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  Topic: How is the Bible consistent with science?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,12:02   

Quote
It's really easy to write down that Noah lived for 600 years, but is there any more circumstantial evidence written in his (or anyone else's) story that makes the claim more believable? In other words, if multiple people live for multiple centuries, I would expect there to some dramatic differences in the number of children they had compared to us, like, say, 10 times the number of our typical offspring.

I'm not a biblical scholar either. But if a generation was still about 20 years (and isn't the 6000-year age based on that length of generation), then Methuselah and Noah and those others who lived many centures, would have been around doing bible-worthy stuff during the lifetimes of 30-40 generations. That's a LOT of generations hanging with the same (extremely famous) old geezers. If Noah was young when Methuselah died, we're looking at one of these two characters being alive every moment from Abraham right up through Jesus. Surely they must have been playing some continuous role, worth of some mention, even offhand?

So Kind of surprising that in all the tales of Saul and David and Solomon (the late Bronze age or early Iron age?), Noah was not even referred to in any way. Do you suppose some later redactor went through and removed ALL references to ALL these long-lived characters once they'd outlived a usefulness that never lasted more than an ordinary 40-year lifetime would have required?

Also, notice that the Egyptians made regular forays through the holy lands smacking down the local yokels and confiscating whatever they might have of value. Wouldn't the Egyptions have been curious about people who were busy living an order of magnitude longer than they were? If I were pharoah, I'd sure want to know how that worked. None of them mentioned it. Stranger and stranger...

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,12:07   

Arden Chatfield wrote:
Quote
1) Yes, I've heard of John McWhorter, and in fact I know him personally.

Could I get an autograph?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,13:35   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Jan. 23 2006,18<!--emo&:0)
Arden Chatfield wrote:
Quote
1) Yes, I've heard of John McWhorter, and in fact I know him personally.

Could I get an autograph?

Hey, dude, John McWhorter doesn't sign autographs for just anyone...

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ved



Posts: 398
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,13:44   

But who would know if this wisp is "anyone"? And who would Mr. McWhorter make it out to??

;)

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,13:49   

Quote
Hey, dude, John McWhorter doesn't sign autographs for just anyone...


B-but....I bought most of his books, and only read one in the bookstore. Also, I give him free pub on this blog, although dullards like the Yenta keep mixing him up with Derbyshire (conservative Johns being so hard to tell apart and all). Maybe he could check in with an opinion on linguistics ("Oh, those evil Towerites"). Even a "Get bent, Paley" would be great.

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,13:55   

Quote
And who would Mr. McWhorter make it out to??

The Ghost of Paley. Who else???   :D

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,13:59   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Jan. 23 2006,19:49)
Quote
Hey, dude, John McWhorter doesn't sign autographs for just anyone...


B-but....I bought most of his books, and only read one in the bookstore. Also, I give him free pub on this blog, although dullards like the Yenta keep mixing him up with Derbyshire (conservative Johns being so hard to tell apart and all). Maybe he could check in with an opinion on linguistics ("Oh, those evil Towerites"). Even a "Get bent, Paley" would be great.

Jeez, you groupies, what a pain in the ass you guys all are...

Fair's fair, 3 years ago he told a friend of mine that he still votes Democrat.

Now get back behind the rope. I don't want to tell you again.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,16:45   

Flint,
Re "If Noah was young when Methuselah died,"

According to the year numbers given in the story, Methuselah died within a year of the start of the flood. It doesn't say if he drowned or died of something else shortly before he would have drowned, though.

Henry

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2006,06:30   

Well, I'm glad we had this discussion. I think now we're all clear on what Heddle*  means when he contends that the bible is consistent with science, and there's no need to rehash it on every third comment thread on PT. Should it come up, please steer commenters to this discussion.

*(and, I guess, Carol Clouser, though she chose not to speak for herself here)

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2006,12:01   

Just hoping Carol will show up.

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Carol Clouser



Posts: 29
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2006,19:32   

Well Paul, here I am. Now what?

  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2006,06:08   

Carol:

Quote
Well Paul, here I am. Now what?


Good to see you. Now that you're here, can you speculate on the matter I raised earlier, that either Methuselah or Noah was alive from Abraham right through Jesus, yet as far as either the Bible or the Egyptions were concerned, *nobody seemed to notice them* except for some passing mention. You might be even a little curious how people living 40 generations could have escaped notice so totally.  With your hotline to the *real* Bible, surely you have an answer?

