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forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,15:24   

Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,11:39)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,01:09)
Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,01:35)
 
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 02 2011,22:49)
Charles Darwin once said " We do not know the ancestors of the Vendian faunas well, and like the Cambrian biota it appeared suddenly in a "complete state" .

Where and when did he say this?

My library is all packed up at the moment up but I am pretty sure you will find your answer in the following

Mikhail Fedonkin, "Vendian body fossils and trace fossils," in S. Bengston, ed., Early Life on Earth. Nobel Symposium No. 84 (New York: Columbia University Press, 1993), pp. 370-388; p. 388.

Thanks, forastero.  So Darwin talked about the biota (first known use of this word: 1901) of the Vendian (1952), in a book published in 1993.  

When did Darwin die?

Yeah, its called a citation

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,15:26   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,15:24)
Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,11:39)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,01:09)
 
Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,01:35)
 
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 02 2011,22:49)
Charles Darwin once said " We do not know the ancestors of the Vendian faunas well, and like the Cambrian biota it appeared suddenly in a "complete state" .

Where and when did he say this?

My library is all packed up at the moment up but I am pretty sure you will find your answer in the following

Mikhail Fedonkin, "Vendian body fossils and trace fossils," in S. Bengston, ed., Early Life on Earth. Nobel Symposium No. 84 (New York: Columbia University Press, 1993), pp. 370-388; p. 388.

Thanks, forastero.  So Darwin talked about the biota (first known use of this word: 1901) of the Vendian (1952), in a book published in 1993.  

When did Darwin die?

Yeah, its called a citation

But I thought your library was packed up?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,15:34   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 03 2011,14:12)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,13:16)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 03 2011,09:32)
 
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 02 2011,04:11)
 
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 23 2011,18:24)
I'm very curious, forastero, how you deal with similar developmental issues in organisms that do not have endocrine systems... since they are the great majority of live on the planet.

What do you mean? Even insects and earthworms are known to have an endocrine system; and we are only recently finding out things about Prokaryote cognition communication, learning, coorperation, cell-surface sensory organs, hormones etc

So, you are saying that bacteria have an endocrine system.

That's very interesting.  How many glands do bacteria have?  Where are they?  I didn't notice huge masses of tissues producing hormones the last time I looked at a bacteria.

Again, you claim is that the "Endocrine system selects the phenotype".

You entire evidence is... it could be?  Really.

I'm saying bacteria  could very well have a homologous system

A bacterial hormone (the SCB1) directly controls the expression of a pathway-specific regulatory gene in the cryptic type I polyketide biosynthetic gene cluster of Streptomyces coelicolor.
[URL=http://www.mendeley.com/research/bacterial-hormone-scb1-directly-controls-expression-pathwayspecific-regulatory-gene-crypti


c-type-i-polyketide-biosynthetic-gene-cluster-streptomyces-coelicolor/]http://www.mendeley.com/researc....licolor[/URL]

Phenotypic plasticity is the process by which all groups of plants and animals modify their development, physiology, growth, and behavior in response to environmental stimuli (Crespi et al 2004). Hormones play a key role in switching on phenotypic expressions. One of my favorite examples is where hormones diffuse into cells where they can bind to hormone receptors at specific DNA targets. This receptor activation within the nucleus results in the transcription of mRNA and the synthesis of new proteins (West-Eberhard 2005). In other words, God has given us a miraculous survival tool. You will hear the media and academia shout mutations but bacteria only constantly adapt and do not change into anything other than bacteria. Same goes with any other critter

You said...

"Endocrine system determines phenotype"

Do you still support that claim or not?  If you do, then evidence has been asked for several times and now, once more.

Further, I note that you have not acted in good faith, I answered your question, quite thoroughly I might add (and in my own words), you have not yet done so.

Finally, I would like to point out that the BURIAL EVENT probably did occur in seconds.  It's called a landslide.  I'm sure you can find a video of one on youtube.

However, the landslide (even if underwater on the continental shelf) burial event is NOT the Cambrian Explosion.  That is the surge in diversity that occurred over the Cambrian Period, which lasted for about 50 million years... I believe I have already given sufficient evidence for the dating of the Cambrian.

Your turn... I would appreciate answers to my questions now.  Thanks.

I am glad we agree that the Cambrian fossils were buried quickly by a great calamity but when scientists talk about Cambrian explosions, they are not referring to the burial part.

A genotype’s Polyphenisms are the reaction norms that are selected across a range of environments by the very flexible and dynamic endocrine system but in accord to it’s cell’s epigenetic code.  

The endocrine system interacts with the immune and nervous systems to select, regulate, control, activate, program, reorginize, transduce ,disrupt, turn on, turn off, binds to DNA receceptors, modify nucleotide bases, splice, edit,  transcribe, acquire, learn, memorize, Imprint, methylate, demethylate, canalise, deacylate, acetylate etc etc etc….

From Darwin to Dawkins, evolutionists have always tried to suppress the idea of non-random biological events because it suggested theism. In your own fervor to deny purposeful selection, you have willfully conformed to the dogma of materialistic randomness of super-race Mother Nature Selection   preached to you by the slave trade schools of Anthropology and racists eugenics.

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,15:35   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 03 2011,15:26)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,15:24)
Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,11:39)
 
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,01:09)
 
Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,01:35)
   
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 02 2011,22:49)
Charles Darwin once said " We do not know the ancestors of the Vendian faunas well, and like the Cambrian biota it appeared suddenly in a "complete state" .

Where and when did he say this?

My library is all packed up at the moment up but I am pretty sure you will find your answer in the following

Mikhail Fedonkin, "Vendian body fossils and trace fossils," in S. Bengston, ed., Early Life on Earth. Nobel Symposium No. 84 (New York: Columbia University Press, 1993), pp. 370-388; p. 388.

Thanks, forastero.  So Darwin talked about the biota (first known use of this word: 1901) of the Vendian (1952), in a book published in 1993.  

When did Darwin die?

Yeah, its called a citation

But I thought your library was packed up?

Yeah I'm renovating

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,15:38   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,15:35)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 03 2011,15:26)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,15:24)
 
Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,11:39)
 
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,01:09)
   
Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,01:35)
   
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 02 2011,22:49)
Charles Darwin once said " We do not know the ancestors of the Vendian faunas well, and like the Cambrian biota it appeared suddenly in a "complete state" .

Where and when did he say this?

My library is all packed up at the moment up but I am pretty sure you will find your answer in the following

Mikhail Fedonkin, "Vendian body fossils and trace fossils," in S. Bengston, ed., Early Life on Earth. Nobel Symposium No. 84 (New York: Columbia University Press, 1993), pp. 370-388; p. 388.

Thanks, forastero.  So Darwin talked about the biota (first known use of this word: 1901) of the Vendian (1952), in a book published in 1993.  

