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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 5, Return To Teh Dingbat Buffet< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2014,10:11   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Oct. 31 2014,17:11)
Here we go again.  BANNINATION. It was bound to happen.

       
Quote

News October 31, 2014 at 3:53 pm

Thorton, based on 2 above, is no longer with us. Curious how few of Darwin’s supporters seem to understand that once one looks for laws instead of randomness, the meaning of evidence changes. (We know natural selection can do these wonders because evolution happened.) I don’t doubt Wagner would be cautious not to excite them.


What did Thorton do to deserve being EXPELLED?  He merely panned a new book that Denise was pimping without saying one word to or about her, only the argument in the book.

       
Quote
Thorton October 31, 2014 at 1:53 pm

           
Quote
The question “how does nature innovate?” often elicits a succinct but unsatisfying response – random mutations. Andreas Wagner first illustrates why random mutations alone cannot be the cause of innovations – the search space for innovations, be it at the level of genes, protein, or metabolic reactions is too large that makes the probability of stumbling upon all the innovations needed to make a little fly (let alone humans) too low to have occurred within the time span the universe has been around

Oh please, not the zombified remains of this stupid Creationist argument again.

Evolution doesn’t have to search the ginormous whole universe search space looking for innovations. All it does in each new generation is search the space immediately surrounding the existing working copy. If it finds a small improvement, it keeps it.

Good Lord but there are some moronic crackpots out there


Some things never change.    :(

To be fair, the "some moronic crackpots out there" comment might have been tried on for size and found to fit, therefore the banning.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2014,16:19   

Our buddy Barry Arrogant is back, from where we don't know but I am spreading the rumours that he was at bible camp.

One of his first acts was to write an OP claiming that the anti-ID arguments were like the Black Knight skit from The Holy Grail. He even created a new Darwinian Debating Device in its honour.

But the highlight of the comment thread so far is the GEM written by Gordon (KairosFocus) Mullings at comment 20:
Quote
KF at 20: “PS: I link from the OP here, here and also here; a substantial discussion can easily enough be had on the merits of fact and logic if there is any genuine interest. Prediction: none such will happen.”

What makes this the highlight is that he is absolutely, 100% accurate in his prediction. But that is not because substantial arguments couldn't be made against these posts, but because the three OPs he linked to either don't allow comments, or the ability to comment has been stopped.

What a pathetic snivelling coward.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2014,22:29   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Nov. 03 2014,07:35)
Quote
Gordon Mullings: KS, do the words policy + advisor mean anything to you?


At least the government of Montserrat is not asking him to advise on science. Maybe they know something that UD doesn't.

That shouldn't be hard.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2014,04:41   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 04 2014,04:29)
Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Nov. 03 2014,07:35)
 
Quote
Gordon Mullings: KS, do the words policy + advisor mean anything to you?


At least the government of Montserrat is not asking him to advise on science. Maybe they know something that UD doesn't.

That shouldn't be hard.

"Acting on the valuable policy advice of Mr Mullings, the Government of Montserrat today announced the prohibition of random genetic mutation, unlicensed volcanic activity, and impure thoughts."



Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 08 2014,11:19

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2014,09:49   

Quote (Amadan @ Nov. 04 2014,02:41)
Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 04 2014,04:29)
Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Nov. 03 2014,07:35)
 
Quote
Gordon Mullings: KS, do the words policy + advisor mean anything to you?


At least the government of Montserrat is not asking him to advise on science. Maybe they know something that UD doesn't.

That shouldn't be hard.

"Acting on the valuable policy advice of Mr Mullings, the Government of Montserrat today announced the prohibition of random genetic mutation, unlicensed volcanic activity, and impure thoughts."

POTW

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2014,10:04   

gordo has posted yet another Comments Off, projectile vomited mess:

http://tinyurl.com/pb3w2e3....pb3w2e3



--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2014,19:53   

With Gordon as a policy advisor, Montserrat won't be an island of function much longer.



Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 08 2014,11:20

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2014,20:53   

Quote (Driver @ Nov. 04 2014,19:53)
With Gordon as a policy advisor, Montserrat won't be an island of function much longer.

