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  Topic: Has the Mystery of Life's Origin Been Solved?, Current status of abiogenesis< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,21:52   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Dec. 07 2006,18:44)
I'm just surprised that no one's interested in exploring how close science is to a theory of life's origins. Personally, I don't care what the ID "explanation" is, and have no interested in God talk on this issue. Nevertheless, Thaxton and Bradley (despite their extensive biases) bring up some interesting points that are worth discussing IMHO. Why can't you guys look past your dislike for creationists for a second and use their criticisms as a springboard for a fruitful discussion? I'll admit that these guys could be full of crap -- perhaps they're using their expertise to snow laymen like myself. Heck, even if the book was honest and relevant for its time, modern research might very well have rendered their core objections obsolete. If so, great -- we all learn a little bit about the current evidence. If not -- well, the theistic explanation will still be vapid. Sounds like a win-win to me.

I'm no expert on abiogenetic theories (to put it mildly), but I would say those theories are probably more advanced than, e.g., superstring theories or loop quantum gravity. I.e., as Louis pointed out, there are several methods that seem adequate to at least get self-catalyzing reactions going, and there are several candidates for self-replicators. Meanwhile, superstring theories cannot even seem to make any predictions as to things like particle masses.

Again, given that we're discussing events over a billion years in the past, it seems doubtful that anyone will ever be able to determine exactly which mechanisms initially got life started started on earth, but there are plenty of potential candidates. There doesn't seem to be any obstacle to life having arisen on earth without the need to invoke supernatural agency.

Seems like a decent-enough start to me.

--------------
2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,06:28   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Dec. 07 2006,18:44)
Why can't you guys look past your dislike for creationists for a second and use their criticisms

"Their" criticisms?  **"THEIR"** criticisms??????  

ID/creationists don't HAVE any "criticisms".  Indeed, they have nothing at all whatsoever original to say on the subject.  The best they can do is parrot OTHER PEOPLE'S CRITICISMS, and add "therefore godiddit".

All of the arguments and questions regarding abiogenesis come from scientists who are working in the field.

None of them come from creationists or IDers (who, by the way, are NOT working in the field).

It is also scientists who are working in the field that are carrying out the research towards answering those questions.

ID/creationists, on the other hand, aren't doing dick.

Therefore there simply is no reason to listen to ID/creationists.  They add nothing.  Nothing at all whatsoever.

(shrug)

--------------
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Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,09:48   

Lenny,

I've been debating whether to comment or not for a variety of reasons, not least of which is that I'm fecking busy and cannot be arsed with (as I said) casting pearls before swine like the troll. The whole reason that pursuing this thread with the troll is worthless is because it is, yet again, an attempt to play silly buggers. Even when pretending to be reasonable the troll shows his true colours and thus fails.

What's the reason we've been given by the troll for taking the comments of Thraxton and chums seriously? Because they have PhDs in chemistry? So what? I have a PhD in chemistry and you'll note the troll's lack of keenness to accept my (or indeed any non creationist's) work or word in any fashion, especially in anything remotely like the way they accept the faux critique of people who agree with them. You'll note btw they often project this illogic onto others, as if the whole world thinks like they do. It's fascinating psychologically.

The whole argument from the creationists and the troll is the usual non sequitur: "I personally find something significant/insiginificant (dependant on the situation) and thus any comments that may reinforce my pre-existing conclusions are worth consideration". Look at the poncing about with regards to fine tuning as a great example. The argument amounts to no more than "LOOOK LOOOOOK!!!! It's SO significant!" covered up with phoney probability calculations and obfuscatory use of jargon they rarely understand. The Thraxton book is a joke, was a joke when it was published, and will remain a joke. Amusingly in complaining that scientists use techinical terms and owe them explanations the trolls and creobots of this world demonstrate a laudible skepticism. Unfortunately this skepticism seems only directed against those with whom they are precommitted to disagree, which is laess laudible. This of course is projected as well. Ah sweet irony.

Further evidence that this is yet another pointless gambit in the troll's game of being an annoying tit is the responses we're getting. When any reluctance to discuss any topic is expressed, based on the demonstrated and well recorded trolling behaviour exhibited, we get fake umbrage and insinuation (I'm shocked no one wants to  discuss this,implying that there must be some hidden problem), ridiculous bravado (you are incapable of answering the comments of creationists), and the usual obfuscation (this is about your dislike for creationists).

Another point to note is that it is assumed by the troll that the creationists have some genuine criticisms which need answering when they don't (as any tiny quantity of knowledge of the subjects in hand demonstrates). Also of note is the fact that, despite calling the troll's behaviour as it is (which is a distraction from any scientific topic other than aberrant psychology), there have been examples of key mechanisms and pointers to the lit and groups working in the area from both myself  and Dr GH and these have been ignored. Yet another data point in evidence that this is another troll bullshit saga.

Oh and whilst I think of it, if anyone has access (I do but no point posting a link because it requires payment of about $170 for non subscribers) there's a recent special issue of Phil Trans R Soc B on OOL research. There's also a technical conference in Florence next year (I think might be 2008, I've signed up but don't have the details to hand) for those interested. Check the ISSOL website (www.issol.org) for details.

This is why I've said that the best forum to discuss this interesting topic in is one troll free, which means the troll that started this thread is not able to join in. The troll seems ignorant of the fact that, as you pinted out, it isn't the creationists that have valid questions and critiques regarding any scientific field let alone this one, it's the people working in it.

For example, one criticism of OOL research I have is there's too many biologists! The OOL is a chemical problem, as indeed is the origin and operation of the cell. But I'm not greedy I'll let the bacteria bashers have a go! Ok so that's slightly tongue in cheek, but there is a serious point. We have all the mechanisms necessary for self replicating, replicator/effector and cellular chemical systems to evolve very well understood. That's not the problem. The problem is, in a sense a synthetic chemistry problem. We know reactions that have worked on similar chemical substrates to give products like those desired but we haven't done the synthesis on the system we really want, only on these models. We even know that some of the substrates we want are available to us in nature. With abiogenesis we have this slightly backwards, we still know all the reactions and where the substrates are, but we don't yet know what we're trying to make. To a synthetic chemist this is a bit of an interesting one because the one thing we usually do know is what we're trying to make! But I digress.

