RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (622) < ... 329 330 331 332 333 [334] 335 336 337 338 339 ... >   
  Topic: A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin, As big as the poop that does not look< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2014,07:14   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Mar. 31 2014,17:39)
And by the way: Such networks have been evidenced in insects and other animals, and I am NOT going to waste my time defending myself against the use of the word "hippocampus" when it's not even mentioned anywhere in the online code anymore because of the possibility of multiple names for roughly the same thing.

Arguments that are now in this thread are as ridiculous as saying "Fish have no arms or legs therefore evolution is impossible."

In other words, just like Humpty Dumpty, words mean exactly what you want them to mean, regardless of what other people mean by them.
Whatever is convenient to supporting your delusion du jour, whatever makes your nonsense fractionally more correct or less ridiculous, that must be what you 'really meant', regardless of what you said.
There's a special place in psych wards for people with that sort of delusional behavior.
Get thee hence, for your own sake and the sake of those (there must be some, I believe a spouse has been mentioned) who still care for you.

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2014,12:39   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Mar. 31 2014,21:20)
Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Mar. 31 2014,19:47)
 
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Mar. 31 2014,19:31)
   
Quote (N.Wells @ Mar. 31 2014,19:21)
     
Quote
The model is for as simply as possible demonstrating the very basics of the "underlying process" of a system that (last I read) has indeed also been evidenced in insects.


     
Quote
Such networks have been evidenced in insects and other animals, and I am NOT going to waste my time defending myself against the use of the word "hippocampus" when it's not even mentioned anywhere in the online code anymore because of the possibility of multiple names for roughly the same thing.


Okay, cite some evidence that insects have a hippocampus.

Show me where I argued that "insects have a hippocampus".

Specifically, what organism do you think you're modeling?

Hopefully it's representative of all animals that still have an intact brain. How many exceptions there may be is currently impossible to determine. It might take at least a couple more decades to know either way. Regardless of how that turns out the "Grid Cell Network" model is fine the way it is, for AI.

From Planet Source Code:
Quote
This is the third in a series of Intelligence Design Lab cognitive models for experimenting with the basics of intelligence, and for programming towards a computer model to produce the phenomenon of intelligent cause. This update adds sensilla to mouth and antennae for touch, taste and smell.

Does "all animals that still have an intact brain" include mammals with antennae and sensilla?

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2014,13:02   

Gary can't tell the difference between brain, brain subsystems/parts, sensoria, sentience, sapience, or "intelligence".  After all, according to Gary, molecules are 'intelligent' despite lacking brains, sensoria, or 2 of his 4 required behaviors.
He relies on the Humpty Dumpty tactic of 'words mean precisely what I choose for them to mean, no more and no less'.  Whatever it takes to interpret his logorrhea in the best light.

There's a Psychology PhD thesis or two in Gary, but they would have to be extracted by an external agent -- one in actual possession of intelligence.  And the ability to get into college and then grad school.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2014,14:33   

Quote (Jim_Wynne @ April 01 2014,12:39)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Mar. 31 2014,21:20)
 
Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Mar. 31 2014,19:47)
   
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Mar. 31 2014,19:31)
   
Quote (N.Wells @ Mar. 31 2014,19:21)
     
Quote
The model is for as simply as possible demonstrating the very basics of the "underlying process" of a system that (last I read) has indeed also been evidenced in insects.


       
Quote
Such networks have been evidenced in insects and other animals, and I am NOT going to waste my time defending myself against the use of the word "hippocampus" when it's not even mentioned anywhere in the online code anymore because of the possibility of multiple names for roughly the same thing.


Okay, cite some evidence that insects have a hippocampus.

Show me where I argued that "insects have a hippocampus".

Specifically, what organism do you think you're modeling?

Hopefully it's representative of all animals that still have an intact brain. How many exceptions there may be is currently impossible to determine. It might take at least a couple more decades to know either way. Regardless of how that turns out the "Grid Cell Network" model is fine the way it is, for AI.

From Planet Source Code:
 
Quote
This is the third in a series of Intelligence Design Lab cognitive models for experimenting with the basics of intelligence, and for programming towards a computer model to produce the phenomenon of intelligent cause. This update adds sensilla to mouth and antennae for touch, taste and smell.

Does "all animals that still have an intact brain" include mammals with antennae and sensilla?

That's a good question I need to answer, so you'll know too.

A rat has whiskers instead of antennae that likewise senses forward /reverse motion through its environment by deflecting back and forth. For a rat whiskers work in tunnels and spaces it prefers, and smell through nose, sensitive to what's in that area around it.  

