08:58

Skeptic,

Simply put you're assuming your conclusions a bit. The simple fact that some (not all by any means) have a desire for something that we could loosely call "spiritual" is not evidence that such a "spiritual" thing exists. It's not evidence it doesn't exist either.

When I speak about "oneness" or "unity" what I mean is very prosaic by "spiritual" standards. I mean that we arbitrarily put things in boxes (a consequence of our evolution btw) and that those boxes whilst potentially useful tools in their own right are nonetheless arbitrary. If you pick a molecule of oxygen whizzing about by my head there is no great void or impenetrable barrier between that molecule and one chelated by my haemoglobin, it's just atoms all the way! The fact that I choose to define myself as seperate from that "external" molecule is a definition of convenience, and a good and useful one, one that has evolved and has been evolved, but nonetheless my sense of "seperate" is still convenient.

Incidentally this has always been one of my curiosities about teleportation. We want to teleport a person from A to B. How do we tell the machine what to teleport? No one has ever come up with a good answer to that AFAIK. Maybe that's just my ignorance of computing for example.

Humans are evolved entities, we have feelings and yearnings because they are useful or because they are neutral passengers or current cooption of old tricks. None of which necessarily proves the existence of those things we think we are yearning for. A desire for a "godlike" relationship could be simply a lingering desire for the security of childhood. I'm not saying it IS, I'm saying it could be. We owe ourselves at least the investigation.

As for your comment about there are no atheists, sorry chum but you are WAY off base! A "spiritual yearning" even if universally present in the human species (which it by no means is btw) is not a "belief in god or gods". atheists lack a belief in a deity or series of deities. Nothing more. Nothing less. I am an atheist, I don't believe in any sort of deity, I lack a god belief. Do I have any spiritual yearnings? Not in any sense that wouldn't do severe injustice to the word "spiritual"! Does that mean I lack comprehension of those of us who do? No. Why? Because I have the same yearnings but I don't mystify them or attribute them to unknowable things outside of nature. I examine them and am content not to have a perfect answer, just to examine them until I do.

It's like working in the lab. I'd love to walk into the lab and have the natural product I am trying to make sat on the bench for me, but it would defeat the purpose of the lab and the researcher! If we could magic synthetic targets into existence, no research would be required. That's why ascribing a desire to know or understand to some mystery spiritual or supernatural entity or force is a fundamental abrogation of our responsibility to enquire. It's like finding your natural product on the bench waiting for you and doing no work to make it, and also doing no analysis to prove it is the natural product you claim it is. Magical thinking of this kind is the END of inquiry, not a beginning. It is an assumption of the answer before even asking the question.

If one day god evidence turns up, goody! If it doesn't, goody! I don't care which, but I do care that we have developed a decent synthetic route, have fully characterised our intermediates, hopefully done a decent piece of research and made damned sure our natural product is what we say it is before we are brave enough to publish.

Incidentally, you have repeatedly said you are chemist. What sort? Where? When? How? etc

Louis

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Bye.

Mike PSS

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Posted: Jan. 19 2007,09:23

I think skeptics post begins to bridge the gap between "personal" and "tribal" reactions to religion and science.

I re-read the thread and it began by looking at world religions, populations, and aspects of those orginizations. �The discussion has since been narrowed to examining the internal, personal interpretations of reality and religion.

k.e states... �

Quote

Today the language of earth and sky has no meaning if the horizon ends at the glass on the front of a TV set. Anyone then can define reality as anything they like and American Christian Fundamentalism is industrial strength magical reality with a horizon that ends around 10 feet from the viewer�s eyeballs.

I think if the discussion is limited (focused) on personal experiences then this statement can be applied to all people, not just fundamentalists. �I've met a few hobos in my life and they are quite happy with their existance because everything beyond their basic survival (10 foot pole universe) is not even thought about. �Talk about intellectually honest.

But skeptic starts to bring back the tribal aspect of religion. �

Quote

"In my experience, science is not enough."

Now you're going to say that this is nothing more than a "God of the Gaps" argument and I will counter saying that is a vast oversimplification. �We're not just dealing with a current lack of understanding but fundamental limitations on our ability to understand. �You may be opposed to one particular method or book but at that point all decisions are personal and up to the individual to decide what supplies the most satisfying answer to the Why. �It is telling that you see those involved with religion as unnecessarily saddled with guilt and shame. �Is this how you felt? �Could it be possible that for you religion didn't offer the most satisfying answer and leave it at that?

