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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 2, general discussion of Dembski's site< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,08:58   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-294972

Meeeoooow

Quote
34

DaveScot

08/29/2008

8:47 am
Jack

We all understood the math behind both answers. Some of us knew more than just the math. Some of us knew about complementary pair bonding between amino acids and how this works in determining whether any given miRNA sequence will bind with any given mRNA sequence. Order of the bases is critical. Your presumption that it made no difference was categorically wrong. Take this as a lesson and in the future don’t presume that people opposed to ID must know more about molecular biology than those who do not oppose it. Evidently 10_3_3 is just throwing around technical buzzwords he reads in the literature which might work to convince people like you he knows what’s he talking about but falls flat on its face with those of us better informed.


magic, bitter stuff.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,09:12   

Quote (Jkrebs @ Aug. 29 2008,08:53)
Uh, Jack's calculation took n = 4 because there are four bases to choose from.  Why would n be anything different?

Well, Heddle is a physicist and those guys don't have the biologists dogmatic resistance to adding new things.  Just look at how they keep making up sub-atomic particles.  

I hear that Heddle is working on a hypothesis that will supplant the idea that gluons hold together the atomic nucleus.  Apparently, Dave believes that it is actually held together by a flexible membrane that surrounds the nucleus.  His working name for this membrane is pullon.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,09:18   

Heads up, proof for a 6000 year old earth has been discovered!

Do nuclear decay rates depend on our distance from the sun?

Well, ok maybe not proof as such, but no doubt AIG and the YEC crowd at UD will have a field day and spin it up into "doubts about decay rates leave the door open for a young earth".

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Venus Mousetrap



Posts: 201
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,09:28   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Aug. 29 2008,09:18)
Heads up, proof for a 6000 year old earth has been discovered!

Do nuclear decay rates depend on our distance from the sun?

Well, ok maybe not proof as such, but no doubt AIG and the YEC crowd at UD will have a field day and spin it up into "doubts about decay rates leave the door open for a young earth".

Ha, don't you worry, we're on top of him. He'll be expelled from the scientific community faster than you can say 'Adolf'. Then we can get back to, um, worshiping the null god. Or Darwin. I forget which.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,09:47   

Quote (Jkrebs @ Aug. 29 2008,08:53)
Uh, Jack's calculation took n = 4 because there are four bases to choose from.  Why would n be anything different?

How did it take into account n = 4? Your calculation was 8!/(4!*3!*1!) = 280 with the 4, 3, and 1 coming from 4C, 3T,  and 1A.  But n = 4 refers to the fact that there are four possible pick 'ems: {G, C, T, A}. Your calculation couldn't care less that "G" exists, thus it does not take into account n = 4.

Edit: typo.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,09:48   

GPuccio's Spider Teleology
Quote
But, in the end, I really feel that love for variety, for form and for creativity remains the main motivation of variation at a specific level of complexity, while the need to express new functions is probably the main motivation for the big increases in complexity which we can observe at higher taxonomic levels.


Though perhaps "love of variation" is trying to express an idea that sexual selection in spiders leads to a love of fashionable change. This could fit into a YEC motivated view of hyperactive evolution after the Flood. But why am I doing their work for them?

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Jkrebs



Posts: 590
Joined: Sep. 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,09:52   

You're right, dheddle.  My calculation is just for the number of ways of arranging 4 x's, 3 y's and 1 z, irrespective of the set from which the x, y and z were taken.  This doesn't change the fact that my calculation is correct for the situation as stated.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,10:40   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Aug. 29 2008,09:48)
GPuccio's Spider Teleology  
Quote
But, in the end, I really feel that love for variety, for form and for creativity remains the main motivation of variation at a specific level of complexity, while the need to express new functions is probably the main motivation for the big increases in complexity which we can observe at higher taxonomic levels.


Though perhaps "love of variation" is trying to express an idea that sexual selection in spiders leads to a love of fashionable change. This could fit into a YEC motivated view of hyperactive evolution after the Flood. But why am I doing their work for them?

Teh Designer is manic?





