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Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,12:24   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 28 2007,12:14)
 
Quote (stevestory @ May 27 2007,21:03)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 27 2007,21:59)
I like how Dave's now throwing around the phrase 'consensus science' like it's a dirty word. Shows he's continuing his descent into straight crackpottery, which pleases me.  :)

that comes direct from Michael Crichton, who gives immensely stupid speeches about how anything which is 'consensus' is not 'science'.

And, if you have DT's shaky grasp of logic, that means that anything that is not 'consensus' is science.

At this point the door is wide open to bottomless crackpottery.  :)

I can see where this comes from. Look at the most famous and honoured scientists throughout history. They are always the ones that turned "consensus" science upon it's head. I am talking Einstein, Galileo and Newton etc.

What the creationists miss is that these guys brought facts/measurements/observations etc to the table and scientists had no choice but to accept them (facts etc).

Creationists seem to just notice that they (revolutionary scientists) where "off-base" and ignore the fact that they provided evidence.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,14:13   

Holy crap. Avalos's post linked to above is forthright and plain, and has a brutal effect on UD's stupid attemps to smear him:

Quote


Hello, Dr. Dembski,
Thanks for your post in which you “concede” that Mercury might have had the designation that I cited. Indeed, in 1998, that is how Mercury sub-titled itself, and I was only trying to be as complete and accurate as possible in citing it.

What else was I supposed to do when that is how Mercury described itself in 1998?

To answer your other question, let me say that I was not just honest in how I listed that publication on my CV, but I was MORE than honest.

On my official CV, I classified “Heavenly Conflicts” under “other” or as an article in a “semi-popular publication” despite the fact that Mercury has “journal” in its own subtitle. But I had to cite the name of the publication accurately and completely, nonetheless.

I know that my article was not “peer-reviewed,” and so I was honest enough to say that it passed editorial review. So why chide me for being honest?

But passing editorial review by an editor who is an astronomer should be a credit to an author who is not an astronomer. After all, The Privileged Planet is published by Regnery Press, which is not even a science press at all.

Insofar as whether my article in Mercury was considered for my tenure case. The answer is definitely NO. My tenure file with actual publications was submitted in the fall of 1997, BEFORE that article in Mercury was published in 1998. That article, if at all, would have been cited as work in progress, in the fall of 1997.

When going for promotion to full professor, that article was not listed as part of my refereed publications, but again as either “other” or as an article in semi-popular publications. Again, I claimed nothing more for it than honesty demanded.

And your co-bloggers, who seem bent on comparing my citation and article counts to those of Dr. Gonzalez really seem misinformed about how different the fields of religious/biblical studies are from Astronomy.

Citation counts are not how we are judged in biblical studies. Refereed articles may count more in Astronomy than books. Books count for a lot in biblical/religious studies.

I had 5 books (4 solely authored, and one edited) since I received tenure. I believe that is the most books ever published by any associate professor in my department at the time such an associate professor was promoted to full professor.

Nor are big grants expected of biblical scholars, or of many scholars in the humanities.

The impact of our work, especially books, is judged by other scholars and reviewers in order to measure someone’s status in our fields, one of which is, for me, health care in the ancient Near East.

In assessing my status in this area of inquiry, it is perhaps best to begin not with my own words, but with the words of Mark W. Hamilton, a reviewer of my book, Health Care and the Rise of Christianity (1999), in the journal Restoration Quarterly (2001) p. 124:

“One of the foremost experts on ancient Near Eastern medicine and the author of a major monograph on the subject (Illness and Health Care in the Ancient Near East, [Harvard Semitic Monographs 54; Atlanta Scholars Press, 1995]) extends his research here into early Christianity.”

To be called, by independent reviewers, “one of the foremost experts” in my field is what is important in going from associate to full professor. An article in Mercury certainly was not the crucial factor, but one of those supplementary items that showed my range
of interests.

In addition, service is also weighed more in going from associate to full, and I had started an entire academic program (U.S. Latino/a Studies) at ISU at the same time I produced 5 books, refereed articles, book chapters, etc.