I imagine the antenna design can be easily enough changed to look like whiskers to you. Give it a try. Rats can have big buggy looking eyes anyway. I would like to see the rat you created.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2014,14:36   

I mentioned this elsewhere but had this forum in mind while writing:

I have to add that the model has educational value in math as an interesting network for wave propagation, and in AI as a minimal code navigation system for a game engine or robot. But I'm not yet sure how far into biology it goes. There is no doubt that it shows the general idea of what grid, border and place cells add to any brain. It's just that there are many ways to accomplish the same thing in the brains of tiny insects, echolocation bats, dolphins, as well as ours that use theta wave modulation with “modules” with many grids in each. Things get complicated, real fast, but this website helps show what else there is to work on besides the most minimal code possible that I now have to work from:

http://blog.brainfacts.org/2013.......CPk7v0t

In another thread I made sure to keep sciences well separated by describing as Edvard Moser did by saying that the “model is interesting from an AI perspective” then mention AI is useful and everything but can become like putting Artificial Flowers under a microscope then expecting to becoming famous for discovering that plants are made of plastic. It can seem like a harsh thing to say (especially in this AI forum) even though not requiring neurological detail is what makes AI such a large and useful part of science. I don't mind being there, with this model.

The models I program are designed to be high school AI simple, fast enough to not require a supercomputer to achieve real time+ speeds, and behave like a well trained rat in the highly demanding hidden moving shock zone arena test. I already have that running with 3D grid networks. It's getting into “mad scientist” territory AI has never been before, without any real rats being harmed in any of our experiments. The way it turned out, the behavior of the virtual critter is that it finds it scary fun like a fun-house with noisy air blast for stepping in the wrong place it learn to avoid but they are not going to let them stop chasing the food pellets in a circle going in the opposite direction of the invisible shock zone, right into its center. It's diabolical sounding, but best way to see how well it learns to get out of the way then go around the zone to the back until its safe to get the food. Where real rats were used in a university to document more detail of avoidance behavior younger of pampered rats with no electrodes in their head or anything tunnel into where they go to have inside and must want to be there, for the junk-food like treats instead of comforts of home a rat living in the wild on scare garbage can only dream of. The Grid Cell Network and the IDLab models are developing what comes after the animal studies are over and serious modeling already began on what qualifies as real intelligence, not artificial, on just a PC.

The model is for going into new territory towards where AI has never been before, without having to leave all the scientists still in K-12 and those learning in this forum behind in the process. It is most important a community like at Planet Source Code finds it all awesome, incredible, dream fulfilling, or the whole science mission would have failed right there. I'm regularly wishing I could easily put all this into a routine science journal research paper along with the theory of you know what that's on the science horizon too but then it becomes book length two year project trying to figure out where to even begin, that would somewhat stop progress on the models needed for us to pioneer new scientific frontiers too.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2014,15:25   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 01 2014,15:36)
I mentioned this elsewhere but had this forum in mind while writing:

I have to add that the model has educational value in math as an interesting network for wave propagation, and in AI as a minimal code navigation system for a game engine or robot. But I'm not yet sure how far into biology it goes.

Well, that's a distinct improvement from what you've been shoveling around here!  Kudos for finally achieving some level of contact with the real world.
   
Quote
There is no doubt that it shows the general idea of what grid, border and place cells add to any brain.  

And then you blow it, with your standard lack of ability to communicate clearly.  By 'cells', do you mean biological cells or grid cells as used in your maps?  One is insane, the other is trivial to the point of inanity.
   
Quote
It's just that there are many ways to accomplish the same thing in the brains of tiny insects, echolocation bats, dolphins, as well as ours  

Quite true.  There are also many ways to accomplish the same thing in software.  Neither has any strong implications for the other --  both are systems that display multiple realizability.  It is a mistake to treat this situation as if it were unique to biological creatures.
   
Quote
that use theta wave modulation with “modules” with many grids in each.

And now we're back in your usual territory.
Asserting facts without evidence, needs citation, etc.  Who says that brains use theta wave modulations?  What about the creatures without brains of the typical human kind?  Where is there evidence that 'grids' exist in the brain or as part of the perceptual milieu?  You're fond of asserting this, but you've been refuted on it in references previously given.  And where's the evidence of grids in brain structure?  Are 'theta wave modulations' implementation details of a feature that could have been implemented in some other way?  Then why reference them, especially without solid, referenced, evidence that they are in fact the mechanism used?  Likewise, are grids an artifact of your modeling approach that could have been implement in some other way or is there something special or inherent about grids as such?
 