Perhaps

The devil is certainly in the details

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,10:57   

Quote (Maya @ Aug. 29 2008,05:11)
[...] having to use a calculator to find out that 4^8 (2^16) is 65536 -- a number every software geek has memorized?
[...]

I resemble that remark :p

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:01   

Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 29 2008,11:57)
Quote (Maya @ Aug. 29 2008,05:11)
[...] having to use a calculator to find out that 4^8 (2^16) is 65536 -- a number every software geek has memorized?
[...]

I resemble that remark :p

Dang, now everyone knows my password!

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:05   

Quote (Jkrebs @ Aug. 29 2008,10:52)
You're right, dheddle.  My calculation is just for the number of ways of arranging 4 x's, 3 y's and 1 z, irrespective of the set from which the x, y and z were taken.  This doesn't change the fact that my calculation is correct for the situation as stated.

Heddle was considering the case of x = Bill Buckner, which introduces a baseball sized probability distortion field into the calculations.

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:48   

Ah, finally molecular biology again. This is so exciting that I post it here before my comments make it through the moderation at UD:  
Quote
Some of us knew more than just the math. Some of us knew about complementary pair bonding between amino acids and how this works in determining whether any given miRNA sequence will bind with any given mRNA sequence.
Hope such results of design research will be included in Dembski's next text book.

 
Quote
 
Quote
MicroRNA regulate protein production in a process known as base pairing – in which complementary codes found on microRNA bind to the corresponding mRNAs much like a lock and key. This process leads to inhibition of protein translation and, in some cases, to degradation of the mRNA itself.
Thus the order of the amino acid sequence is indeed critical.
Don't ask me why programs like miRanda and miRacle search 3'-UTRs for miRNA targets only.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
PTET



Posts: 133
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,12:20   

Denyse gets all sciency...
Quote
These findings generally support the non-materialist view that human consciousness is not a slowly evolving thing. Once present, it changes everything very quickly. Assuming otherwise leads to mistakes about early humans.

Oh - my mistake - it's the usual magic crap.

"Non-materialist"? What the frick does that mean? Is she for real?

I loved this bit:  
Quote
The textbook belief was in fact based on the now-rotting Tree of Life popularized by Darwin and his modern-day followers. They assumed that modern humans (homo sapiens) were “superior” to the Neanderdumbsters, and interpreted all facts about the latter to fit that view.

Oh noes!!!!eleventy!one!1!

Scientific opinion changes as new evidence is found.

Film at 11.

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"It’s not worth the effort to prove the obvious. Ridiculous ideas don’t deserve our time.
Even the attempt to formulate ID is a generous accommodation." - ScottAndrews

   
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,12:29   

Quote
Neanderdumbsters


Is that something like a midden?

/Archaeology humor
.
.
.
.
.
I'll get my coat.

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The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,12:35   

Quote (C.J.O'Brien @ Aug. 29 2008,10:29)
Quote
Neanderdumbsters


Is that something like a midden?

/Archaeology humor
.
.
.
.
.
I'll get my coat.

I'm still partial to 'Neanderfuck'.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,12:47   

yeah arden, i heard you were.  

PTET the money shot is above the part you quoted:

Quote
I suggest that the next step should be this: Two groups of daring researchers should live for two decades in the manner assumed by the textbooks to be our ancestors’ way of life 50 000 years ago. Some will be saps and others ‘thals. The only rule would be, no felony offenses against humans because then the work would be eligible for publication only as a signed confession. But the researchers should report when they think that a felony offense would occur back then. I wonder how long it would last? What they would learn? How many researchers would come back alive? It’s one thing to report that the ‘thal tools were more efficient, but another to feed and clothe oneself with them.


Tranny Tard, no one cares what you suggest except for us, and that is because we are laughing at you.  Lemme know when you are ready to do the experiment.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,13:04   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Aug. 29 2008,10:47)
yeah arden, i heard you were.  