I also had won a Master Teacher award in 2003-04 in addition to the university-wide Professor of the Year award in 1996.

So I had teaching, research, and service requirements well covered.

In any case, your overall tactics in this tenure-denial case are certainly misguided. You should be concentrating on the field of Astronomy, not on persecuting a biblical scholar with such highly personalized attacks on my integrity.

You are not creating any more sympathy for the overall cause of ID when colleagues at ISU and in the broader community of biblical scholars see how
you are behaving.

In fact, you seem to be persuading even some of my past detractors to come to my defense. See, for example, the posts at Higgaion (“In Defense of Hector Avalos”) by a scholar with whom I have disagreed in the past: http://www.heardworld.com/higgaion/?p=621#comments

   
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,14:19   

Can Dembski not see that all UD does is get him humiliated on a regular basis? Is he ever going to wake up to that fact and shut it down? Or does he not really care what any knowledgeable person thinks of him, so long as it fools the FtKs and JoeGs and Davetards?

   
someotherguy



Posts: 398
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,14:20   

Agreed, Steve.  That was an excellent response.  I wonder if he'll response to Dembski's latest missive.

--------------
Evolander in training

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,14:23   

Quote (N.Wells @ May 28 2007,11:30)
 
Quote
(From Dr. Dr. Dembski at http://www.uncommondescent.com/evoluti....22911): I expect I would have voted for your tenure had I been on any of the appropriate committees. (Would you do the same for Guillermo Gonzalez?)


So now Dr. Dr. Dembski thinks that tenure decisions should be a matter of trading votes?  

As others have noted, much irony and more than a little hypocrisy can be found in Dembski criticizing someone for not publishing in peer-reviewed journals and belittling him for publishing outside his area of expertise.

     
Quote
If anything, you seem to be getting considerable mileage now by playing the martyr.

Well, IDists certainly know about that tactic.

     
Quote
If so, why shouldn’t Gonzalez’s PRIVILEGED PLANET count likewise in favor of his tenure?

Here the good Dr. Dr. demonstrates even greater ignorance of the tenure process.  Tenure committees go to great lengths to evaluate publication accomplishments in the humanities.  Mostly, tenure committees rely on (1) evaluations by independent experts in the candidate's specialty, (2) any awards from professional organizations, (3) the existence of favorable professional reviews (i.e., in professional journals, not in the mass media), and, above all else, (4) the "venue", which is to say the status or reputation of the publisher.  People in the humanities know this, so there is considerable competition to get published in the most prestigious venues.  On a scale of 0-10, judging from what I see coming off its presses in recent years (e.g., Jonathan Wells' "Icons of Evolution", O'Neill & Corsi's "Unfit for Command", Ann Coulter's "High Crimes & Misdemeanours"), I would guess that Regnery now rates at 0 (if not less), so no, Gonzalez's book wouldn't contribute much toward winning tenure.

     
Quote
Or do you know in advance (on what grounds? scientific? ideological? philosophical? …) that he’s full of it and you’re not.

Well, that was part of Avalos' original point: he was able to tell in advance that "Privileged Planet" is hogwash, because he published an article that countered those sorts of arguments in 1998, whereas "Privileged Planet" was published in 2004.  Sheesh.

So Dembksi and company falsely smeared Avalos, then when he points out their lies, they accuse him of playing the martyr.

That Dembski schmendrick has some chutzpah.

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,14:33   

Quote
And your co-bloggers, who seem bent on comparing my citation and article counts to those of Dr. Gonzalez really seem misinformed about how different the fields of religious/biblical studies are from Astronomy.


I don't think Avalos realizes how true and much more general this statement is.

substitute any branch of education for astronomy, and it would still be just as accurate.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Jake



Posts: 50
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,14:35   

Quote (someotherguy @ May 28 2007,14:20)
Agreed, Steve.  That was an excellent response.  I wonder if he'll response to Dembski's latest missive.