When did Darwin die?

Yeah, its called a citation

But I thought your library was packed up?

Yeah I'm renovating

It's amazing that with the books all packed up you can remember the name and pages numbers of the appropriate sections. Designer be praised!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,15:43   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,13:24)
Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,11:39)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,01:09)
 
Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,01:35)
 
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 02 2011,22:49)
Charles Darwin once said " We do not know the ancestors of the Vendian faunas well, and like the Cambrian biota it appeared suddenly in a "complete state" .

Where and when did he say this?

My library is all packed up at the moment up but I am pretty sure you will find your answer in the following

Mikhail Fedonkin, "Vendian body fossils and trace fossils," in S. Bengston, ed., Early Life on Earth. Nobel Symposium No. 84 (New York: Columbia University Press, 1993), pp. 370-388; p. 388.

Thanks, forastero.  So Darwin talked about the biota (first known use of this word: 1901) of the Vendian (1952), in a book published in 1993.  

When did Darwin die?

Yeah, its called a citation

No, muppet, it's called a direct quotation: Charles Darwin once said...  Where and when?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,15:47   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 03 2011,14:23)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,13:16)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 03 2011,09:32)
 
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 02 2011,04:11)
 
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 23 2011,18:24)
I'm very curious, forastero, how you deal with similar developmental issues in organisms that do not have endocrine systems... since they are the great majority of live on the planet.

What do you mean? Even insects and earthworms are known to have an endocrine system; and we are only recently finding out things about Prokaryote cognition communication, learning, coorperation, cell-surface sensory organs, hormones etc

So, you are saying that bacteria have an endocrine system.

That's very interesting.  How many glands do bacteria have?  Where are they?  I didn't notice huge masses of tissues producing hormones the last time I looked at a bacteria.

Again, you claim is that the "Endocrine system selects the phenotype".

You entire evidence is... it could be?  Really.

I'm saying bacteria  could very well have a homologous system

A bacterial hormone (the SCB1) directly controls the expression of a pathway-specific regulatory gene in the cryptic type I polyketide biosynthetic gene cluster of Streptomyces coelicolor.
[URL=http://www.mendeley.com/research/bacterial-hormone-scb1-directly-controls-expression-pathwayspecific-regulatory-gene-crypti


c-type-i-polyketide-biosynthetic-gene-cluster-streptomyces-coelicolor/]http://www.mendeley.com/researc....licolor[/URL]

Phenotypic plasticity is the process by which all groups of plants and animals modify their development, physiology, growth, and behavior in response to environmental stimuli (Crespi et al 2004). Hormones play a key role in switching on phenotypic expressions. One of my favorite examples is where hormones diffuse into cells where they can bind to hormone receptors at specific DNA targets. This receptor activation within the nucleus results in the transcription of mRNA and the synthesis of new proteins (West-Eberhard 2005). In other words, God has given us a miraculous survival tool. You will hear the media and academia shout mutations but bacteria only constantly adapt and do not change into anything other than bacteria. Same goes with any other critter

Earth, Moon, and Stars.

This is NOT a change in PHENOTYPE.  This is the activation of a gene.  

OK, I think it now obvious to anyone who does know what's going on that you don't.

Again, I'd appreciate those questions answered.

Activations and deactivation are one of the ways that the endocrine system selects expressions of a gene's polyphenisms

"In polyphenic development, hormones control a switch between alternative developmental pathways so that individuals with identical genotypes can develop dramatically different phenotypes. The hormones that control polyphenic development (juvenile hormone, ecdysteroids, and a few neurohormones) are the same as those that control insect metamorphosis. Hence an understanding of the endocrine regulation of metamorphosis has proven essential for understanding the control of polyphenic developmental switches."

http://www.biology.duke.edu/nijhout....ism.htm

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,15:51   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 03 2011,15:38)
It's amazing that with the books all packed up you can remember the name and pages numbers of the appropriate sections. Designer be praised!

I have used the quote several times but didnt quote the original source. I will get the original source though for the many straw grabbers

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,15:56   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,14:49)
Hmm I am glad that we agree that animals don’t mutate into other classes of animals. And here I always thought Panda’s Thumb believed herbivorous pandas mutated from Ursines. I guess you would also say that herb eaters like afarensis or habilis didn’t mutate into meat eating homos? Come to think of it, the priest over at Nat. Geo. have been saying the vegi orangutan is genetically closer to meet eating homos than are chimps. Of course you don’t really believe that.

Interestingly, epigenetic plasticity does allow some animals to alter to or from strict carnivorous and herbivorous diets. You should read up on it sometime

You'll not very carefully what I said and didn't say.

I said that carnivores have carnassials and that artiodactyles have three stomachs.  

I said that no one, not even biologists expect mutations to change an artiodactyl into a carnivore (of the order carnivora).

Since then, you have changed your mind and now you want me to explain how the common ancestor of bears resulted in both pandas (which are effectively obligate herbivores) and polar bears (which are effectively obligate carnivores).

Do you see the difference in what you are saying?  I doubt it.

Your claim was for me to explain how mutations and natural selection could change orders of species.  This is exactly as I described it.  This is having an ancestral species that is an artidactyl, given time, will have descendants that are members of carnivora.  This is, of course, impossible.  It is extremely unlikely that all the traits of carnivores would arise in exactly the same way a second time, especially from an order that it already specialized in another direction (three stomachs, for example).

However, you have shifted the goalpost and are now demanding the evolutionary history of bears.  Note that even though the giant panda is almost an obligate herbivore, it STILL has the characteristics of the order carnivora (carnassials, a short intestinal tract (which is why it must eat so much, it's digestive system is very poor for the food it consimes), 4 toes per limb, etc).

Perhaps you should read, the evolutionary history of bears.  

Kemp, T.S. (2005). The Origin and Evolution of Mammals. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-850760-4.

Wang Banyue and Qiu Zhanxiang (2005). "Notes on Early Oligocene Ursids (Carnivora, Mammalia) from Saint Jacques, Nei Mongol, China" (PDF). Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History 279 (279): 116–124. doi:10.1206/0003-0090(2003)279<0116:C>2.0.CO;2.

Krause, J.; Unger, T.; Noçon, A.; Malaspinas, A.; Kolokotronis, S.; Stiller, M.; Soibelzon, L.; Spriggs, H.; Dear, P. H.; Briggs, A. W.; Bray, S. C. E.; O'Brien, S. J.; Rabeder, G.; Matheus, P.; Cooper, A.; Slatkin, M.; Pääbo, S.; Hofreiter, M. (2008-07-28). "Mitochondrial genomes reveal an explosive radiation of extinct and extant bears near the Miocene-Pliocene boundary". BMC Evolutionary Biology 8 (220): 220. doi:10.1186/1471-2148-8-220. PMC 2518930. PMID 18662376.

