deadman_932
Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006
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| Quote (Daniel Smith @ Nov. 09 2008,14:34) | 2008,12:09]
I didn't "move the goalposts" deadman. My original challenge was for a detailed pathway for the natural origin of any complex biosystem. No one here would touch that - so I said I'd be happy with a guess. I said that to entice discussion. I was hoping someone would at least propose something, and (to your credit) you stepped up and did that.
A hypothetical pathway, with no details, does not meet my original challenge - but it's a start. Now let's go further: let's examine it in detail and see if it stands up to scrutiny. If you are truly willing to fill in the blanks for your hypothetical pathway, we'll get somewhere. If you are only willing to say "the answer's out there - go look it up", then you're not really proposing anything of value to this discussion. So, if you have a specific cite that explains how the specific enzymes required for your hypothetical pathway came into being without an amino acid synthesis mechanism in place, that would further the discussion. If, on the other hand, all you're willing to do is make general statements about meteors and hypothetical mechanisms that may or may not apply, we'll get nowhere. |
Logically, I fail to see how you can say you didn't change the goalposts -- when you just admitted you NOW want the goalposts back to your "original" challenge, Daniel.
1. No, you didn't get the response you wanted to your original challenge, Daniel. That's because you didn't just ask about how an amino acid bio-synthesis pathway could come about -- you wanted also the origins of all enzymes and all amino acids involved, each step for each component, from Origin of Life to amino acid synthesis, in an existing critter (E.coli). As I stated earlier in my posts, NO ONE can provide that presently, Daniel.
Just for the edification of others, this is what you ORIGINALLY asked for concerning amino acid bio-synthesis, Daniel:
| Quote | Daniel_Smith wrote:
1. Explain how this amino acid synthesis system in E. coli originated via natural mechanisms.
2. Explain how and why each of the twenty unique enzymes came to be. To further complicate matters let me add here that enzymes are proteins, and proteins are made from (you guessed it) amino acids! So enzymes are required to make amino acids and amino acids are required to make enzymes. A divine catch-22!
3. Explain how each of the twenty steps in the biochemical pathway came together in the correct order to form these essential amino acids.
4. Tell us what the immediate precursor to the current system was.
5. What were all the intermediate steps? Remember that this explanation must account for each enzyme and each step.
6. Explain how each enzyme came to be regulated. These enzymes are only produced as needed. If enzymes were unregulated you could either have too many of them, causing a chemical imbalance or even cell rupture; or too few, which would stop amino acid synthesis. How did this regulation come about? |
Now, as you admitted in your last post to me, you changed that, after I CLEARLY STATED that no one can presently provide the detail you WERE asking for.
Got that, Daniel? YOU admitted in your last post to me that you DID change your criteria (goals) to "show me a viable pathway of ANY system" This is what you asked for at that time:
| Quote | Daniel_Smith wrote:
"why don't you give me your best guess as to how the system evolved? Just a quick sketch will do (but preferably something that goes beyond the 'one sentence scenarios' offered here so far). It obviously can't be too complicated - it happened by accident after all! |
But when you are given a viable pathway for amino acid biosynthesis from archaeons to modern E.coli...you now switch the goals back to your "original " (and as I admitted) impossible-to-currently-obtain "goal"
But you NOW claim that you DIDN'T change the height of the metaphorical tennis net from 60 feet down to 4 feet then back to 60?
Sure you did, you're just not honest enough to even deal with that, Daniel. This is why I said clearly that you are operating in bad faith, Daniel -- You moved from asking me to provide that which I admitted I cannot provide
(1) to "give me a viable pathway" (my paraphrase) THEN back to your "original"
(2) "provide me that which is not curently known"
Again, as I said previously, you are specifically acting in bad faith for a reason: you are looking for any gap to stick your God in, heedless of my admission that your ORIGINAL "challenge" is impossible to currently attain.
Now, Daniel, I'd like to question you on the "Universal Genome" you claimed you would argue for. Unlike you, I won't change my goalposts, Daniel, mainly because I don't have any deep emotional investment in any of this, merely curiousity -- plus I prefer honest tactics above the type that you are employing, Daniel. Remember, Daniel, when YOU asked for a viable pathway of ANY system of aminosynthesis, I gave you one from an ATP-production "pump" (as in mitochondria) to primitive Archaeons (thermophiles) to modern E. coli. It's not my problem that you are moving your goalposts, but I'd like to see you do what YOU claimed you could, Daniel.
So, are YOU ready to "argue for" a Universal Genome Hypothesis," Daniel? YOU SAID you would...and YOU SAID this purported "Universal Genome"
| Quote | | "explains these similarities (I'd argue) better than the proposed evolutionary models. " |
concerning Amino Acid Synthesis. Were you being honest there, Daniel, or were you also acting in bad faith in that as well? Inquiring minds want to know, Daniel.
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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism
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