PotW

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2014,22:06   

You'll find a Gordon Mullings on LinedIn with skills to run a country on his own:    
Quote
Skills
   Energy
   Leadership
   Renewable Energy
   Strategy
   Project Management
   Business Development
   Management
   Strategic Planning
   Sustainability
   Capacity Building
   Change Management
   Business Strategy
   Program Management
   Leadership Development
   Coaching
   Public Speaking
   Energy Efficiency
   Research
   Project Planning
   Organizational...
   Data Analysis
   Nonprofits


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,00:30   

Gpuccio:

Quote
That statement is true, and it could be easily falsified in a Popperian sense: just give me a 600 character long string, encrypted if you prefer, which has a perfect sense in any known language, and which has been generated by a random character generating software (with the evidence, I will not believe you on your word alone! :) ).


I'd prefer to modify it to 10 seperate 600 character strings, *some* or which are random some of which are not.

If he's serious then we should take him up. Obviously we wont use simple substitution ciphers. We may create our own.

Anyone in?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,02:39   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 05 2014,00:30)
Gpuccio:

Quote
That statement is true, and it could be easily falsified in a Popperian sense: just give me a 600 character long string, encrypted if you prefer, which has a perfect sense in any known language, and which has been generated by a random character generating software (with the evidence, I will not believe you on your word alone! :) ).


I'd prefer to modify it to 10 seperate 600 character strings, *some* or which are random some of which are not.

If he's serious then we should take him up. Obviously we wont use simple substitution ciphers. We may create our own.

Anyone in?

Ha! Encrypt the first paragraph of Borges' The Tower of Babel. Or, if you can find it, Dave Langford's The Net of Babel.

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,02:50   

Quote (sparc @ Nov. 04 2014,22:06)
You'll find a Gordon Mullings on LinedIn with skills to run a country on his own:    
Quote
Skills
   Energy
   Leadership
   Renewable Energy
   Strategy
   Project Management
   Business Development
   Management
   Strategic Planning
   Sustainability
   Capacity Building
   Change Management
   Business Strategy
   Program Management
   Leadership Development
   Coaching
   Public Speaking
   Energy Efficiency
   Research
   Project Planning
   Organizational...
   Data Analysis
   Nonprofits

Does the "Nonprofits" skill mean he's skilled in making a loss?

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
BillB



Posts: 388
Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,07:16   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 05 2014,02:53)
Quote (Driver @ Nov. 04 2014,19:53)
With Gordon as a policy advisor, Montserrat won't be an island of function much longer.

PotW

+1

  
GinoB



Posts: 14
Joined: Nov. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,09:40   

Just peeked in at UD.  Looks like the only regular pro-science poster left is Keith S, the rest seem to have been vanished.  The usual IDiots are all emboldened and are bringing the serious tard.  Between Joe with his usual foul mouth, Andre with his OCD hang up, Vishnu the engineer, mapou, phoodoo, Poochie with his dFIASCO I'll bet there aren't a dozen functioning neurons between them.  Of course there's the two pillars of ID science, BA77 and KF doing their usual things.

In less than a day the place reverted back to being the same old no-science heavily censored slimepit it's always been.  I'm kinda glad I got banned, it will keep me from telling those asses and Arringturd the head clown what I really think of them.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,10:04   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Nov. 05 2014,02:39)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 05 2014,00:30)
Gpuccio:

 
Quote
That statement is true, and it could be easily falsified in a Popperian sense: just give me a 600 character long string, encrypted if you prefer, which has a perfect sense in any known language, and which has been generated by a random character generating software (with the evidence, I will not believe you on your word alone! :) ).


I'd prefer to modify it to 10 seperate 600 character strings, *some* or which are random some of which are not.

If he's serious then we should take him up. Obviously we wont use simple substitution ciphers. We may create our own.

Anyone in?

Ha! Encrypt the first paragraph of Borges' The Tower of Babel. Or, if you can find it, Dave Langford's The Net of Babel.

I would suggest taking one of Gordon's Posts, then running it through an  256bit AES encryption (here: https://encipher.it/)....)

I wonder if using a 512-bit encryption would somehow violate the ID design FCSIUDi thing... being more than 512 bits. It makes no sense, but it would be funny to see their little heads explode.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
rossum



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,10:52   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 05 2014,00:30)
Gpuccio:

Quote
That statement is true, and it could be easily falsified in a Popperian sense: just give me a 600 character long string, encrypted if you prefer, which has a perfect sense in any known language, and which has been generated by a random character generating software (with the evidence, I will not believe you on your word alone! :) ).


I'd prefer to modify it to 10 seperate 600 character strings, *some* or which are random some of which are not.