Soibelzon, L. H.; Tonni, E. P.; Bond, M. (October 2005). "The fossil record of South American short-faced bears (Ursidae, Tremarctinae)". Journal of South American Earth Sciences 20 (1–2): 105–113. doi:10.1016/j.jsames.2005.07.005.

Qiu Zhanxiang (2003). "Dispersals of Neogene Carnivorans between Asia and North America" (PDF). Bulletin American Museum of Natural History 279 (279): 18–31. doi:10.1206/0003-0090(2003)279<0018:C>2.0.CO;2.

Kurtén, B., 1995. The cave bear story: life and death of a vanished animal, Björn Kurtén, Columbia University Press

Or better yet, (here's another question you will chicken out on and not answer), what is your explanation for the apparent confusion here?  Why would a member of the order carnivora, with all the carnivore specializations, be eating plants?  Please explain with with specific references to the designer and why his designs make no sense.

Again, you make a claim, but do not back it up.  Citation please, specifically of this: "epigenetic plasticity does allow some animals to alter to or from strict carnivorous and herbivorous diets"

And please show EXACTLY how the phenotype changes.  I would expect that you not make the same mistake previously and say that activating a gene a change in phenotype.  At a minimum, I need the scientific paper reference.  I would really like a summary of the paper in your own words so that I know you understand this.

I'll just add these two to the list of questions you have yet to answer... here:

define homozygous
define heterozygous
describe the Cambrian explosion
define symmetry breaking (as relates to the begining of the universe)
define hyper-inflation
describe the endocrine notion of phenotype selection
define phenotype (include the other common -type and define that as well)
explain why you insist that evolution requires something that no scientist requires (fruit flies to dogs)
explain why you insist that evolution explain a process which cannot be affected by evolution (i.e. Origins of Life)
define species
show that mutation always results in the loss of genetic information (show the math and define information while you are at it)
evidence that the four fundamental forces of our universe change over time
Evidence that you understand when nucleosynthesis occurs with respect to the early universe.
Evidence that the magnetic field is weakening
Evidence that fruits and vegetables of today have lost large percentages of their mineral content over the last 50 years
Evidence that bones are becoming less dense.
[strike]Define robust in terms of early man.[/strike]
Show evidence that fossil man (define and give examples of) are less robust than modern man  (The Daily Mail is not peer-reviewed evidence and you have not cited evidence for other claims)
Show evidence of any other species that is less robust now than the same species in pre-historical time
Describe how you explain the diversity of order carnivora such that the same order contains obligate carnivores and obligate herbivores.  Relate this information to the information provided regarding the evolutionary history of these organisms (IOW: Let's compare what you say and what I say to the actual genes of these critters).
Provide a citation that shows how an environmental change causes a change in the phenotype that would allow an animal that is an obligate carnivore to change to an obligate herbivorous diet.
Provide a summary of the research in your own words.

This is quite a list and it will only get larger.  I suggest you start tackling it.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,16:05   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,15:47)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 03 2011,14:23)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,13:16)
 
Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 03 2011,09:32)
 
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 02 2011,04:11)
   
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 23 2011,18:24)
I'm very curious, forastero, how you deal with similar developmental issues in organisms that do not have endocrine systems... since they are the great majority of live on the planet.

What do you mean? Even insects and earthworms are known to have an endocrine system; and we are only recently finding out things about Prokaryote cognition communication, learning, coorperation, cell-surface sensory organs, hormones etc

So, you are saying that bacteria have an endocrine system.

That's very interesting.  How many glands do bacteria have?  Where are they?  I didn't notice huge masses of tissues producing hormones the last time I looked at a bacteria.

Again, you claim is that the "Endocrine system selects the phenotype".

You entire evidence is... it could be?  Really.

I'm saying bacteria  could very well have a homologous system

A bacterial hormone (the SCB1) directly controls the expression of a pathway-specific regulatory gene in the cryptic type I polyketide biosynthetic gene cluster of Streptomyces coelicolor.
[URL=http://www.mendeley.com/research/bacterial-hormone-scb1-directly-controls-expression-pathwayspecific-regulatory-gene-crypti



c-type-i-polyketide-biosynthetic-gene-cluster-streptomyces-coelicolor/]http://www.mendeley.com/researc....licolor[/URL]

Phenotypic plasticity is the process by which all groups of plants and animals modify their development, physiology, growth, and behavior in response to environmental stimuli (Crespi et al 2004). Hormones play a key role in switching on phenotypic expressions. One of my favorite examples is where hormones diffuse into cells where they can bind to hormone receptors at specific DNA targets. This receptor activation within the nucleus results in the transcription of mRNA and the synthesis of new proteins (West-Eberhard 2005). In other words, God has given us a miraculous survival tool. You will hear the media and academia shout mutations but bacteria only constantly adapt and do not change into anything other than bacteria. Same goes with any other critter

Earth, Moon, and Stars.

This is NOT a change in PHENOTYPE.  This is the activation of a gene.  

OK, I think it now obvious to anyone who does know what's going on that you don't.

Again, I'd appreciate those questions answered.

Activations and deactivation are one of the ways that the endocrine system selects expressions of a gene's polyphenisms

"In polyphenic development, hormones control a switch between alternative developmental pathways so that individuals with identical genotypes can develop dramatically different phenotypes. The hormones that control polyphenic development (juvenile hormone, ecdysteroids, and a few neurohormones) are the same as those that control insect metamorphosis. Hence an understanding of the endocrine regulation of metamorphosis has proven essential for understanding the control of polyphenic developmental switches."

http://www.biology.duke.edu/nijhout....ism.htm

You still aren't listening.

You said

"the endocrine system changes an organisms PHENOTYPE"

Evidence please.

Everything you are describing has NOTHING to do with the phenotype.  You are describing genes activating or deactivating based on environmental cues.

There is no one here that doubts this happens.

What you said though is completely different than what you are talking about.

When you get around to defining those things in your own words, then maybe we can help explain why you are wrong better.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,16:06   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,16:51)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 03 2011,15:38)
It's amazing that with the books all packed up you can remember the name and pages numbers of the appropriate sections. Designer be praised!

I have used the quote several times but didnt quote the original source. I will get the original source though for the many straw grabbers

pointing out your lies = straw grabbing

LOL

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,16:13   

Quote (rossum @ Nov. 03 2011,06:08)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 02 2011,20:12)
Hmm so your saying the story represents one spirit being impersonating a creator and another spirit being dismissing his claims?

No.  The Abrahamic god, worshiped by Jews, Christians and Moslems, is mistaken and his claims are in error.  He claims to be the Immortal Omnipotent Creator, but his claims are wrong.   He is long lived, but not immortal.  He is powerful, but not omnipotent.  He didn't create the world, but is deluded in thinking that he did.