Quote
Things get complicated, real fast,  

Nice of you to acknowledge that.  Does this mean you are growing aware that your ~40 page pdf "theory" is woefully inadequate to the complexities involved in intelligence, no matter how the term is defined?
 
Quote
...
In another thread I made sure to keep sciences well separated by describing as Edvard Moser did by saying that the “model is interesting from an AI perspective” then mention AI is useful and everything but can become like putting Artificial Flowers under a microscope then expecting to becoming famous for discovering that plants are made of plastic.

Another one of the famous GaGa sentences from hell.  This is incoherent at best.  Amongst the notions being tossed around is the idea that it is a mistake to put plastic flowers under a microscope and then expect to become famous for discovering that flowers are plastic.
Well, indeed.  And yet this is just what you've been doing for 5+ years now.  
Your model is not particularly interesting from an AI perspective.  Hex grids are well known to Game Theory and have been around for decades.  Movement rules on hex grids are likewise old hat.  There's precious little new in what you're doing.  And over all lies the miasma of your attempts to show that, in effect, all flowers are made of plastic.  This is precisely what you are doing when you tout your software 'model' and its runs as evidence of how biological nature functions.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2014,15:48   

Quote (NoName @ April 01 2014,07:10)
   
Quote
I brought to life while Sal (I presume due to perfectly fitting the counterintuitive tactics they described but could also be William or another from the big-tent) clowns around in a way that boosted your confidence levels to make y'all look like even bigger fools.

Standard GaGa nonsense.  Tortured prose, disconnected from reality, self-aggrandizing while trumpeting his martyr's wounds.

Like a true troll would say along a hero's journey through science where they get revenge for my long ago having teased them from the KCFS forum. If so then I'm sorry. Really.

Here's a peace offering to go with happy/sad clowning around you for some weird reason find necessary in this ring of the ID big-tent:

Sheryl Crow - If It Makes You Happy

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2014,15:55   

What do you mean by "minimal code"?  It seems unlikely that Visual Basic provides minimal anything.  It seems that Matlab or r or something else that handles matrix math simply and has lots of higher-level commands would likely provide a shorter program and faster runs.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2014,15:57   

Talk to your physician, Gary, your meds need readjusting.
Also discuss with your pharmacist what OTC drugs you are taking and how they might interact with your prescription drugs.  St. John's Wort, for instance, plays bloody hell with various drugs, from benzodiazepines to antipsychotics.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2014,16:16   

Quote (NoName @ April 01 2014,15:57)
Talk to your physician, Gary, your meds need readjusting.
Also discuss with your pharmacist what OTC drugs you are taking and how they might interact with your prescription drugs.  St. John's Wort, for instance, plays bloody hell with various drugs, from benzodiazepines to antipsychotics.

I'm set thanks:

Rush - Tom Sawyer - 1:24

But do have one on me!

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,02:10   

Quote (N.Wells @ April 01 2014,15:55)
What do you mean by "minimal code"?  It seems unlikely that Visual Basic provides minimal anything.  It seems that Matlab or r or something else that handles matrix math simply and has lots of higher-level commands would likely provide a shorter program and faster runs.

Minimal code programs perform some function in as few code lines as possible. Occam's razor.

What is happening in biology favors some crazy simple high school level explanation. For example where cell membranes come from is simple self-assembly as in bubble formation. Not something complicated like RNA and protein molecules one by one gluing phospholipids together.

The Grid Cell Network model helps show what to look for in single celled animals and other systems with molecular networks, in case cells or something else have them.

The search is not limited to mammals, it's for taking the search to microbiology. Adds something that might help explain what they already study that they only need to know about, not perform a complex experiment for. Maybe just see what happens after adding voltage sensitive indicators then slowing down with cold or something where necessary to slow down propagating waves to see them. The model helps conceptualize what happens in a hexagonal network of anything that has the 63-N equation, where N is the 6 bits of active Neighbors coming In, that has to go Out the other way to inactive neighbors behind the wave.

The more routine things that microbiology and other other sciences write papers on can become a little more exciting, by looking for interesting non-neural grid networks to be the first to discover. They also don't need to exactly know how complicated theta wave animal brain grid modules work, just a minimal code model that reduces the process down to its very basics.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,07:16   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 02 2014,02:10)
The search is not limited to mammals, it's for taking the search to microbiology. Adds something that might help explain what they already study that they only need to know about, not perform a complex experiment for.The more routine things that microbiology and other other sciences write papers on can become a little more exciting, by looking for interesting non-neural grid networks to be the first to discover. They also don't need to exactly know how complicated theta wave animal brain grid modules work, just a minimal code model that reduces the process down to its very basics.

