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sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2006,16:05   

Quote
What can science say about a mother that drowns her five children one by one... nothing!


hmm.  what makes you say that?  your gross unfamiliarity with psychology?

can your total ignorance be any more glaring or amusing?

as to your motivations for posting here.

you're a sociopath.

look it up.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2006,16:30   

sir toejam,

You can play cute.  It doesn't bother me.  But can science tell us whether drowning one's kids is good or bad, wrong or right, justified or unjustified?  Can science tell why teachers want to teach 5 years olds about AIDS without reference to homosexuals or intravenous drug users?  What can science say about the Origins? Are these not situations that require answers?   I can go on and on with questions that science can give no answer.  You seem to be implying that science can give all the answers.  Sociopath?

  
UnMark



Posts: 97
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2006,16:50   

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 21 2006,21:58)
What can science say about a mother that drowns her five children one by one... nothing!

If, solely for the sake of argument, I accept this, what does the Bible say about this?
Psalms 137:9: " How blessed will be the one who grabs your babies and smashes them on a rock!"

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2006,19:21   

UnMark,

I don't know what the Bible says about such things, but I could imagine it's not held with righteous regard.  But more to the point, I don't need the Bible to tell me that a mother that drowns her 5 children in a methodically cruel way is evil and sick.  Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, science can only be neutral as such action merely represents a measurable phenomenon.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Science is great at some things and useless in others.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2006,20:17   

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 22 2006,01:21)
...  Science is great at some things and useless in others.

Very true. Science is good for discovering how things work. It is rubbish at evaluating subjective things.

Drowning your children would get you judged by peoples morals.

I would imagine a subject that tried to adress "everything" would be a tad unwieldy.

EDIT: By the way, does anyone know what is happening with "Suden Emergence Theory"? It was rumoured to be the next mask for creationism, should it lose it's ID one.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2006,20:28   

Stephen Elliot,

Then what of psychology?  Is science not delving into the subjective?  Does this mean that science is acquiring a value system in which some subjective enterprises are embraced while others are rejected?

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2006,21:15   

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 21 2006,21:58)
...
What can science say about a mother that drowns her five children one by one... nothing!  What can science say about my motivation for posting to this forum... nothing!  ...

H'mmmm. You say that then. and then contradictoraly say.

Quote

thordaddy


Stephen Elliot,

Then what of psychology?  Is science not delving into the subjective?  Does this mean that science is acquiring a value system in which some subjective enterprises are embraced while others are rejected?  


Psychology may be able to explain why someone may behave in a certain way, it does not say wether it is "right" or "wrong" to do so. That is the matter of morals.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2006,00:55   

I seem to recall that some of the early psychology was very subjective.  Modern psychologists are well aware of this now, and try and avoid it or take account of it.  Thus, when they do so, they are being scientific.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2006,02:23   

Can't we scientifically look at the evolution of culture and morality and see from whence the immoratily of drowning children arose?

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2006,02:38   

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 21 2006,21:58)
So back to the point.  How can a scientist speculate about ID's course of action when he has no knowledge of the subject and triumphantly claims as much.

Since no one else seems to have taken you to task on this, I'll take a shot at it.  Your assupmtion is wildly off base.  The truth is that nearly all of us here know and understand the subject very well.  Most of us have examined ID in depth and know exactly what it's made of.  This is not a case of something being dismissed out-of-hand.  Rather, we are constantly scrutinizing ID.  When we say "there is no there there", we do so after an extensive search for whatever "there" ID has to offer.

One of the main misconceptions among ID proponents is that ID hasn't been given a "fair shake" by the scientific community.  The reality is that it's been thoroughly shaken, stirred, poked, prodded, churned, filtered, weighed, sniffed, and sifted through before being deemed "thereless".

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2006,08:22   

Quote
What can science say about my motivation for posting to this forum... nothing!

So, it's God of the gaps, but, in this case, the 'gap' in question appears to reside between thordaddy's ears.

--------------
The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2006,08:25   

improvius, several of us haven't taken him to task on this because go back and look at what happens when someone does explain something to him. He misconstrues it and makes demands for more explanations. It only makes things worse.

   
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2006,20:25   

Stephen Elliot,

A contradiction needs to involve two declarative statements and not one statement with a follow-up question.