 
Quote
Tantric rituals involve ...

There are two possibilities here.  First, you have been initiated into one of the Tantric lineages, and in the process sworn yourself not to reveal its secrets to the uninitiated.  In this case you are an oath breaker and not to be trusted.  Second, that you have not been initiated and that you are talking about things of which you have no knowledge.  Again, what you say is not to be trusted.  I consider that the second possibility is more likely.

Tantras are secret.  Even when they are written down, they are written in coded language so that the uninitiated cannot understand them.  Knowing that the translation of "a red herring" is "a pink fish" does not help you get to the real meaning of the text.  The words of a written Tantra are deliberately designed to be misleading to the uninitiated.  You cannot learn Tantra from a book; you have to be initiated.

rossum

Wow! I always heard that the Buddhist big wigs considered Jesus a great prophet but I didnt know that their scriptures cited him and Abraham as arrogant

Its not so secret when you got the likes of everyone from the Beatles to the Nazi SS going to Tibet to learn Tantra. Heck Paul McCartney even manages tantric schools

The heavy duty tantra is so secret due to its sadomasochism, pedophilia, so called compassionate torture, self mutilation etc etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....4D099R0

THE SHADOW OF THE DALAI LAMA: SEXUALITY, MAGIC AND POLITICS IN TIBETAN BUDDHISM http://www.american-buddha.com/shadow.....lai.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....s6cNxbY

I was a Tantric sex slave – June Campbell
www.trimondi.de/EN/deba02.html

The Emperor's Tantric Robes - an Interview with June Campbell
www.anandainfo.com/tantric_robes.html

Kloset Kalu, the Secret Lover
www.american-buddha.com/kloset.kalu.htm

Buddhist Clergy Sexual Abuse: Annotated Bibliography
www.trimondi.de/EN/deba01.html

Best-selling Buddhist Author accused of sexual abuse – Don Lattin
www.american-buddha.com/sogyal.htm

Buddhist Sect Alarmed by Reports that Leader Kept His AIDS a Secret - John Dart
www.aegis.com/news/lt/1989/LT890302.html

Anonymous letter to American Buddha
www.american-buddha.com/letter%20from%20anonymous.htm

Tibetan Buddhist Master infects Gay Disciples with HIV
www.flameout.org/flameout/gurus/tibetan.html

Sonam Kazi Family Values
www.american-buddha.com/kazi.family.htm

www.american-buddha.com/bulletin_board/viewtopic.php?t=340

Echoes of Nalinika: Monk in the Dock – Enid Adam
www.american-buddha.com/echoes.nalinika.htm

Karaoke Monk booted out – BBC News Asia
www.american-buddha.com/karaoke.monk.htm

Buddhism and Misogyny (historical overview) – V. and V. Trimondi
www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-01.htm

The “Tantric Female Sacrifice" – V. and V. Trimondi
www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-03.htm

Beatings are nothing new
www.taipeitimes.com/News/archives/2000/01/22/0000021071

Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth - Michael Parenti
www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html

Monks arrested over sexual abuse of Sri Lankan war orphans
http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se....O8.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2....846.stm

Buddhism’s pedophile monks – Uwe Siemon-Netto
www.american-buddha.com/pedophile.monks.htm

Princeton Prof. says no to Sri Lanka Child Monks
www.american-buddha.com/child.monks.htm

  
rossum



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,16:19   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,12:39)
When you Buddhist and pseudist gonna explain why you dance to the tune of spontaneous generation from primordial soup that accidentally exploded into a super huge zoo?   Oh I remember. There was this thing called abiogenesis where spontaneous but accidental aggregation of lipids and proteins formed primitive spaghetti monsters from the fountain of soup.

You have already shown us that you do not understand either evolution or Buddhism.  We can now add abiogenesis and chemistry to the list.

Chemistry is not an "accidental" process.  Do you think is is "accidental" that exactly two atoms of hydrogen, not three, not four, but always two, combine with a single atom of oxygen to make a molecule of water?  Hint: valency.

Read something about abiogenesis and learn where proteins appeared in the process.  Hint: it wasn't either at the start or in the middle.

Quote
Many years later Chandra Wickramasinghe and fred Hoyle who calculated that the chance of obtaining the required set of enzymes for even the simplest living cell was one in 1040,000. Since the number of atoms in the known universe is infinitesimally tiny by comparison (1080), he argued that even a whole universe full of primordial soup would grant little chance to evolutionary processes.

We now know that you can't even properly proof-read the stuff you cut and paste.  Go back to the original you copied this from and check those numbers.  You will see "10^40,000" and "10^80", or their equivalents.  You are distinctly failing to impress here.

Wickramasinghe and Hoyle were excellent astronomers.  They were less good biologists.  Their probability calculations included the effects of random mutation, but failed to include the effects of natural selection.  Since evolution includes both random mutation and natural selection, their numbers do not reflect evolution.  GIGO.  I suggest that you redo their calculations with the effect of natural selection included.

rossum

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The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,16:31   

Quote (rossum @ Nov. 03 2011,14:19)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,12:39)
When you Buddhist and pseudist gonna explain why you dance to the tune of spontaneous generation from primordial soup that accidentally exploded into a super huge zoo?   Oh I remember. There was this thing called abiogenesis where spontaneous but accidental aggregation of lipids and proteins formed primitive spaghetti monsters from the fountain of soup.

You have already shown us that you do not understand either evolution or Buddhism.  We can now add abiogenesis and chemistry to the list.

Chemistry is not an "accidental" process.  Do you think is is "accidental" that exactly two atoms of hydrogen, not three, not four, but always two, combine with a single atom of oxygen to make a molecule of water?  Hint: valency.

Read something about abiogenesis and learn where proteins appeared in the process.  Hint: it wasn't either at the start or in the middle.

Quote
Many years later Chandra Wickramasinghe and fred Hoyle who calculated that the chance of obtaining the required set of enzymes for even the simplest living cell was one in 1040,000. Since the number of atoms in the known universe is infinitesimally tiny by comparison (1080), he argued that even a whole universe full of primordial soup would grant little chance to evolutionary processes.

We now know that you can't even properly proof-read the stuff you cut and paste.  Go back to the original you copied this from and check those numbers.  You will see "10^40,000" and "10^80", or their equivalents.  You are distinctly failing to impress here.