When discussing PNA world vs RNA world etc what's the point when people don't know the structures or chemistry of the molecules? Or how common the monomeric elements are in space/nature? Or even what the structural aspects mean? The problem is that this type of chemistry doesn't easily lend itself to colloquial discussion at a non technical level. At a technical level it's great. The answers to the troll's original questions are, as I've already said, "excellent", "yes", and "of course they are. That question is a non sequitur and exposes both the ignorance of the questioner and the dishonesty of those who try to obfuscate the issue". As mentioned before the entropy angle is a standard creationist red herring. Just like the "information" challenge. It's the sort of question which annoys rather than interests or informs because it's based either on ignorance or dishonesty. Of course when this is mentioned we get the revealing comments from the troll/creobot. Ignorance is not a problem, in fact of anyone had a problem with ignorance we'd be shooting undergrads at the start of term. Willful ignorance is a different bag.

Lenny, you ask an excellent question. On what basis does the troll think that the comments of creationists like Thraxton have any merit at all? Why does the troll think that scientists owe him an answer or Thraxton's nonsense anything other than the annoyed contempt it deserves? Why do creationist lies seem to get a "by" when it comes to these discussions with the troll?

I imagine the answers, or indeed the evasion of them I expect, will be illuminating.

Louis

--------------
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BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,11:39   

Quote (Louis @ Dec. 08 2006,09:48)
Lenny,

The whole argument from the creationists and the troll is the usual non sequitur: "I personally find something significant/insiginificant (dependant on the situation) and thus any comments that may reinforce my pre-existing conclusions are worth consideration".
[snip]
The Thraxton book is a joke, was a joke when it was published, and will remain a joke. Amusingly in complaining that scientists use techinical terms and owe them explanations the trolls and creobots of this world demonstrate a laudible skepticism. Unfortunately this skepticism seems only directed against those with whom they are precommitted to disagree, which is laess laudible. This of course is projected as well. Ah sweet irony.

...we get fake umbrage and insinuation (I'm shocked no one wants to  discuss this,implying that there must be some hidden problem), ridiculous bravado (you are incapable of answering the comments of creationists), and the usual obfuscation (this is about your dislike for creationists).

Another point to note is that it is assumed by the troll that the creationists have some genuine criticisms which need answering when they don't (as any tiny quantity of knowledge of the subjects in hand demonstrates)...

...as you pinted out, it isn't the creationists that have valid questions and critiques regarding any scientific field let alone this one, it's the people working in it.

For example, one criticism of OOL research I have is there's too many biologists! ***screeeeech! no no, keep moving, there's nothing to see here*** The OOL is a chemical problem, as indeed is the origin and operation of the cell. But I'm not greedy I'll let the bacteria bashers have a go! Ok so that's slightly tongue in cheek, but there is a serious point. We have all the mechanisms necessary for self replicating, replicator/effector and cellular chemical systems to evolve very well understood. That's not the problem. The problem is, in a sense a synthetic chemistry problem. We know reactions that have worked on similar chemical substrates to give products like those desired but we haven't done the synthesis on the system we really want, only on these models. We even know that some of the substrates we want are available to us in nature. With abiogenesis we have this slightly backwards, we still know all the reactions and where the substrates are, but we don't yet know what we're trying to make. To a synthetic chemist this is a bit of an interesting one because the one thing we usually do know is what we're trying to make! But I digress.

When discussing PNA world vs RNA world etc what's the point when people don't know the structures or chemistry of the molecules? Or how common the monomeric elements are in space/nature? Or even what the structural aspects mean? The problem is that this type of chemistry doesn't easily lend itself to colloquial discussion at a non technical level. At a technical level it's great. The answers to the troll's original questions are, as I've already said, "excellent", "yes", and "of course they are. That question is a non sequitur and exposes both the ignorance of the questioner and the dishonesty of those who try to obfuscate the issue". As mentioned before the entropy angle is a standard creationist red herring. Just like the "information" challenge. It's the sort of question which annoys rather than interests or informs because it's based either on ignorance or dishonesty. Of course when this is mentioned we get the revealing comments from the troll/creobot. Ignorance is not a problem, in fact of anyone had a problem with ignorance we'd be shooting undergrads at the start of term. Willful ignorance is a different bag.

Lenny, you ask an excellent question. On what basis does the troll think that the comments of creationists like Thraxton have any merit at all? Why does the troll think that scientists owe him an answer or Thraxton's nonsense anything other than the annoyed contempt it deserves? Why do creationist lies seem to get a "by" when it comes to these discussions with the troll?

I imagine the answers, or indeed the evasion of them I expect, will be illuminating.

Louis

Louis,

That was a beautiful post.

Until I got to this part:    
Quote
too many biologists!
Yaaahhhggghhhh! Then I figured out that you didn't mean it globally as in "too many kittens" and I went back to reading.

Is there then, some differentiation of substrates at this point? Is there research that is creating some form of peptide based replicating compound? I mean, you don't know which compounds you are shooting for, wouldn't it make a difference? Are you looking at non enzymatic ligation systems and guessing at interesting ways to produce covalent bonds? That seems kind of random. How do you know which ones you want? Are you modeling these using software then I assume? I understand we are talking about the chemistry but you are assuming that you are going to try to create what? full-on RNA? A cell? Something that has been described biologically already? I think I am missing your point. Are you talking about engineering from a schematic which you can't read or needing to engineer one small part for a larger machine and you have no schematic for that part? Maybe more specifically, what are biologists doing that you would critisize as hindering or obfuscating?

Also, what is the current state of the art for PNA ligation? (I have never studied this in depth, although one of the labs we use does more normal DNA cloning and I am familiar with the methodology)

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,12:19   

BWE:

Quote
Louis,

That was a beautiful post.



Excellent! So now you're in a position to answer this question:

Is there experimental evidence or thermodynamic calculations in the literature that demonstrate that mineral catalysis can overcome the configurational entropy hurdles that Thaxton and Bradley mention? Or is there something wrong with their formulae? If there is, could you point out where they go wrong? Thanks.

Because I didn't see an answer in Louis's post.

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,12:45   

By the way, I keep hearing about how Mystery, a joke, etc. Well, if this is true, can someone give a specific example?

Here's where they discuss configurational entropy:

 
Quote
3. Configurational Entropy Work
Finally, we need to quantify the configurational entropy change (Sc) that accompanies the formation of DNA and protein. Here we will not get much help from standard experiments in which the equilibrium constants are determined for a polymerization reaction at various temperatures. Such experiments do not consider whether a specific sequence is achieved in the resultant polymers, but only the concentrations of randomly sequenced polymers (i.e., polypeptides) formed. Consequently, they do not measure the configurational entropy (Sc) contribution to the total entropy change (S). However, the magnitude of the configurational entropy change associated with sequencing the polymers can be calculated.