  
Carol Clouser



Posts: 29
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2006,18:01   

Flint,

Pray tell, what on earth are you talking about? Methusaleh through Jesus? Methusaleh was born in 3079 BCE and died in 2110 BCE. That is  more than TWO THOUSAND years before Jesus.

Noah was born in 2710 BCE and died in 1760 BCE, also almost two thousand years before Jesus.

Considering these time frames and the conditions pertaining to writing, recording and preserving records, particularly in ancient mesapotamia, perhaps it is us who failed to notice that these lifespans were noticed? Perhaps their contemporaries didn't believe these fellows who claimed such long lifespans and thought them to be insane. They certainly didn't produce any birth certificates to prove the point. There are people today who claim to be as old as 150 and nobody believes them (the Guiness book of world records, for example).

  
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,00:44   

Carol, where do you get your dates from. I could not help to notice the precise and unrounded "79" in Metuthingies birth date.

Futher, the studies suggest the JAHWE is a form of ENKI. What are your thoughts on this and why is it not possible?

  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,02:54   

Carol,

I'd also like to know where you got such nice precise dates. Also, it appears that Methuselah lived through the flood. How? And if they got away with these enormous lifespans because "their fellows didn't believe them", clearly *someone* believed them (you do, and you weren't even around to watch). But how would one go about disguising this? By staying on the move all the time? The entire territory wasn't that large, and even if it was, and moving around DID disguise their longevity (leaving aside why they'd want to do this, or whether they were unusual, etc.) apparently they broke their vow of silence long enough to confide in a biblical author. A strange violation, I should think.

Your dates have Methuselah and Noah living concurrently for 600 years exactly. Nice number. I wonder why nobody bothered to record what they did together.

So I take it, by implication the Egyptians (who also failed to notice the flood, as I guess Methuselah did as well) weren't aware of these extremely long-lived people because they didn't just happen to talk to whoever wrote the bible, who was in on something that would have been of absolutely fabulous interest to all the local contemporaries of these folks, who were fooled by the lack of birth certificates (but the bible author was NOT fooled, interestingly enough).

Well, I guess if not noticing while living through a global flood that killed everyone doesn't bother you, not noticing neighbors who live 40 generations will escape your notice as well. Yet these same people, who raise oblivious to unimaginable peaks, somehow WERE able to notice someone who doesn't even exist.

Alternatively, we might speculate that people were no less capable of writing fiction at that time then they are today. Maybe they made errors of specious precision (as Renier points out), which would be snickered at today by any sophisticated reader. But hey, readers of that time were less sophisticated and more likely to fall for it.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,03:05   

Quote
But how would one go about disguising this? By staying on the move all the time?
I believe the local social news reporters regularly described him as "spry" (or whatever the authentic® Hebrew word was)

Quote
Your dates have Methuselah and Noah living concurrently for 600 years exactly. Nice number. I wonder why nobody bothered to record what they did together.
No mystery there. Ever tried to follow a blow-by-blow account of a 120-year shuffleboard marathon?

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,03:10   

Sorry about that. I regret being flippant. I can only hope our resident biblical scholars have a more flexible sense of humor than the cartoon-protesters so much in the news of late.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,05:07   

Re "Also, it appears that Methuselah lived through the flood. How?"
According to the year spans in my copy of those stories, he died the same year the flood started. Though I've no clue how specific BCE dates can get attached since the later books stopped giving all those year spans between begats.

Henry

  
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,05:41   

Quote (Henry J @ Feb. 15 2006,11:07)
Re "Also, it appears that Methuselah lived through the flood. How?"
According to the year spans in my copy of those stories, he died the same year the flood started. Though I've no clue how specific BCE dates can get attached since the later books stopped giving all those year spans between begats.

Henry

Oh, it's easy. Since the Bible is always true, you pick the one non-Biblical data point which seems to fit the Bible's account (say, the archaeological estimate of when a certain king began his reign) and ignore everything else.

  
Carol Clouser



Posts: 29
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,05:58   

Russell,

I do have a finely honed sense of humor and a pretty thick skin. The cartoons were, however, intended as serious commentary which is partly why they elicited such a strong reaction. The reaction, I think, actually substantiates the message conveyed by the cartoons. What a shame. It gives serious religious conviction a bad name.