It is an excellent response, but I wonder, what is the point of responding there any more? For days after the echo chamber had been informed of the vacuity of their initial claims, they continued to blindly repeat them, as if nothing had happened. These are people who genuinely do not listen to contradictory information.

Whilst I fully support the idea of educating people who are honestly ignorant, I am increasingly of the opinion that UD has no more of them left. All thats left at that site are bitter losers, trolls and fantasists.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,14:39   

Quote
All thats left at that site are bitter losers, trolls and fantasists.


yup.  they banned all the others.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,14:41   

Quote (Jake @ May 28 2007,15:35)
Quote (someotherguy @ May 28 2007,14:20)
Agreed, Steve.  That was an excellent response.  I wonder if he'll response to Dembski's latest missive.

It is an excellent response, but I wonder, what is the point of responding there any more? For days after the echo chamber had been informed of the vacuity of their initial claims, they continued to blindly repeat them, as if nothing had happened. These are people who genuinely do not listen to contradictory information.

Whilst I fully support the idea of educating people who are honestly ignorant, I am increasingly of the opinion that UD has no more of them left. All thats left at that site are bitter losers, trolls and fantasists.

There is absolutely no point w/r/t the UD residents. They're hopeless. From my point of view the point of Avalos's response is to entertain me and humiliate Dembski in the eyes of intelligent people, and then to entertain me once or twice more when the guys at ScienceBlogs pick it up in the next few days.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,15:07   

Just to document here what Dembski said about Avalos in the unlikely (mmmpphhh) event that it disappears from UD:

Quote
24 May 2007
And Hector Avalos deserves tenure at ISU?
William Dembski

The tenure denial of Guillermo Gonzalez by Iowa State University has been much discussed on this blog of late. The tenure of Hector Avalos, religious studies professor and militant atheist at Iowa State University, however, has yet to be broached here. So let’s do it.

Avalos conducted a witch hunt of Guillermo Gonzalez back in 2005 (go here). He just posted on PZ Myers’ blog a response to the Discovery Institute (go here). Here is an interesting quote from it:
Quote
   I may not be an astronomer, but my article, “Heavenly Conflicts: The Bible and Astronomy,” passed the editorial review of Mercury: The Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific 27 no. 2 (March/April, 1998), pages 20-24. There, I critiqued fine-tuning arguments before I even heard of Gonzalez.

   The Astronomical Society of the Pacific is the same organization that has published, via a sister publication (Publications of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific), some of the work of Guillermo Gonzalez.

   So the irony is that it is the scholar of religion whose work passed the editorial review of a legitimate astronomical organization, and it is the astronomer who has not published a refereed article on ID in an astronomical journal.
A couple of points about Avalos’s article. First, he misstates the name of the journal. It is actually called “Mercury Magazine,” and is not the ASP’s academic journal. It is its membership magazine. In fact, ASP does not list as an academic journal but under the category of magazine: www.astrosociety.org/pubs.html. That’s why Avalos says it passed editorial muster but not peer-review muster. This way he can fudge on the article’s status but have plausible deniability. This is also evident by his placing in the magazine’s subtitle “The Journal of…” even though it is not there in the actual publication. See the contributors guidelines here: www.astrosociety.org/…/guidelines.html. There is quote from it worth extracting:
Quote
We encourage writers to read past issues to get a sense of Mercury’s style. Mercury strives for a conversational tone. As you write your article, envision yourself sitting next to a stranger during a long airplane flight. The stranger asks about your interests, and after you tell him or her that you are an astronomer or are interested in astronomy, the stranger asks you for more detail. The stranger is intelligent and inquisitive, and may have a basic knowledge of science and astronomy, but he or she does not have a formal education in astronomy. Write the article as if you are speaking to this person. And remember that most readers will be reading your article in their leisure time.
Rigorous academic journal? Has Avalos puts this on his CV as a peer-reviewed article? Did this help him get tenure or promotion at ISU?

