Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::AF Dave Has More Questions About Apes

Posted: May 22 2006,10:08

Gene-Oh writes:

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Come on Paley, tell us what you think. Did some primate eat a guinea pig and transfered the broken GULO to its progeny, or the contrary?

No Pepe, I do not believe this. You fail to understand my ground-breaking theory. I am not a crank. I do not believe organisms can pass on character traits to their progeny via food. I only maintain food confounds genetic testing results. Since both humans and apes--and guines pigs too--eat bananas, their alleged "similarities" are based on this. The anthropologist Jonathan Marks in this seminal paper* describes the great genetic similarities between humans and bananas. I wonder where this comes from? Other Creationists have noticed this too. My theory becomes very plausible once the morally and intellectually corrosive dogma is Darwinism is discarded!

*--Unfortunately, unless you have access to a University library or a subscription to this journal this article will cost money.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Drew Headley

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Posted: May 22 2006,10:12

Quote (afdave @ May 22 2006,14:58)

I know you responded to my claim of 'no hominid civilizations' but I don't agree that some bones and cave writing is evidence for this. �My contention is that if apes and humans have a common ancestor, there should be lots of 'beetle brow civilizations' all over the earth with half ape-men who grunt a lot and have a simple language and are at some stage between chimps and humans. �These 'people' should be living today if evolution were true.

Why should evolution lead to there being multiple hominid societies today? If they were out-competed by homo sapiens early on why do they need to be here today? This seems to have been what happened to the neanderthals.

Rilke's Granddaughter

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Joined: Jan. 2005

Posted: May 22 2006,10:19

Dave, I realize you have reading comprehension problems and you are a chronic liar.

Now these are highly unChristian things (well, the lying part, anyway). Why do them? Why be so immoral? Why be so stupid? Why not actually try addressing an issue for a change?

For your benefit (and, of course, the benefit of the lurkers).

What's most amusing about Dave at the moment is the fact that he's struggling so badly making an argument: the accuracy of his original statement having been swiftly and thoroughly shown to be non-existent.

Let's consider: what would it take to show that Portuguese is a mixture of French and Spanish?

Option 1) A linguistic history of the language showing that it had developed from these two other tongues.

Unfortunately option 1 is eliminated because these languages did not exist when Portuguese developed.

Option 2) Show, by linguistic analysis, that Portuguese is comprised of an admixture of French and Spanish vocabulary; French and Spanish grammar; and French and Spanish pronunciation.

Unfortunately, option 2 is eliminated because Dave can't actually show those things.

Now Dave, we realize that you can continue to make yourself look like a fool by persisting in your inability to admit that your first statement was idiotically wrong; your second statement a cover-up AND idiotically wrong; and your continuing statements a cover-up, irrelevant, AND idiotically wrong.

Or you can demonstrate some intellectual credibility and Christian ethics by admitting that you were mistaken, that you lied, and that you're ignorant.

Feel free to start any time.

Remember - we are trying to help you. I know that arguments and discussion with adults can be trying and hard, but if you just persevere and do your homework, you'll be ready for it!

Dave, doesn't it bother you to be wrong all the time? Wouldn't you like to be right occasionally? Do you really like looking like a fool?

I mean, if you honestly enjoy looking stupid, we're more than happy to oblidge: you're fun to laugh at, I'll grant you that.

The Ghost of Paley

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Posted: May 22 2006,10:19

BWE writes:

Quote

DDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

AAAAAAARRRRRRREEEEEE
YYYYYOOOOOUUUU
TTTTTTAAAAAAKIKKKIIIINNNNGG
MMMMMYYYYYYY
BBBBEEEEEEETTTTTT

When do we start?

I was just wondering; did you get yo mamma a nice present for Mother's Day in appreciation for letting you use her photograph as an avatar?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

BWE

Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: May 22 2006,10:22

Quote

Quote
DDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

AAAAAAARRRRRRREEEEEE
YYYYYOOOOOUUUU
TTTTTTAAAAAAKIKKKIIIINNNNGG
MMMMMYYYYYYY
BBBBEEEEEEETTTTTT

When do we start?

NNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOO! I won already ... now be a gentleman and go help Rilke crawl out from under that big branch I sawed off. I think she hit her head when she fell because she's hallucinating now.

No, you didn't win. I haven't even presented a case yet. How could you have won if I haven't even had my say yet?

Quote

I know you responded to my claim of 'no hominid civilizations' but I don't agree that some bones and cave writing is evidence for this. My contention is that if apes and humans have a common ancestor, there should be lots of 'beetle brow civilizations' all over the earth with half ape-men who grunt a lot and have a simple language and are at some stage between chimps and humans. These 'people' should be living today if evolution were true.

(Rilke-- I'm glad to see you believe in Jesus now ... maybe you could tell BWE about Him)

1/2-a-Dave,
three things:

1) What about evolution predicts the homonid societies? This is a point that merits some understanding of niches and ecosystems. And evolution.

2) Regarding Rilkes GD, Jesus, and Me: HAHAHAHAHAHA

3) Dave, it's not just because you are so stupid that I am making fun of you. It's because your stupidity is nearly equalled by your hubris in thinking that you are somehow making a case for anything.

-In the Portuguese/French thing: I could have let it go. I understand why you said what you said and I could coherently argue your case to some extent. But you have been so cosmically dense in all of your assertions that I was pointing out that you couldn't even support a nominally supportable claim if presented with an opposing side. I offered to provide that opposing side.

To prove my point, I suppose, you claimed victory instead of engaging in the debate.

which brings me to a fourth point. Anybody care to guess what that one is?

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Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

Russell

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Posted: May 22 2006,10:23

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Surely, davy, surely after pages and pages of discussion on this, you're not going to pretend that Max's only evidence is "a broken GULO gene".

D'oh! You are, aren't you!?

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I'm sure he has many more reasons why he thinks he is related to chimps, but the item of discussion on this thread most recently is THIS piece of evidence.

Look. This is from his essay: �

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4.1. Shared unitary pseudogenes. Many of the unitary pseudogenes in humans described previously are shared with other primates. By "shared" I mean more than simply that the same gene is inactive in two different species, since that situation could result if the corresponding genes of the two species were inactivated separately by independent mutations. Instead, in all the examples I describe, the pseudogenes in primates carry many of the same crippling mutations found in the corresponding human pseudogenes. Since independent random mutations would not be likely to be identical in two different species, the identically mutated pseudogenes are strong evidence that the mutations occurred in a common ancestral species.

So you see, as has been pointed out to you about a thousand times, it's not "A broken GULO gene", it's the pattern of breaks in it, and the fact that said pattern reflects, and is predicted by, common descent. Now, despite this being pointed out to you about a thousand times, in several different ways, by several different people, with several different modes of emphasis, you come back yet again with: �

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And let me say again ... I agree, it's a piece of evidence. �But it argues equally well for both Common Descent and Common Design. �Remember the Aerostar and the Fiesta?

Remember my question in response? �

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The question is not just "why is there similarity?" The question is "why is the pattern of similarities organized just like a phylogeny?" Presumably your common designer designed guinea pigs, rats, monkeys and humans, right? Why is there a nested hierarchy of similarities in DNA sequence?

�

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But just for the record, it's not just one or two "holdouts" - so far as I can tell no one here other than you thinks you "won" that little dust-up.

�

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most of them probably do agree with me, but they wouldn't dare admit it and betray "the team."

Ah, the old "the lurkers support me in e-mail" gambit. Pretty sad. Heck. Why not just be done with it, and claim that Max privately agrees with you?

This, again, looks to me like classic projection. Defeated six ways to Sunday, afdave will be damned (perhaps literally) if he's going to let down Team Jesus by admitting it!

You know, you're not going to convince anyone reading this discussion that you have made the slightest dent in evolution in general, or Max's essay in particular. But you are making a very negative advertisement for your version religion. If I were in the market for one, I'd steer as clear of yours as possible.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

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Posted: May 22 2006,10:31

AFDave is certainly advertising for his religion. But I don't think he'd like what the ad says.

