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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 2, general discussion of Dembski's site< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,16:29   

Far and away the best  proof that the Schläger baramin was unintelligently designed:



--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,16:42   

Get your StephenB takedown here. A classic thread.

EDIT:
Quote
No, it doesn’t because you can have a necessary cause without an event, but you cannot have an event without a necessary cause. If A, then B, does not necessarily translate into If B, then A. In order to graduate from high school, one must be alive [necessary cause] and be alive and attend classes [sufficient cause]. But it doesn’t follow that I can graduate from high school without attending classes, even though graduating from high school also requires being alive as a cause. To be uncaused, the student would have to graduate without being alive or attending classes. On the other hand, if the student is alive but doesn’t attend classes, he will not graduate, therefore, the necessary cause was present but the sufficient cause was not.

Longer Sigs please.

EDIT EDIT:
Parachute prepped:
Quote
I am getting ready to go on vacation, so I will soon have to wind things down.


--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,17:10   

How many times?

How many times have we seen this behavior?  I'd say 10 to the 40th but that's just a Wild Ass Guess that Behe emailed me.

Creationist:  I don't see how protein 14 evolved from protein 13.

Real Scientist and Sane Person:  Well, ... cites references, gives 900 page reply, etc.

Creationist:  Gee, I'd like to read all this stuff but I'll be away for a while mining iron on Mars for the next 800 years.  Thanks, I'll get back to you when I return!  Love you!  Jesus Saves!

Instead of turtles all the way down, it's morons.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,18:14   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 28 2009,07:48)
 
Quote (Maya @ Aug. 28 2009,09:45)
I'm feel like I'm channeling Erasmus here, but would Indium please PM me?

The essence of Rasser also flows through Tarden and Carlson.

MY essence mostly flows through your mother.











(And Louis's wife.)

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,18:23   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 28 2009,11:07)
Well, that McWhorter-Behe thread is still producing the TARD.

A poster named "Rage" burbles;
   
Quote
Well, so that’s John McWhorter the linguist!
Linguistics should have been in the forefront of the war on materialism...Chomsky liberated linguistics from the constraints of materialism by granting that human language issues from a creative source for which we haven’t the foggiest of a materialist theory...

it remains for a future generation of linguists sympathetic to Intelligent Design to rescue the field from the radical left and an encroaching postmodernism.


"rescue ID  from an encroaching post-modernism?"

Hell, it's wallowing in it. Ask StephenB and Clive. Without it, they'd be lost.

I think the dipshit in question here means that someone needs to save linguistics from 'encroaching postmodernism'.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,18:27   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 28 2009,13:35)
Quote (Bob O'H @ Aug. 28 2009,14:14)
 
Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 28 2009,12:41)
We also have "JLT" posting from Germany, you can always pm her.

sparc also posts from over there.  And I will be soon as well.



Sort of a "starter kit" for you. No need to thank me.

Why do I suddenly feel like invading Poland?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,18:28   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 28 2009,11:07)
Well, that McWhorter-Behe thread is still producing the TARD.

Did anyone else watch that blogging heads? I listened to it last night. I had never heard of McWhorter, and that interview is surely not his finest hour. You can tell he is an intelligent guy, but you can also tell he is not a biologist. He brought up a few semi-tough issues, but accepts Behe's answers unchallenged. Lots of "Yes! yes!" with vigorous nodding in agreement. To his credit, he is self aware enough to acknowledge several times that he is not a biologist.

I'm in agreement with the statement he issued:
"John McWhorter feels, with regret, that this interview represents neither himself, Professor Behe, nor Bloggingheads usefully, takes full responsibility for same...."

Yup.


Edited to add quotation marks, and to say that Behe surely feels he was represented usefully.

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,18:37   

Quote (Amadan @ Aug. 28 2009,16:29)
Far and away the best  proof that the Schläger baramin was unintelligently designed:


Is that a picture of Denyse O'Leary in her younger days?