Wickramasinghe and Hoyle were excellent astronomers.  They were less good biologists.  Their probability calculations included the effects of random mutation, but failed to include the effects of natural selection.  Since evolution includes both random mutation and natural selection, their numbers do not reflect evolution.  GIGO.  I suggest that you redo their calculations with the effect of natural selection included.

rossum

Perhaps in muppet universe (where Darwin was alive in 1993 and Hitler was a Buddhist) there are only 1080 atoms.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
rossum



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,16:32   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,16:13)
Wow! I always heard that the Buddhist big wigs considered Jesus a great prophet but I didnt know that their scriptures cited him and Abraham as arrogant

You heard wrong.  Buddhism doesn't do prophets, we leave that to the Abrahamic religions.  Jesus is normally considered to be a Bodhisattva.  Abraham we don't think about much, since we ignore most of what he said.  All the best bits were repeated by Jesus anyway, and being prepared to make a human sacrifice of your own child to appease a bloodthirsty god is definitely un-Buddhist behaviour.  It is YHWH we see as arrogant, claiming to be what he isn't.

Quote
{list of Buddhists doing unwise actions}

Yes, some Buddhists fall short of the standards they should be following.  So?  People of all religions, and of none, do sometimes fall short of moral standards.  Timothy McVeigh was American, does that mean all Americans are morally wrong and that no moral person can be an American?  No, I don't think so either.

rossum

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The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,16:34   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 03 2011,15:56)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,14:49)
Hmm I am glad that we agree that animals don’t mutate into other classes of animals. And here I always thought Panda’s Thumb believed herbivorous pandas mutated from Ursines. I guess you would also say that herb eaters like afarensis or habilis didn’t mutate into meat eating homos? Come to think of it, the priest over at Nat. Geo. have been saying the vegi orangutan is genetically closer to meet eating homos than are chimps. Of course you don’t really believe that.

Interestingly, epigenetic plasticity does allow some animals to alter to or from strict carnivorous and herbivorous diets. You should read up on it sometime

You'll not very carefully what I said and didn't say.

I said that carnivores have carnassials and that artiodactyles have three stomachs.  

I said that no one, not even biologists expect mutations to change an artiodactyl into a carnivore (of the order carnivora).

Since then, you have changed your mind and now you want me to explain how the common ancestor of bears resulted in both pandas (which are effectively obligate herbivores) and polar bears (which are effectively obligate carnivores).

Do you see the difference in what you are saying?  I doubt it.

Your claim was for me to explain how mutations and natural selection could change orders of species.  This is exactly as I described it.  This is having an ancestral species that is an artidactyl, given time, will have descendants that are members of carnivora.  This is, of course, impossible.  It is extremely unlikely that all the traits of carnivores would arise in exactly the same way a second time, especially from an order that it already specialized in another direction (three stomachs, for example).

However, you have shifted the goalpost and are now demanding the evolutionary history of bears.  Note that even though the giant panda is almost an obligate herbivore, it STILL has the characteristics of the order carnivora (carnassials, a short intestinal tract (which is why it must eat so much, it's digestive system is very poor for the food it consimes), 4 toes per limb, etc).

Perhaps you should read, the evolutionary history of bears.  

Kemp, T.S. (2005). The Origin and Evolution of Mammals. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-850760-4.

Wang Banyue and Qiu Zhanxiang (2005). "Notes on Early Oligocene Ursids (Carnivora, Mammalia) from Saint Jacques, Nei Mongol, China" (PDF). Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History 279 (279): 116–124. doi:10.1206/0003-0090(2003)279<0116:C>2.0.CO;2.

Krause, J.; Unger, T.; Noçon, A.; Malaspinas, A.; Kolokotronis, S.; Stiller, M.; Soibelzon, L.; Spriggs, H.; Dear, P. H.; Briggs, A. W.; Bray, S. C. E.; O'Brien, S. J.; Rabeder, G.; Matheus, P.; Cooper, A.; Slatkin, M.; Pääbo, S.; Hofreiter, M. (2008-07-28). "Mitochondrial genomes reveal an explosive radiation of extinct and extant bears near the Miocene-Pliocene boundary". BMC Evolutionary Biology 8 (220): 220. doi:10.1186/1471-2148-8-220. PMC 2518930. PMID 18662376.

Soibelzon, L. H.; Tonni, E. P.; Bond, M. (October 2005). "The fossil record of South American short-faced bears (Ursidae, Tremarctinae)". Journal of South American Earth Sciences 20 (1–2): 105–113. doi:10.1016/j.jsames.2005.07.005.

Qiu Zhanxiang (2003). "Dispersals of Neogene Carnivorans between Asia and North America" (PDF). Bulletin American Museum of Natural History 279 (279): 18–31. doi:10.1206/0003-0090(2003)279<0018:C>2.0.CO;2.

Kurtén, B., 1995. The cave bear story: life and death of a vanished animal, Björn Kurtén, Columbia University Press

Or better yet, (here's another question you will chicken out on and not answer), what is your explanation for the apparent confusion here?  Why would a member of the order carnivora, with all the carnivore specializations, be eating plants?  Please explain with with specific references to the designer and why his designs make no sense.

Again, you make a claim, but do not back it up.  Citation please, specifically of this: "epigenetic plasticity does allow some animals to alter to or from strict carnivorous and herbivorous diets"

And please show EXACTLY how the phenotype changes.  I would expect that you not make the same mistake previously and say that activating a gene a change in phenotype.  At a minimum, I need the scientific paper reference.  I would really like a summary of the paper in your own words so that I know you understand this.

I'll just add these two to the list of questions you have yet to answer... here:

define homozygous
define heterozygous
describe the Cambrian explosion
define symmetry breaking (as relates to the begining of the universe)
define hyper-inflation
describe the endocrine notion of phenotype selection
define phenotype (include the other common -type and define that as well)
explain why you insist that evolution requires something that no scientist requires (fruit flies to dogs)
explain why you insist that evolution explain a process which cannot be affected by evolution (i.e. Origins of Life)
define species
show that mutation always results in the loss of genetic information (show the math and define information while you are at it)
evidence that the four fundamental forces of our universe change over time
Evidence that you understand when nucleosynthesis occurs with respect to the early universe.
Evidence that the magnetic field is weakening
Evidence that fruits and vegetables of today have lost large percentages of their mineral content over the last 50 years
Evidence that bones are becoming less dense.
[strike]Define robust in terms of early man.[/strike]
Show evidence that fossil man (define and give examples of) are less robust than modern man  (The Daily Mail is not peer-reviewed evidence and you have not cited evidence for other claims)
Show evidence of any other species that is less robust now than the same species in pre-historical time
Describe how you explain the diversity of order carnivora such that the same order contains obligate carnivores and obligate herbivores.  Relate this information to the information provided regarding the evolutionary history of these organisms (IOW: Let's compare what you say and what I say to the actual genes of these critters).
Provide a citation that shows how an environmental change causes a change in the phenotype that would allow an animal that is an obligate carnivore to change to an obligate herbivorous diet.
Provide a summary of the research in your own words.