PTET the money shot is above the part you quoted:

 
Quote
I suggest that the next step should be this: Two groups of daring researchers should live for two decades in the manner assumed by the textbooks to be our ancestors’ way of life 50 000 years ago. Some will be saps and others ‘thals. The only rule would be, no felony offenses against humans because then the work would be eligible for publication only as a signed confession. But the researchers should report when they think that a felony offense would occur back then. I wonder how long it would last? What they would learn? How many researchers would come back alive? It’s one thing to report that the ‘thal tools were more efficient, but another to feed and clothe oneself with them.

The truly painful part about this is that she thinks she's being funny.

Well, I guess she is, just not 'ha-ha funny'.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,13:22   

I propose an experiment whereby she removes her head from her bottom and gets to look at reality - will she note how little supernatural is really going on?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,13:26   

Quote (PTET @ Aug. 29 2008,12:20)
Denyse gets all sciency...    
Quote
These findings generally support the non-materialist view that human consciousness is not a slowly evolving thing. Once present, it changes everything very quickly. Assuming otherwise leads to mistakes about early humans.

Oh - my mistake - it's the usual magic crap.

"Non-materialist"? What the frick does that mean? Is she for real?

Non-materialist is what they call themselves so that members of their secretive club can identify each other, but no one else will catch on to the fact that they are all just fundamentalist Christians.

In fact, I snuck behind the scenes at UD and, at great peril, liberated this picture of Denyse and Davescot hanging out together in the ID tree fort.



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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,13:31   

Quote
It’s one thing to report that the ‘thal tools were more efficient, but another to feed and clothe oneself with them.

And yet another to report that Neanderthal tools were "more efficient" having just quoted the authors as stating "there was no statistical difference between the efficiency of the two technologies."

C'mon Denyse, strike that spark of consciousness before you write.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,14:43   

Continuing the trend of not being able to distinguish one thing from another, Dave offers this:
   
Quote
Is “Darwinism” a term only used by creationists?

DaveScot

Well, either the people behind the trade journal Genome Research are creationists or the term is used by everyone else too.

He confuses weather and climate, and models for reality. Now he has managed to mix up a few people with everyone.

I suppose Dave also thinks this is eight inches:



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,14:52   

So *that's* how he's 6 foot tall!

edited to add Dave Heddle is a gap-toothed gypsy.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,14:56   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 29 2008,14:52)
edited to add Dave Heddle is a gap-toothed gypsy.

You really do have a man-crush on Heddle, don't you?  Everyone knows that NASCAR fans don't have enough teeth for gaps to even exist*, so you are showering him with high praise.

* Actual gameshow trivia question:
Q: What do you call 32 NASCAR fans standing in a circle?
A: A full set of teeth.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,14:59   

It's a bro-mance.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
steve_h



Posts: 544
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,15:07   

I'm a bit baffled by all of these calcuations.  One group is calculating the probability of an exact sequence of 8 bases starting at a particular location.  Another person is allowing the sequence to run backwards or forwards and starting within a particular 8-base range. Another is arguing the probability of 4 objects of one kind, 3 of another and one of another to form a particular sequence at random.  Which is the most relevant calculation?  Would a calculation showing a particular eight character sequence somewhere in a chain of n-thousand also be applicable?

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,15:32   

Who the hell told this woman Denyse O'Leary that she was a "journalist?" She takes a Science Daily article that is simply a rehash of the U. of Exeter press release and then spins it into dross.

Her thread asks rhetorically " But who had decided that the Neanderthals were dumb in the first place?" --

Well, dumbass Denyse, it was Rudolph Virchow, a virulent "anti-Darwinist" who despised evolution and instead embraced the Naturphilosophie of Schelling while fighting against the acceptance of ANY idea of evolution or any comparisons/relatedness between  Neanders and Anatomically Modern Humans (H. sapiens sapiens) until his death in 1902.

It was Virchow who first "officially" declared that Neander remains were "pathological" and indicative of low intelligence.

Erik Trinkhaus, in his textbook-level work "The Neanderthals" puts it this way:
 
Quote
"How is it Virchow can have denied his eyes, in an ultimate betrayal of his long-held credo of honesty and adhering to the evidence at all costs? ..Most important was Virchows blanket belief in the immutability of species and organisms"


----------
Another amusing note in Denyse O'leary's thread o' tard is her little fantasy about pitting "researchers" (read : evolutionists ) against each other with Mousterian Levallois discoidal core-flakes and Middle Paleo sapiens sapiens blades.