Aside from your failure to address N. Wells' observations about your "minimal code" most probably not being minimal (probably even in terms of VB code), you seem to be laboring under a persistent delusion that unsupported assertions are a reasonable substitute for experiments and data.

You seem to be suggesting that a microbiologist doing research might not need a "complex experiment" when all she has to do is watch your program run to understand an observed phenomenon.  The problem is that your program has no basis in verified facts.  It's utterly useless in explaining anything beyond your own misbegotten conceptions.

Edit: Moar better typing

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,07:53   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 01 2014,17:16)
Quote (NoName @ April 01 2014,15:57)
Talk to your physician, Gary, your meds need readjusting.
Also discuss with your pharmacist what OTC drugs you are taking and how they might interact with your prescription drugs.  St. John's Wort, for instance, plays bloody hell with various drugs, from benzodiazepines to antipsychotics.

I'm set thanks:

Rush - Tom Sawyer - 1:24

But do have one on me!

I think you're overdoing the recreational drugs.
I was speaking of pharmaceuticals of which you seem to be seriously in need.
But if you want to overindulge, have at it.
I'm set with the real world.  It's a nice place, you should visit some time.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,08:15   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 02 2014,03:10)
 
Quote (N.Wells @ April 01 2014,15:55)
What do you mean by "minimal code"?  It seems unlikely that Visual Basic provides minimal anything.  It seems that Matlab or r or something else that handles matrix math simply and has lots of higher-level commands would likely provide a shorter program and faster runs.

Minimal code programs perform some function in as few code lines as possible. Occam's razor.

So you're as uninformed, and sloppy, about programming as you are everything else.
Color us entirely unsurprised.
You do realize that lines of code as any sort of metric has been seen as ludicrous for years now?  That due to the multiple realizability of software, the only possible meaningful 'minimal lines of code' is the executable code produced by the compiler?  And that there are other minima that might be more important to achieve than mere code bulk?
Of course you don't.  You're an idiot.
 
Quote
What is happening in biology favors some crazy simple high school level explanation.

Right.  X-ray diffraction crystallography of DNA is simple and high school level.  PCR analysis of genomes is high school level, and simple.  Cellular assay for antibody sensitivity or chemical reactivity are trivial to do in a high school lab.  Long term studies of the effectiveness of diagnostic and/or treatment modes for various diseases are perfectly do-able in high school, right?  And the sort of intensive studies required by the FDA for approval of medicines or medical devices, sure, easily done in high school.  
Gods, Gary, you can't even rise to the level of idiot with this sort of garbage.
 
Quote
For example where cell membranes come from is simple self-assembly as in bubble formation. Not something complicated like RNA and protein molecules one by one gluing phospholipids together.

The difference between "self assembly" and "RNA and protein molecules … gluing phospholipids together" is what, exactly?
Seriously, sweeping hard problems in the real world under the rug of your incompetent prose is the act of a poseur.  So of course it's top of the list of your usual ploys.
 
Quote
The Grid Cell Network model helps show what to look for in single celled animals and other systems with molecular networks, in case cells or something else have them.

No it doesn't.  It isn't based in or on the reality of single celled animals.  Just for instance, within the last two days you've been touting your software for its relevance to hippocampus research and how you would only discuss with those engaged in researching hippocampal systems.
Where's the hippocampus in a single-celled creature, Gary?  Where are the antennae and sensilla in single-celled creatures?  Yesterday afternoon they were all-important, yesterday evening/night, you've discarded them like used undergarments.
What's a 'molecular network' such that some cells might or might not have one?  Your proliferation of high-sounding [pun fully intended] terminology is confusing you more than it is your readers.

 
Quote
The search is not limited to mammals, it's for taking the search to microbiology. Adds something that might help explain what they already study that they only need to know about, not perform a complex experiment for. Maybe just see what happens after adding voltage sensitive indicators then slowing down with cold or something where necessary to slow down propagating waves to see them. The model helps conceptualize what happens in a hexagonal network of anything that has the 63-N equation, where N is the 6 bits of active Neighbors coming In, that has to go Out the other way to inactive neighbors behind the wave.

So you are proposing intensive study of your software rather than the real world.  It's very hard to see how that could be of value in any 'search' when your software is the productive of your more than faintly deranged imagination.  The hexagonal grid network is an artifact of your modeling approach, not a foundation fact of reality expressed in living organisms.

Quote
The more routine things that microbiology and other other sciences write papers on can become a little more exciting, by looking for interesting non-neural grid networks to be the first to discover. They also don't need to exactly know how complicated theta wave animal brain grid modules work, just a minimal code model that reduces the process down to its very basics.

