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Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 10 2008,22:15   

"BIG TARD" WANTS TO EXPEL! POACHY

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
dochocson



Posts: 62
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 10 2008,22:32   

I'm surprised that Poachy is has avoided the ban-hammer thus far.

I'm also getting a kick out of the debate as to whether Poachy is a troll. Charlie finally applies the "sock puppet" moniker appropriately, I think.

Oh, and Dr. Dr. (?)Dr. Dembski thinks that Stein is a bang-up lawyer, so all must be well.

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All bleeding stops...eventually.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 10 2008,22:42   

Busted.

This has ATBC written all over it.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,00:09   

Here's a perfect test case for the explanitory filter:

Radivoje Lajic: The man who attracts meteorites

It seems that Mr. Lajic, a Bosnian, has had his house hit by meteorites five times.  Says Mr. Lajic, “I am obviously being targeted by extraterrestrials. I don’t know what I have done to annoy them but there is no other explanation that makes sense. The chance of being hit by a meteorite is so small that getting hit five times has to be deliberate.”

So what do you think, Dr. Dr. Dembski?  Chance?  Law?  Or does Some Designer really hate Radivoje's guts?

Mr. Radivoje, in the meantime, has put a "steel girder reinforced roof" on his  house.

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,00:51   

What's amusing is poor bFast.  Here,here, and here he shills (shrills?) for a new topic about how recent work seems to have placed the metazoan root closer to comb jellies than sponges.  He's absolutely convinced that this is "solidly not predicted by NDE", yet doesn't seem to have actually read the article. I think some of the wording is a bit misleading, but it's clear the work is entirely grounded in evolutionary theory from start to finish. Two evolutionary scenarios are even presented in the article:

 
Quote

The finding was unexpected because evolutionary biologists had thought that less complex animals split off and evolved separately first. Dunn says that two evolutionary scenarios can explain why the comb jellies would actually have been first among animals. The first is that the comb jelly evolved its complexity independent of other animals after branching off to forge its own path.

The second is that the sponge evolved its simpler form from the more complex form. This second possibility underscores the fact that "evolution is not necessarily just a march towards increased complexity," Dunn said.


The rest is here: http://www.livescience.com/animals/080410-first-animal.html

And if you need more data on bFast's vast and terrifying powers of observation, there's this in between pleas for the new topic:
 
Quote

bFast

04/10/2008

10:00 pm

I am baffled! I went thorugh each of Poachy’s posts in this thread. None of them in any way suggest to me that he is a troll. Can y’all provide quotes from Poachy that lead you to this view so that I know what to avoid so that I don’t get flamed in the future?


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I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,07:00   

Quote (ck1 @ April 10 2008,19:08)
I noticed UD has a thread on ERVs.  I am a virologist and I have been working on ERVs for 30+ years, so I sent in 3 comments to answer questions that came up.  Only one of those comments has appeared.

All of my comments were focused on science -- no commentary, no insults.  Links to papers.

Was I wasting my time?

Are scientists not welcome at UD?

I've read your posts there - keep it up! Yours come across as intelligent and informed, and you avoid their hot buttons. Similar to the approach taken by Professor MacNeill, whose posts I (a total biology numbskull) find entertainingly informative. How long he can keep it up before their demands for an exogenous designer become overwhelmingly shrill is anybody's guess. In the meantime, one can always hope that somebody is paying attention...assuming that's his (and your) objective.

Association with AtBC might not be healthy for your long-term status there, naturally.

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,07:07   

bfast got his wish.

@didymos
I like the avatar: L Ron Hoover, ridding a tomato of its engrams with the e-meter. ALL SCIENTOLOGY SO FAR!

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,08:04   

Quote (dogdidit @ April 11 2008,05:07)
bfast got his wish.

Yeah, bFast even got thanked for it.  You just know he was so proud of that. Which is really rather sad. And I actually mean that:  the fact that anyone derives satisfaction by contributing anything, however small, to the perpetuation of ID or any other pseudoscience is worthy of pity. Not a lot, but at least a little every now and then.

 
Quote (dogdidit @ April 11 2008,05:07)

@didymos
I like the avatar: L Ron Hoover, ridding a tomato of its engrams with the e-meter. ALL SCIENTOLOGY SO FAR!


