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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 4, Fostering a Greater Understanding of IDC< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2013,13:19   

In the beginning was the word?

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2013,13:38   

Quote (Quack @ Nov. 28 2013,16:32)
   I mentioned apologetics but I really don't know much about them, maybe except for evolutionfairytale. They had a moderator IIRC "ikester" - I got banned before I had made maybe my third post. The reason? I had not answered all the quesions he'd asked after my first post. The numbers may not be 100% right, maybe closer to 99.9%

And they keep track of URL's, once banned, you are gone forever.
I've got new URL's a number of times since then but I won't go near a place as mad as that.

Anyone else with an experience of them?

ETA 's' to 'time'

I took a look at the site.  That's quite a blog!  I'd say it even makes UD seem relatively less malevolent.  Think of UD run by the bastard child of Salvador and Barry.  Deranged and mean.  

I notice that their "Real Science Radio" button redirects to Bob Enyart Live.  Here are some excerpts from the Wikipedia article on Bob:      
Quote
Bob Enyart is an American talk radio host, author, and pastor of Denver Bible Church.

Enyart pickets the homes of doctors performing abortions resulting in one Colorado town banning such protests in residential areas.

Enyart also angered families of AIDS victims when he read the men's obituaries on his television show calling the deceased "sodomite"s.

Enyart has also led residential protests against executives of a company which provided construction services for Planned Parenthood offices leading to similar neighbor complaints.

Enyart is a proponent of corporal punishment of children saying that their "hearts are lifted" by spanking.

He was convicted for misdemeanor child abuse in 1994 after beating his girlfriend's child with a belt so hard that the beating broke the skin.

Birds of a feather and all that.

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2013,13:44   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 29 2013,13:19)
In the beginning was the word?

Mass quantities of them.

Give him some credit, though.  He's never made reference to Mr. Leathers or claimed that children were uplifted by spanking as he flayed their skin.

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2013,20:05   

Poor StephenB - over on the Understanding self-evidence thread (UD link) he is defending the Objective Higher Natural Moral Law, or some such, and is taking a beating from two directions. On one hand he has people based in the real world (Mark Frank, Graham2 and others, you know who you are) asking awkward questions such as "How do we know objective morality when we see it?". On the other hand he's got a shit fight over religion going on with Sal Cordova.

Couldn't be happening to a nicer guy.

Also, a keeper from StephenB (comment 34):        
Quote
Of course if must proceed from the lawgiver. The Ten Commandments are nothing more than the Natural Moral Law made explicit. The problem is that you think God’s Divine Revelation about morality (Bible) is at war with God’s natural revelation about morality (conscience). It isn’t. Reason is simply the tool use to access God’s natural revelation, just as faith is the tool that we use to access God’s Divine revelation.

(My bold)

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Kantian Naturalist



Posts: 72
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2013,21:52   

When StephenB says things like "Reason is simply the tool use to access God’s natural revelation, just as faith is the tool that we use to access God’s Divine revelation," he is not saying anything terribly astonishing.  That's a basically correct, though crude, formulation of what Thomists hold.  

StephenB's philosophical incompetence isn't that he's a Thomist, but that he's unable to engage in reasonable discussion with anyone who is not.  His attempts to persuade others to accept his Thomistic starting-points are laughable, and he's not nearly as good at philosophy as he thinks he is.  

Though I did appreciate this moment of honesty from him:

Quote
You know it by its proper fit with human nature. If it promotes what is good for our nature, then it is objectively good; if it promotes what is bad for our nature, then it is objectively bad. If there is no such thing as human nature, then there can be no such thing as objective morality.


That gives the whole game away quite nicely -- for here is the whole argument that StephenB has been running:

(1) if Darwinism is true, then there is no such thing as a fixed essence to human nature;
(2) But there is objective morality only if there is a fixed essence to human nature.  
(3) So if Darwinism is true, there is no objective morality;
(4) The only alternative to objective morality is 'might makes right';
(5) Hence, if Darwinism is true, there is no alternative to 'might makes right'.  

and it is in order to avoid that conclusion that StephenB must reject Darwinism -- he must find it to be false.  He cannot reject (2) or (4) because those options are so central to Thomistic philosophy that he cannot imagine an alternative to them.  Which is quite striking, since we've had a wide range of decent philosophical options to Thomism for the past 400 years.  Perhaps StephenB has simply not been paying attention.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2013,22:30   

Well, (1), (2), and (3) I think I agree with. (Noting that for (3), I agree with the conclusion without need of the premise, i.e., the conclusion is independent of whatever "Darwinism" might be. Secondly noting that this makes (1) and (2) irrelevant to the conclusion, as far as I'm concerned. )

But for (4), that conclusion is only if one or more "sides" choose force over coexistence, and even then "might makes right" doesn't convey morality; it only forces the loser to pretend to accept the rules set by somebody else.