But 'minimal code' is not a useful criterion for judging the adequacy of models.  Your model, judged on the merits, is entirely irrelevant to biology.  You've provided all the reasons this is so on this page -- no hippocampus, no antenna and sensillia, no understanding or representation of the construction/assembly of biological structure, no basic facts of biology exist anywhere in your model.  Yet you insist that they are the criteria by which your model and results can be judged, and some are so crucial that you'll only discuss your software with those researching them.  A claim made in haste that you have already discarded.
Humpty Dumpty does not make a good model for language use, Gary.  You don't get to constantly redefine terms to mean what you currently need them to mean, then reinterpret them every time they come up.  You don't get to get away with changing your criteria and qualifications for determining what is and is not in scope, or who is and is not in the pool of those with whom you will deign to engage.
You're a pathetic poser and an incompetent thinker.  Review your last 10 posts and see if you wouldn't agree were they sourced from anyone but yourself.
We've all seen it in action, and it's pretty grim.

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,11:27   

Quote
What is happening in biology favors some crazy simple high school level explanation. For example where cell membranes come from is simple self-assembly as in bubble formation. Not something complicated like RNA and protein molecules one by one gluing phospholipids together.


Except that RNA and protein molecules have been observed making cell membranes, and bubble formation has not.  Science insists on going by what has been observed - just in case weren't aware of that intricacy yet.  :)  :)  :)

Whatta hoot!

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,16:54   

Quote
Whatever is convenient to supporting your delusion du jour, whatever makes your nonsense fractionally more correct or less ridiculous, that must be what you 'really meant', regardless of what you said.


Quote
You don't get to constantly redefine terms to mean what you currently need them to mean, then reinterpret them every time they come up.


Quote
The problem is that your program has no basis in verified facts.  It's utterly useless in explaining anything beyond your own misbegotten conceptions.


Quote
Seriously, sweeping hard problems in the real world under the rug of your incompetent prose is the act of a poseur.


All absolutely spot-on observations that deserve repeating for emphasis.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,17:29   

Quote (Jim_Wynne @ April 02 2014,07:16)
 
Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 02 2014,02:10)
The search is not limited to mammals, it's for taking the search to microbiology. Adds something that might help explain what they already study that they only need to know about, not perform a complex experiment for.The more routine things that microbiology and other other sciences write papers on can become a little more exciting, by looking for interesting non-neural grid networks to be the first to discover. They also don't need to exactly know how complicated theta wave animal brain grid modules work, just a minimal code model that reduces the process down to its very basics.

Aside from your failure to address N. Wells' observations about your "minimal code" most probably not being minimal (probably even in terms of VB code), you seem to be laboring under a persistent delusion that unsupported assertions are a reasonable substitute for experiments and data.

You seem to be suggesting that a microbiologist doing research might not need a "complex experiment" when all she has to do is watch your program run to understand an observed phenomenon.  The problem is that your program has no basis in verified facts.  It's utterly useless in explaining anything beyond your own misbegotten conceptions.

Edit: Moar better typing

In another forum I was answering grant application type questions. N.Wells made me realize what I needed to add, so I kept going with the thought then when recklessly typing while half-asleep I quickly posted it before passing-out from exhaustion, while at the keyboard.

It should go without saying that other languages could be used. How many lines it takes is language dependent. Visual Basic uses If-Then statements and equations written out like learned in school, makes a nice illustration, and is good for rapid development of an idea.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,18:12   

In regards to who the burden of proof has long been on for the Theory of Intelligent Design this sentence settles that issue by it clearly now being their responsibility to show evidence that this "challenge for all" is unscientific:

Quote
The computer model also provides a precise, testable and scientifically useful operational definition for "intelligent cause" where each of the three emergent levels can be individually modeled, with a model predicted to be possible that generates an intelligent causation event, now goal of further research and challenge for all.

http://www.planetsourcecode.com/vb....ngWId=1


Constant demands for evidence and claims of unsupported assertions is a way to ignore the real scientific issues that now exist. I and others owe them nothing, for finding this and other original scientific challenges so exciting. We don't need bullies doing all they can to stop the science fun, that leads to new models of interest to AI and more, that has already been accomplished.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1100
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,18:16   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 02 2014,18:12)
In regards to who the burden of proof has long been on for the Theory of Intelligent Design this sentence settles that issue by it clearly now being their responsibility to show evidence that this "challenge for all" is unscientific:

Quote
The computer model also provides a precise, testable and scientifically useful operational definition for "intelligent cause" where each of the three emergent levels can be individually modeled, with a model predicted to be possible that generates an intelligent causation event, now goal of further research and challenge for all.

http://www.planetsourcecode.com/vb....n....ngWId=1


Constant demands for evidence and claims of unsupported assertions is a way to ignore the real scientific issues that now exist. I and others owe them nothing, for finding this and other original scientific challenges so exciting. We don't need bullies doing all they can to stop the science fun, that leads to new models of interest to AI and more, that has already been accomplished.