I agree that in an environment with free choice a person can choose which ~~stories~~ methods to believe to answer the Why? question. �But if someone chooses a religious environment then there seems to be some "baggage" to go along with the answers to the Why? question. �As an example I'll ask;

k.e: �You said...

Quote

The local tribes still have creation myths based on gigantic snakes making life giving creeks around the rock formation where that artifact is.

It looks like the local tribes haven't changed their creation story for 70,000 years. �How many dissenting voices with alternative creation stories (or lack thereof) have been expressed within those tribes in that time?

What I'm saying is that the acceptance of a religion tends to bring that person into the tribe. �And tribal pressures take on new influences for the person.

I argue that science is a neutral venue that offers explanations to phenomenae that ALL people can reproduce for themselves. Regardless of the "baggage" of your belief system. However some tribes will resist the results because it goes against established tribal practices.

If you are truly an Intellectually Honest Christian then you have to address all the evidence that is discovered in a coherent, scientific framework because once there is evidence on the table then it's no longer religious in nature.

Russell

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Posted: Jan. 19 2007,10:46

"spiritual"
That's one of those words that, I suspect, has no meaning. Or has "private" meanings to each individual that uses the word; which is pretty much the same as having no meaning.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

Steverino

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Posted: Jan. 19 2007,11:05

Skeptic posted (although not his quote):

"In my experience, science is not enough."

Question:

1. Why not?

Are we that needy that we need to have some type of reason or challenge for our existence? Does that some how make our lives more valuable or noble than that of other life forms? Are we just feeding our collective ego? Does gravity or mathematics need a "why"?

I read a story on another blog about a Christian student who decided to challenge his beliefs so, after he graduated from a Christian Academy (high school) he decided to attend a secular university. One of his main observations was how other students who were not Christian or religious at all, lived a moral life. He wondered under what rules or obligations prevented them from acting out or living immorally. Why weren�t they just running amok?

Maybe because, what you see is, what you get�that�s all there is.

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- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

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Posted: Jan. 19 2007,12:13

Quote (ke @ a,a)

I�d rather have a great meal and sex,

Duh. Who wouldn't?

Quote

Get on the boat, kick away the gangplank and leave behind your attachments.

The real meat here. Sure, the snake is out there but in the breif space between birth and death, aren't there funner things to do than worry about it? The farther you get from the snake, the deeper your puddle of ignorant bliss until it becomes an ocean without horizons. No safe port but you can see forever.

Moderation: Practice it. Just say sometimes.

Skeptic

Quote

Now I know I've opened the door for Lenny to accuse me of trying to impose authority or order where it doesn't exist. Don't you do the same thing when you invoke concepts of Unity and Oneness? Aren't these just generic versions of that same order?

No. religion is a generic version of Blink � brand blinders to these concepts. It replaces reality with symbols and, in our modern world, it blurs the line between reality and the abstractions of tv, economics, political ideology and norms.

Quote

In the end, we're all searching for the big answers and I think even atheists fall into this category. In fact, at the risk of inciting violence, I would say that there really are no such thing as atheists it just becomes a question of what words you use to answer the Why questions. Call it human nature, but it appears that we've all been cursed with the need to know and understand so we can evaluate our place in this wonderous universe. My only hope is that we all find an answer that is sincerely satisfying so that we can attain as much as this world has to offer. Kumbaya, my friends.

Why is the xian god any different than any other god? The whole point of this discussion is that the big Why Questions are mostly irrelevant and the result of a self-centered perspective that blocks much of experience from the observer. The thing that makes science so interesting is that you don't start with an answer and you don't try to answer what you can't define. As a consequence of examining the natural world, humans have realized that our religions were just feeble attempts to answer those questions. So, by dropping those questions and focusing on what we can observe, we allow for experience. Kind of a "be here now" on a memetic level.

So, depending how you define xian, I still don't think you can be intellectually honest.

And again, what the heck makes any god better than any other?

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Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

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Posted: Jan. 19 2007,17:27

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 19 2007,08:21)

Now I know I've opened the door for Lenny to accuse me of trying to impose authority or order where it doesn't exist.

Don't you do the same thing when you invoke concepts of Unity and Oneness

Yep.

Nope.

As In noted before, NOBODY can tell you how to be yourself. Not even God can do that.

And for SURE, no Book can do that.

PS: Sorry for my prolonged absence -- my cable modem is malfunctioning, so my Internet access has been on-again off-again all week (mostly off-again).