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,18:44   

afarensis Denyse O'Leary was a man back then.  might still be.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Maya



Posts: 702
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,18:44   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Aug. 28 2009,18:27)
Why do I suddenly feel like invading Poland?

Oh gee, I couldn't imagine. . .



(Miss Poland 2009 -- a Friday night gift for you guys.)

ETA: I hear O'Leary has the same swimsuit.  I give with one hand, take away with the other.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,18:48   

Quote

Well, you get the idea. And it is an idea, if nothing else. Not an evidentially discerned causal explanation, only, rather, the only possible explanation that a Darwinist has. Find the parts, add natural selection and mutation, and you get the whole. What about actual observation, you ask? Apparently, not necessary, because we are, after all, only trying to satisfy a philosophical presupposition of explanation that must turn from simple to complex, and finding some scattered parts is good enough. Actually seeing the increase in the complexity is not necessary for this kind of “science.”

boy, clive sure peer reviewed that popular narrative from WIRED.  man, he is a keen scientist.

smells like a sweater to me.  but something is different....

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,20:01   

Quote (Maya @ Aug. 28 2009,18:44)
[shnip]

Miss Poland 2009 -- a Friday night gift for you guys...
I hear O'Leary has the same swimsuit.  

I give with one hand, take away with the other.

It's been 40C (104F) lately, but I got a new air conditioning system installed and the detail work finished, just today!  

So now, I have this delicious chilled Rheinhessen Herrenberg Liebfraumilch...I'm listening to Stan Getz-Joao Gilberto lounge-y 60's bossa nova.

And I just threw up a little, in my mouth.

Thank you, Maya

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,20:24   

Quote (Amadan @ Aug. 28 2009,16:29)
Far and away the best  proof that the Schläger baramin was unintelligently designed:


Amadan, I think this guy would look better in a sweater.

Or a camel...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,21:29   

Quote (Maya @ Aug. 28 2009,18:44)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Aug. 28 2009,18:27)
Why do I suddenly feel like invading Poland?

Oh gee, I couldn't imagine. . .



(Miss Poland 2009 -- a Friday night gift for you guys.)

ETA: I hear O'Leary has the same swimsuit.  I give with one hand, take away with the other.

Maya - What time did you tell her to be here to present me with my gift????

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,22:50   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 28 2009,15:20)
     
Quote (Bob O'H @ Aug. 28 2009,14:14)
     
Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 28 2009,12:41)
We also have "JLT" posting from Germany, you can always pm her.

sparc also posts from over there.  And I will be soon as well.

Darwin --> Nazi's proved again!

German --> Nazi?
Calculate the FCSI/FSCI  for a male catholic, non-drinking, non-smoking, occasionally home- and job-less, Wagner loving, former austrian non-scientist.

I must admit though that I've quit smoking recently and that I've worked in Braunschweig where the guy mentioned above became German.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,22:55   

BTW, congratulations Bob.

ETA: In addition, thank you for helping me finding Jesus.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,02:33   

Quote (sparc @ Aug. 28 2009,22:55)
BTW, congratulations Bob.

Thanks.  I'll be in Frankfurt (so those Bavarian stereotypes seem inappropriate.  Woring banker might be better).

Quote
ETA: In addition, thank you for helping me finding Jesus.

I've also found Tarden's Jesus for him:


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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,02:43   

Missed this
   
Quote
34

PaulBurnett

08/28/2009

9:15 am

“hdx” (#32) commented: “Many creationist/ID videos on the Cambrian explosions mention how many forms of animals were first seen in the Cambrian, yet fail to define what a ‘form’ is.”