Using the definition for configurational "coding" entropy given in eq. 8-2c, it is quite straightforward to calculate the configurational entropy change for a given polymer. The number of ways the mass of the linear system may be arranged © can be calculated using statistics. Brillouin20 has shown that the number of distinct sequences one can make using N different symbols and Fermi-Dirac statistics is given by


= N!  (8-6)
If some of these symbols are redundant (or identical), then the number of unique or distinguishable sequences that can be made is reduced to



c = N! / n1!n2!n2!...ni!  (8-7)
where n1 + n2 + ... + ni = N and i defines the number of distinct symbols. For a protein, it is i =20, since a subset of twenty distinctive types of amino acids is found in living things, while in DNA it is i = 4 for the subset of four distinctive nucleotides.
A typical protein would have 100 to 300 amino acids in a specific sequence, or N = 100 to 300. For DNA of the bacterium E. coli, N = 4,000,000. In Appendix 1, alternative approaches to calculating c are considered and eq. 8-7 is shown to be a lower bound to the actual value.

For a random polypeptide of 100 amino acids, the configurational entropy, Scr, may be calculated using eq. 8-2c and eq. 8-7 as follows:



Scr = k lncr

since cr = N! / n1!n2!...n20! = 100! / 5!5!....5! = 100! / (5!;)20

= 1.28 x 10115  (8-8)
The calculation of equation 8-8 assumes that an equal number of each type of amino acid, namely 5, are contained in the polypeptide.
Since k, or Boltzmann's constant, equals 1.38 x 10-16 erg/deg, and ln [1.28 x 10115] = 265,



Scr = 1.38 x 10-16 x 265 = 3.66 x 10-14 erg/deg-polypeptide
If only one specific sequence of amino acids could give the proper function, then the configurational entropy for the protein or specified, aperiodic polypeptide would be given by



Scm = k lncm
= k ln 1
= 0
(8-9)
Determining scin Going from a Random Polymer to an Informed Polymer

The change in configurational entropy, Sc, as one goes from a random polypeptide of 100 amino acids with an equal number of each amino acid type to a polypeptide with a specific message or sequence is:



Sc = Scm - Scr

= 0 - 3.66 x 10-14 erg/deg-polypeptide
= -3.66 x 10-14 erg/deg-polypeptide  (8-10)
The configurational entropy work (-T Sc) at ambient temperatures is given by



-T Sc = - (298oK) x (-3.66 x 10-14) erg/deg-polypeptide
= 1.1 x 10-11 erg/polypeptide
= 1.1 x 10-11 erg/polypeptide x [6.023 x 1023 molecules/mole] / [10,000 gms/mole] x [1 cal] / 4.184 x 107 ergs

= 15.8 cal/gm  (8-11)
where the protein mass of 10,000 amu was estimated by assuming an average amino acid weight of 100 amu after the removal of the water molecule. Determination of the configurational entropy work for a protein containing 300 amino acids equally divided among the twenty types gives a similar result of 16.8 cal/gm.


In like manner the configurational entropy work for a DNA molecule such as for E. coli bacterium may be calculated assuming 4 x 106 nucleotides in the chain with 1 x 106 each of the four distinctive nucleotides, each distinguished by the type of base attached, and each nucleotide assumed to have an average mass of 339 amu. At 298oK:



-T Sc = -T (Scm - Scr)

= T ( Scr - Scm)

= kT ln (cr - lncm)

= kT ln [(4 x 106)! / (106)!(106)!(106)!(106)!] - kT ln 1

= 2.26 x 10-7 erg/polynucleotide

= 2.39 cal/gm  8-12
It is interesting to note that, while the work to code the DNA molecule with 4 million nucleotides is much greater than the work required to code a protein of 100 amino acids (2.26 x 10-7 erg/DNA vs. 1.10 x 10-11 erg/protein), the work per gram to code such molecules is actually less in DNA. There are two reasons for this perhaps unexpected result: first, the nucleotide is more massive than the amino acid (339 amu vs. 100 amu); and second, the alphabet is more limited, with only four useful nucleotide "letters" as compared to twenty useful amino acid letters. Nevertheless, it is the total work that is important, which means that synthesizing DNA is much more difficult than synthesizing protein.

It should be emphasized that these estimates of the magnitude of the configurational entropy work required are conservatively small. As a practical matter, our calculations have ignored the configurational entropy work involved in the selection of monomers. Thus, we have assumed that only the proper subset of 20 biologically significant amino acids was available in a prebiotic oceanic soup to form a biofunctional protein. The same is true of DNA. We have assumed that in the soup only the proper subset of 4 nucleotides was present and that these nucleotides do not interact with amino acids or other soup ingredients. As we discussed in Chapter 4, many varieties of amino acids and nucleotides would have been present in a real ocean---varieties which have been ignored in our calculations of configurational entropy work. In addition, the soup would have contained many other kinds of molecules which could have reacted with amino acids and nucleotides. The problem of using only the appropriate optical isomer has also been ignored. A random chemical soup would have contained a 50-50 mixture of D- and L-amino acids, from which a true protein could incorporate only the Lenantiomer. Similarly, DNA uses exclusively the optically active sugar D-deoxyribose. Finally, we have ignored the problem of forming unnatural links, assuming for the calculations that only CL-links occurred between amino acids in making polypeptides, and that only correct linking at the 3', 5'-position of sugar occurred in forming polynucleotides. A quantification of these problems of specificity has recently been made by Yockey.21


Now, the assumption of an 100 amino acid polypeptide might be too restrictive, because I believe that there is some evidence that a smaller polypeptide might have been able to kick things off. If so, the Scr component of the configurational entropy would be decreased, thus reducing the work involved. But to what extent? Or is this calculation relevant? If not, why not?

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,12:57   

"I think that the latest discoveries in physics argue for a God who fine-tuned the universe."

How dense can you be?  And what a dumb, stupid cop out.  You cannot argue that godditit until you prove god exists.  You might as well say "I think that the latest discoveries in physics argue for a santa claue who fine-tuned the universe."  or "I think that the latest discoveries in physics argue for Elvis who fine-tuned the universe."

And I thought you knew something about science.  That's why these threads of yours are so patently useless and stupid I might add.  Paley says goddidit, well where is your evidence that god even exists?  Prove god exists and we can theorize how he might have done it but until you prove god exists you're just another creationist troll.

Where is the latest god research?  And what are scientists proposing he might be made of?

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,13:12   

Mr_Christopher:

 
Quote
"I think that the latest discoveries in physics argue for a God who fine-tuned the universe."

How dense can you be?  And what a dumb, stupid cop out.  You cannot argue that godditit until you prove god exists.  