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

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Posted: Jan. 19 2007,17:32

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 19 2007,08:21)

"In my experience, science is not enough."

Um, not enough for WHAT . . . . ?

You are still pushing a window between yourself and the sky.

You're certainoly entirely free to do that, of course. Just don't insist that everyone ELSE look through your window, too. (shrug)

Ever notice that fundie Christians have the constant unending task of converting everyone else to their opinions?

Ever notice that Buddhists and Taoists and Zen practitioners, don't (and, indeed, deny that they even HAVE anything to teach anyone else)?

Ever wonder why that is?

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

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Posted: Jan. 22 2007,17:30

Why is xian any different from any other book?

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Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

Mike PSS

Posts: 428
Joined: Sep. 2006

Posted: Jan. 22 2007,19:23

Quote (BWE @ Jan. 22 2007,18:30)

Why is xian any different from any other book?

I would put it up there with Joyce's Ulysses for readability. After a few pages of the writing style you just have to put it down, blink your eyes, and focus on something else to get your mind back to reality.

I've tried reading Ulysses three times and never made it past page 50.

I've read much more of the bible, but that was with some "explanatory notes" on the side. It becomes less of a chore and more of a story (depending of course on the author of the notes).

On the other hand, you have in Ulysses the original authors words. Whereas the bible is a copy of a transcript of interpretation of a scroll.

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Posted: Jan. 22 2007,20:50

Quote (Mike PSS @ Jan. 22 2007,19:23)

I would put it up there with Joyce's Ulysses for readability. After a few pages of the writing style you just have to put it down, blink your eyes, and focus on something else to get your mind back to reality.

Now now, that isn't fair --- after all, the King James version is after all written in centuries-old English. "Beowulf" or "The Canterbury Tales" are just as difficult to read.

And Shakespeare isn't exactly light reading, either.

There are, of course, translations of the Bible in modern English. I guess they're not holy enough for the fundies, though.

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

avocationist

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Posted: Jan. 22 2007,21:50

Is it true that Wesley is a Christian?

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Posted: Jan. 22 2007,22:47

Quote (Mike PSS @ Jan. 22 2007,19:23)

Quote (BWE @ Jan. 22 2007,18:30)

Why is xian any different from any other book?

I would put it up there with Joyce's Ulysses for readability. �After a few pages of the writing style you just have to put it down, blink your eyes, and focus on something else to get your mind back to reality.

I've tried reading Ulysses three times and never made it past page 50.

I've read much more of the bible, but that was with some "explanatory notes" on the side. �It becomes less of a chore and more of a story (depending of course on the author of the notes).

On the other hand, you have in Ulysses the original authors words. �Whereas the bible is a copy of a transcript of interpretation of a scroll.

Mike I hope you get to read this but I had a similar thought about Joyce's "Finnegans Wake".

I rather think his whole purpose was to write a bible in reverse, or more precisely to conceive a set of stories to be received by the reader on an aural plane by Joyce personally telling the story orally. With its images very consciously constructed just as the bible came into being, a product of the imagination. Spoken and sung in the language between deep sleep and sub awakening, of dream. Like an Aboriginal dreamtime story, reality is sung into existence. A mixture of rich fantasy, of metaphor and between the lines meaning. Using rhyming and crossword like clues for almost every line. Even the title fin again, to stop and restart in a circle (fin was always projected on the screen at the end of every movie in those days too, another Joycean touch) . Joyce believed life was a repeating tale, his 2 protagonists Shem and Shaun are the prototypical sons of Abraham engaged in a psychological battle between knowing and not knowing. The limit as always is the reader, meaning can only come by freeing the objective mind.

The countless mythological cross references with elements of '20's and '30's popular culture which have no meaning now, does show how the bibles readers construct from a non current or objective language with mixed fact AS fiction with outdated meaning and unrecognized mythological symbols that can only be understood by relearning a past culture.

Joyce's "Finnegans Wake" is a practice manual, a language tool, a gift for future generations that assists the user in decoding dream and poetic language. Just as the bible is meant to be read.

When words lose their ability to convey only the very basic ideas of Orwellian "good think" and bibliolaters think the OT is fact, when it is the Imagined History of the Jewish people Joyce�s work will remain as voyage of discovery (ultimately of ones-self) equal to a Homeric journey.

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Mike PSS

Posts: 428
Joined: Sep. 2006

Posted: Jan. 22 2007,23:42

Quote (k.e @ Jan. 22 2007,23:47)

Quote (Mike PSS @ Jan. 22 2007,19:23)

Quote (BWE @ Jan. 22 2007,18:30)

Why is xian any different from any other book?