Thanks.  Sort of self-defeating on LRon's part, though.  If anything is going to irreversibly traumatize a tomato, it's L. Ron Hubbard.

OT link, a personal favorite:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29709

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I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,08:05   

Does DaveTard have a sense of humor after all?
Quote
I’ve written probably a million words on this blog and when someone has to reach back years through all of that to find a mistake it’s a clear example of the exception that proves the rule. The rule being that I, like Rush Limbaugh, am right 99.7% of the time. Maybe more.

Link
My Bold.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,08:26   

Quote (dogdidit @ April 11 2008,07:00)

Association with AtBC might not be healthy for your long-term status there, naturally.

Not that it's lethal - Bob O'H seems to be able to cross the divide. But make no mistake, the ubersturmBANfuhrer is on the constant prowl for his next victim. Their totem god needs frequent sacrifices.

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,08:51   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ April 11 2008,08:05)
Does DaveTard have a sense of humor after all?
Quote
I’ve written probably a million words on this blog and when someone has to reach back years through all of that to find a mistake it’s a clear example of the exception that proves the rule. The rule being that I, like Rush Limbaugh, am right 99.7% of the time. Maybe more.

Link
My Bold.

It's in my signature already.  Classic tard.

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If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
BCtheEra



Posts: 18
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,08:54   

Quote (olegt @ April 11 2008,08:51)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ April 11 2008,08:05)
Does DaveTard have a sense of humor after all?
 
Quote
I’ve written probably a million words on this blog and when someone has to reach back years through all of that to find a mistake it’s a clear example of the exception that proves the rule. The rule being that I, like Rush Limbaugh, am right 99.7% of the time. Maybe more.

Link
My Bold.

It's in my signature already.  Classic tard.

Quote

152

Frost122585

04/11/2008

8:10 am

yeah, and the other .2 or .3% is when your (sic) debating me dave.

That is some good tard.

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,09:09   

The sharks are circling. Charlie to poachy:
Quote
Be honest and take your banning like a man.

Old thesis: poachy is a sockpuppet.
New thesis: Charlie is. To survive, the stronger sockpuppets fling the weaker ones into the maw of the Banninator.

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
BCtheEra



Posts: 18
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,09:21   

Quote (dogdidit @ April 11 2008,09:09)
The sharks are circling. Charlie to poachy:
Quote
Be honest and take your banning like a man.

Old thesis: poachy is a sockpuppet.
New thesis: Charlie is. To survive, the stronger sockpuppets fling the weaker ones into the maw of the Banninator.

See?!  Science is always changing!  How can it be trusted to provide a foundation for reality?!

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,09:48   

Quote (dogdidit @ April 11 2008,09:09)
The sharks are circling. Charlie to poachy:
Quote
Be honest and take your banning like a man.

Old thesis: poachy is a sockpuppet.
New thesis: Charlie is. To survive, the stronger sockpuppets fling the weaker ones into the maw of the Banninator.

Poachy's going down, man. I can tell.

Poachy, we hardly knew ye.  :(

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,10:06   

Quote (BCtheEra @ April 11 2008,09:21)
     
Quote (dogdidit @ April 11 2008,09:09)
The sharks are circling. Charlie to poachy:
       
Quote
Be honest and take your banning like a man.

Old thesis: poachy is a sockpuppet.
New thesis: Charlie is. To survive, the stronger sockpuppets fling the weaker ones into the maw of the Banninator.

See?!  Science is always changing!  How can it be trusted to provide a foundation for reality?!

More to the point, my thesis is testable. From our poachy:
Quote
FYI. You might want to google “Leopold Stotch”, then tell me who is the troll.

Hypothesis confirmed!!  :D We can use this theory to partial order the UD sockpuppets and form further testable predicitions.

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,10:12   

I run time-consuming matlab batch jobs on computer A, which frees up me and computer B to trawl for gems. Here's a sparkly:
Quote
“Genes that do code for proteins may recruit some or all of this junk DNA to regulate when, where and how much they are expressed.”

Genes are recruiting? I understand that sometimes these things are just a form of speaking, but in this context, I can’t possibly imagine what physical process he could be referring to.