Join Young Earth Christianity today! Tell the experts you know better than them! Then refuse to understand, when they try a hundred times to correct you! Then say you won! All this and more can be yours, if you join Young Earth Christianity! Do it!

ericmurphy

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Joined: Oct. 2005

Posted: May 22 2006,10:33

Quote (afdave @ May 22 2006,14:58)

I know you responded to my claim of 'no hominid civilizations' but I don't agree that some bones and cave writing is evidence for this. My contention is that if apes and humans have a common ancestor, there should be lots of 'beetle brow civilizations' all over the earth with half ape-men who grunt a lot and have a simple language and are at some stage between chimps and humans. These 'people' should be living today if evolution were true

Dave, Dave, Dave.

Taxonomically speaking, hominidae is an extremely sparse clade (compare it to, say, beetles, or ants). There are only half a dozen species of great apes. Humans aside, it's not a very successful group of organisms. Of the half-dozen great apes currently extant, only one has come up with a civilization (and it remains to be seen just how successful an experiment that turns out to have been). And in case you haven't noticed, all but one of the dozens of hominid species that have ever existed are now extinct. If they still existed, who knows? Maybe some of them might have been smart enough (or dumb enough) to come up with a civilization. Here in reality, they didn't get the chance.

Now, Dave, can you explain to us why evolution predicts lots of different hominid civilizations? Because I don't see how any civilization, anywhere, is a logical consequence of evolutionary thinking. It's probably entirely accidental that there's civilization, let alone multiple civilizations, here on earth.

Sure, there's evidence of some sort of primitive "civilizations" predating the appearance of H. sapiens. But even if there weren't, that wouldn't even be evidence against evolution, let alone a disproof of it. If space aliens had set down on Manhattan island a million years ago and noted the absence of evidence of civilization, would they have used that observation as evidence against evolution?

You have to do more than just make naked assertions around here, Dave. That might work at your Sunday Bible study meetings, but here you at least have to put together a coherent argument. And a little supporting evidence would help, too.

Speaking of which�young earth? Biblical inerrancy? Hello? Anyone out there?

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BWE

Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: May 22 2006,10:34

GoP, You're alright no matter what everyone says about you.:)

When do we get to hear about the scale-free network dealy-thingy?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

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Posted: May 22 2006,10:40

Don't hold your breath waiting for that 'compelling' evidence. It ain't there.

jstockwell

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Posted: May 22 2006,10:41

Hi afdave,

I can see that you're not understanding the basics of phylogeny and the evidence that support common descent. Before you can attempt to disprove something, you have to understand it first.

So last time, I think it helped you see clearer when direct illustrations of the evidence, instead of just quotations of experts, were presented. So I'll do that again. This is an example from Fukuyama 2005, if you want to look up the source yourself.

Let's look at the sequence of a gene across several primates. From top to bottom, it will be Human, Chimpanzee, Gorilla, Orangutan, Rhesus monkey. The ... portions indicate stretches where all 5 are identical for 1000-2000 bases.

CACAATA...TGAGC...GAAGAGATG...GTGAAAG...A
CACAATA...GGAGC...GAAGAGACG...GTGAAAG...A
CACAATA...TGAGT...TAAGAGAGG...TTGAAAG...A
CACAATA...TGAGT...TAAGAGACG...TTGAAAC...A
CACACTG...TGAGT...TAAGAGACA...TTGAAAT...G

Hope that formats correctly. So, what do we make of this data? Clearly there are differences. Interestingly, the differences are shared across some species. Some are shared across multiple species. Our analysis is complicated by the fact that DNA substitutions can hide previous substitutions, such as A --> C --> A. But if we do the analysis based on parsimony, that is, the fewest substitutions needed to explain the data, we come up with a phylogeny.

Now, as a solitary exercise, this isn't rock solid. As explained, you make an assumption of parsimony, and the vagaries of chance could always throw that off.

But the key is that you then compare the phylogeny generated from analysing this stretch of DNA, to a completely independent stretch elsewhere. And what we've found is that they are almost identical. The vitamin C gene is just one example, and the sequence I posted above is another. It's pretty hard to argue against that.