A “form” is like a “kind” – there’s one “kind” of bacteria, one “kind” of beetle, and so on. See http://creationwiki.org/Baraminology


He must have missed what the quote from hdx:
Quote
Since this video is marketed to non-scientists, does it actually mention that
tunicates (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi.....d.jpg),jpg
lancelets (http://content5.eol.org/conten.....large.jpg),
hagfish(http://www.itsnature.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/hagfish.jpg ),
lampreys, fish, amphibians, reptile, birds and humans all have the same ‘form’ by this definition.

According to Paul, yes.

(edits: code tag -> quote tag)

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Reg



Posts: 112
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,03:12   

Grrr, over at the "Darwinists nobbled Blogginheads" thread I submitted an answer to DATCG's reply to me but it didn't make it past moderation. I've resubmitted it (yeah, some hope) and might as well post it here.

 
Quote
   
Quote
Please do tell Reg. What in that video looks silly? Care to expand on which questions or answers were silly?
I've seen the first few minutes of the video and Dr McWhorter comes across as a bit of an awestruck fan-boy lavishly praising Behe's book. And his mystification at how skunks could possibly have come to be without an Intelligence crafting their stink-squirters was funny.
   
Quote
What you think about the fascist NCSE shutting down Dr. Sternberg after he published an ID friendly paper?
I don't much care about Dr Sternberg being let go, but I'd love to see you give some evidence that the NCSE are fascists. I've not noticed them herding opponents into extermination camps, wanting to implement a policy of "racial hygiene" or trying to eradicate Jews.


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"Even though I am not a creationist by any reasonable definition ... the Cambrian explosion was doubtless the work of God in my view but I would say that of all creation." - Denyse O'Leary, Oct 17, 2009.

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,03:27   

Quote
I don't much care about Dr Sternberg being let go, but I'd love to see you give some evidence that the NCSE are fascists. I've not noticed them herding opponents into extermination camps, wanting to implement a policy of "racial hygiene" or trying to eradicate Jews.

He wasn't "let go".  The Smithsonian didn't do anything, other than move him from one office to another during a re-shuffle.

Personally, I think he was lucky not to be denied access to the collections, because he wasn't taking care of the accessions he had taken to his office.  Basic things like not refilling the preservative.

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Reg



Posts: 112
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,03:49   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Aug. 29 2009,03:27)
He wasn't "let go".  The Smithsonian didn't do anything, other than move him from one office to another during a re-shuffle.

My mistake - I didn't know that. I thought his contract expired and wasn't renewed... I think I got his employment at Smithsonian mixed up with his term as journal editor coming to an end.
Being moved from one office to another is, wow, erm, quite heavy handed intimidation. Yeah. Practically equivalent to being taken out into the alleyway and beaten with 2x4's by masked minions of Eugenie Scott.

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"Even though I am not a creationist by any reasonable definition ... the Cambrian explosion was doubtless the work of God in my view but I would say that of all creation." - Denyse O'Leary, Oct 17, 2009.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,07:10   

Gordon Mullings
 
Quote
5] Partitioned search and weasel are different beats!

Not so fast, pardnuh!

Up to 2000, the information the public has had in hand was the showcased runs of 1986, and the description of cumulative targetted search. on this premise, it is reasonable — thus legitimate — to construct a weasel that uses the obvious mechanism, explicit latching.

Subsequent to that time, we have had statements from Mr Dawkins and co that Weasel did not explicitly latch at any stage — but mo credible c. 1986 code. (And BTW, commenter Apollos on this site has shown that explicitly latched weasels can be programed to show reversions. ONLY CREDIBLE CODE WILL BE DEMONSTRATIVE, IN THIS LIGHT.)

We have accepted the testimony on the presumption of charity, and have demonstrated that latching is feasible on an IMPLICIT basis. (Note, this makes no difference to the already discussed point that weasel demonstrates the power of active information, not chance variation and natural selection based on complex function.)

An explicitly latched weasel is a legitimate interpretation of the information given. And that is part of the point of the EIL demonstration: many weasels are possible and they give various patterns of behaviour, sometimes convergent, sometimes divergent. And in particular, implicit latching is a point of convergence between explicitly latched partitioned search and proximity reward search.