You could, oh I don't know, ask a biochemist??
Quote
Has anyone else noticed that when evolutionists get stuck they automatically start anthropomorphizing their research subjects?

They do that to refresh Creationist quote-mining filters.
Quote
Someone please explain the physical process a gene uses to recruit regulatory elements, and please do so without reference to existing regulatory processes and DNA, since the emergence of this is precisely the phenomena you are supposing to explain.

(my bolding)
*cue the moving goalposts*
link

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,10:27   

Is there no honour among sock-puppets?
Quote

FYI. You might want to google “Leopold Stotch”, then tell me who is the troll.


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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,10:59   

Hey Bob!

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-229799

 
Quote
It’s rigorous not rigourous.


Sorry, DaveTard, it's both:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigour

Must be having one of those >0.3% days, eh?

Edited twice, second time to remove the first!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,11:41   

Quote (Bob O'H @ April 11 2008,10:27)
Is there no honour among sock-puppets?  
Quote

FYI. You might want to google “Leopold Stotch”, then tell me who is the troll.

So, if there were no sock-puppets at UD, how many comments do you suppose they would get?

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,12:02   

Demsbkie posts a CORAL RIDGE MINISTRIES interview with BS.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/expelle....n-stein

I don't think this helps them. At all. WAD is on for a hat-trick of own goals.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,12:17   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 11 2008,12:02)
Demsbkie posts a CORAL RIDGE MINISTRIES interview with BS.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/expelle....n-stein

I don't think this helps them. At all. WAD is on for a hat-trick of own goals.

Well, it is Friday.  Dembski has always done his best work on Fridays.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,12:17   

leo found out about being thrown to the tards, and turned state's evidence:
 
Quote

leo stotch

04/11/2008

12:04 pm

Wow! It appears to be the day to throw each other under the bus. Charlie and Lutepisc inform the authorities on poor ole Poachy, who promptly tattles on me. I guess I need to rat on somebody, but who?

I know, how about that Denyse O’Leary? She claims to be Canadian, but she neither end her sentences with “eh!” nor talks about hockey. That is kind of suspicious, isn’t it?


--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,13:45   

Don't miss David Bolinsky's e-mail published at RichardDawkins.net:  
Quote
To the anti-ID community which is giving XVIVO support in our ideological battle against the microcephalic apostates of "Intelligent Design":

XVIVO created The Inner Life of the Cell for Harvard, through fourteen months of painstaking examination of how a myriad of systems, functional structures and proteins in a cell, could be depicted in a sweeping panoramic style of animation, reminiscent of cinema, that fundamentally raised the bar on the visualization of molecular and cellular biology for undergraduate students. In depicting what we did, other than merely maintaining the intent of the syllabus, we needed to edit like mad. A cell has billions of molecules, millions of active functional proteins and tens of thousands of structural elements separating, sequestering and joining compartments and systems into a functional whole. An initial foundational decision process of our creative vision, consisted of editing out 95% of the contents of our cell in order to gain, for our virtual camera, a vista to visualize what elements we left in. The decisions we made blended aesthetics with science. They were not made lightly, nor were they made without extensive consultation with researchers at Harvard, and an extensive body of literature, including protein data libraries and new findings by Harvard researchers.

Given the vast number of structures to be removed, and given the structures remaining "on camera", whose positioning and relationships, both aesthetic and functional, needed to remain true to the function and beauty of molecular biology, it is inconceivable, mathematically, that the animator hired by EXPELLED's producers, independently and randomly came up with the same identical actin filament mesh XVIVO depicted in one scene, which had never before been rendered anywhere in 3D! It is astonishing that among well over a dozen functional kinesins from which an animator might choose, we both chose the same configuration of kinesin, pulling the same protein-studded vesicle, on the same microtubule! Can YOU believe we coincidentally picked the same camera angles and left in the same specific structures in the background, positioned with the same composition? Equally astonishing is the "Intellgent Design" treatment of these and other proteins surfaces, which XVIVO derived using procedural iso-surface skinning of the PDB cloud data of our proteins' atom placement. There are an infinite number of possble "correct" solutions to that problem.