Second, the article touches the fine-tuning arguments in a cursory and superficial way, something one would expect from an academic not well-versed in the details of the philosophical arguments that one is required to know in order to engage the topic competently. Most of the article is a superficial rant against Bible-science arguments, rehashing the Galileo case in its secular urban-legend fashion. This is perhaps not surprising given Avalos’s biosketch at the end of the article (note that he was an assistant professor at the time he wrote it and thus without tenure):
Quote
HECTOR AVALOS is Assistant Professor of Religious Studies at Iowa State University in Ames, where he was named the 1996 Professor of the Year. He also serves as Executive Director for the Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion.He was a former fundamentalist child evangelist who now crusades for a non-religious understanding of the universe.
Note the statement in bold. Could it be that Avalos has gone too far in going after Gonzalez? Is he so desperate to undo Gonzalez’s “religious understanding of the universe” that he discredits himself rather than Gonzalez?

Third, if Avalos has fudged on the status of this article—and has done so in a very public way—his CV may loaded with this type of fluff. Perhaps it’s time to start hunting for the real witch.

   
djmullen



Posts: 327
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,15:09   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 27 2007,20:59)
   
Quote (someotherguy @ May 27 2007,15:55)
   
Quote (dhogaza @ May 27 2007,15:15)
Quote of the day ...
       
Quote
Anthropogenic warming through CO2 is a fallacy. It can’t stand up against the evidence even now and all it’s going to take to make a laughingstock of the consensus science and agenda driven politics behind it is finding the real cause of climate heating and cooling. When the anthropogenic global warming hoax falls it’s going to give consensus science a black eye that will IMO take down other consensus science just-so stories along with it. NeoDarwinian macro-evolution is one of those other stories.

I won't bother identifying the author of this gem.  Y'all have already figured it out :)

That would be the latest piece of paradigm-shattering, autodidactical research from our much-beloved DaveScot.

I like how Dave's now throwing around the phrase 'consensus science' like it's a dirty word. Shows he's continuing his descent into straight crackpottery, which pleases me.  :)

Consensus science is the latest right-wing shibboleth.  I heard Rush Limburger use it last week.

Here's a key to understanding consensus science, from the Little Red Right Wing Dictionary:

consensus science   [kuh n-sen-suhs [sahy-uh ns]
    noun, conservative

1. In conservative idiology, the idea that no unpleasant scientific theory is valid unless every single scientist in the world agrees with it in every respect.  Any objection to any part of the theory by anybody who calls himself a scientist automatically totally invalidates the entire theory, even if that person is a crank.

Scientific theories that support conservative beliefs are automatically valid no matter how much the atheist liberal devil worshipping church burning ebola boys whine about them, including those that have won Nobel Prizes in Sympathy for Communism.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,15:13   

and let's archive this:

Quote


13

O'Leary

05/25/2007

10:44 am

Hey, this isn’t the School of Social Work!

Why are we sitting around psychoanalyzing Hector Avalos?

His recollections of the faith of his cradle are irrelevant to the issue of susbstance here:

If Avalos misrepresented a magazne article as an article for a journal whose topic area (astronomy) is DIRECTLY relevant to his attack on Guillermo Gonzalez, his whole record had better be reexamined closely, in the light of the Gonzalez tenure controversy.

It is at least possible that he planted this citation in order to inflate his supposed credentials to launch an attack that might endanger Gonzalez’ tenure.

My goodness, this gets deeper and nastier - reminds me of the Beckwith tenure case … any thoughts there, Bill?


Quote


15

William Dembski

05/25/2007

11:00 am

Tard Alert!

Denyse: If Avalos’s anti-ID writings are gaining him tenure and promotion at ISU, then this needs to be brought out. It seems to me unlikely that bringing it out will make any difference immediately in President Geoffrey’s decision about Gonzalez’s tenure case. But as our issues continue to get taken up in the wider culture, this will be further evidence of hypocrisy on the other side. A hundred years from now Gonzalez’s ideas about our place in the cosmos being designed to facilitate scientific discovery will be remembered. Avalos, on the other hand, will be seen as a crank flailing to find justifications for why the evidence of design in the universe is nothing of the sort. A key point to bear in mind: If Avalos is getting promoted for undercutting ID (in popular venues at that), and if ISU denies Gonzalez tenure because of his support of ID, then ISU has not only made up its mind about ID but also undercut academic freedom on this topic.