This is quite a list and it will only get larger.  I suggest you start tackling it.

"given enough time" Is that kinda like the monkey that that took a billion years to type a novel or the tornado that made a 747 in the junk yard?

Ooh back to bears and cats again but this time with some teeth. This could be the penal system's first sign of evidence against me since they shipped me here

So did the

Please do elaborate in your own words the mechanics of how the polar bear and Panda mutated from Ursus arctos?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,16:42   

Recursive selection, quite unlike tornado / junkyard spontaneous creation.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,16:53   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,16:34)
Please do elaborate in your own words the mechanics of how the polar bear and Panda mutated from Ursus arctos?

I'll make a deal with you. Please provide the ID (or whatever) explanation for the same and for every word in your answer that relates specifically to that I'll provide in return 10 on the same topic from my perspective.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,18:12   

Quote (rossum @ Nov. 03 2011,16:32)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,16:13)
Wow! I always heard that the Buddhist big wigs considered Jesus a great prophet but I didnt know that their scriptures cited him and Abraham as arrogant

You heard wrong.  Buddhism doesn't do prophets, we leave that to the Abrahamic religions.  Jesus is normally considered to be a Bodhisattva.  Abraham we don't think about much, since we ignore most of what he said.  All the best bits were repeated by Jesus anyway, and being prepared to make a human sacrifice of your own child to appease a bloodthirsty god is definitely un-Buddhist behaviour.  It is YHWH we see as arrogant, claiming to be what he isn't.

 
Quote
{list of Buddhists doing unwise actions}

Yes, some Buddhists fall short of the standards they should be following.  So?  People of all religions, and of none, do sometimes fall short of moral standards.  Timothy McVeigh was American, does that mean all Americans are morally wrong and that no moral person can be an American?  No, I don't think so either.

rossum

Oh yes Buddhist do have so called Messianic prophesies http://www.maitreya.org/english....ism.htm

Adi Da was suggested by his devotees to be Maitreya: "an All-Surpassing God-Man yet to come -- a final Avatar, the ultimate Messiah, a consumate Prophet or Enlightened Sage, a Spiritual Deliverer who will appear in the 'late-time', the 'dark' epoch when humanity is lost, apparently cut off from Wisdom, Truth and God. Buddhists call that Expected One 'Maitreya'." [19]  Carolyn Lee. "Adi Da: The Promised God-Man Is Here: The Ruchira Sannyasin Order of Adidam Ruchiradam:” Jesus within Buddhism. It has been suggested that within Mahayana Buddhism the legendary Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara developed out of Jesus having been in Tibet and India. 44 For one reason, this bodhisattva is thought to have reached his earliest known (legendary) form around the second or third century C.E.,45 which timing is appropriate for the hypothesis. For another reason, the book by Professor John Holt of Bowdoin College, Brunswick, Maine, suggests that the origins of the Avalokitesvara cult was in northwest India in the second century.46

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....YtPx--U
The Kalachakra Tantra contains the prophecy of a holy war between Buddhists and so-called "barbarian" Muslims (Skt. mleccha). http://www.berzinarchives.com/web....ng.html

In accordance with a prophecy in the Sutra on Magical Perception, Padmakara transformed himself into the monk Wangpo Dey in order to convert King Ashoka. Having established Ashoka in unshakable faith, during a single night he erected in this world one million stupas containing the relics of the Tathagata. He also subdued several non-Buddhist teachers, was poisoned by one king but remained unharmed. When he then was thrown into the river he made the river flow upstream and danced about in mid-air. Through that he became known as Powerful Garuda Youth.

The Buddha gave him this prophecy: "Many aeons ago you were the gelong Chöchi Lodro. Now you are Zipji Muchee, and in a future life you will become Buddha Amitabha." For thousands of millions of years Zipji Muchee practised the Dharma. He vowed that he would not achieve buddhahood until every being who prayed to be in his buddha-realm could be born there. Eventually his wishing-prayer was fulfilled, and he became Amitabha. The buddha-realm he manifested is known as Déwachen. Ten aeons/kalpas have passed since Amitabha established that realm.

Timothy McVeigh was just one agnostic who confessed: "science is my religion".  Buddhism is violent in essence and influences many. Oh and another reason tantric rituals are kept secret is because often involve casting spells

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,18:27   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,18:12)
Oh and another reason tantric rituals are kept secret is because often involve casting spells



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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,18:32   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,12:59)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 03 2011,08:04)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,03:09)
 
Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,01:35)
   
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 02 2011,22:49)
Charles Darwin once said " We do not know the ancestors of the Vendian faunas well, and like the Cambrian biota it appeared suddenly in a "complete state" .

Where and when did he say this?

My library is all packed up at the moment up but I am pretty sure you will find your answer in the following

Mikhail Fedonkin, "Vendian body fossils and trace fossils," in S. Bengston, ed., Early Life on Earth. Nobel Symposium No. 84 (New York: Columbia University Press, 1993), pp. 370-388; p. 388.

Come now, you don't really expect us to think you read something that requires a trip to the library?

The odds are that you grabbed both the hearsay and the reference from this site.

ETA: Forgot to mention that you couldn't even get that much right. Here's what the page said:

 
Quote

[...] Commenting on the puzzling status of the Ediacaran (Vendian) fossils, the Russian paleontologist Mikhail Fedonkin writes:

We are now in the situation Charles Darwin found himself in about 150 years ago. He was puzzled by the absence of the ancestors of the Cambrian invertebrates, considering this fact as a strong argument against his theory of gradualistic evolution of species. We do not know the ancestors of the Vendian fauna as well, and like the Cambrian biota it appeared suddenly in a "complete state."5


Mistaking something explicitly attributed to Fedonkin as something Darwin wrote seems about your speed.

I actually own the book and will dig it out just for you

Color me curious... how would "digging out" Fedonkin's book help you with the fact that you claimed Charles Darwin wrote something that he did not write?

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,18:40   

it could help because on every page are potential scores of nonsequitors and red herrings poison smoke distract nuke hominem wire ads.

what is this thing, a wikipedia bot?  LOL

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,19:19   

Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 03 2011,13:48)
Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,13:26)
     
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,10:39)
     
Quote (Quack @ Nov. 03 2011,04:45)
All right, all that remains is for you to explain how it really was, what really happened. That's all I want to know.

BTW, have you ever read  Origins?

You mean origins of Darwin's so called "Favored Races" that compared black slaves to apes and justified their exploitation with his evolutionary replacement theory ?

Answer of "No, I haven't" duly noted.

Quite. But if forastero wants to read about Darwin's opinions on slavery, start here.

Though I am not counting on it, somebody may actually learn something.