I should clarify that science can say something about a women who drowns her five children, but it seems it's limited to describing the action and parroting the women's thoughts about the situation.  Where's the real science, I wonder?  In essence, science is saying nothing profound on the situation.  It's a futile exercise that gives the illusion that science is breaking new barriers.

I brought up psychology because it was brought up as a rebuttal to my statement about science being incapable of saying enlightening things on certain subjects.  

Improvius,

I don't think the statement is any more off base than the very exact same thing being said about those there are supposedly ignorant of science and ToE in general.

If, as you say, science has thoroughly vetted IDT, what does it say of "faith" in a creator.  What's the conventional scientific wisdom?  Giant delusion?

CJ O'Brien,

I think the point should be clear.  Science has limitations and can't say anything about IDT.  If this is the case then some other human endeavor will seek to gain consensus on an answer.  But as science delves farther and farther into subjective phenomenon, there is "no there there" will be an insufficient answer.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2006,04:33   

Thordaddy,

You remind me of a "psychic". You tend to say something that is a bit "airy-fairy" then wait for a reply, then start defining/redefining what you said.

That is a fairly good debating trick. However, it doesn't realy belong on a forum such as this one.

Just about everyone here can already see that your posts are normaly vacuus.

  
qetzal



Posts: 311
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2006,10:02   

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 23 2006,02:25)
I should clarify that science can say something about a women who drowns her five children, but it seems it's limited to describing the action and parroting the women's thoughts about the situation.  Where's the real science, I wonder?  In essence, science is saying nothing profound on the situation.  It's a futile exercise that gives the illusion that science is breaking new barriers.


What if science could study the women's thoughts and actions, and thereby learn to predict which women might do that and when? Yep, that would be futile, wouldn't it.

Quote
If, as you say, science has thoroughly vetted IDT, what does it say of "faith" in a creator.  What's the conventional scientific wisdom?  Giant delusion?


The conventional scientific wisdom is simply that there is no scientific evidence of a creator. Anyone who chooses to have "faith" in a creator will have to base that "faith" on something other than scientific evidence. (By the way, why are we putting scare quotes on "faith?")

Quote
I think the point should be clear.  Science has limitations and can't say anything about IDT.


Yes, it can. It can say that ID"T" is not science. Which helps judges to say that ID"T" doesn't belong in public science classes. (By the way, I put scare quotes around "T" because we're talking about science, and ID is not a theory in any scientific sense.)

You yourself admitted that ID isn't science when you claimed that it isn't constrained by the rules of science.

Really, thordaddy, these are some of the dumbest comments I have yet seen. Do yourself a favor and think before you type.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2006,10:09   

Stephen Elliot,

I'm just trying to get the gist of what science can do and how it can claim that "ID isn't science."  

We now have those that claim that science (psychology) can say something about a unique event (a mother drowning her 5 children in a tub one by one), but it's unclear where or how prediction and experimentation come into play, ie. science?  It seems that this science is nothing more than an interpretation of the empirical evidence?  We have also now recognized that some other evaluating tool (morality/religion) is needed to say anything PROFOUND about this unique event and yet we don't call it science.  Why?

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2006,10:38   

qetzal opines,

Quote
What if science could study the women's thoughts and actions, and thereby learn to predict which women might do that and when? Yep, that would be futile, wouldn't it.


I would love to see the science that predicted a mother drowning here 5 children one by one in a tub.  Better yet, how about the experiments?

Next you say,

Quote
The conventional scientific wisdom is simply that there is no scientific evidence of a creator. Anyone who chooses to have "faith" in a creator will have to base that "faith" on something other than scientific evidence. (By the way, why are we putting scare quotes on "faith?")

I thought "science" used empirical evidence, ie. observation and experience, in which to utilize the scientific method?  And herein lies the problem.  Are you saying no empirical evidence exists period, or are you simply saying the empirical evidence doesn't qualify because it's not measurable and lies within the constraints of science?

Lastly you say,

[QUOTE]Yes, it can. It can say that ID"T" is not science. Which helps judges to say that ID"T" doesn't belong in public science classes. (By the way, I put scare quotes around "T" because we're talking about science, and ID is not a theory in any scientific sense.)