Really, Christopher. This stuff belongs in the LUCA thread. Since the existence (or nonexistence) of God plays no part in origins of life research, why are you bringing this issue up here? Why not try to demonstrate that the latest OOL hypotheses are plausible, or link to a source that answers my questions? That would be more effective, I think. Because it sounds to me like you wish to paper over the difficulties in scientific models by ridiculing theism. The problem with your approach is that science doesn't progress on the failures of its competitors (so called), but on its inherent strengths.

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,13:30   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Dec. 08 2006,12:19)
BWE:

 
Quote
Louis,

That was a beautiful post.



Excellent! So now you're in a position to answer this question:

Is there experimental evidence or thermodynamic calculations in the literature that demonstrate that mineral catalysis can overcome the configurational entropy hurdles that Thaxton and Bradley mention? Or is there something wrong with their formulae? If there is, could you point out where they go wrong? Thanks.

Because I didn't see an answer in Louis's post.

**EDIT** This is Louis' answer to your question:
Quote
Another point to note is that it is assumed by the troll that the creationists have some genuine criticisms which need answering when they don't (as any tiny quantity of knowledge of the subjects in hand demonstrates). Also of note is the fact that, despite calling the troll's behaviour as it is (which is a distraction from any scientific topic other than aberrant psychology), there have been examples of key mechanisms and pointers to the lit and groups working in the area from both myself  and Dr GH and these have been ignored. Yet another data point in evidence that this is another troll bullshit saga.


--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,14:25   

BWE:

       
Quote
     
Quote
     
Quote
(The Ghost of Paley @ Dec. 08 2006,12:19)
BWE:

Louis,

That was a beautiful post.




Excellent! So now you're in a position to answer this question:

Is there experimental evidence or thermodynamic calculations in the literature that demonstrate that mineral catalysis can overcome the configurational entropy hurdles that Thaxton and Bradley mention? Or is there something wrong with their formulae? If there is, could you point out where they go wrong? Thanks.

Because I didn't see an answer in Louis's post.


**EDIT** This is Louis' answer to your question:
   
Quote
Another point to note is that it is assumed by the troll that the creationists have some genuine criticisms which need answering when they don't (as any tiny quantity of knowledge of the subjects in hand demonstrates). Also of note is the fact that, despite calling the troll's behaviour as it is (which is a distraction from any scientific topic other than aberrant psychology), there have been examples of key mechanisms and pointers to the lit and groups working in the area from both myself  and Dr GH and these have been ignored. Yet another data point in evidence that this is another troll bullshit saga. 



In other words:

1) "We've got the answers";

2) "Here are a few links";

3) "You're a troll for even asking these questions. The evidence is there. We won't show you where, but it's out there. Trust us."

Sorry, that won't cut it. Can't you answer the questions in your own words, or at least quote from one one of those sources that the good doctors link too? Because if the answers are in their sources, it shouldn't be hard to find, should it?

Because Louis would never literature bluff, correct?

Here are the questions again:

 
Quote
Is there experimental evidence or thermodynamic calculations in the literature that demonstrate that mineral catalysis can overcome the configurational entropy hurdles that Thaxton and Bradley mention? Or is there something wrong with their formulae? If there is, could you point out where they go wrong? Thanks.


--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Ogee



Posts: 89
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,14:37   

Some better questions:

Is there any evidence that the there is such a thing as a "configurational entropy hurdle"?  Is this an accepted concept in chemistry or physics?  Is there peer-reviewed support of this sort of work?

Good luck!

  
Ogee



Posts: 89
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,14:56   

To put this in perspective, using this sort of energy calculation, a 300-page novel contains about 1,000,000 characters, from a set of about 65 (including spaces, punctuation, capital and small letters).

The "configurational entropy" of one specific arrangment of those 1M characters is 0 (ln1=0).

The "configurational entropy" of a random distribution of 1M letters from a population of 65 is:

k * (1e6)!/ 65 / 15385!

Which is a number somewhere around 10 ^ 3,000,000 ergs/letter.

OMFG!!! WHERE WILL THIS ENERGY COME FROM!??!?!! NOVELS ARE IMPOSSIBLE!!!! GODDIDDIT!!!!

  
phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,16:02   

That really great Ogee.

This is something from here.

Quote
Chance

Before the specified complexity of living systems began to be appreciated, it was thought that, given enough time, "chance" would explain the origin of living systems. In fact, most textbooks state that chance is the basic explanation for the origin of life. For example, Lehninger in his classic textbook Biochemistry states,

   We now come to the critical moment in evolution in which the first semblance of "life" appeared, through the chance association of a number of abiotically formed macromolecular components, to yield a unique system of greatly enhanced survival value.1

More recently the viability of "chance" as a mechanism for the origin of life has been severely challenged.2

We are now ready to analyze the "chance" origin of life using the approach developed in the last chapter. This view usually assumes that energy flow through the system is capable of doing the chemical and the thermal entropy work, while the configurational entropy work of both selecting and coding is the fortuitous product of chance.

To illustrate, assume that we are trying to synthesize a protein containing 101 amino acids. In eq. 8-14 we estimated that the total free energy increase (G) or work required to make a random polypeptide from previously selected amino acids was 300 kcal/mole. An additional 159 kcal/mole is needed to code the polypeptide into a protein. Since the "chance" model assumes no coupling between energy flow and sequencing, the fraction of the polypeptide that has the correct sequence may be calculated (eq. 8-16) using equilibrium thermodynamics, i.e.,

[protein concentration] / [polypeptide concentration] = exp ( - G / RT), eq. (9-1)

= exp (-159,000) / 1.9872 x 298)

or approximately 1 x 10^-117

This ratio gives the fraction of polypeptides that have the right sequence to be a protein.

   [NOTE: This is essentially the inverse of the estimate for the number of ways one can arrange 101 amino acids in a sequence (i.e., I / c in eq. 8-7)].

Eigen3 has estimated the number of polypeptides of molecular weight 10^4 (the same weight used in our earlier calculations) that would be found in a layer 1 meter thick covering the surface of the entire earth. He found it to be 10^41. If these polypeptides reformed with new sequences at the maximum rate at which chemical reactions may occur, namely 10^14/s, for 5 x 10^9 years [1.6 x 10^17 s], the total number of polypeptides that would be formed during the assumed history of the earth would be

10^41 x 10^14/s x 1.6 x 10^17s = 10^72 (9-2)

Combining the results of eq. 9-1 and 9-2, we find the probability of producing one protein of 101 amino acids in five billion years is only 1/ 10^45. Using somewhat different illustrations, Steinman4 and Cairns-Smith5 also come to the conclusion that chance is insufficient.