In The Origin of Species, By the Preservation of Favoured Races, Darwin writes: “With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilized societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man”

Darwin continues: "At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaafhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his meanest allies will be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla." (Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man, 2nd edition, New York, A L. Burt Co., 1874, p. 17

In 1870 Max Muller, an evolutionist anthropologist from the Anthropological Review of London, had divided human races into seven categories. Aborigines appeared at the bottom, and the Aryan race, that of the white Europeans, at the top.

H. K. Rusden, a famous Social Darwinist, had this to say about the aborigines in 1876: "The survival of the fittest means that might is right. And we thus invoke and remorselessly fulfil the inexorable law of natural selection when exterminating the inferior Australian and Maori races… and we appropriate their patrimony coolly".32


And in 1890 the Vice-President of the Royal Society of Tasmania, James Barnard, wrote: "the process of extermination is an axiom of the law of evolution and survival of the fittest." There was therefore, he concluded, no reason to suppose that "there had been any culpable neglect" in the murder and dispossession of the Aboriginal Australian.

The policies aimed at aborigines did not end with massacres. In a frenzied attempt to to find the "missing link", many members of the race were treated like experimental animals. The Smithsonian Institute in Washington D.C. held the remains of 15,000 people of various races. 10,000 Australian aborigines were sent by ship to the British Museum with the aim of seeing whether or not they were the "missing link" in the transition from animals to human beings. Museums were not just interested in bones, at the same time they kept brains belonging to aborigines and sold them at high prices. There is also proof that Australian aborigines were killed to be used as specimens. The facts below bear witness to this ruthlessness: A death-bed memoir from Korah Wills, who became mayor of Bowen, Queensland in 1866, graphically describes how he killed and dismembered a local tribesman in 1865 to provide a scientific specimen.
Edward Ramsay, curator of the Australian Museum in Sydney for 20 years from 1874, was particularly heavily involved. He published a museum booklet which appeared to include Aborigines under the designation of "Australian animals". It also gave instructions not only on how to rob graves, but also on how to plug up bullet wounds in freshly killed "specimens".

A German evolutionist, Amalie Dietrich (nicknamed the 'Angel of Black Death') came to Australia asking station owners for Aborigines to be shot for specimens, particularly skin for stuffing and mounting for her museum employers. Although evicted from at least one property, she shortly returned home with her specimens.

A New South Wales missionary was a horrified witness to the slaughter by mounted police of a group of dozens of Aboriginal men, women and children. Forty-five heads were then boiled down and the 10 best skulls were packed off for overseas.35 All in a frenzied attempt to prove the widespread belief that they were the 'missing link'.

Along with museum curators from around the world, Monaghan says, some of the top names in British science were involved in this large-scale grave-robbing trade.3 These included anatomist Sir Richard Owen, anthropologist Sir Arthur Keith, and Charles Darwin himself. Darwin wrote asking for Tasmanian skulls when only four full-blooded Tasmanian Aborigines were left alive, provided his request would not 'upset' their feelings. Museums were not only interested in bones, but in fresh skins as well. These would provide interesting evolutionary displays when stuffed.


The extermination of the aborigines continued in the 20th century. Among the methods employed in this extermination was the forcible removal of aborigine children from their families. A news story by Alan Thornhill, which appeared in the 28 April 1997 edition of the Philadelphia Daily News, recounted this method used against the aborigines in this way: "keep state welfare agents from taking them away. "The welfare just grabbed you when they found you," one of the stolen children reported, many years later. "Our people would hide us, paint us with charcoal." "I was taken to Moola Bulla," said one cattler worker who was stolen as a child. "We were about 5 or 6 years old." His tale was one of thousands heard by Australia's Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission during its heart-wrenching inquiry into the "stolen generation." From 1910 until the 1970s, some 100,000 aboriginal children were taken from their parents... Light-skinned aboriginal children were seized and handed out to white families for adoption. Dark-skinned children were put in orphanages.36
Even now, the pain is so great that most stories were printed anonymously in the commission's final report, "Bringing Them Home." The commission says the actions of the authorities at that time amounted to genocide as the United Nations defines it. The government has refused to follow the inquiry's recommendation that a tribunal be set up to assess compensation payments for the stolen children.

Darwin gave the following account of Tasmania's Black War:[27] "All the aboriginals have been removed to an island in Bass's Straits, so that Van Diemen's Land enjoys the great advantage of being free from a native population. This most cruel step seems to have been quite unavoidable, as the only means of stopping a fearful succession of robberies, burnings, and murders, committed by the blacks; but which sooner or later must have ended in their utter destruction. I fear there is no doubt that this train of evil and its consequences, originated in the infamous conduct of some of our countrymen."

But it wasnt just Darwin's survival of the fittest that led to the genocide and slavery of Amerindians, Jews, Gypsies, and Africans etc... The Darwin family including Galton, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Hitler etc also hated and feared the idea of race mixing and thus much of their anti slavery talk preferred eugenics and or genocide over slavery

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,19:24   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 03 2011,18:32)
Color me curious... how would "digging out" Fedonkin's book help you with the fact that you claimed Charles Darwin wrote something that he did not write?

Its a extremely cited book and contains the original source of course

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,19:28   

Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 03 2011,16:31)
only 1080 atoms.

That was a typo. There are various access keys here but they no longer work for me

  
rossum



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,19:31   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,18:12)
Oh yes Buddhist do have so called Messianic prophesies  http://www.maitreya.org/english....ism.htm

You are just showing your ignorance of Buddhism.  The Maitreya is a Buddha, not a Messiah.  A Messiah is a concept from Judaism, not Buddhism.  Please don't get you religions mixed up.  It merely shows up even further your basic lack of knowledge about the stuff you are copying from the Internet.

Quote
Adi Da was suggested by his devotees to be Maitreya

And his devotees were wrong.  The Maitreya Buddha has not come yet.

Quote
The Buddha gave him this prophecy:

The Buddha is a Buddha, not a prophet.  Again, you are misunderstanding Buddhism.  If you apply concepts from Judaism directly to Buddhism, you will usually be making an error.

Quote
Timothy McVeigh was just one agnostic who confessed: "science is my religion".

Irrelevant.  I said that he was an American, which is correct.  I said nothing about his religious beliefs, or lack thereof.  My point obviously missed you completely.  My apologies for my mis-estimate of your level of comprehension.

Quote
Buddhism is violent in essence and influences many.

Go through the Bible and count up the number of people God kills, or orders to be killed.  Go through the Tripitaka and count up the number of people the Buddha kills, or orders to be killed.  Compare the two numbers, and get back to us on which of the two religions "is violent in essence".  We can agree that Buddhism influences many.

Quote
Oh and another reason tantric rituals are kept secret is because often involve casting spells

And you know this how?  If they are secret, then you don't know what happens in them.  If you know what happens in them, then they aren't secret.  Or perhaps you believe that everything you read on the Internet is true?  That would explain a few things.

rossum

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The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,19:40   

He cuts and pastes real gud.