Yeah, no bitterness or stupidity there, right?

-----------

Then we have this amusing end-note from the typing halfwit that is Denyse O'Leary:

 
Quote
Densey writes: " These findings generally support the non-materialist view that human consciousness is not a slowly evolving thing. Once present, it changes everything very quickly. Assuming otherwise leads to mistakes about early humans."


Okay, let's examine that...remember that Densey is taking the position that this study shows something that she is assuming: that consciousness doesn't evolve slowly, right?



Well, here's the problem: while the Mousterian disc-flakes studied  MAY have been comparable to Middle Paleo blades... THE NEANDER TOOL KIT NEVER REALLY CHANGES AT ALL UP TO THE END OF THE NEANDERS.

So, if consciousness moves quickly -- why didn't the Neander tool kit ever significantly change over the course of tens of thousands of years?

Certainly the H. sapiens sapiens toolkits did, O Dense One ...moving from the simple Perigordian blades to Aurignacian and *magnificent* Solutrean tools and finally Magdalenian stone and bone tools (like harpoons) that far surpassed anything ever produced by Neanders in terms of both basal utility and specialized functions.



The kicker for me is this: the Exeter study ONLY LOOKED AT A FEW CRITERIA: "the team analysed the data to compare the number of tools produced, how much cutting-edge was created, the efficiency in consuming raw material and how long tools lasted "

For Densey to leap to HER conclusions from that study's PRESS RELEASE...is indicative of how truly dull she is, not to mention incompetent in terms of actually researching the subject and data.

But then...hey, she's at home with the incompetents at UD.

An on that note -- here's a shout-out to one of her lessers at UD :

yo, Dave "Scooter" Scot - Springer -- Denyse O'Leary has more "juice" (pull, status, power) with Dembski than YOU, you frikkin' halfling? Yeah, THAT dullard has rank over you, Marine-boy.

Got that? Write it down, BOY!! :D :D :D      
-----------





Edited by Lou FCD on Aug. 31 2008,20:16

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,16:17   

My French is lousy but doesn't the French title "Du cerveau à Dieu" of DO'L's "The Spiritual Brain" mean something like

"From brain to God"?

In contrast the Dutch version is just translated:

"Het spirituele brein"

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,18:43   

Quote (sparc @ Aug. 29 2008,16:17)
My French is lousy but doesn't the French title "Du cerveau à Dieu" of DO'L's "The Spiritual Brain" mean something like

"From brain to God"?

Yes it does.
Where does this lousy translation come from?

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,23:04   

Quote (jeannot @ Aug. 30 2008,02:43)
Quote (sparc @ Aug. 29 2008,16:17)
My French is lousy but doesn't the French title "Du cerveau à Dieu" of DO'L's "The Spiritual Brain" mean something like

"From brain to God"?

Yes it does.
Where does this lousy translation come from?

Incorrect colloquial English, that back translation should be

"From (our) Brain comes God."

In DaveTards case, since he is only aware of taste of the next cheezy poof, it should be.

"From (my) Tastebud comes God."


In "ID for the truly cluess(buy my book)" D'Ol it should be

"From (my) Vanity Press comes God."

In "Watercloset or Waterloo? De-Nile and Darwinism" (One man's journey to Dover and home again without firing a shot) Dembski it should be

"From going nowhere fast (and being B. Forrest's roadkill)comes God."

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,23:13   

Quote (jeannot @ Aug. 30 2008,02:43)
Quote (sparc @ Aug. 29 2008,16:17)
My French is lousy but doesn't the French title "Du cerveau à Dieu" of DO'L's "The Spiritual Brain" mean something like

"From brain to God"?

Yes it does.
Where does this lousy translation come from?

And of course remembering Flyblow Dave ....Portuguese is half French and Spanish.

So the Portuguese title should be

"Da cerveja vem o Deus"

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
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