So, IMNSHO, (5) does not follow.

I also infer from this that I'm not a Thomist.

Henry

  
timothya



Posts: 280
Joined: April 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,01:21   

StephenB's contribution to epistemology included:
 
Quote
The Ten Commandments are nothing more than the Natural Moral Law made explicit.

I'm at a loss what is naturally immoral about making graven images of imaginary heavenly things, or coveting your neighbours' chattels (as opposed to treating dependents as chattel property in the first place).

Why is disrespecting your parents naturally immoral (some parents surely deserve disrespect). Why is "keeping the seventh day holy" a naturally moral obligation? Why not every fifth, or third, or thirteenth?

And why is it not a violation of natural moral law that the Ten Commandments make no condemnation of rape or slavery?

--------------
"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread." Anatole France

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,03:55   

Quote (timothya @ Dec. 03 2013,07:21)
StephenB's contribution to epistemology included:
 
Quote
The Ten Commandments are nothing more than the Natural Moral Law made explicit.

I'm at a loss what is naturally immoral about making graven images of imaginary heavenly things, or coveting your neighbours' chattels (as opposed to treating dependents as chattel property in the first place).

Why is disrespecting your parents naturally immoral (some parents surely deserve disrespect). Why is "keeping the seventh day holy" a naturally moral obligation? Why not every fifth, or third, or thirteenth?

And why is it not a violation of natural moral law that the Ten Commandments make no condemnation of rape or slavery?

We are taught that we must have what our neighbours have, and that to satisy that desire is a pleasure equivalent to orgasm. Indeed, modern capitalism depends on the dissemination of these feelings.

A tension there for any good Republican American who believes in a natural moral law.

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
BillB



Posts: 388
Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,06:47   

Here we go - KF has started to deface Mark Franks posts:
 
Quote


KF

1) Please make allowances for other cultures. I had no idea what you referring to because in my culture (by which I mean large sections of English speaking Western society) to call (SNIP-there you go again . . . in the face of full well knowing what you are doing) “excrement” is a euphemism and considered pretentious. Are you against using the language of Chaucer and Shakespeare? (You full well know that language shifts and that terms once acceptable become vulgar)

2) I know full well that people make errors. These errors lead to results as varied as faulty machines, sums with wrong answers, poor judgements of character and missed penalties in soccer. It is reasonable to call these results errors as long we know that were created as the result of someone erring. (this was never at issue: error implies but is not equal to erring. noun is not verb . . . all of which was already pointed out) That much we rather painfully established. But I got the impression you meant more than that by the phrase “error exists”. I would also point out that while it is obviously true that errors exist in this sense, denying it does not lead any kind of logical absurdity (it has been shown that denying error exists leads straight into multiple patent absurdities, and you previously agreed under pressure, try, E, ~E, [E AND ~E] = 0, so on inspection ~E = 0.) . Denying it would just mean a society where everyday got everything right all the time – not realistic but logically possible [rubbish].


KF follows up with the threat of censorship:
Quote
MF: why are you acting like the bad neighbour who refuses to restrain his dog after his neighbour has already pointed out what that dog is regularly depositing on his lawn? Are you trying to exasperate me into removing your posts or shut down this thread so you and/or associates/ enablers can go elsewhere and make false claims about “censorship for mere disagreement”? Come on, do better than that. KF

  
Patrick



Posts: 666
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,07:18   

Quote (timothya @ Dec. 03 2013,02:21)
StephenB's contribution to epistemology included:
   
Quote
The Ten Commandments are nothing more than the Natural Moral Law made explicit.

I'm at a loss what is naturally immoral about making graven images of imaginary heavenly things, or coveting your neighbours' chattels (as opposed to treating dependents as chattel property in the first place).

Why is disrespecting your parents naturally immoral (some parents surely deserve disrespect). Why is "keeping the seventh day holy" a naturally moral obligation? Why not every fifth, or third, or thirteenth?

And why is it not a violation of natural moral law that the Ten Commandments make no condemnation of rape or slavery?

Indeed.  I immediately thought of this Louis C.K. bit:



When four out of ten commandments are unrelated to how to treat other people, you've got to wonder about the priorities.

ETA:  Sorry I couldn't find a larger image.  :-P

Edited by Patrick on Dec. 03 2013,08:22

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,11:09   

Barry looking to bad Sal?