   
N.Wells



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(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,16:14   

Quote
Can Dembski not see that all UD does is get him humiliated on a regular basis? Is he ever going to wake up to that fact and shut it down?

It isn't UD that's humiliating Dembski so much as Dembski himself, so there's no significant difference between humiliating himself there as opposed to doing the same thing someplace else. :)

Honestly, if I'd embarrassed myself one-twentieth as much, I'd want to just crawl under a rock and stay there.

  
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,16:20   

If that site were a band it would be called Billy D and the Numbnuts.

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,16:31   

Quote
Scientific theories that support conservative beliefs are automatically valid no matter how much the atheist liberal devil worshipping church burning ebola boys whine about them, including those that have won Nobel Prizes in Sympathy for Communism.


How cool would that be, having a Nobel Prize in "sympathy for communism"?

could we change it to "sympathy for Marxism", though?

communism is simply too broad a term, given its general usage in the 20th century.

for a more general term, maybe a slightly different award for "sympathy for socialism"?

hmm, a whole series of sympathy awards begins to march through my mind...

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,16:46   

Quote (N.Wells @ May 28 2007,17:14)
Quote
Can Dembski not see that all UD does is get him humiliated on a regular basis? Is he ever going to wake up to that fact and shut it down?

It isn't UD that's humiliating Dembski so much as Dembski himself, so there's no significant difference between humiliating himself there as opposed to doing the same thing someplace else. :)

Honestly, if I'd embarrassed myself one-twentieth as much, I'd want to just crawl under a rock and stay there.

I think the format is causing him trouble. His books and essays are much different than UD. His books are boring gibberish dressed up in fake math and logic chains. Same with his long essasys. It's tedious nonsense. But most of his humiliations over the last few years have happened on UD. The medium is affecting his message.

And of course the babbling of his nitwit co-bloggers doesn't exactly bathe him in reflected glory.

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,17:12   

Quote (stevestory @ May 28 2007,16:46)
And of course the babbling of his nitwit co-bloggers doesn't exactly bathe him in reflected glory.

Rectumfied Glory perhaps.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,17:14   

Quote
And of course the babbling of his nitwit co-bloggers doesn't exactly bathe him in reflected glory.


I wonder if WD40 is far gone enough at this point, that he actually thinks it does?

after all, JAD thinks ANY response at all bathes him in glory.

seriously, is Dembski that far gone at this point?

The Master Tard certainly IS that far gone, so why couldn't Dembski also be?

after all, if there is even the slightest chance that Dembski's whole charade really isn't just a lot of "street theatre", then the man must be suffering some severe cognitive dissonance.

that leads to having to resolve it one way or the other, and his posts HAVE been sliding steadily downhill since his "predictions" of how Kitzmiller would turn out were utterly demolished.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,17:40   

Quote (Ichthyic @ May 28 2007,17:14)
 
Quote
And of course the babbling of his nitwit co-bloggers doesn't exactly bathe him in reflected glory.


I wonder if WD40 is far gone enough at this point, that he actually thinks it does?

FWIW (nuthin' probly), I figure he's playing to the crowd.

He knows he's full of it, but as long as the rubes keep shellin' out the bucks...

And what incentive does he have to retract his BS, really?  It's not like his reputation would ever recover, he'll be laughed at for the rest of his life, blah blah blah.

His only real choice is to do what he's doing for as long as the money flows, which will be forever.  There will always be people willing to pay to hear what they want.

That's not to defend him, he's still a sheister.

DAJ, on the other hand, is just in need of serious medical attention.  Whole 'nuther thing.  The funny thing is that as nuts as DAJ is, he's still one up on WAD.  At least DAJ was a respected scientist at one time.  Better to be a has-been than a never-was.

Myself, I'm a late bloomer.  I'm waiting 'til just before I die to release my world-changing science, so I can go out on top.