But not everyone is as stupid as you are, Gary.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,19:46   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 02 2014,19:12)
In regards to who the burden of proof has long been on for the Theory of Intelligent Design this sentence settles that issue by it clearly now being their responsibility to show evidence that this "challenge for all" is unscientific:

Quote
The computer model also provides a precise, testable and scientifically useful operational definition for "intelligent cause" where each of the three emergent levels can be individually modeled, with a model predicted to be possible that generates an intelligent causation event, now goal of further research and challenge for all.

http://www.planetsourcecode.com/vb....n....ngWId=1


Constant demands for evidence and claims of unsupported assertions is a way to ignore the real scientific issues that now exist. I and others owe them nothing, for finding this and other original scientific challenges so exciting. We don't need bullies doing all they can to stop the science fun, that leads to new models of interest to AI and more, that has already been accomplished.

Bullshit.
Your software neither models the "three emergent levels" referred to in your "theory" nor provides any guides for how the "three emergent levels" could be modeled.  There are no emergent properties in your software.
Your software has literally nothing to do with your "theory", just as neither your software nor your "theory" has anything to do with the real world of real biological entities.

Not least, your claim can be falsified by showing that it cannot produce a theory, which is one of the marks of human-level intelligence.  A mark you seem to lack, but that your software and "theory" both demonstrably lack.
So, insofar as you have a 'testable operational definition', which isn't very far at all, it has been tested and found to be false.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,20:44   

Quote
The computer model also provides a precise, testable and scientifically useful operational definition for "intelligent cause"

Show that it provides a meaningful definition and that the definition is precise, and that it is testable, and that it is useful.

 
Quote
where each of the three emergent levels can be individually modeled
Show how it models "each of the three emergent levels".

 
Quote
, with a model predicted to be possible that generates an intelligent causation event
Demonstrate that your model generates an "intelligent causation event".  (And what on earth do you mean by, "a model predicted to be possible"???)

 
Quote
, now goal of further research and challenge for all.
Not until you demonstrate that it merits anyone's attention.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2014,21:06   

It merits precisely the same attention one would give to any other pile of dog excrement -  pick it up in a plastic baggie and dispose of it in the trash.

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2014,06:54   

Quote
Constant demands for evidence and claims of unsupported assertions is a are ways to ignore the real scientific issues that now exist demonstrate that Gary has no evidence, makes unsupported assertions and avoids important questions.


FTFY

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2014,08:42   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 02 2014,19:12)
In regards to who the burden of proof has long been on for the Theory of Intelligent Design this sentence settles that issue by it clearly now being their responsibility to show evidence that this "challenge for all" is unscientific:

The burden of proof lies where it always does -- on the one making the positive claim.  That would be you.
Given your track record of errors, omissions, and fabrications, I think we would be justified in auto-rejecting anything you proposed.  The odds would certainly be with us.
       
Quote
The computer model

Hold it right there.  What computer model?  Your software is not a model because there is no thing in the real world that is being modeled.  You're making it up as you go along.  That you might occasionally get results that look like the results that would be gotten from a natural creature's behavior in the real world is a coincidence.
You have no model, for you are not modeling anything.
Once again, your misuse and abuse and general ignorance of language trips you up.  Much to your detriment.

     
Quote
also provides a precise, testable and scientifically useful operational definition for "intelligent cause" where each of the three emergent levels can be individually modeled, with a model predicted to be possible that generates an intelligent causation event, now goal of further research and challenge for all.

Already disposed of, see above.  None of us, nor, apparently, anyone in the world at large, accepts your pronouncement that you have a 'precise, testable and scientifically useful operational definition for "intelligent cause"'  There's not one person on earth, except possibly you, who accepts or believes this statement to be true.

The reaction of a bunch of programmers to the code is irrelevant to the questions of "Is it a model?", "What is being modeled?", "Does it contain a precise definition of 'intelligent cause'?", "Does it contain a testable definition of 'intelligent cause'?", "Does it contain anything scientifically useful with respect to the [undefined, vague, and equivocal] notion of 'intelligent cause'?", and "Does it contain an operational  definition of 'intelligent cause'?"
     