Quote
Barry Arrington
December 3, 2013 at 10:14 am

Sal, I have a question for you:

Can a proposition be true and false at the same time and in the same sense?


--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5287
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,11:41   

Bully Arrington is making quite the spectacle out of himself over at UD.  His latest effort at playing scientist is a regurgitation of a half dozen well known Creationist quotemine jobs "proving" that there are no transitional fossils.

Once More From the Top on the Fossil Record

Gotta love pompous gasbag lawyers with zero self-awareness.

:D

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,12:01   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 03 2013,11:09)
Barry looking to bad Sal?

Quote
Barry Arrington
December 3, 2013 at 10:14 am

Sal, I have a question for you:

Can a proposition be true and false at the same time and in the same sense?

First they came for the Darwinists...

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5287
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,12:10   

Quote (olegt @ Dec. 03 2013,12:01)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 03 2013,11:09)
Barry looking to bad Sal?

   
Quote
Barry Arrington
December 3, 2013 at 10:14 am

Sal, I have a question for you:

Can a proposition be true and false at the same time and in the same sense?

First they came for the Darwinists...

Looks like Bully is following through with his threat...

 
Quote
Bully Arrington: "scordova is in moderation until he answers the question posed at 198."


:D  :D  :D

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5287
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,12:32   

Sal bends over and grabs his ankles.

Quote
Arrington: "Sal, I have a question for you:

   Can a proposition be true and false at the same time and in the same sense?"


Quote
Slimy Sal:  "No."


Quote
Arrington: "scordova is no longer in moderation."


--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,13:01   

Glorious leader only wants best for you.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,15:44   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 03 2013,11:09)
Barry looking to bad Sal?

Quote
Barry Arrington
December 3, 2013 at 10:14 am

Sal, I have a question for you:

Can a proposition be true and false at the same time and in the same sense?

This statement is untrue.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,16:36   

Quote
Can a proposition be true and false at the same time and in the same sense?

Doesn't that depend on who you are talking to?

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,21:11   

Quote
Can a proposition be true and false at the same time and in the same sense?


Is quantum mechanics involved? ;)

Or more seriously: is fuzzy logic involved?

Henry

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2013,21:36   

must be Friday already

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
timothya



Posts: 280
Joined: April 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 04 2013,01:09   

StephenB:
   
Quote
Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time as an ontological reality?

I fell about laughing when I read this beauty. Any number of commenters have pointed out that the Law of Noncontradiction relies for its application on the categories in question having definite boundaries. So what example does this pompous windbag decide to use? A gas-planet that has no defined physical boundary.

I can observe Jupiter from a great distance and be certain I am not "on Jupiter". But if I approach Jupiter, at what point can I say I am on its surface? Pretty obviously, there is no such point - all the way to the centre of the planet!

Evidently, Jupiter can simultaneously exist and not exist as an ontological reality. What a hoot.

--------------
"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread." Anatole France

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 04 2013,04:56   

Quote (timothya @ Dec. 04 2013,01:09)
StephenB:
     
Quote
Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time as an ontological reality?

I fell about laughing when I read this beauty. Any number of commenters have pointed out that the Law of Noncontradiction relies for its application on the categories in question having definite boundaries. So what example does this pompous windbag decide to use? A gas-planet that has no defined physical boundary.

I can observe Jupiter from a great distance and be certain I am not "on Jupiter". But if I approach Jupiter, at what point can I say I am on its surface? Pretty obviously, there is no such point - all the way to the centre of the planet!

Evidently, Jupiter can simultaneously exist and not exist as an ontological reality. What a hoot.

I think you need to modify that. Yes, Jupiter does exist: the problematic statement would be "is Jupiter part of this bit of space?".

I don't know enough about the semantics of fuzzy logic to know if a truth value of 0.5 can be said to simultaneously have truth values of 1 and 0.

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
REC



Posts: 638
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 04 2013,11:54   

Quote
Alan Fox December 4, 2013 at 11:15 am

[snip]

UD Editors: Alan apologized but then added a smart-assed comment that made the apology clearly insincere. He will remain in moderation.


I wasn't following this thread. Was there a demand to apologize to Barry because Alan asked for the context of a mined quote?

The preceding comment from Mapou shows the UD classiness Alan was found to be lacking:

Quote
Alan Fox, if you got any kind of gonads, you should reply to my comment @49 where I take you to task for not knowing that intelligent design over time generates an evolution of designs, something that is so obvious, it’s not even part of Intelligent Design 101. Don’t be a gutless poltron. Put on a sackcloth and ashes and then confess your ignorance. Nobody will laugh at you. OK, maybe a little. :-D


Edited by REC on Dec. 04 2013,12:05

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 04 2013,12:15   

Hi REC
This is the apology I offered.