It is apparent that "chance" should be abandoned as an acceptable model for coding of the macromolecules essential in living systems. In fact, it has been, except in introductory texts and popularizations.


This is really terrible stuff.

Quote
This ratio gives the fraction of polypeptides that have the right sequence to be a protein.

They left out the word 'particular' here. As in, this ratio gives the fraction of polypeptides that have the right sequence to be a particular protein. Of course, any polypeptide of sufficient length (arbitrarily anything over ~20 or so residues) is by definition a protein.

If you have a whole lot of random peptide sequences all over the place, some of them are going to do something. They will have some sort of chemical reactivity toward other substances in their enviroment.

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To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,16:41   

Quote (Ogee @ Dec. 08 2006,14:37)
Some better questions:

Is there any evidence that the there is such a thing as a "configurational entropy hurdle"?  Is this an accepted concept in chemistry or physics?  Is there peer-reviewed support of this sort of work?

Good luck!



No.  There is an entropy from the number of ways a single material can have configurations, all of which have the same energy (such as solid CO, which is oriented one of two ways, i.e two distinct microstates).  In other words, entropy is the number of ways to distribute energy.  

An ensemble of many molecules made of a single peptide sequence has a "configurational" (conformational) entropy, but that is due to thermal effects (energy spread among discrete quantum vibration, rotation and translation energy levels, and hence nothing more special than the vibrations in water molecules), and its entropy would be zero at absolute zero (as any other perfectly ordered crystal would be).  A random mix of peptides with the same number of molecules would have the same entropy.

http://www.entropysite.com/cracked_crutch.html  Yes, it is a peer reviewed article.

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

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Faid



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Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,16:42   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Dec. 08 2006,12:19)
Excellent! So now you're in a position to answer this question:

Is there experimental evidence or thermodynamic calculations in the literature that demonstrate that mineral catalysis can overcome the configurational entropy hurdles that Thaxton and Bradley mention? Or is there something wrong with their formulae? If there is, could you point out where they go wrong? Thanks.

Because I didn't see an answer in Louis's post.

Seriously, Ghost, give it a rest.

You have defined yourself as a "theistic evolutionist", who believes abiogenesis took place.

We have both agreed that definite, indisputable "experimental evidence" for a mechanism for the OOL does NOT exist at the moment. There are only indications, that point to certain pathways for further research.

We have also agreed that the creationists simply resort to arguments from incredulty, and provide nothing of worth in this issue.

So, what is the point of asking this meaningless question?

If you want us to debate the thermodynamic hurdles, or all the other obstacles in OOL research, the best place to get them is in the scientific papers that identify them, examine them and try to overcome them- that's where creos copy them from in the first place!
How many of those experiments were done by creationists, Ghost?

All creationists do, is copy/paste the known, described and accounted for, undoubtedly existing problems in the research, and then gloat and say "Nyah nyah you haven't found a way, that means there IS no way, we win nyah nyah".

And that is as useless for research as it is ridiculous.

You have already agreed with this- so let me ask you again, and I hope you won't ignore me this time:

How do creationists contribute anything meaningful in the search for OOL? What do they offer that has not been already identified by biologists, who strive to figure things out?

If you are genuinely interested in learning about the latest on the OOL, why not discuss the actual data and research made in it (the same one creos copycat to use for their blithering nonsense)?

...

...Or did you get bored, and started trolling again? Because if you have, I wonder if you have any idea how unbelievably lame and immature that makes you look, and what it does to your recently aquired cred.

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Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,16:44   

Ogee,

I was joking about the too many biologists in field part. I married a biologist you can never have too many of them in my book. My point was that the problem of abiogenesis is essentially a chemical one. I'm all for interdisciplinary collaboration. The trips are better! And, more importantly, as one progresses from the physics end of the scientific spectrum towards the biological end of the scientific spectrum you get more and better looking women. Whilst TAing an undergrad lab many moons ago we had three groups in: one from BSc chemistry with biochem, one from straight unadulterated BSc chemistry, and one from BSc chemistry with material science and solid state physics. It was remarked upon that human female pulchritude varied considerably between the groups. It was noted that those students of a more biological bent were generally capable of having a shower, looking halfway decent, and were generally quite sexy. However those of a more physical persuasion looked like a day out from the serious youth sex offenders institute. {shrug} Eh, go figure!

Anyway back to the tawdry reality of discussing anything near the troll. The troll is playing his game of duelling authorities again, and has avoided the question (surprise surprise). Why should we expect Thraxton et al to have raised a valid problem? The fact that Thraxton has a PhD seems to have been the only reason given thus far, except of course that the troll find certain things "personally compelling".

My answers to the troll's original questions were not precisely as you stated btw.

Quote
The answers to the troll's original questions are, as I've already said, "excellent", "yes", and "of course they are. That question is a non sequitur and exposes both the ignorance of the questioner and the dishonesty of those who try to obfuscate the issue". As mentioned before the entropy angle is a standard creationist red herring. Just like the "information" challenge. It's the sort of question which annoys rather than interests or informs because it's based either on ignorance or dishonesty.


We find naturally occuring polymers in non-biological sources, we know that life is not in anyway a necessary condition for polymerisation. We know that naturally occuring amphiphilic molecules form bilayers, or even at certain critical concentrations "cell like" micelles. We know that near racemic autocatalytic systems can "run away" to produce highly enantiopure products. We know about microscopic reversibility and Hammet's postulate and a wide variety of kinetic and thermodynamic properties that influence the course of reactions. NONE of these things, not a single one, provides one tiny problem for the perfectly natural origins of self replicating or cellular chemical systems. As for configurational entropy hurdles, these indeed exist....perhaps not in that configuration of words (or as Thraxton and buddies use it), but entropy does provide  a hinderance in certain circumstances. Simply put if you are trying to perform a cyclisation reaction there is an entropic factor involved in the competing cyclisation and  polymerisation processes. This becomes very important when one is trying to make large (i.e. macro) cyclic molecules. The long floppy molecule has so many degrees of freedom that it is entropically unfavourable for the two ends to meet, so the competing polymerisation reaction gets alook in. Concentration plays a big part in this, in more dilute reactions two molecules are less likely to come together so the macrocyclisation process becomes more favoured. Ah the joys of chemistry!

Anyway, all this is meaningless fun because the troll hasn't justified why anyone should take his non sequitur questions or the blindingly dull lies of Thraxton and chums seriously at all. This justification interests me for a key reason: why should we expect the comments of creationists with abominable track records and openly admitted agendae to be of any relevance at all?