Quote
Constant demands for evidence and claims of unsupported assertions is a way to ignore the real scientific issues that now exist.

False.  In each part and in the entirety.
You imply by your phrasing that you have raised new issues, that these issues now exist because of you/your work/your software.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  You have yet to expose a single problematic not already known.
I hate to have to keep repeating this, but really, your self-aggrandizement has grown wildly out of control and needs to be challenged. You are not doing anything new.
Demands for evidence are routine for claims.  You are making extraordinary claims, and that calls for extraordinary evidence.  Yet you provide no evidence whatsoever and get snippy when anyone has the temerity to call you on it.  You cannot link to a single occurrence of you providing any evidence in support of your claims.
It is equally appropriate to call you on your false assertions.  For example, your misuse of the word 'learning' invalidates your claim to be doing Cognitive Science or working that arena.  Your misuse and complete misunderstanding of the word 'evolution' disqualifies you from being taken seriously when you pontificate on that subject.  Your constant mistakes about nature and living creatures (from cell formation to how a creature interacts with its perceived milieu) disqualify you from being taken seriously when you talk about biology.  That your software 'model' lacks any factual basis in biology is obvious to all, and this falsifies your claims that the 'model' can lead to any new knowledge about how living creatures actually do anything at all.  You can't even keep straight your story about the need for a hippocampus, or absence of said need, the requirement for antennae and sensillia or lack of said requirement, etc.  Your incoherent and clumsy prose, reliant on constant reinterpretation of key terms so as to reflect 'what you really meant' disqualifies you from being taken seriously as a writer.
     
Quote
I and others owe them nothing, for finding this and other original scientific challenges so exciting.

True but irrelevant.  You don't have to explain to anyone why you find anything exciting.  What you are, however, called upon to do, what you owe the world, is an explanation of why we should be excited about whatever bright shiny (and inevitably malformed) concept has caught your attention.
     
Quote
We don't need bullies doing all they can to stop the science fun, that leads to new models of interest to AI and more, that has already been accomplished.

No, we don't.  But you are not being bullied.  You are being called on, with increasing levels of frustration, to live up to the requirements attendant upon what you are claiming to be doing.
You owe us evidence.
You owe us correction of false assertions.
You owe us the courtesy of responding to the actual criticisms raised against your "theory" and your risible software rather than the constant barrage of self-important self-adopted martyrdom, the ongoing deflection and diversion maneuvers, the accusations of (non-existent) bullying.
If you actually had even the smallest quantum of what you claim, you would be fighting for the chance to present evidence, clean up your prose, improve and/or correct your abstractions, and respond to your critics.
That's what scientists do.  That's what educated lay people do.  That's not what you do.  You draw the conclusion.

It is amusing to see you act as if you are somehow raising new challenges for science to address.  To the best of my knowledge, you have yet to raise a single issue or problem that is not only already well known, but has been known for many decades.

Your software is an irrelevancy in this regard.  It raises no new problems, exposes no new issues, and is, as noted above, most emphatically not a model at all.
So, once again, epic fail, Gary.
Ha, ha, charade you are.

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2014,08:44   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 02 2014,18:12)
I and others owe them nothing, for finding this and other original scientific challenges so exciting.

Who are the "others," specifically?
What "other original scientific challenges," specifically?
Can you name one person who finds your "theory" exciting?

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2014,11:42   

FYI

Forgive my not having time to feed thine pee contest trolls but I'm right in the middle of the IDLab version of
Spock's Brain. I must get back to work on him. So many neurons to account for! Or sort of anyway.

I successfully transplanted the new Grid Network into the IDLab4 critter. It's Attract and Repel location behavior is now excellent. The tan color circle+dot (showing where it's internal world model location is at) heads straight for the attractor/feeder like it did in the demo program. In its internal world model is already able to get from place to place. But there is no motor controller coded into it yet, so it just slowly wanders like a zombie that loves bumping into walls.

This is where in the coding project there is no longer a center angle vector as before, which was a problem with some combinations that summed to zero degrees. There is now just its moving through the grid, where something like this (from an earlier link) is very needed:


http://blog.brainfacts.org/2013.......d_k7v0u

There is “distance”:

Distance = Sqr((X ^ 2) + (Y^ 2))

and a “direction” from Trigonometry function:

Direction = Atan2(Y/X)

The “2” indicates function code is included in Math routines to return full radian matching computer screen axis, angle 0 points right.