You yourself admitted that ID isn't science when you claimed that it isn't constrained by the rules of science.

Really, thordaddy, these are some of the dumbest comments I have yet seen. Do yourself a favor and think before you type.


Well, it seems we can't decide on what "science" is?  Is it a tool?  Is it truth?  What is it, scientist?  I don't see how one can truthfully claim that ID isn't a scientific theory when it clearly utilizes observation and experience including those observations and experiences of some of the greatest thinkers in human history.

But alas, you say science is constrained and I agree, but I don't agree that these constraints are set in stone.  Clearly they are not!  Both the definition of empirical evidence and observation/experience are continuously being liberalized, ie., expanded to incorporate more of what we observe and experience.  

You seem to be fighting a losing cause?

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2006,11:07   

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 23 2006,16:38)
You seem to be fighting a losing cause?

Oh man, there goes my new irony meter too, and I just bought it...

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2006,11:56   

Faid,

You don't seem to understand that ID will never be proven wrong, but can only be proven right.  You also don't seem to understand that the path to providing evidence for an IDer is within the EVER expanding scope of science.  The very same science you naively believe to be strict and static.  Once you bend the rules, you have no say in others bending the rules.  Get it?

  
Xavier du Barry



Posts: 4
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2006,12:27   

Thordaddy

You miss the point.

“Sexual identity is part of the stasis of reality,” says Behe. The subject is contextualised into a social realism that includes language as a whole. In a sense, Lacan’s model of subdialectic discourse suggests that the law is intrinsically used in the service of outmoded perceptions of society.

“Class is elitist,” says Sontag; however, according to Geoffrey, it is not so much class that is elitist, but rather the dialectic of class. If modern predialectic theory holds, we have to choose between subdialectic discourse and Marxist class. Therefore, Lacan uses the term ’structuralist discourse’ to denote the difference between reality and sexual identity.

If one examines social realism, one is faced with a choice: either reject Batailleist `powerful communication’ or conclude that discourse comes from communication, but only if neotextual dedeconstructivism is valid. Cameron implies that we have to choose between subdialectic discourse and dialectic capitalism. In a sense, Foucault uses the term ‘neotextual dedeconstructivism’ to denote the stasis, and hence the meaninglessness, of subdeconstructive class.

The characteristic theme of the works of Madonna is not, in fact, situationism, but presituationism. If social realism holds, we have to choose between subdialectic discourse and conceptualist discourse. Therefore, Lacan promotes the use of postcultural narrative to deconstruct sexism.

The primary theme of Drucker’s essay on subdialectic discourse is the bridge between society and class. It could be said that Sartre suggests the use of social realism to attack and modify society.

Hamburger holds that we have to choose between modern precapitalist theory and textual capitalism. In a sense, any number of narratives concerning not theory as such, but neotheory may be found.

The characteristic theme of the works of Madonna is the difference between narrativity and class. Thus, in Material Girl, Madonna denies neotextual dedeconstructivism; in Erotica, although, she affirms social realism.

The subject is interpolated into a neotextual dedeconstructivism that includes sexuality as a totality. Therefore, the main theme of Werther’s analysis of the subcultural paradigm of discourse is not narrative, but neonarrative.

A number of discourses concerning subdialectic discourse exist. But the primary theme of the works of Stone is a mythopoetical whole.

The premise of semanticist postcapitalist theory suggests that language is fundamentally impossible. It could be said that the subject is contextualised into a social realism that includes reality as a paradox.

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2006,13:34   

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 23 2006,17:56)
?

What I get is that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You seem to say that the fact ID can never be proven wrong and can only once (who knows?) be proven right makes it scientific for some reason. You seem to say that if you redefine "evidence" to mean just about anything anyone claims they perceive, redefine "empirical" to mean anything up to personal delirium, and redefine "intrepreting" to mean anything down to making stories up in your head, then ID can be considered science. And religion. Because religion would also be considered science. Or something. Then you say that we bend the rules.
Seriously, one post from that postmodernist generator above (seems quite a good one, btw) has more actual content than all your posts combined.

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2006,13:42   

Oh oh also: since, unlike religion, psychology can do no predictions and have nothing fundamental to say about the behavior of the mentally ill, then whaddaya say we let all those who have been deemed dangerous for themselves and others out of the mental institutions and send them to the nearest Christian colleges? Sounds a swell idea, don't it?