Flint and Renier,

The OT contains a web of times, names and places that can and has been used to form a tight and consistent chronology of events going from Adam to the first exile. The Hebrew calendar, currently in year 5766, is based on this chronolgy. I know this chronolgy to some extent and merely converted into BCE years.

I have no reason to assume that Methusaleh survived or did not survive the local flood described in Genesis. Its a close call, since partial years are sometimed rounded upward and sometimes downward, for various reasons, in the Bible. And the duration of the flood was about a year.

My understanding is that Adam, who is not claimed to be the first human in the OT, and his descendents, some of whom are described there, constitute the nucleus of a small family and it is events associated with this family that the OT describes in some detail. The OT was however written much later, so it was not by divulging forbidden secrets that the information was obtained but either by family tradition or divine inspirtation.

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,06:39   

Quote
Stop and think it over
Try and put yourself in my unique position
If I get stoned and sing all night long
It's a family tradition!


Maybe that's a poor translation of old hebrew?
Can you hear the Kareoke machine warming up?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Rilke's Granddaughter



Posts: 311
Joined: Jan. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,06:42   

Quote
The OT contains a web of times, names and places that can and has been used to form a tight and consistent chronology of events going from Adam to the first exile.

This appears to be another example of Carol deliberately avoiding answering a question.  This does NOT explain how you can blithely assign precise dates when the actual correlation of the current calendar to the First Exile cannot be more than approximate.
Quote
And the duration of the flood was about a year.
Since the flood did not actually occur, you mean that the Tanakh states that the flood lasted about a year.  Or more.  Or less.  Consider the fact that the flood may have lasted forty days (Gen. 7:17) or 150 (Gen. 7:24)?
Quote
who is not claimed to be the first human in the OT
Oh? The Jewish Encyclopedia disagrees with you:
Quote
Man, the crown of Creation, as a pair including man and woman, has been made in God's image. God forms the first man, Adam, out of earth ("adamah"). This indicates his relation to it in a manner that is fundamental for many later laws. Man is a child of the earth, from which he has been taken, and to which he shall return. It possesses for him a certain moral grandeur: he serves it; it does not serve him. He must include God's creatures in the respect that it demands in general, by not exploiting them for his own selfish uses. Unlawful robbery of its gifts (as in paradise), murder, and unchastity anger it, paralyze its power and delight in producing, and defile it. God breathed the breath of life into the nostrils of man, whom He formed out of earth. Therefore that part of him that is contrasted with his corporeal nature or supplements it—his life, soul, spirit, and reason—is not, as with the animals, of earthly origin, existing in consequence of the body, but is of divine, heavenly origin. Man is "toledot" (ii. 4) of heaven and earth.
from Jewish Encyclopedia

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,07:00   

Ok, ok ok ok ok ok. This has become strange. Just throwing my 2 shillings worth here but, does anybody care whether the hebrew creation myth is coincidentally, semi in agreement with our new understanding of the world garnered through observation and evidence? Religion has been shattered and the pieces are laying around writing about how they are still relevant as shattered pieces. I mean, I consider it an act of pity to allow people who desperately cling to the ideas of zeus, horus, jesus, yaweh, mohammed, krsna, tlketklotl, and the like to speak their minds about these utterly and totally defunct political/creation myths. Someday, I plan to put a Caananite bone up on my mantle as a religious relic. As soon as someone finds one.

Mind you I am not knocking religion here, it's just that well, you know, I am more interested in what Carol does with her new improved and ever so much more accurate translation of her historical artifact and curiosity.

Do you believe in the god of your particular regional deity?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Rilke's Granddaughter



Posts: 311
Joined: Jan. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,07:16   

Quote (BWE @ Feb. 15 2006,13:00)
Ok, ok ok ok ok ok. This has become strange. Just throwing my 2 shillings worth here but, does anybody care whether the hebrew creation myth is coincidentally, semi in agreement with our new understanding of the world garnered through observation and evidence? Religion has been shattered and the pieces are laying around writing about how they are still relevant as shattered pieces. I mean, I consider it an act of pity to allow people who desperately cling to the ideas of zeus, horus, jesus, yaweh, mohammed, krsna, tlketklotl, and the like to speak their minds about these utterly and totally defunct political/creation myths. Someday, I plan to put a Caananite bone up on my mantle as a religious relic. As soon as someone finds one.