I would put it up there with Joyce's Ulysses for readability. �After a few pages of the writing style you just have to put it down, blink your eyes, and focus on something else to get your mind back to reality.

I've tried reading Ulysses three times and never made it past page 50.

I've read much more of the bible, but that was with some "explanatory notes" on the side. �It becomes less of a chore and more of a story (depending of course on the author of the notes).

On the other hand, you have in Ulysses the original authors words. �Whereas the bible is a copy of a transcript of interpretation of a scroll.

Mike I hope you get to read this but I had a similar thought about Joyce's "Finnegans Wake".

I rather think his whole purpose was to write a bible in reverse, or more precisely to conceive a set of stories to be received by the reader on an aural plane by Joyce personally telling the story orally. With its images very consciously constructed just as the bible came into being, a product of the imagination. Spoken and sung in the language between deep sleep and sub awakening, of dream. Like an Aboriginal dreamtime story, reality is sung into existence. A mixture of rich fantasy, of metaphor and between the lines meaning. Using rhyming and crossword like clues for almost every line. Even the title fin again, to stop and restart in a circle (fin was always projected on the screen at the end of every movie in those days too, another Joycean touch) . Joyce believed life was a repeating tale, his 2 protagonists Shem and Shaun are the prototypical sons of Abraham engaged in a psychological battle between knowing and not knowing. The limit as always is the reader, meaning can only come by freeing the objective mind.

The countless mythological cross references with elements of '20's and '30's popular culture which have no meaning now, does show how the bibles readers construct from a non current or objective language with mixed fact AS fiction with outdated meaning and unrecognized mythological symbols that can only be understood by relearning a past culture.

Joyce's "Finnegans Wake" is a practice manual, a language tool, a gift for future generations that assists the user in decoding dream and poetic language. Just as the bible is meant to be read.

When words lose their ability to convey only the very basic ideas of Orwellian "good think" and bibliolaters think the OT is fact, when it is the Imagined History of the Jewish people Joyce�s work will remain as voyage of discovery (ultimately of ones-self) equal to a Homeric journey.

Well you certainly got more out of it than I did. �

In fact, your flowing descriptive prose has awakened a need for me to at least find the book again and crack it open to see if what you just conveyed could be present and I just "missed" it the first time I flipped through (oh so many years ago).

From an intellectual standpoint I'm so left-brained that I limp when I think. I don't "experiance" art and literature I just interpret the words and meaning. My analysis, although usually correct, is more analytical in nature rather than emotional.

But your point about knowing and understanding the referential nature of the environment he wrote ('20s and '30s) is, I think, key to understanding the story itself. I'm an avid history reader and knowing and understanding the social, economic, political, and technological nature of the environment surrounding a story is very important.

I apply this to the recent pop-culture elevation of DaVinci. DaVinci wasn't the end-all be-all of human existance but his environment (16th century Italy) was a unique melting pot of ideas and actions within the city states that was able to support DaVinci and MANY OTHERS. Attributions to DaVinci tend to gloss over the social/cultural situation to focus only on the man.

Anyway, I'm sure if I could interpret the story in the same prosaic way you just did I would whole heartedly disagree with your interpretation and call you names.

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Posted: Jan. 23 2007,00:10

The best journeys can be sometimes even better with a guide. And I'm just a beginner.

Get hold of Joseph Campbell's "A skeleton key to Finnegans Wake".

here is a helpful reading list....ah...it's a lifetimes work

http://www.jcf.org/readinglist.php

I have had to box up the engineering side of my brain to allow space for some of the imagery of art and non linear mind reading of some of the bibliolators around thses parts so I understand your position, pity I can't make any money out of it, I do it for pleasure.

edit added

Quote

Anyway, I'm sure if I could interpret the story in the same prosaic way you just did I would whole heartedly disagree with your interpretation and call you names.

and vice versa

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

keiths

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Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: Jan. 23 2007,03:58

Quote (avocationist @ Jan. 22 2007,21:50)

Is it true that Wesley is a Christian?

Yes. �For example, see his response to Dembski's claim that the Dover decision would "galvanize" the Christian community in support of ID.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

Posted: Jan. 23 2007,07:16

Quote (avocationist @ Jan. 22 2007,21:50)

Is it true that Wesley is a Christian?

Yes.

Most anti-IDers are theists.

Me, I'm a Tantric shidoshi.

