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  Topic: oh, this should be fun..., examination of the efficacy of prayer< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,00:33   

well, i see it all the time.

good science can still be done with "bad" funding.

unless your funding organization entirely depends on private donations (don't we know an organization like that...;) ), then your credibility weighs in on how much funding you get, even as a foundation (foundations often rely on grants from other foundations).

Credibility in funding organizations is often influenced by the value articles published by scientists they fund have to the scientific community in general; that is, one, is it good science, and two, is it interesting.

so, yeah, even the Templeton foundation wants to encourage the folks they fund to do rigorous science; it helps them get more funding, and avoid critcism.

Not to say that there aren't foundations that don't give a sh*t about anything but their private agendas, but typically those don't last long unless, as i said, they have a continuous source of private funding coming from somewhere (oohhh, like Howie Ahmanson, say).

One could say that money is the great equalizer; it's required by both the religious and non-religious alike, and if you are a foundation funding research, your credibility is everything.

Quote
If the 7ish% difference is really down to negative effects of prayer it would need to be repeated with the same results to sway me.


interestingly, a friend related a story to me today about a time when his mother was in the hospital for surgery.  Seems one of her friends (who was very religious) called her pastor and asked him to go to the hospital and pray for her friend (my friends mother).  Well, seems my friends mother is not only not-relgious, she abhors it (one wonders why her friend did not know this?).  So, when the pastor came to her, she told him in no uncertain terms he was not needed.  However, he refused to leave, saying that it would be better if he stayed and prayed for her.  Turns out this upset my friends mother so much they had to cancel the surgery and postpone it to a later day.

moral of the story is, it seems possible that the 7% increase in complications could be explained by objection to being prayed for, and the resultant stress.  It's even possible that participants did not wish to express outward negativity towards being prayed for, for a variety of reasons.

I'd like to see the full discussion in the paper, but the review article suggests the authors did not address this implication.  

Now THAT'S where a legitimate bias could have come in.  the design is rigorous enough, but one could easily leave out potentially controversial (even if obvious) implications in the discussion section without getting too dinged for it.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,04:14   

RE: good research from bad funding.

A bit off-topic, but my first job after college was working as a technician at what is now the very prestigious Scripps Research Institute. The next-door lab was Richard Lerner's (later president of Scripps and Major Dude of science). Some of their work involved cancer-causing retroviruses, and was funded by tobacco money. Reason being - I guess - the tobacco people wanted to play up non-tobacco causes of cancer. Either that, or they naively imagined that funding cancer research might produce a cure so smokers could stop worrying about that pesky side-effect.

--------------
Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,07:48   

Quote (sir_toejam @ April 03 2006,05:33)
...
Now THAT'S where a legitimate bias could have come in.  the design is rigorous enough, but one could easily leave out potentially controversial (even if obvious) implications in the discussion section without getting too dinged for it.

Good point!

I hadn't even thought about that.

A while ago I read an article that claimed humour can help a patients recovery from illness. Tried to google it but got an embaressment of riches. Some contradictory.

Google search

In summary, it would apear that we are not all identical (shock horror).

  
Seven Popes



Posts: 190
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,08:04   

Quote
Originally Posted by USA Today
Mark Coppenger, a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, believes in praying for others, but he questions the wisdom of measuring God's response. "It's my experience that God actually prompts our prayers," Coppenger says. "But I don't see him cooperating in a test."

So by simply using Scientific method, you can cancel the effect of prayer by making god accountable? All I have to do is tell god "I'm gonna keep an eye on you" and the prayers of thousands are invalidated? I CAN BULLY GOD!

--------------
Cave ab homine unius libri - Beware of anyone who has just one book.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,10:08   

Quote
Coppenger says. "But I don't see him cooperating in a test."


hilarious!  just yesterday i bet a friend of mine that someone would say this very thing about this study.

One wonders what all the religious supporters of ID think of logic like this...

because if they agree, then I could of course make the same argument; ID will never be testable because the "intelligent designer" will never cooperate.

phht.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,10:12   

I spent some time hanging out with scripps students and profs when i was deciding which grad school to attend.  

just curious; when were you there, Russel?

  
normdoering



Posts: 287
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,07:18   

Quote (sir_toejam @ April 03 2006,15:08)
Quote
Coppenger says. "But I don't see him cooperating in a test."


hilarious!

What to get even funnier?
Check out this Onion article:
Critics Blast Bush For Not Praying Hard Enough
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46938

"There is a real possibility that the president misrepresented the number of times he invokes Jesus' power each day in accordance with the strict guidelines of scripture," said Henry Holbrook, senior fellow at the Intercession Institute, a leading conservative prayer tank. "Is he clasping his hands together tightly enough? Is he using the proper forms of the pronouns 'thine' and 'thou'? What about the verb 'hast'?"

Susan DiDomenico of the National Prayer Task Force said her organization is seeking "full disclosure" of any and all prayers Bush may have skipped or manipulated to seem more effective or holy.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,09:21   

coincidence that that Onion article appears right now while we are discussing this very issue?

I think not!

*shhhh!*

(they're watching us)

:p

  
normdoering



Posts: 287
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,09:56   

Quote (sir_toejam @ April 05 2006,14:21)
(they're watching us)

If so, I expect them to make fun of the Pianka scrap soon.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,10:36   

Quote
just curious; when were you there, Russel?
Oh, geez. Here's where I have to admit how old I am. It was 1973/4

--------------
Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,11:06   

ouch, yes, that was a bit before my time;

I was hanging about there from time to time around '83/84, '87/88, and a wee bit around '90.

I was greatly dissapointed at the time in the emphasis shift from organismal to molecular biology that was happening there (one of the reasons i decided against it for grad school), but I can see the advantages now (still don't like it :p ).

I wish I had been a marine biologist in the 70's, when there was still plenty of money floating around for organismal marine biologists.

*sigh*

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,11:09   

The Daily Show did a story on this study last night.

funny stuff.

GW:

"I am sustained... by the fact that millions of Americans pray for me."

JS:

"So THAT'S what went wrong!"

  
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