  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 04 2013,12:28   

It seems Barry is tired of you embarrassing him. That plus Sal's recent loyalty test - Pulpit Bullies.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5287
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 04 2013,12:37   

Quote (REC @ Dec. 04 2013,11:54)
   
Quote
Alan Fox December 4, 2013 at 11:15 am

[snip]

UD Editors: Alan apologized but then added a smart-assed comment that made the apology clearly insincere. He will remain in moderation.


I wasn't following this thread. Was there a demand to apologize to Barry because Alan asked for the context of a mined quote?

Yep.  Bully got caught using some bog standard Creationist quote-mined quotes. Alan called him on it.  Alan is now in permanent moderation.

Big brave Bully Arrington.  Censorship and banning is all he knows.

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 04 2013,12:45   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Dec. 04 2013,12:37)
Quote (REC @ Dec. 04 2013,11:54)
     
Quote
Alan Fox December 4, 2013 at 11:15 am

[snip]

UD Editors: Alan apologized but then added a smart-assed comment that made the apology clearly insincere. He will remain in moderation.


I wasn't following this thread. Was there a demand to apologize to Barry because Alan asked for the context of a mined quote?

Yep.  Bully got caught using some bog standard Creationist quote-mined quotes. Alan called him on it.  Alan is now in permanent moderation.

Big brave Bully Arrington.  Censorship and banning is all he knows.

And of course, now Alan has no write of reply (Skeptical Zone please, Alan), Barry was written his version of events as a new post. Shameful.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
REC



Posts: 638
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 04 2013,15:18   

I wonder when in the history of that mined quote some enterprising soul changed the title of the book:

Quote
Niles Eldredge and Ian Tattersall, The Myth of Human Evolution (New York: Columbia University Press, 1982), 45-46.


Should be the Myths-as in strict phyletic gradualism, Victorian ideals of progress toward some state, assorted creationist nonsense, and mistakes biologists have made.

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 04 2013,15:20   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Dec. 04 2013,12:37)
Quote (REC @ Dec. 04 2013,11:54)
     
Quote
Alan Fox December 4, 2013 at 11:15 am

[snip]

UD Editors: Alan apologized but then added a smart-assed comment that made the apology clearly insincere. He will remain in moderation.


I wasn't following this thread. Was there a demand to apologize to Barry because Alan asked for the context of a mined quote?

Yep.  Bully got caught using some bog standard Creationist quote-mined quotes. Alan called him on it.  Alan is now in permanent moderation.

Big brave Bully Arrington.  Censorship and banning is all he knows.

Has anyone found the full quote yet? I don't have the book, but googling around shows that BarryA got the title of the book wrong: it should be The Myths of Human Evolution. Oddly, an s disappeared in Barry's version.

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5287
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 04 2013,16:09   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Dec. 04 2013,15:20)
   
Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Dec. 04 2013,12:37)
     
Quote (REC @ Dec. 04 2013,11:54)
           
Quote
Alan Fox December 4, 2013 at 11:15 am

[snip]

UD Editors: Alan apologized but then added a smart-assed comment that made the apology clearly insincere. He will remain in moderation.


I wasn't following this thread. Was there a demand to apologize to Barry because Alan asked for the context of a mined quote?

Yep.  Bully got caught using some bog standard Creationist quote-mined quotes. Alan called him on it.  Alan is now in permanent moderation.

Big brave Bully Arrington.  Censorship and banning is all he knows.

Has anyone found the full quote yet? I don't have the book, but googling around shows that BarryA got the title of the book wrong: it should be The Myths of Human Evolution. Oddly, an s disappeared in Barry's version.

A good chunk of the entire passage is reproduced here  in the book "Ten Facts Of Evolution".

Notice that Bully is twisting and lying about the episode now that Alan can't respond.  Bully stared the discussion with a claim that there are no transitional fossils which Bully also claimed was what Darwin said would falsify ToE.   Bully then produced the list of standard quote-mined quotes about Punk Eek to support his "no transitional fossils" idiocy.  Many of the quotes can be found in the TalkOrigin "Quote Mine Project" archives.

That's what Alan called him on, that all the quotes about Eldridge's Punk Eek idea means no transitionals exist.  Bully is now spinning it as Alan saying there is no such thing as Punk Eek.

Typical dishonest bullshit from cowardly Bully Arrington.  It's all he knows.

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
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