6] What about the BBC Horizon 1987 program?

This has often been held to demonstrate that Weasel as originally coded did not latch. Of course, it now is apparent that the winking effect is possibly due to the video highlighting the members of generations, not the generational champions.

A result that — as was acknowledged above by the commenter who raised it — is entirely compatible with: IMPLICIT LATCHING.

Beyond that, the gap between 1986 and 1987 together with the demonstrated impact of shifting parameters on a proximity reward algorithm without EXPLICIT latching — we can get latching, quasi-latching and far from latched behaviour — indicates that the 1987 run does not ground a claim that Weasel c 1986 as showcased did not latch and ratchet to the target in a cumulative process.

Hahahahah


EDIT:
Quote
many weasels are possible and they give various patterns of behaviour

hahahaha.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,08:40   

First we had CSI! Then FCSI!! er FSCI!!! Now CCSI!!!!

Quote
niwrad: Coupled Complex Specified Information

Consider this paradoxical scenario: NASA decides to construct a new space station and a new space shuttle. It assigns to a team of engineers the job of designing the station and to another team the job of designing the shuttle, without any specifications about the relations between the two projects and the mandate that they must not exchange information (the projects are top secret). The teams finish their work and the systems are launched into the space. Would you bet one cent that the shuttle will succeed to dock to the station to exchange materials and astronauts?

Surely German cars can never drive on American roads. And plague bacilli that infect rats can never infect humans. And Capt. Cook could never land at the docks in Tahiti. And biological structures, such as legs for walking, can never be used for swimming.

The interface can be generalized, then become more specialized over time. NASA teams working independently would make the interface as general as possible, then make enhancements through specialization once they meet. Duh.

Quote
niwrad: In railway: the train and the railroad; the locomotive and the wagon.

The train track is a specialization of the road. First horse and cart on a road, then a horse and cart on a rail, then a locomotive to replace the horse.



-
Edited to add image.


--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
OWKtree



Posts: 16
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,09:17   

Quote (Zachriel @ Aug. 29 2009,08:40)
First we had CSI! Then FCSI!! er FSCI!!! Now CCSI!!!!

The train track is a specialization of the road. First horse and cart on a road, then a horse and cart on a rail, then a locomotive to replace the horse.


Railroad creationism!  The iron horse was "poofed" into existance.  And the fact that the various railroad gauges (width between the two rails) tends to match cart sizes from that time is purely a co-inky-dink!!!1!!!   :O

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,09:32   

CCSI!!!!

Not to be confused with

   Cross-Cultural Smell Identification
   Channel Coding with Side Information
   CopperCore Service Integration
   Cognitive Coping Strategies Inventory

or the Inc's.

   Coordinated Care Services Inc.
   Creative Computing Solutions, Inc.
   Contemporary Computer Services, Inc.

Kudos to Uncommon Descent. They're listed as the #1 resource on Google for information related to "Coupled Complex Specified Information".

--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,09:50   

CC&SI
Completely Crazy & Stupidly Ignorant

Oh wait.. that's Glenn Beck!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,09:58   

Quote (Zachriel @ Aug. 29 2009,10:32)
CCSI!!!!

Not to be confused with

   Cross-Cultural Smell Identification
   Channel Coding with Side Information
   CopperCore Service Integration
   Cognitive Coping Strategies Inventory

or the Inc's.

   Coordinated Care Services Inc.
   Creative Computing Solutions, Inc.
   Contemporary Computer Services, Inc.

Kudos to Uncommon Descent. They're listed as the #1 resource on Google for information related to "Coupled Complex Specified Information".