After all abiogenesis research is fascinating and technical, why should we waste our time explaining the fringes of chemical research to someone with a demonstrated inability to comprehend school science, basic logic or even show evidence of the most basic amoount of intellectual honesty? My answer would be that we shouldn't, especially as the troll has yet again demonstrated on this thread that he can't think for shit and isn't interested in the information, just point scoring and all round wankery.

The point is not about demonstrating the incorrectness of the calculations, the point is that the calculations are irrelevant. Pointless window dressing designed purely to obfuscate and hide the fact that these guys have no actual argument. Same shit, different day.

Louis

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Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,17:25   

Ogee Part 2:

Quote
Is there then, some differentiation of substrates at this point?


Not a relevant one I can think of.

Quote
Is there research that is creating some form of peptide based replicating compound? I mean, you don't know which compounds you are shooting for, wouldn't it make a difference?


I'm sure I read some recently, I'll see what I can dig out next week when I'm back in work and have access to the online lit. I seem to remember (possibly incorrectly) that the Rebek group's work used peptides.

Quote
Are you looking at non enzymatic ligation systems and guessing at interesting ways to produce covalent bonds?


Not me personally at the moment, but the answer to this is definitely yes. The "chemzyme", organocatalyst and organometallic filed are filled with this stuff. It's enoough material for a degree in chemistry, we might need to narrow ot down somewhat! For example, iron sulfide nodules catalyse certain chemistries, as do zeolites (clays etc). They do this via a huge number of different mechanisms. Some involve adsorption (a classic eg is Pd/C catalysed hydrogenation), some involve acid or base promotion of reaction in both a Lewis and Bronsted sense, some involve a templation, some just bring reagents into close proximity and some involve a reduction of the degrees of freedom a reagent has by encapsulating it.

Quote
That seems kind of random. How do you know which ones you want? Are you modeling these using software then I assume?


Believe me it's not being done randomnly at all! We know what sorts of systems to look at from all fields. Seriously the PNA/RNA stuff is fascinating, but it's the "higher" end kind of system. I would be very very very surprised if anything as "high tech" as polymeric RNA were the Ur-replicator. I wouldn't be at all surprised if simple nucleic acids were involved (they aren't exactly complex molecules from a chem standpoint) early on, and simple peptides and dipeptides also occur without biological intervention. Things like glycine are found in space for example. These again are exceedingly simple multifunctional molecules by comparison to anything large and biological.

Quote
I understand we are talking about the chemistry but you are assuming that you are going to try to create what? full-on RNA? A cell? Something that has been described biologically already?


Synthesising DNA/RNA etc is a simple matter and a really common research field today esp in antisense/antigene therapeutics, or trying to change DNA structure by putting in "unnatural" segments  for example. Again MASSIVE field, difficult to condense to a paragraph. Same goes for peptide chem, these things are relatively easy to make (Barry Sharpless, a recent org chem Novel laureate has started this field call "click chemistry" which involves using highly enthalpically favoured reactions like peptide bond formations using molcules predisposed to form these bonds (sprung loaded molecules) to rapidly build molecular complexity and probe structure/biological activity relationships. Ok so there's more to it than that, but that's the basics.

Quote
I think I am missing your point. Are you talking about engineering from a schematic which you can't read or needing to engineer one small part for a larger machine and you have no schematic for that part?


In terms of developing systems which do the things we want to explore like self replication, that's standard chemistry type research. Pinpointing the specific path taken from molecules to man as it were, apart from being nigh in impossible, is precisely trying to engineer without a schematic, or indeed any idea of which things happened in which order. But hey, it keeps me in a job!

Quote
Maybe more specifically, what are biologists doing that you would critisize as hindering or obfuscating?


Nothing at all, I was being humourous and unintentionally a complete arse apparently! OOL research is massively multidisciplinary. AT the moment it's gone beyond the "three blind men describing the elephant" stage, we're all on the same page talking about the same thing. We just don't know if it's a pygmy, Indian, African, Mamoth, or pink floating hangover elephant yet though! The bio guys tend to look top down, which is really useful, sort of like reverse engineering the problem from the advanced systems like DNA we have now. Tough bunnies. Mainly because the "fossil" chemical systems the preceded it are very good food for millions of microbes the planet over. These are fossils we aren't going to "dig up" with any ease!

Quote
Also, what is the current state of the art for PNA ligation? (I have never studied this in depth, although one of the labs we use does more normal DNA cloning and I am familiar with the methodology)


No clue! Not a field I've done any research in and sonly something I know the basics about. I can also try to dig something out next week. Remind me! Don't let me forget because I've finished the report with the patent boys that has kept me chained to a PC (YUCK BLECH) for weeks and I can now be back in lab playing with carcinogens and chemical weapons (one of the precursors in some chemistry I was doing a few months back was something used by the Germans in WW1 to gas punters. It's actually really innocuous compared to the other stuff I use, but it's always amusing to have to explain to your boss why you are ordering a chemical weapon: "Erm well, my neighbours have this fucking dog....")

Hope some of that helps.

Louis

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Bye.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,17:41   

I will simply point out, once again, that Thaxton (or indeed, ANY creationist or IDer) has put forth NO arguments against abiogenesis.  None.  Zip.  Zero.  Zilch.  Nada.  Not a single one.

All they have done is parrot arguments that SCIENTISTS have made.

That, after all, is how science is done.

Sorry, Paley, that science doesn't have all the answers with absolutre certainty.  After all, that's why scientists still have jobs.

But, ignoring Paley's trolling (once again), I will simply point out that ID/creationists have contributed nothing at all whatsoever to describing the current problems in abiogenesis models, or in any sort of research to answer those questions.  Nothing.  At all.  Zip.  Zero.  Zilch.  Not a goddamn thing.

Not surprising, since ID/creationists (and Paley, too) don't give a rat's ass about science.  (shrug)

--------------
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Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,17:56   

I agree the topic is interesting--in the extreme!--and I certainly wouldn't mind if Louis and others wanted to elucidate the latest efforts by actual scientists.

But I have zero interest in proceeding from a basis of the "hurdles" alleged by a couple of flaccid CreaIDiots.

Or of listening to Paley drone on and on.

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,18:58   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Dec. 08 2006,14:25)
 
Quote
**EDIT** This is Louis' answer to your question:
       
Quote
Another point to note is that it is assumed by the troll that the creationists have some genuine criticisms which need answering when they don't (as any tiny quantity of knowledge of the subjects in hand demonstrates). Also of note is the fact that, despite calling the troll's behaviour as it is (which is a distraction from any scientific topic other than aberrant psychology), there have been examples of key mechanisms and pointers to the lit and groups working in the area from both myself  and Dr GH and these have been ignored. Yet another data point in evidence that this is another troll bullshit saga.