Common design does not explain nested hierarchical relationships, unless you hypothesize that the designer did his design work by making modifications to a prototype, keeping that, using it as the next prototype, making successive modifications, etc.

At that point your hypothesis is indistinguishable from common descent, except for the intervention of the designer at every step. Is that your hypothesis?

And lastly, I've been following the linguistic argument, and I've noticed that you haven't given any linguistic evidence for your position. Your 2 pieces of evidence are historical and anecdotal. Those aren't very compelling.

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Posted: May 22 2006,10:45

Jstockwell, you utterly failed to prove that the evidence is not a case of several million complete coincidences, which all originated in several miricles. So, AFDave wins. ;-)

Russell

Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

Posted: May 22 2006,10:46

Perhaps this explains the afdave phenomenon:

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"If I have brought any message today, it is this: Have the courage to have your wisdom regarded as stupidity. Be fools for Christ. And have the courage to suffer the contempt of the sophisticated world."

Antonin Scalia

Based, I guess, on this:

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Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

(1 Corinthians 3:18-19 KJV)

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

normdoering

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Joined: July 2005

Posted: May 22 2006,10:57

Quote (afdave @ May 22 2006,14:58)

My contention is that if apes and humans have a common ancestor, there should be lots of 'beetle brow civilizations' all over the earth with half ape-men who grunt a lot and have a simple language and are at some stage between chimps and humans. These 'people' should be living today if evolution were true.

No they shouldn't. They lived in the same niche that modern humans started in. We wiped them out as we expanded even if we just competed for resources and didn't directly war with them.

http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/weid.html
"Sinanthropus pekinensis" or "Peking Man", based on the finds from Zhoukoudian, China.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/weid2.htm
Reconstruction notes

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Posted: May 22 2006,13:00

Gawp writes:

Quote

I am not a crank.

that sounds vaguely familiar somehow...

"I am not a crook."

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Posted: May 22 2006,13:07

Dave-

Quote

Uh ... no, it doesn't puzzle me. I did enough reading about the mindset of evolutionists before coming here that I was well prepared for what I would encounter.

here's a useful excercise for you. Can you provide us with the references you used to prepare yourself for "the mindset of evolutionists" before you came here?

I'm genuinely curious as to what you used to innoculate yourself against plain evidence and logic.

You could say it would help defer all the time you've wasted here on this site if you could provide that list for us.

I wonder if alchoholics used to have source material to justify their disease as well.

You need an intervention, Dave, but it simply can't be done in an online forum.

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Posted: May 22 2006,13:12

Quote

This, again, looks to me like classic projection. Defeated six ways to Sunday, afdave will be damned (perhaps literally) if he's going to let down Team Jesus by admitting it!

actually, that's a much better description of the other psychological defense mechanism employed frequently by creobots.

Denial.

same underlying pathology you are pointing to though.

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Posted: May 22 2006,13:16

Dave's Denial:

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Oh really? �How do you explain my very forthright and honest concession that I was wrong about the AIG-chimp-chromosome thing?

you did, and then essentially retracted it. �Or did you forget?

talk to AIG yet about how they lied to you?

Quote

�
All by itself, a broken GULO gene does not prove much of anything -- but it is one line of evidence.

Thank you, Norm. �Would you please explain this to your friends and to Dr. Max? �They don't seem to get this simple point.

more denial. �Your mind refused to actually see the point that was made in the original post, and instead selectively only saw "broken gulo gene does not prove" .

Can you actually even type what was said in the original post, or do you physically find it difficult to move your fingers to the proper keys on the keyboard? �It's beyond me asking if you even understand the point that was actually made in the post. �It is rampantly clear that not only do you not, you are mentally incapable of doing so.

and this, specifically argued ad naseum by the rest of us, simply to show HOW much you utilize denial in your arguments, is the topper:

Quote

No. I won the Portuguese thing thanks to Rilke's Wikipedia article, my Medieval Encyclopedia and your own admission.

I really can't think of a better example to try to get you to recognize how badly your defense mechanisms have interfered with your perceptions of reality.