:)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,17:57   

Quote
And what incentive does he have to retract his BS, really


good point, either way, huckster or believer, he has no real motivation for retractions.  In fact, just the opposite.  so why does he even bother with the half-assed ones he just tried with Avalos, I wonder?



Quote
Whole 'nuther thing.


whole nutter thing, you mean?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,19:26   

Quote (Ichthyic @ May 28 2007,18:14)
Quote
And of course the babbling of his nitwit co-bloggers doesn't exactly bathe him in reflected glory.


I wonder if WD40 is far gone enough at this point, that he actually thinks it does?

after all, JAD thinks ANY response at all bathes him in glory.

seriously, is Dembski that far gone at this point?

The Master Tard certainly IS that far gone, so why couldn't Dembski also be?

after all, if there is even the slightest chance that Dembski's whole charade really isn't just a lot of "street theatre", then the man must be suffering some severe cognitive dissonance.

that leads to having to resolve it one way or the other, and his posts HAVE been sliding steadily downhill since his "predictions" of how Kitzmiller would turn out were utterly demolished.

(It's ironic that this post is about estimating peoples' intelligence, considering that if I had any brains I would be watching this Atul Gawande thing in CSPAN2 instead of writing this post)

I don't know how smart any of the UD people are. I don't know enough about them. All I can do is guessed based on the thought processes revealed indirectly through their writing. Intelligence is really hard to pin down, anyway, and it's not distributed homogeneously among a person's views. Is a racist Nobel Laureate a genius or an idiot? etc etc.

All I can do is guess based on their writing. Dembski's writing is on the high end of the complexity bell curve. Davetard and maybe one or two others are around the middle of the bell curve. Salvador I can't judge, because I'm guessing English isn't his first language--and god help him if it is. The rest of them, GilDodgen, BarryA, DougMoron, Denyse,the other contributors and commenters, are way on the simple side of the bell curve. Based on that, I would guess that Dembski's much smarter than the rest of them, and surely sees how embarrassing his little clique is, but I can't put much confidence in that belief.

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,19:45   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 28 2007,17:40)
FWIW (nuthin' probly), I figure he's playing to the crowd.

He knows he's full of it, but as long as the rubes keep shellin' out the bucks...

And what incentive does he have to retract his BS, really?  It's not like his reputation would ever recover, he'll be laughed at for the rest of his life, blah blah blah.

His only real choice is to do what he's doing for as long as the money flows, which will be forever.  There will always be people willing to pay to hear what they want.

Not so sure about that.  According to the most recent FTE Newsletter they are still at least 100 large short of what they need to get The Design of Life published.  Perhaps WmAD has been appearing increasingly bitter because the gravy train has done jumped the track.

On a similar note, did anyone catch his offer to debate Hector Avalos?  

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,20:13   

Quote
On a similar note, did anyone catch his offer to debate Hector Avalos?  


prediction:

if so, this will only happen if Dembksi is paid a considerable sum for doing so, which is exactly how the last so-called "debate" he was supposed to be involved in got cancelled, IIRC.

If he offers to do it completely for free, and at Avalos' university, I'll be shocked, to say the least.

what was the proposed topic, exactly?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,20:19   

Quote (Ichthyic @ May 28 2007,20:13)
Quote
On a similar note, did anyone catch his offer to debate Hector Avalos?  


prediction:

if so, this will only happen if Dembksi is paid a considerable sum for doing so, which is exactly how the last so-called "debate" he was supposed to be involved in got cancelled, IIRC.

If he offers to do it completely for free, and at Avalos' university, I'll be shocked, to say the least.

what was the proposed topic, exactly?

The debate offer didn't come with a topic.  It was almost an offhand comment.  WmAD mentioned that is wife was from Iowa and he visited there occasionally. I have to wonder if the offers to debate, first Barbara Forrest and now Avalos, are ways to generate buzz.  A way to recapture some of the limelight, if you will.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,20:24   

Quote

I don't know how smart any of the UD people are. I don't know enough about them. All I can do is guessed based on the thought processes revealed indirectly through their writing. Intelligence is really hard to pin down, anyway, and it's not distributed homogeneously among a person's views. Is a racist Nobel Laureate a genius or an idiot? etc etc.