Coincidence? Given their "access to the same literature" we had, where Graham Johnson at Scripps so brilliantly worked out the real motion of kinesins, I am simply blown away that the "Intelligent Design" animators slavishly made the hands of their kenesins move exactly as we did, even though we intentionally left out the stochastic Brownian motion which actually characterizes the tractive force and periodic pedicle placement of these tiny motivators. We simply did not have the time or budget to render these, and a dozen other details, to the level of insanity we would like to have done! This was, after all, an underfunded proof-of-concept piece. The cellular biology that serves as "filler" material, between scenes copied from Inner Life, is riddled with biological errors. Imagine "Intelligent Design's" depiction of protein synthesis without ribosomes!

To Mr. Dembski: The only reason I am involved in this discussion is because I do not want the reputation of my company, hard-earned as it is, to be sullied by even oblique affiliation to your sort of smarmy ethics, if only through works of ours, purloined to fit your agenda. Last year you were charging colleges thousands of dollars to give lectures showing a copy of The Inner Life of the Cell, you claimed you "found somewhere", with Harvard's and XVIVO's credits stripped out and the copyright notice removed (which is in itself a felony) and a creationist voice-over pasted on over our music (yes, I have a recording of your lecture). Harvard slapped you down for that, and yes there is a paper trail. One can only assume that had we not taken notice then, we would be debating The Inner Life of the Cell being used in EXPELLED, instead of a copy. You have enough of a colorful history that Harvard, in its wisdom, decided to 'swat the gnat' with as little fuss as possible. Imagine our surprise earlier this month, to see our work copied in a movie trailer for EXPELLED! And you are in the movie too! Not quite a star, but brown dwarfs are cool. XVIVO has no intention of engaging alone, in asymmetrical fighting against an ideological entity with orders of magnitude more resources than we have. That might make great theater, but would resemble a hugely expensive game of whack-a-ID. Boring!

It makes me happy, though, that you decided to implicate your friends in print, on your blog (http://www.uncommondescent.com/legal/expelled-plagiarizing-harvard/#comment-229619), in what is legally, malignant infringement, since you no had doubt discussed with EXPELLED's producers, Harvard's previous legal infringement action against you, the Discovery Institute, where you are a fellow and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, where you teach. Once we uncover the EXPELLED animation dollar trail, and bring it to light, we will have even more fun. The sublimely ridiculous claim that EXPELLED uses completely original animation, in light of copying our work so closely that a budget was reserved to pay for an infringement suit by Harvard, is delicious! Why should I try to take you guys down when you are doing such a splendid job yourselves? For free! So go ahead and release your movie. Just keep track of how many tickets you sell. We may just find that data valuable, too.

David Bolinsky


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,13:50   

I like this cat!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,13:55   

I don’t know Rich. I think David Bolinski's e-mail was ugly. He should not, I suspect, have used terms like “microcephalic” and “smarmy” He is now involved in serious litigation, not engaging in flame wars on Pharyngula. He should have maintained a professional demeanor.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,14:03   

You're entitled to be miffed when someone steals your work. And then uses it as part of an agenda to discredit the field you work in. And then links it to the holocaust. And they smell of doo-doo.

Is the Heddle space telescope nearing completion? I want to witness the power of this fully operational battlestation telescope!

I'm suprised this meme hasn't caught on. IF ONLY IT WASN'T PREDESTINED! *shakes fist at sky*

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,14:12   

DaveTard finds space for his other foot, 3 bags of cheesy poofs and Io, moon of jupiter (Sorry Zach):

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-229834

Quote
90

DaveScot

04/11/2008

1:47 pm
BobOH

I hate to have to educate you on British spelling rules but I feel compelled. In this case the spelling rule is not unique to British spelling.

Any word in the english language follows this rule:

If the word ends in “-our” (like honour and rigour) you must drop the u out of “our” when adding either the suffix “-ous” or “-ary”. Honour becomes honorary and rigour become rigorous.

I don’t make the rules so don’t shoot the messenger.


Again,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigour

Edit to add: Maybe Dave is right - Most dictionary searches don't like "rigourous", but I've not been very rigorous .

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,14:45   

And finally, I suspected DaveTard was wrong, because.... he's Davetard.


Here it is:
http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-229841

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,15:38   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 11 2008,09:45)
And finally, I suspected DaveTard was wrong, because.... he's Davetard.


Here it is:
http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-229841

Credit where credit's due.

  
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