In other words:

1) "We've got the answers";

2) "Here are a few links";

3) "You're a troll for even asking these questions. The evidence is there. We won't show you where, but it's out there. Trust us."

Sorry, that won't cut it. Can't you answer the questions in your own words, or at least quote from one one of those sources that the good doctors link too? Because if the answers are in their sources, it shouldn't be hard to find, should it?

Because Louis would never literature bluff, correct?

Here are the questions again:

     
Quote
Is there experimental evidence or thermodynamic calculations in the literature that demonstrate that mineral catalysis can overcome the configurational entropy hurdles that Thaxton and Bradley mention? Or is there something wrong with their formulae? If there is, could you point out where they go wrong? Thanks.

No. I did point out Louis's answer. The answer would be that creationist crap needs to enter science the same way science crap enters science.

No need to answer the questions (Although Louis did in his last post) because they fail the first test: Is it a ligitimate question.

Had you asked simply your last question, someone could have answered you. But dragging it out of you is painful.

Anyway, fascinating topic.

Louis,

That was me rather than ogee you were responding to but thank you. I suppose I might have sounded a little defensive about the biologist bit. You'd be surprised how many folks come around here saying things like that with a, how shouold I say, less than fun attitude. I just smile and thank them for their input. If I remember correctly, even davescot once said that biologists were list makers or some such thing. Secretaries maybe. I didn't place you in that company and I do understand your point. The research really is fascinating.
 
Quote
In terms of developing systems which do the things we want to explore like self replication, that's standard chemistry type research. Pinpointing the specific path taken from molecules to man as it were, apart from being nigh in impossible,  is precisely trying to engineer without a schematic, or indeed any idea of which things happened in which order. But hey, it keeps me in a job!

I assume you mean "molecules to blue green algae"?  :) (to keep the biologists happy)

--------------
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When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
skeptic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,20:05   

Louis, I love seeing you in your element.  Here's something I ran across today that raises (I think) more questions than it answers.  Personally I love that!

RNA-Heredity Molecule?

By the way, I'd personally like to thank GoP for the thread.  I'd sortof forgotten about PNAs and after he brought it up I went back and did some reading last night.  Fascinating stuff.  I have some reservations but they actually apply to both RNA and PNA, as I've stated before I'm an advocate of "the protein world" but it's still great stuff.

  
skeptic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,20:11   

BWE, you know there always been an unconscious (or conscious) attitude from chemists about biologists.  I remember well having to carry many biologists through organic as an undergrad and there was always the light-hearted banter associated with it.  But just to make you feel a bit better I'm sure the physicists felt the same about us chemists.  :D

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,20:58   

Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 08 2006,20:05)
Louis, I love seeing you in your element.  Here's something I ran across today that raises (I think) more questions than it answers.  Personally I love that!

RNA-Heredity Molecule?

By the way, I'd personally like to thank GoP for the thread.  I'd sortof forgotten about PNAs and after he brought it up I went back and did some reading last night.  Fascinating stuff.  I have some reservations but they actually apply to both RNA and PNA, as I've stated before I'm an advocate of "the protein world" but it's still great stuff.

How about TNA's?

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skeptic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,22:04   

I'm not sure that TNAs actually reduce the complexity of the molecule to any great degree.  Maybe they provide a clue if there was incremental steps between primitive molecules and nucleic acids but I honestly don't know much about them so I can not really say.  My main sticking point is still, outside of the limited catalytic properties of RNA, the nucleic acids are still largely acted upon by enzymes.  This still makes the proteins a better candidate for the initial self-replicator, in my mind.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2006,05:05   

BWE,

ARGHHHHHH!!!

My most sincere and humble apologies. Ayee, what a maroon I am! Brain was clearly not engaged, gob opened first. My bad. Lordy, I seem to have unwittingly tapped into a personal source of inner tard! Never a good thing. I shall rush off after this post and beat myself with a copy of Stryer (ok it's biochem, gimme a break) forthwith, if not fifthwith.

For the record, I absolutely categorically have no problem with biologists/biology in any way shape or form. In fact I am seriously considering changing field and becoming a biologist (I've made enquiries with an evolutionary biologist mate of mine, what will come of it is a different matter). Anyone who says biology is stamp collecting or naming stuff or secretarial work a) has never done any biology, b) is a seriously deluded wanker without clue or ability to find clue, c) if a scientist of any stripe, is probably a physicist who has never had sex with a girl, for the reasons mentioned in previous post. After all some of those chem/physics duel majors I TAd had acne you could hear!

Personally I don't find the Ancient Greek demarkation between fields of study to be useful in any intellectual sense, merely a conversational one. I've always said I'm a scientist who happens to be focussed on chemistry rather than a chemist who is interested in broader science. I have to admit I've never understood those of my colleagues for whom this is just a job. I'm an intolerant bastard, sue me!

There was an article in Nature (I think) by George Whitesides and others a while ago about "what chemists want" and of all the "big questions" that chemists needed to answer the one that everyone would really recognise is the origin of life. It's such a massively multidisciplinary area that one narrow group of punters aren't going to be enough. Geochemists and astrochemists need to discover relevant chemicals in the universe (and have done) even discovering processes that initial organic polymerisation and other reactions(and they have done) and pick out the  well hidden fossil traces of early life (and they have done).  Astrobiologists and evolutionary biologists and cell biologists and microbiologists and biochemists need to figure out which pathways and chemistry is essential to modern life (and they have done). Synthetic chemists need to look for the clues in the chemistry and biochemistry of secondary metabolites (not really being done yet, this is my idea, shhhhhh keep it under your hat! ) and need to develop reactions that can mimic key biological processes (definitely done, A LOT. #### we can improve on some processes) and need to actually try to recreate prebiotic chemistry at every level (done in every area, but we still don't know what did happen, just what could). Oh dear I've come over all girly and excited again...

As for the TNA that Lenny and Skeptic mention, ypu fascinating area of enquiry. Still comparitively high tech to some self replicating systems, and given the preponderance of simple amino acids in prebiotic chemistry their certainly a possible candidate. Unlike Skeptic I'd guess that proteins are still far too high tech to be the Ur-replicator.