If he's serious then we should take him up. Obviously we wont use simple substitution ciphers. We may create our own.

Anyone in?

Any 600 character string randomly generated from {A, C, G, T} will make perfect sense in terms of amino acid sequences, with some Stop codons as punctuation to separate the individual sequences.

Alternatively randomly generate the encrypted string and then carefully design the decryption key for a One-Time-Pad.  It can decrypt to any text of the same length that you want it to, depending on the key.

rossum

--------------
The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,10:59   

Quote (rossum @ Nov. 05 2014,10:52)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 05 2014,00:30)
Gpuccio:

 
Quote
That statement is true, and it could be easily falsified in a Popperian sense: just give me a 600 character long string, encrypted if you prefer, which has a perfect sense in any known language, and which has been generated by a random character generating software (with the evidence, I will not believe you on your word alone! :) ).


I'd prefer to modify it to 10 seperate 600 character strings, *some* or which are random some of which are not.

If he's serious then we should take him up. Obviously we wont use simple substitution ciphers. We may create our own.

Anyone in?

Any 600 character string randomly generated from {A, C, G, T} will make perfect sense in terms of amino acid sequences, with some Stop codons as punctuation to separate the individual sequences.

Alternatively randomly generate the encrypted string and then carefully design the decryption key for a One-Time-Pad.  It can decrypt to any text of the same length that you want it to, depending on the key.

rossum

With with a one time pad, we can arbitrarily map anything to anything?

OH DEAR. He's failed before he's started.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
rossum



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,16:04   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 05 2014,10:59)
With with a one time pad, we can arbitrarily map anything to anything?

OH DEAR. He's failed before he's started.

Correct.  Given a 600 character string, we can map it to any other 600 character string with a particular key.  It is that property which makes the OTP unbreakable without the key.  You cannot separate the real message from all the other possible messages of that same length.

--------------
The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,16:21   

Quote (rossum @ Nov. 05 2014,14:04)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 05 2014,10:59)
With with a one time pad, we can arbitrarily map anything to anything?

OH DEAR. He's failed before he's started.

Correct.  Given a 600 character string, we can map it to any other 600 character string with a particular key.  It is that property which makes the OTP unbreakable without the key.  You cannot separate the real message from all the other possible messages of that same length.

Then there's the UD one-time pad, which turns any batshit77 post into any other batshit77 post, by doing bugger all.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,16:27   

Quote

18
notstevestoryNovember 5, 2014 at 4:25 pm

Barry, since you’re back to banning Acartia, and Richard, and others, at least have the stones to admit it.


linky

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,16:30   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 05 2014,16:27)
Quote

18
notstevestoryNovember 5, 2014 at 4:25 pm

Barry, since you’re back to banning Acartia, and Richard, and others, at least have the stones to admit it.


[URL=http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwinism/post-election-special-the-evolutionary-psychologist-knows-why-you-vote-and-shop-and-tip-at

-restaurants/#comment-525784]linky[/URL]

Thanks Steve. They may have found me abrasive, but the locals can here can attest that as far as my personal obnoxiousness goes, I didn't get out of 2nd gear.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,16:48   

UD moderation - what they hear when we confront them and the actions they take:

Clicky!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,19:27   

I've noticed that when it comes to volcanoes, especially the one on his island, Kairosfocus forgets all about volcano gods and becomes a 100% materialist.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,21:46   

I see Barry is back in "Pretend something has happened which actually hasn't although IDists will nod and agree that it has" mode:

Quote
Barry ArringtonNovember 5, 2014 at 9:10 pm
keith s, you are the absolute last person who should be talking about obsessions or fixations, with all the huffing, crossing of arms, stamping of feet and whining about no one meeting your “challenge” when it has been met and overcome several times. You are always good for a grin. Or is that a grimace? No matter.


In the discussion* it shown that Barry wanted a demonstration of  CSI being made by natural forces, whilst Demski defines CSI as only to be 'counted' in the absence of them.

Science iz teh hard.


*KeithS pillaging their village.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,21:58   

What is there to say about a detection method and its proponents when the proponents concede that it could produce false negatives but those same proponents are absolutely sure it could never produce false positives?

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2014,22:02   

I'm convinced the smarter ones know its a crock. But they want sciencey sounding posts (with pictures (but no comments)) that they can point at so that creationists can have 'their' science too.


I mean I still hear "if we came from monkeys.." and "The second law of thermo.."