Crappy Creationist Sciency Initials

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,10:01   

When you follow niwraD's link niwraD's link you will find yourself in the middle of CCSI like this one:  
Quote
Male and female individuals of a species have apparatuses exactly organized to interface each other. Male and female individuals of a species have the same degree of complexity. They are quite similar but not identical. The key point here is the interface between them, which in this case is based on their differences. It would be a non-sense to consider the male reproductive apparatus alone, without considering the complementary female reproductive apparatus. Each of these two organisms independently from the other can entails Darwinian evolutionary mechanisms. Each of these two organisms can live in the environment and exploit many identical functions. But there are highly complex functions that can be achieved only if they strictly cooperate thank to their complementary apparatuses. So we are in front of something that is sensitive to name "complementary specified complexity


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Maya



Posts: 702
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,10:05   

Quote (Zachriel @ Aug. 29 2009,08:40)
First we had CSI! Then FCSI!! er FSCI!!! Now CCSI!!!!

And still free of any link to biology or usable mathematics!  Helps keep your choirboy figure!

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2009,10:13   

Quote (sparc @ Aug. 29 2009,11:01)
When you follow niwraD's link niwraD's link you will find yourself in the middle of CCSI like this one:    
Quote
Male and female individuals of a species have apparatuses exactly organized to interface each other. Male and female individuals of a species have the same degree of complexity. They are quite similar but not identical. The key point here is the interface between them, which in this case is based on their differences. It would be a non-sense to consider the male reproductive apparatus alone, without considering the complementary female reproductive apparatus. Each of these two organisms independently from the other can entails Darwinian evolutionary mechanisms. Each of these two organisms can live in the environment and exploit many identical functions. But there are highly complex functions that can be achieved only if they strictly cooperate thank to their complementary apparatuses. So we are in front of something that is sensitive to name "complementary specified complexity

more scientifically ignorant tripe

 
Quote
Assessment of rampant genitalic variation in the spider genus Homalonychus (Araneae, Homalonychidae)
Author(s): Crews SC (Crews, Sarah C.)1
Source: INVERTEBRATE BIOLOGY    Volume: 128    Issue: 2    Pages: 107-125    Published: 2009  


The results also show that analyses of female structures do not separate the groups as readily as the analyses of the male structures. The large amount of variation present in some structures is not correlated with geography or population genetic structure.

 
Quote
Extreme intraspecific variation in Hystrichophora (Lepidoptera: Tortricidae) genitalia - questioning the lock-and-key hypothesis
Author(s): Gilligan TM (Gilligan, Todd M.)1, Wenzel JW (Wenzel, John W.)1
Source: ANNALES ZOOLOGICI FENNICI    Volume: 45    Issue: 6    Pages: 465-477    Published: DEC 30 2008  


The resulting extreme levels of intraspecific variation support evolution by means of sexual selection and reject the traditional lock-and-key hypothesis.

 
Quote
Taxonomic revision of Mecyclothorax Sharp (Coleoptera, Carabidae) of Hawaii Island: abundant genitalic variation in a nascent island radiation
Author(s): Liebherr JK (Liebherr, James K.)
Source: DEUTSCHE ENTOMOLOGISCHE ZEITSCHRIFT    Volume: 55    Issue: 1    Pages: 19-78    Published: 2008  


The observed variation is consistent with various hypotheses of sexual selection, but not with the genitalic lock and key hypothesis.

Quote
Thoughts concerning taxonomy, with remarks about some palaearctic Scydmaenidae (Coleoptera)
Author(s): Castellini, Giorgio (leptomastax@inwind.it)
Source: Annali del Museo Civico di Storia Naturale Giacomo Doria Volume: 98 Pages: 1-121 Published: 2006-2007


So far as the copulatory structures are concerned, there is no morphoanatomical congruence between male and female
----------------------------

and so on.

i didn't even get to the fred hoyle paper on spiders i was thinking of.  there is evidence for lock and key of course.  as with all things ecology and evolutionary, they follow Erasmus' rule.

1)  Shit Varies
2)  It matters
3)  Sometimes.

niwrad is a fool

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
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