Did you go through some serious PTSD during your military career? I'm betting you won't admit it, but your particular level of dissonance suggests severe trauma during at least one point in your history.

what could it hurt to see a psychologist and get an independent determination, Dave? IIRC, the military even has financial support for that very thing, so you wouldn't even be out any bucks.

really, give it a shot. You might learn something more there than you ever could, or are currently capable of, here.

jeannot

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Posted: May 22 2006,13:17

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ May 22 2006,15:08)

Gene-Oh writes:

�

Quote

Come on Paley, tell us what you think. Did some primate eat a guinea pig and transfered the broken GULO to its progeny, or the contrary?

No Pepe, I do not believe this. You fail to understand my ground-breaking theory. I am not a crank. I do not believe organisms can pass on character traits to their progeny via food. I only maintain food confounds genetic testing results. Since both humans and apes--and guines pigs too--eat bananas, their alleged "similarities" are based on this. The anthropologist Jonathan Marks in this seminal paper* describes the great genetic similarities between humans and bananas. I wonder where this comes from? Other Creationists have noticed this too. My theory becomes very plausible once the morally and intellectually corrosive dogma is Darwinism is discarded!

Are you serious, Ghost?

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Posted: May 22 2006,13:28

Quote

Are you serious, Ghost?

sorry, but that's a dumb question.

does it even matter?

He will of course, say he is, but that means nothing.

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Posted: May 22 2006,13:35

russel:

from the article on Scabia you referenced:

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Recently Justice Antonin Scalia, running neck and neck with fellow justice Clarence Thomas to become chief justice...

you just ruined my dinner.

Scalia and Thomas are the two top contenders? that's like saying Beavis and Butthead are competing for a Nobel Prize.

*sigh*

I've gotta get my shit together faster and get outta here.

Arden Chatfield

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Posted: May 22 2006,14:22

Quote (jeannot @ May 22 2006,18:17)

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ May 22 2006,15:08)

Gene-Oh writes:

�

Quote

Come on Paley, tell us what you think. Did some primate eat a guinea pig and transfered the broken GULO to its progeny, or the contrary?

No Pepe, I do not believe this. You fail to understand my ground-breaking theory. I am not a crank. I do not believe organisms can pass on character traits to their progeny via food. I only maintain food confounds genetic testing results. Since both humans and apes--and guines pigs too--eat bananas, their alleged "similarities" are based on this. The anthropologist Jonathan Marks in this seminal paper* describes the great genetic similarities between humans and bananas. I wonder where this comes from? Other Creationists have noticed this too. My theory becomes very plausible once the morally and intellectually corrosive dogma is Darwinism is discarded!

Are you serious, Ghost?

Something seems to have happened to Paley over the weekend. He seems to have lost his marbles in a big way, plus he seems angrier than ever.

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Posted: May 22 2006,14:58

naw, he just finally realized that compared to AFDave, he's the library of congress, and actually capable of providing rational argument (at least on rare occasions), so he better get started spewing his drivel out there.

and it's true, compared to the stuff that poor Dave spouts forth, his posts are sheer genius.

doesn't really make them cogent or supported, but hey, everything is relative to some extent.

That's right Dave, GoP is using you to further his own agenda.

How does that make you feel, Dave?

Occam's Aftershave

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Posted: May 22 2006,16:30

Well, I go away for a long weekend and what do I find?

Missionary AFDave still typing lies as fast as his little fingers can pick-and-peck.

The rest of you guys still kicking the living crap out of AFDavey's posterior.

Arrogant Fundy Dave still being too stupid to realize he's getting the living sh*t kicked out of him.

Hey AFDave, I noticed that you avoided my questions about scientific peer-review for the fifth time. �That means you lost big time on that one. �How does it feel to be such a loser? �When you "flew" the T-38, were you sitting in the back seat or the front?

My $0.02 on Dave's mental state: �AFDave is not an idiot in the classical sense, but he does suffer from "military pilot's disease" - terminal arrogance and the most unwarranted belief that if he is competent in one area, then that makes him an expert in all areas. �I've spent my whole career in military aerospace and unfortunately have seen too many "AFDaves". �Usually they're the ones who end up crashing multimillion-dollar aircraft because they are too f*cking arrogant to ever admit they can be wrong, ever.