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
BillB



Posts: 388
Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2014,03:29   

Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 05 2014,22:21)
Quote (rossum @ Nov. 05 2014,14:04)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 05 2014,10:59)
With with a one time pad, we can arbitrarily map anything to anything?

OH DEAR. He's failed before he's started.

Correct.  Given a 600 character string, we can map it to any other 600 character string with a particular key.  It is that property which makes the OTP unbreakable without the key.  You cannot separate the real message from all the other possible messages of that same length.

Then there's the UD one-time pad, which turns any batshit77 post into any other batshit77 post, by doing bugger all.

I can't help thinking that all of KF's posts are actually derived from one uber post using some pseudo random mapping (and a quasi latch).

  
BillB



Posts: 388
Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2014,04:00   

Quote
There is plenty of room for discussion in and around UD, and the pro-darwinism essay challenge is still open [at two years, one month and counting . . . ], so claims of “censorship” and evasion of discussion or even cowardice on my or our part are patently groundless


Says KF at the end of a 6395 word essay with comments closed - presumably to prevent teh evil trolls from questioning his claims in a polite manner and thus engaging in incivility.

  
BillB



Posts: 388
Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2014,04:01   

Quote (BillB @ Nov. 06 2014,10:00)
Quote
There is plenty of room for discussion in and around UD, and the pro-darwinism essay challenge is still open [at two years, one month and counting . . . ], so claims of “censorship” and evasion of discussion or even cowardice on my or our part are patently groundless


Says KF at the end of a 6395 word essay with comments closed - presumably to prevent teh evil trolls from questioning his claims in a polite manner and thus engaging in incivility.

linky

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2014,08:41   

I don't know much about encryption and I have a question, but first I'll present some foundation for the question.

IDiots claim that they can 'determine' (or 'detect', take your pick) intelligent design (which to them includes intention-purpose) in things without knowing anything about the history of the things. The history of things would include anything and everything in, of, and about the things. In other words, anything and everything in, of, and about the things would be completely unknown and new to the IDiots.

IDiots claim that they have accurate, reliable tools-methods (with a rigid mathematical basis) with which to determine design, such as being able to calculate 'CSI' (or dFSCI, FSCO/I) in things. They say that CSI is complex specified information, and they define information as something with 'meaning', and they often use examples of English writings, numbers, etc., to try to support their claims. They also say that their 'irreducible complexity' claims are a critical part of or are the same as their CSI claims.

It seems to me that if what they claim has any credibility whatsoever they should be able to easily and accurately calculate the CSI (which includes the 'meaning' if any) in the following string, and easily and accurately calculate whether the following string is irreducibly complex or not.

EnCt2030d206c46bc9b2c87387bfb4
96c2cb88b867809030d206c46bc9b2
c87387bfbmroEOKjFkgNv855sW1Qhn
bSLoNPMdDl07gb5f+BwrcogXJLdFRQ
aUqziYBo1aZqyqpWwle/FEsRSh+JPv
ynS4Ay5ivz20bTeBLcc4HCsm+5c6vv
L7jbkTVkLepqWmcLZVASJKJmBYo14
7fWLi4fGZWNW3zTkVVxG9w9dOacK
zk1lrEz5UVmmVmusezzBDLAENCn/I
nuyubLqQ754/HrhcdD8PBLlIDnDUMa
s0yg9IwEmS

I know whether the above string has meaning or not and whether it is irreducibly complex or not. I know whether it's the result of blindly dragging my hand across my keyboard or not. The string may or may not be an encrypted example of something that has meaning. I also know whether a decryption program and/or password may or may not be required to decrypt the string and understand the meaning it may or may not have.

Some history regarding the string is already known (e.g. the individual letters, numbers, and symbols are all easily recognizable to English speakers who have just a very basic knowledge of numbers and symbols).

Here's my question: Shouldn't the IDiots, using only their tools-methods, be able to easily and accurately calculate (with a rigid mathematical basis of course) whether the string is complex, irreducibly complex, specified, intentional-purposeful, has information (meaning), and what the meaning is if there is any?


ETA: an adjustment that hopefully with prevent my comment above from being stretched out to the right.

ETA: The adjustment didn't work.  I don't know why it's stretched out so far to the right.

ETA: Arrghh!

ETA: One more try at de-stretching.

Edited by The whole truth on Nov. 07 2014,02:14

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
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