Mind you I am not knocking religion here, it's just that well, you know, I am more interested in what Carol does with her new improved and ever so much more accurate translation of her historical artifact and curiosity.

Do you believe in the god of your particular regional deity?

She doesn't actually seem to be interested in doing anything with it.  Except sell Landa's book, of course.

  
Carol Clouser



Posts: 29
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,07:42   

Why is it that since I just recently showed up here ten other characters deigned to make a sudden appearance?


Rilke,

Dummy - your ignorance is actually beginning to astound me. Either get an education first, then come here an argue, or shut up and you just might learn something.

  
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,07:42   

You have a point, BWE. It's kind of like two little girls trying to work out whose invisible unicorn is a brighter shade of pink.

If ever there is a way to confirm, once and for all, the veracity of the Genesis account (you know, a time machine, or secret alien recordings, etc.) I would be willing to bet every last cent of my meagre fortune that Adam, Eve, Noah, and Methusaleh (and most if not all the rest) are complete and utter inventions. Local flood, global flood, it doesn't matter. While it is possible that certain events described in Genesis (post Noah) may have some basis in fact (many myths do) it's inconceivable that the individual characters I listed above ever existed, let alone lived hundreds of years.

By the way, Carol, the reason no one believes the people who claim to have lived 150 years is simply because it is not biologically possible. Even given perfect health the human body simply wears out. 120 years is just about the limit, with only a tiny number eking out a few more months.

We may be able to defeat that limit in the near future through medical research, but in the meantime the oldest people in the world remain between 110-120.

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,07:56   

Is it a problem that Carol is trying to sell her book? I would like to see people read my blog after I publish here but I still try to say something relevant because I am also interested in what goes on with the particular issue of religious types trying to get their religions into public schools.

If Carol offers something to the debate like "Even though the Bible doesn't seem to make explicit statements regarding a young earth etc. it still shouldn't be taught in public schools as anything other than a regional oral history of a tribe of wandering people." or something like that on one side, or maybe "We should teach genesis with my translation because it accurately represents the state of the world as we now know it to be." on the other, then she too would be contributing. I think arguing over her translation is sort of secondary.

Maybe I'll make a post at my blog:
http://brainwashedgod.blogspot.com
what do you think?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,08:12   

Quote (tacitus @ Feb. 15 2006,13:42)
By the way, Carol, the reason no one believes the people who claim to have lived 150 years is simply because it is not biologically possible. Even given perfect health the human body simply wears out. 120 years is just about the limit, with only a tiny number eking out a few more months.

We may be able to defeat that limit in the near future through medical research, but in the meantime the oldest people in the world remain between 110-120.

Oh good god, PLEASE don't open this can of worms with Carol! We've been thru exactly this argument with her & Heddle several times, and I can tell you with great confidence what her position is. She'll no doubt word it in a more flowery or pretentious way than this, but essentially, their position is that Methuselah did indeed make it to 900-whatever years of age, and that there's nothing unscientific about him being that old, because it was a miracle. And the fact it was a miracle makes it possible. By some, uh, miracle, Biblical miracles are outside the realm of science, and yet they also don't contradict science either, because they're miracles. So the total scientific accuracy of the Old Testament is untouched. Got it?

If you press her hard enough, she'll probably come up with some kind of angry response about how people could have just lived longer lives back then, and that it's up to us to prove they didn't. So there.

Believe me, this has been tried before and it is a total waste of time. Carol has a completely self-contained cosmology into which no contradictory information can enter.

Heddle does the exact same thing, except with more of a pseudo-scientific spin, and without the 'you-just-aren't-translating-the-Hebrew-right' shtick.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,08:45   

AC did a nice summarization.

arguments with Carol remind me of the old arguments with JAD, it didn't matter how many holes you poked in his arguments, he just kept repeating them over and over, ad infinitum.

and he still does.  His only champion appears to be someone just as looney as JAD, Dave Scott.

I think Carol should write up a complete paper on her OT thoughts, and submit it to crank.net to see how it fares.

JAD won the title "crankiest" in the evolution section.

I wonder how Carol would do?

  
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,08:54   

Warnings noted :)

  
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