I'm not sure it has much to do with the overall level of intelligence, so much as what their particular brains have done in order to defend the indefensible.  the constant spinning of denials, half-truths, and projections in order to maintain a particular viewpoint wears on one quickly.  

Unless they are ALL faking it in entirety, which I find possible (but not likely) for Dembksi, at least, but not the others.

I think there was an interesting debate recently on Pharyngula, or here (?) about whether people like Falwell REALLY believe much of the crap they spew.

at some level, I think they do, though they might have constructed a bit of "freakshow" on top of their core beliefs in order to better garner cash from the rubes.

How to tell?

hmm.  well, people like Deepak Head-in-Ass Chopra are relatively consistent in how they spew the woo over time; are not flumoxed by simple questions, and rarely set themselves up to feel a need to retract anything.  Having had a father who was a used car salesman for 25 years, the pattern seems familiar, so I'd conclude that DC really doesn't swallow much of the BS he shovels.

it might just be that Dembski is still getting his "sea legs", as it were, and so the nature of his posts has changed over the last couple of years, but I don't think so.  I see a greater and greater proportion of his posts sounding desperate and irrational.  I really do think at least half of what he believes is projected into his posts, and the conflicts between what he remembers when he studied with REAL scientists and mathemeticians as a grad student, vs. the kind of world he has placed himself in now, constantly eat away at him.

the only thing that really bothers me, is that if he keeps going in the direction he appears to be, I'm gonna end up feeling SORRY for the bastard after another year or so.

so, I do hope (!?) it really is all him just working out how to present his "street theatre" to best please the rubes, but I rather doubt that's all it is.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,20:25   

Quote
A way to recapture some of the limelight, if you will.


that, and a way to score some quick cash.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,20:26   

Quote (Ichthyic @ May 28 2007,21:13)
If he offers to do it completely for free, and at Avalos' university, I'll be shocked, to say the least.

Whatever endocrinological systems of yours would most suffer from that sort of shock can rest easy. There is not a cloud on the horizon.

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,20:48   

Quote (stevestory @ May 28 2007,20:26)
Quote (Ichthyic @ May 28 2007,21:13)
If he offers to do it completely for free, and at Avalos' university, I'll be shocked, to say the least.

Whatever endocrinological systems of yours would most suffer from that sort of shock can rest easy. There is not a cloud on the horizon.

hmm, it makes me kind of hope he does offer it for free and under the conditions Avalos specifies.

I am all of a sudden kinda curious as to which endocrine systems would be affected, now that you mention it.

"Oh my, I do believe I got the vapors!"

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,22:18   

Quote (Ichthyic @ May 28 2007,20:25)
 
Quote
A way to recapture some of the limelight, if you will.


that, and a way to score some quick cash.

I am not sure I totally agree. My recollection of the stillborn offer to debate Barbara Forrest was that he would accept only as much honoraria as was offered the other participants, with the implication that he was open to doing it for free.  While I don't argue that cash has something to do with it, I have suspected it was mostly ego (with money being one of the units of measure.)

Since Dover, he has been increasingly confined to a ghetto of his own creation. Honestly, I think he finds the adulation that comes his way at UD, and the role of a theology professor at SWBTS, unsatisfying.  I can only describe his contributions at UD over the last year as having been phoned in. The whole Gonzalez-Avalos deal is the first time, IMO, that he has put more than a half-assed effort into his contributions there. He sees himself as an impact player and strives for a larger stage than UD and SWBTS can ever offer.  After his complete failure to ensnare Forrest into "Vise Strategy: Part Deux", the Gonzalez tenure denial is the first thing that looks like a casus belli.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,22:43   

I guess the thing about Pianka was pretty half-posteriered, though he managed to cause a lot of trouble anyway even at that. Getting somebody a bunch of unwarranted death threats is a bit beyond street theater.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
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