My guess would be for something far simpler. For example, look at the systems of Rebek and coworkers (sorry there's no point linking the articles they're proper lit for subscribers anyway. I might, if I get a chance, draw a few things up on chemdraw next week and post the pics.). The point is that we don't need to go as high tech as known biopolymers or their analogues to find self replicating molecules. Yet again my old favourite of the Soai reaction is a  good example of one of the necessary processes for self replication: autocatalysis (the product catalyses it's own formation. The story is a little more complicated as you can read in Donna Blackmond's paper below). A couple of PNAS articles on the Soai Reaction:

Here and here.

I just did a quick google for Rebek's work (I only know him from the lit. I forget google when it comes to real science, which can a bit of a sin. When you have Scifinder and Beilstein you forget that Google is your friend). Below are some links that people might be able to get access. This is all really off the cuff so for the real deal wait until I'm back at work next week.

Abstract 1, Abstract 2, Broad article about self replication, Wikipedia on Rebek.

Hope these whet people's appetites.

Louis

P.S. Being accused of "literature bluffing" (what the fuck is that??) by the troll nearly made me fall of my chair laughing. What a totally pointless wanker that troll is. Only turds like the troll need to bluff, some of us know what we're talking about. As has been demonstrated on every thread and every topic dammit! Aieee why is my life cluttered with wazzarks, trolls and fundamentalists?

P.P.S. Lenny I presume you meant TNA rather than T 'n' A? ;-)

--------------
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Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2006,05:34   

Skeptic,

Quote
My main sticking point is still, outside of the limited catalytic properties of RNA, the nucleic acids are still largely acted upon by enzymes.  This still makes the proteins a better candidate for the initial self-replicator, in my mind.


Stick no further, no one has ever proposed that "modern, high tech" nucleic acids found in biological systems are anything like the Ur-replicator. RNA is only a possible mid candidate because it requires less effector molecules. Your lack of ability to imagine intermediates, or the lack of current exact systems does not constitute evidence, nor does it make skepticism about abiogenesis reasoned or reasonable.

Quote
Louis, I love seeing you in your element.  Here's something I ran across today that raises (I think) more questions than it answers.  Personally I love that!

RNA-Heredity Molecule?

By the way, I'd personally like to thank GoP for the thread.  I'd sortof forgotten about PNAs and after he brought it up I went back and did some reading last night.  Fascinating stuff.  I have some reservations but they actually apply to both RNA and PNA, as I've stated before I'm an advocate of "the protein world" but it's still great stuff.


And what does that article have to do with anything other than RNA can carry heritable information (which we already knew btw). More questions than it answers is great, but this is almost supremely irrelevant to prebiotic chemistry.  RNA world, PNA world, TNA world, Protein world are possible high tech intermediates en route. The chemistry doesn't need to be even remotely that complex, and the substrates don't need to be anywhere near that complex for self replicating systems, autocatalytic systems, or polymeric systems to develop without "biology".

Louis

P.S. Don't thank the troll. Mind you I'm not surprised you do. Birds of an irrational feather.... He's playing silly buggers, never think for a second that the troll is being honest. He isn't. The troll hasn't managed honesty once yet, why should anyone expect that the troll is even capable of such a feat? The troll started this thread because he knew I lack anything remotely resembling the self control not to comment. I still think the troll needs to go. Good trolls are useful. Bad trolls are annoying. Your pose as a "scientific" skeptic regarding evolution etc is an excellent case in point. When I discuss quantum physics or evolutionary biology, subjects I don't work in but have some experience and interest in, guess what? I don't bother to discuss them with "skeptics" like you and the troll. What's the point? I discuss them with people who actually know something about them, and who actually work in them. Then and only then do I start looking for problems, new ideas, areas to explore etc. I'm rarely disappointed. Usually all the holes I can think of have been plugged before I got there, occasionally not, and those are the bits that get/got me/a friend funding! That's science baby, not pricking about with the asinine witterings of trolls, the fundamentally ignorant, or the deliberately dishonest and deluded.

Louis

--------------
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Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2006,05:59   

All,

As I think of it, the issue that really bugs me whenever this topic comes up, is what do those with a "problem" (read religious predisposition to bullshit and obfuscate and piss about) with abiogenesis. What do these people think "life" is? Are viruses "alive"? Prions? What does being "alive" mean? Why do people see the need to inject this red herring of a demarkation between a rock and a pig? Both are chemical systems, one is more complex than another, but chop them both up and you won't find one atom of "life".

Ok so I am being slightly facecious about this. "Life" is a degree of organised complexity and complex adaptivity that is destroyed by such chopping up. Why insert supernatural souls and claim an elan vitale when no such thing exists (demonstrably). Wohler did away with this crap before Darwin came along. Why do people insist on these antique vitalist notions?

This is why abiogenesis is a "sticking point" (blech) for so many, because people have decided before encountering the evidence that life is a special super dooper extra banana non naturalistic god given pressie from the great super fairy in the sky that watches you masturbate. Couple that with the "ghost in the machine" illusions we pretty much all have (me included) and the hugely culturally enshrined aspects of the belief that there is a homunculus behind your eyes working the controls, and you have a huge burden of bullshit to shift.

Louis

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Chris Hyland



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2006,07:49   

I do find it quite ironic that creationists thin the gap between life and non-life is much larger than I do yet they think we can make inferences about evolution by equating living things with manmade contraptions.

  
lkeithlu



Posts: 321
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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2006,08:06   

Forgive my boldness in commenting here:

When a scientist makes a statement and another scientist evaluates that statement, I find it unbelievable that non-scientists insist on taking sides based only on the issue, and get huffy when said scientists cannot dumb it down enough to make it understandable to them so that they can join in the debate. If these were questions accessible to laypeople, then laypeople would be doing the science. I have a (25 year old) BS in Chemistry and some Geology and have been teaching sciences for 25 years, and although I can get the general gist of the thermodynamic obstacles and understand some of the terms, there is NO WAY I could ever pass judgement on any of the details. I have to be able to trust consensus science to pass judgement on these issues.

This is only one example of many; it is the same for all aspects of science including paleontology, historical geology, physical anthropology, climate science, the list is endless. I think this is one of the biggest problems we face-a democratic America cannot conceive of situations where THEIR opinion does not carry equal weight. Add to that the dismal state of scientific literacy (in part because people like me, science educators, clearly aren't doing what we need to do) and you have a nation that thinks science is a "belief" system. Shoot, they think justice is also a "belief" system, after all, on CNN.com you can vote whether or not OJ "did it" and somehow that determines what is true.

Sorry to rant- please continue with your regularly scheduled thread....

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2006,08:59   

Quote (Louis @ Dec. 09 2006,05:05)
P.P.S. Lenny I presume you meant TNA rather than T 'n' A? ;-)

Well, I do have a high interest level in both.

:)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
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