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"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
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"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

Rilke's Granddaughter

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Posted: May 22 2006,17:05

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ May 22 2006,21:30)

Well, I go away for a long weekend and what do I find?

Missionary AFDave still typing lies as fast as his little fingers can pick-and-peck.

The rest of you guys still kicking the living crap out of AFDavey's posterior.

Arrogant Fundy Dave still being too stupid to realize he's getting the living sh*t kicked out of him.

Hey AFDave, I noticed that you avoided my questions about scientific peer-review for the fifth time. That means you lost big time on that one. How does it feel to be such a loser? When you "flew" the T-38, were you sitting in the back seat or the front?

My $0.02 on Dave's mental state: AFDave is not an idiot in the classical sense, but he does suffer from "military pilot's disease" - terminal arrogance and the most unwarranted belief that if he is competent in one area, then that makes him an expert in all areas. I've spent my whole career in military aerospace and unfortunately have seen too many "AFDaves". Usually they're the ones who end up crashing multimillion-dollar aircraft because they are too f*cking arrogant to ever admit they can be wrong, ever.

Given his other claims and his somewhat tenuous grasp of reality, I don't think we're dealing with an actual ex-pilot. Second Lieutenant, perhaps, but that's about as high as his intelligence would seem to go.

Occam's Aftershave

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Posted: May 22 2006,17:44

Quote

Given his other claims and his somewhat tenuous grasp of reality, I don't think we're dealing with an actual ex-pilot. �Second Lieutenant, perhaps, but that's about as high as his intelligence would seem to go. �

My guess is he made it through UPT (undergraduate pilot training), then as far as flying T-38s (an advanced supersonic jet trainer for potential fighter/bomber pilots) as a student pilot. �I also guess he washed out at that stage; probably his arrogance caused him to make too many unacceptable errors. �That's why he ended up flying helos (according to his blog at least).

My limited knowledge of such things comes from having an ex-GF (many years ago) whose brother was a military pilot. �He followed the same career track but passed T-38 training, and was invited back to become a T-38 IP (Instructor Pilot) because at the time there were too few fighter slots available. �Tom (the brother) told many comical stories about the screw-ups of his students, and how they'd always end up whining "...but sirrrr...."

�Eventually he ended up flying KC-10 tankers, the Mil version of the DC-10.

Edited to add: This is not meant to belittle what AFDave did achieve. �Just making it through UPT to get a ride in a T-38 is a major accomplishment, so props to him for that. �It's a pity that his arrogant and condescending attitude will keep him such a total dumbsh*t on some fascinating and amazing avenues of scientific knowledge.

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"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

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Posted: May 22 2006,17:57

maybe Davey kept correcting his instructor with the bible, and they bounced him.

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Posted: May 22 2006,18:38

what's the likelihood that we would get a straight answer out of "honest Dave" if we actually asked him?

not bloody likely given his reponses so far, but we could always give it a shot and see what happens.

Care to fill us in, Dave?

What was your actual flight training; did you actually fly missions or just training?

What made you leave the military?

You could actually provide something worth listening to here, if you wanted.

Eldin

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Posted: May 22 2006,18:44

Just a minor note on linguistic discussion, like the abiogenesis theory that predates evolution, genesis of language is illdefined. We are not sure what facilitated the first spoken language and whether it was a gradual or sudden process. As most of you probably know, small children have a tendency to grammatise basically everything they hear, which gives rise to creole languages. Given that fact it is not implausible that a workable language of a few thousand words and sophisticated grammar appeared within 3 generations from earlier 'monkey' calls.

Always remember that learning language as a child is not like studying algebra in school. Learning to speak is like learning to walk and has to be actively discouraged for it not develop. Indeed, walking upright, fine manual motor functions and speaking are probably related, because all of these functions share a lot of the same brainspace.

Bah, I should not post when I haven't slept for 2 1/2 days.

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