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Dante



Posts: 61
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2006,11:53   

Quote
Can we call this the "Alien Meth Lab" hypothosis?


If I had more time on my hands I could be petioning to get that taught in Kansas Science classes by dinner time.

Quote
You don't seem to understand that ID will never be proven wrong, but can only be proven right.


If it can't be proven wrong, is it still science?

Why don't you crawl back to whatever meth lab it was where your crack-whore mom gave birth to you? -ds

--------------
Dembski said it, I laughed at it, that settles it!

    
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,13:49   

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 23 2006,17:56)
Faid,

You don't seem to understand that ID will never be proven wrong, but can only be proven right.  You also don't seem to understand that the path to providing evidence for an IDer is within the EVER expanding scope of science.  The very same science you naively believe to be strict and static.  Once you bend the rules, you have no say in others bending the rules.  Get it?

Nope. You are the one missing the point. The FSM can also never be proven wrong, but it could be proven right.

This is what makes these claims unscientific.

The whole point of science theories is that they could be proven wrong.

The rest of your post meanders into confusion once again. Why are you unable to post simple ideas in a simple way?

Science is anything but static. The best theory/hypothesis changes regularly. Atoms where once considered indivisible, nuclear physics changed that. Newtonian gravity was considered correct and Einstein changed that.

These examples prove that the claim of science as dogma are lies. The most celebrated and rewarded scientists are the ones that overturn universally accepted ideas.

The only thing science demands is evidence. Provide that and scientists will happily abandon cherished ideas.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,13:59   

Dante,

The point is simple.  The theory of an intelligent designer will ALWAYS persist until we make that leap from theory to fact.  Science already admits that it cannot deny the existence of an IDer, but science can't admit to it either because there is NO empirical evidence.  This actually means that empirical evidence may exist, but it can't be "observed."  This in turn means it may be observed (faith/belief), but it cannot be measured.  This in turn means that the empirical evidence observed (faith/belief) can't be predicted and hence no experiments can be performed to give the empirical evidence observed measurable validity.  Yet, as we see, science readily makes predictions about unique phenomenon (psychology).

So in a nut shell, science will either make the final leap and except IDT as Origins "fact" or the debate will continue to rage.  It's a no win situation.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,14:07   

Quote (Xavier du Barry @ Mar. 23 2006,18:27)
Thordaddy

You miss the point.

“Sexual identity is part of the stasis of reality,” says Behe. The subject is contextualised into a social realism that includes language as a whole. In a sense, Lacan’s model of subdialectic discourse suggests that the law is intrinsically used in the service of outmoded perceptions of society...

Please stop doing that. I keep forgeting and trying to read the posts.

They are almost as bad as Thordaddy's.

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,14:34   

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 27 2006,19:59)
Dante,

The point is simple.  
[... :0  :(  ???  :angry:  :p  ;)  :(  :0  :0  :D ...]

Stephen, I think Xavier and Trolldaddy use the same generator.

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,14:45   

Quote (Faid @ Mar. 27 2006,20:34)
Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 27 2006,19:59)
Dante,

The point is simple.  
[... :0  :(  ???  :angry:  :p  ;)  :(  :0  :0  :D ...]

Stephen, I think Xavier and Trolldaddy use the same generator.

The difference is that Thordaddy believes he is thinking.

I supose he is in a way. Thordaddy certainly seems to spend a lot of time trying to make his posts difficult to read while posting a simple idea.

Xavier just generates nonsense. The fact that it difficult to distinguish a difference speaks volumes about Thordaddy.

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,14:56   

Well, in Xavier's defense, I don't think he's spamming around: He's just making fun of thordaddy's incoherrent posts. He's actually using a programm to generate its babble, I think: Looks like the Postmodernist Generator (can't find a link right now) but it seems better; I'd really like to know what it is.

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,15:13   

Faid and Stephen

What exactly are your complaints?  What are the flaws in thinking?  Please educate me?

Do you think IDT will become a "fact" of science or that the debate will continue to rage?  I don't see either of these possibilities as ludicrous.  In fact, they seem the ONLY two possibilities.  Please add more if you wish.

  
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