You, are a New Age wanna-be.

(Are you the sort who wander onto Indian reservations and sit next to them to "feel their power"? snicker, giggle)

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: Jan. 23 2007,10:42

I'm a unitarian who practices zen buddhism

I actually go to church now and again.

Where did Skeptic and Scary go? I want to know why, given the multiplicity of options, they would choose a desert chief for a god? I personally want my god to be more like Poseidon. Or maybe more like... Hmmm. Well, I guess I'm happy with the way things are.

Maybe it's hubris or some delusional thinking, but I think my god is better than the xian god. Lots better. But my god doesn't help you out in a pinch. Thats the rub. I am simply privilaged to have the opportunity to be here. Worship gets me nowhere. That's a human thing, not a god thing. Reverance too but reverance is an inescapable human response to having the privilege.

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Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

Arden Chatfield

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: Jan. 23 2007,11:33

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Jan. 22 2007,20:50)

Quote (Mike PSS @ Jan. 22 2007,19:23)

I would put it up there with Joyce's Ulysses for readability. �After a few pages of the writing style you just have to put it down, blink your eyes, and focus on something else to get your mind back to reality.

Now now, that isn't fair --- after all, the King James version is after all written in centuries-old English. �"Beowulf" or "The Canterbury Tales" are just as difficult to read.

And Shakespeare isn't exactly light reading, either.

There are, of course, translations of the Bible in modern English. �I guess they're not holy enough for the fundies, though.

Yes, many modern fundies have come to start fetishizing the KJV. They ignore all its translation problems and the fact that its archaic style will inevitably distort/hide meaning. (He11, the KJV was *deliberately* written in archaic language -- even then, people didn't talk that way anymore.) They seem to think Jesus spoke English. And they REALLY don't like it when it's pointed out that King James was gay. �

This ties into sth. I think Lenny said, that certain Christians actually worship a book, not Jesus. But Islam has done this since day one -- in Islam they say pointblank that Allah's word can ONLY be understood in the Classical Arabic. Never mind the fact that for a couple centuries there was no consensus on how to interpret the Arabic of the Koran and that the modern redaction we now have is basically an educated guess.

Fetishizing words as a religious object beyond their meaning has always set off my bullshit detector, but that's just me.

As for reading the Bible, there's big swaths of it I've never read, but the Revised Standard edition, which came out a hundred years ago in the US is quite readable for the four Gospels, which is the main part I've read. There isn't much point to slogging thru the KJV if meaning is what you're after, IMHO.

Oh, and Beowulf is 900 years older than the KJV, so it's MUCH harder to read.

It's funny, tho, when Buddhist scriptures first started to be translated into English 120+ years ago, they translated them into a really annoying pseudo-KJV English full of thees and thous. I guess that was seen as necessary to make them look 'serious'. Happily this fad has passed.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: Jan. 23 2007,11:47

Buddist translations of any quality are almost entirely post 1962. The best way to figure it out is to go to a temple and get involved.

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Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

Arden Chatfield

Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: Jan. 23 2007,11:57

Quote (BWE @ Jan. 23 2007,11:47)

Buddist translations of any quality are almost entirely post 1962. The best way to figure it out is to go to a temple and get involved.

Actually, some of the best translations are just the last 10 years. Wisdom Publications has much of the best stuff, I think, but a lot of other good stuff is available primarily on line. I sort of figured out where the good stuff is on my own, but the temple I started going to happily confirmed a lot of the conclusions I'd come to.

Half the problems with the really old translations is the misguided compulsion to archaize the language. The other half is just that the English speaking world is still in its infancy in understanding so many of the relevant concepts. Even translations done in the last 5 years show huge variation depending on the sensibilities of the translator. The field is still in a lot of flux, as it were...

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: Jan. 23 2007,12:35

I always assumed that the translators just didn't have any relative concept to use. They couldn't grok what they read so they tried to use literal translations where they couldn't paraphrase. I remember in Spanish having to translate passages from Cervantes and reading everyone's translations to the class. I was surprised at how much the translator's thoughts and ideas came through.

Mine was, er, less than stellar. It's fortunate my life didn't depend on it. I enjoyed it more in spanish perhaps but I am glad that there are excellent translations available.

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Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

Posted: Jan. 23 2007,18:25

Quote (BWE @ Jan. 23 2007,10:42)

I personally want my god to be more like Poseidon.

Given the choice, I'd like to have Astarte.

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Lou FCD

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Joined: Jan. 2006