The illustration does not show all else the grid network could be doing besides providing distance and direction of its physical movements. But we don't have to worry about that, the computer model makes the rest of the controller transplant child's play, I think..

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2014,12:01   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 03 2014,11:42)
FYI

Forgive my not having time to feed thine pee contest trolls but I'm right in the middle of the IDLab version of
Spock's Brain. I must get back to work on him. So many neurons to account for! Or sort of anyway.

I successfully transplanted the new Grid Network into the IDLab4 critter. It's Attract and Repel location behavior is now excellent. The tan color circle+dot (showing where it's internal world model location is at) heads straight for the attractor/feeder like it did in the demo program. In its internal world model is already able to get from place to place. But there is no motor controller coded into it yet, so it just slowly wanders like a zombie that loves bumping into walls.

This is where in the coding project there is no longer a center angle vector as before, which was a problem with some combinations that summed to zero degrees. There is now just its moving through the grid, where something like this (from an earlier link) is very needed:


http://blog.brainfacts.org/2013.......d_k7v0u

There is “distance”:

Distance = Sqr((X ^ 2) + (Y^ 2))

and a “direction” from Trigonometry function:

Direction = Atan2(Y/X)

The “2” indicates function code is included in Math routines to return full radian matching computer screen axis, angle 0 points right.

The illustration does not show all else the grid network could be doing besides providing distance and direction of its physical movements. But we don't have to worry about that, the computer model makes the rest of the controller transplant child's play, I think..

The folly of you mapping two-dimensional space and completely ignoring the third dimension has already been pointed out, but you outdo yourself when you describe movement as heading "SW" (presumably for southwest).

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2014,12:29   

And still no explicit handling of goals, goal fulfillment, goal modification, spontaneous appearance of new goals based on current internal and external conditions.  No accounting for figure/ground/horizon relationships in the perceptual field (which alone is enough to invalidate the work for any biological purpose).  No changes in the milieu.  No things in the environment that are hidden by obstructions from one perspective while visible from another.  No other motile elements.  Nothing able to 'sneak up on' the mover.  No accounting for the vast unnecessary overhead of maintaining 'all possible paths' in memory at once (which is also counter to the findings of biology and psychology).
No fact-basing at all, as per your usual.
No emergence, no "three layers" or "three levels", no relationship whatsoever to your vaunted 'theory'.
You've taken deflection/distraction techniques to a new high point, Gary.  Pity it's all been a complete waste of cpu cycles.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2014,12:40   

Quote (Jim_Wynne @ April 03 2014,12:01)
 
Quote (GaryGaulin @ April 03 2014,11:42)
FYI

Forgive my not having time to feed thine pee contest trolls but I'm right in the middle of the IDLab version of
Spock's Brain. I must get back to work on him. So many neurons to account for! Or sort of anyway.

I successfully transplanted the new Grid Network into the IDLab4 critter. It's Attract and Repel location behavior is now excellent. The tan color circle+dot (showing where it's internal world model location is at) heads straight for the attractor/feeder like it did in the demo program. In its internal world model is already able to get from place to place. But there is no motor controller coded into it yet, so it just slowly wanders like a zombie that loves bumping into walls.

This is where in the coding project there is no longer a center angle vector as before, which was a problem with some combinations that summed to zero degrees. There is now just its moving through the grid, where something like this (from an earlier link) is very needed:


http://blog.brainfacts.org/2013.......d_k7v0u

There is “distance”:

Distance = Sqr((X ^ 2) + (Y^ 2))

and a “direction” from Trigonometry function:

Direction = Atan2(Y/X)

The “2” indicates function code is included in Math routines to return full radian matching computer screen axis, angle 0 points right.

The illustration does not show all else the grid network could be doing besides providing distance and direction of its physical movements. But we don't have to worry about that, the computer model makes the rest of the controller transplant child's play, I think..

The folly of you mapping two-dimensional space and completely ignoring the third dimension has already been pointed out, but you outdo yourself when you describe movement as heading "SW" (presumably for southwest).

What makes you so sure that I was the one who drew the illustration?

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2014,12:41   

Quote
Forgive my not having time to feed thine pee contest trolls but I'm right in the middle of the IDLab version of
Spock's Brain. I must get back to work on him. So many neurons to account for! Or sort of anyway.



It's so easy, a child could do it!  No wonder you find it amusing, Goo Goo. . . . . .

Keep in mind, we're scientists, not poor country doctors. . . . . .

Whatta hoot!  (and a charade)   :)  :)  :)

  
  18634 replies since Oct. 31 2012,02:32 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (622) < ... 329 330 331 332 333 [334] 335 336 337 338 339 ... >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]