Interestingly, he didn't take out the footnote numbers.

You do realize that copying someone else's work without attribution is immoral and potentially illegal depending on the age of the quote?

BTW: you copied it from here: http://www.harunyahya.com/disaste....s03.php

Now why can't you just make a simple link to things you cut and paste.

We're asking for your own words here so that we can be sure you understand the concepts.  sigh..

Just out of curiosity, did you read the quote you posted?

I found this interesting
Quote
In polyphenic development, hormones control a switch between alternative developmental pathways so that individuals with identical genotypes can develop dramatically different phenotypes.


Did you miss the word that I bolded?  Again, you are simply describing known functions.  Crocodile sex is determined by the temperature at which the eggs incubate.  So what?

That DOES NOT mean that if I keep a crocodile cooler, then it will switch to a female.  It doesn't mean that if I inject estrogen into a male human, that I will get a female human.

I think we may have a difference of opinion about what PHENOTYPE means.

That's why I keep asking you to define the words that you use.  It's not my fault that you don't understand these concepts.

BTW: Copying and pasting (as shown above) does not mean you understand a concept.  

Your specific claim is "The endocrine system can change an organisms phenotype."  This is not development, this is not metamorphasis.  This is a very specific claim.  Do you continue to maintain that this claim is correct?

If so, then please provide evidence where an organisms endocrine system caused a phenotypic change.  If not, then we can stop worrying about.

BTW: Still haven't answered your questions, even after I answered yours.  This seems to indicate an aversion to legitimate discussion and the back and forth of ideas.

Oh, BTW: I already provided you with a series of papers regarding the evolutionary history of the ursids.  If you read those articles I presented you will see one article on the biochemical changes among species, although I'm sure OM would enjoy schooling you on the subject.

Still waiting...

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,19:42   

Quote (rossum @ Nov. 03 2011,16:32)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,16:13)
Wow! I always heard that the Buddhist big wigs considered Jesus a great prophet but I didnt know that their scriptures cited him and Abraham as arrogant

You heard wrong.  Buddhism doesn't do prophets, we leave that to the Abrahamic religions.  Jesus is normally considered to be a Bodhisattva.  Abraham we don't think about much, since we ignore most of what he said.  All the best bits were repeated by Jesus anyway, and being prepared to make a human sacrifice of your own child to appease a bloodthirsty god is definitely un-Buddhist behaviour.  It is YHWH we see as arrogant, claiming to be what he isn't.

 
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{list of Buddhists doing unwise actions}

Yes, some Buddhists fall short of the standards they should be following.  So?  People of all religions, and of none, do sometimes fall short of moral standards.  Timothy McVeigh was American, does that mean all Americans are morally wrong and that no moral person can be an American?  No, I don't think so either.

rossum

“By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going” (Hebrews 11:8.
Abraham's communication with God was all about the comfort from faith in the coming Messiah who would be willing to pay the ultimate price for us. Abraham faced with the killing his own son helped him to understand and remember this coming sacrifice of the Messiah.

Chakrasamsara/Vajrayogin? 'the Wrathful Lady' Just like the Hindu kali ChakraSamvara/Vajrayogin? with a vajra in her right hand and a kapala (skull cup) in her left hand which is filled with blood that she partakes of with her upturned mouth. Her head is adorned with a crown of five human skulls and she wears a necklace of fifty human skulls. She is depicted as standing in the center of a blazing fire of exalted wisdom. the curved drigug knife in her right hand shows her power to cut the continuum of the delusions and obstacles of her followers and of all living beings. Drinking the nectar of blood from the kapala in her left hand symbolizes her experience of the clear light of bliss.[15] the severed-headed form of Vajrayogin? is similar to the Indian goddess Chinnamasta who is recognized by both Hindus and Buddhists.[17]

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,19:48   

It's polite to even note Wikipedia when you copy and paste.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayogini)

Here's a hint.  If you want to claim it as yours, drop the scholarly language and remove the footnotes.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2011,19:53   

Quote (rossum @ Nov. 03 2011,19:31)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 03 2011,18:12)
Oh yes Buddhist do have so called Messianic prophesies  http://www.maitreya.org/english....ism.htm

You are just showing your ignorance of Buddhism.  The Maitreya is a Buddha, not a Messiah.  A Messiah is a concept from Judaism, not Buddhism.  Please don't get you religions mixed up.  It merely shows up even further your basic lack of knowledge about the stuff you are copying from the Internet.

 
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Adi Da was suggested by his devotees to be Maitreya

And his devotees were wrong.  The Maitreya Buddha has not come yet.

 
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The Buddha gave him this prophecy:

The Buddha is a Buddha, not a prophet.  Again, you are misunderstanding Buddhism.  If you apply concepts from Judaism directly to Buddhism, you will usually be making an error.

 
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Timothy McVeigh was just one agnostic who confessed: "science is my religion".

Irrelevant.  I said that he was an American, which is correct.  I said nothing about his religious beliefs, or lack thereof.  My point obviously missed you completely.  My apologies for my mis-estimate of your level of comprehension.

 
Quote
Buddhism is violent in essence and influences many.

Go through the Bible and count up the number of people God kills, or orders to be killed.  Go through the Tripitaka and count up the number of people the Buddha kills, or orders to be killed.  Compare the two numbers, and get back to us on which of the two religions "is violent in essence".  We can agree that Buddhism influences many.

 
Quote
Oh and another reason tantric rituals are kept secret is because often involve casting spells

And you know this how?  If they are secret, then you don't know what happens in them.  If you know what happens in them, then they aren't secret.  Or perhaps you believe that everything you read on the Internet is true?  That would explain a few things.

rossum

Wow! You you cut off your own scriptures to save your face. Bottom line is that Buddhism references Messianic prophecy.

The phenotypic plasticity of epigentiic immunity (also referred to as the biological arms race) is another way of explaining the Hebrew war against the Canaanites.. This magnificently designed system sends out macrophages (myocytes, monocytes etc..) to encapsulate and destroy cells infected by antigens, viruses, bacteria etc..

Canaanites such as the Amalakites and the Mycenaean Greeks were given over to very depraved lifestyles such as fornication,necrophilia, bestiality, coprophillia, rape, homosexuality, lesbianism, incest,, pedophilia, and human sacrifices. Thus it is more than likely that all the beast and children were slaughtered to prevent the spread of not only deadly behavior, but STDs. Lev 18:03-26.The Hebrews and other peoples of the Exodus were the immune system of God's creation and emerged from that immune cell known as the Ark, which inhabited that cleansing Flood--that great apoptosis which removed the malignant killers of the trees and megafauna

  
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