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Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,07:45   

I had to Laugh at FL quoting Slimey Sal on PT.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,11:31   

I'm sorry.  I thought I was posting on this thread.

Lou, if you want to move my comments here from the great FL Debate to the peanut gallery thread, I have no objection.

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Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2009,10:31   

Fallacies used by Floyd to date

Ad hominem: an argument that attacks the person who holds a view or advances an argument, rather than commenting on the view or responding to the argument.
Argument from fallacy: if an argument for some conclusion is fallacious, then the conclusion is also fallacious.
Bare assertion fallacy: premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
Suppressed correlative: where a correlative is redefined so that one alternative is made impossible.
Fallacy of necessity: a degree of unwarranted necessity is placed in the conclusion based on the necessity of one or more of its premises.
False dilemma (false dichotomy): where two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more.
Homunculus fallacy: where a "middle-man" is used for explanation, this usually leads to regressive middle-man. Explanations without actually explaining the real nature of a function or a process.
Masked man fallacy: the substitution of identical designators in a true statement can lead to a false one.
Naturalistic fallacy: a fallacy that claims that if something is natural, then it is good or right.  (Theistic fallacy?!?!?)
Nirvana fallacy: when solutions to problems are said not to be right because they are not perfect.
Negative Proof fallacy: that, because a premise cannot be proven false, the premise must be true; or that, because a premise cannot be proven true, the premise must be false.
Package-deal fallacy: consists of assuming that things often grouped together by tradition or culture must always be grouped that way
Red Herring: also called a "fallacy of relevance." This occurs when the speaker is trying to distract the audience by arguing some new topic, or just generally going off topic with an argument.

Existential fallacy: an argument has two universal premises and a particular conclusion, but the premises do not establish the truth of the conclusion.
Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam): signifies that it has been discussed extensively (possibly by different people) until nobody cares to discuss it anymore
Appeal to ridicule: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous
Argument from ignorance ("appeal to ignorance"): The fallacy of assuming that something is true/false because it has not been proven false/true. For example: "The student has failed to prove that he didn't cheat on the test, therefore he must have cheated on the test."
Begging the question ("petitio principii"): where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
Burden of proof: refers to the extent to which, or the level of rigour with which, it is necessary to establish, demonstrate or prove something for it to be accepted as true or reasonable to believe
Circular cause and consequence: where the consequence of the phenomenon is claimed to be its root cause
Continuum fallacy (fallacy of the beard): appears to demonstrate that two states or conditions cannot be considered distinct (or do not exist at all) because between them there exists a continuum of states. Correlation does not imply causation (cum hoc ergo propter hoc): a phrase used in the sciences and the statistics to emphasize that correlation between two variables does not imply that one causes the other
Equivocation (No true Scotsman): the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time)
Fallacies of distribution
Division: where one reasons logically that something true of a thing must also be true of all or some of its parts
Ecological fallacy: inferences about the nature of specific individuals are based solely upon aggregate statistics collected for the group to which those individuals belong
Fallacy of many questions (complex question, fallacy of presupposition, loaded question, plurium interrogationum): someone asks a question that presupposes something that has not been proven or accepted by all the people involved. This fallacy is often used rhetorically, so that the question limits direct replies to those that serve the questioner's agenda.
Fallacy of the single cause ("joint effect", or "causal oversimplification"): occurs when it is assumed that there is one, simple cause of an outcome when in reality it may have been caused by a number of only jointly sufficient causes.
False attribution: occurs when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument
contextomy (Fallacy of quoting out of context): refers to the selective excerpting of words from their original linguistic context in a way that distorts the source’s intended meaning
Historian's fallacy: occurs when one assumes that decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective and having the same information as those subsequently analyzing the decision. It is not to be confused with presentism, a mode of historical analysis in which present-day ideas (such as moral standards) are projected into the past.
Inconsistent comparison: where different methods of comparison are used, leaving one with a false impression of the whole comparison
Intentional fallacy: addresses the assumption that the meaning intended by the author of a literary work is of primary importance
Loki's Wager: the unreasonable insistence that a concept cannot be defined, and therefore cannot be discussed.
Moving the goalpost (raising the bar): argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded
Proof by verbosity (argumentum verbosium)
Prosecutor's fallacy: a low probability of false matches does not mean a low probability of some false match being found
Psychologist's fallacy: occurs when an observer presupposes the objectivity of his own perspective when analyzing a behavioral event
Reification (hypostatization): a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event or physical entity. In other words, it is the error of treating as a "real thing" something which is not a real thing, but merely an idea.
Special pleading: where a proponent of a position attempts to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule or principle without justifying the exemption
Cherry picking: act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position
Composition: where one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some (or even every) part of the whole
Misleading vividness: involves describing an occurrence in vivid detail, even if it is an exceptional occurrence, to convince someone that it is a problem
Overwhelming exception (hasty generalization): It is a generalization which is accurate, but comes with one or more qualifications which eliminate so many cases that what remains is much less impressive than the initial statement might have led one to assume
Spotlight fallacy: when a person uncritically assumes that all members or cases of a certain class or type are like those that receive the most attention or coverage in the media
Ad hominem: attacking the person instead of the argument. A form of this is reductio ad Hitlerum.
Argumentum ad baculum ("appeal to force", "appeal to the stick"): where an argument is made through coercion or threats of force towards an opposing party
Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people"): where a proposition is claimed to be true solely because many people believe it to be true
Association fallacy (guilt by association)
Appeal to authority: where an assertion is deemed true because of the position or authority of the person asserting it
Appeal to consequences: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument that concludes a premise is either true or false based on whether the premise leads to desirable or undesirable consequences for a particular party
Appeal to emotion: where an argument is made due to the manipulation of emotions, rather than the use of valid reasoning
Appeal to fear: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by increasing fear and prejudice towards the opposing side
Wishful thinking: a specific type of appeal to emotion where a decision is made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason
Appeal to spite: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made through exploiting people's bitterness or spite towards an opposing party
Appeal to motive: where a premise is dismissed, by calling into question the motives of its proposer
Appeal to novelty: where a proposal is claimed to be superior or better solely because it is new or modern
Argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio): a conclusion based on silence or lack of contrary evidence
Appeal to tradition: where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
Genetic fallacy: where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.
Straw man argument: based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position
Style over substance fallacy: occurs when one emphasizes the way in which the argument is presented, while marginalizing (or outright ignoring) the content of the argument
Texas sharpshooter fallacy: information that has no relationship is interpreted or manipulated until it appears to have meaning
Two wrongs make a right: occurs when it is assumed that if one wrong is committed, another wrong will cancel it out

There's 4 or 5 I didn't include because he'll use them when it comes to the ID is science part.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2009,11:12   

Bullshit.

Weapons-grade ignorance.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 28 2009,05:06   

I post this here, the two creation stories controversy has been adequately covered in the FL thread.

Literalists and apologetics ‘prove’ that the Bible is the word of God, infallible, and that all criticism is false. What else can they do? They are in the boat with FL; hellfire is no substitute for faith.

Quote
It is not my intention to attack the character of those who advocate the Documentary Hypothesis.  But the Bible Paul says in Rom. 1:18-21 that men suppress the truth of God's word in their unrighteousness.  This is what is happening here.  They are suppressing the truth.  They are devising elaborate methods to deny the inspiration and authenticity of the Bible, particularly the Pentateuch. Nevertheless, there are several issues worth examining when answering their claims.

This is funny! Suppression of truth; that is what literalism was built on.

TJM:
Quote
The names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John never appears in Justin Martyr’s extant work, written in mid-second century. However, a generation later, Irenaeus brings forward these four gospels as authoritative: ‘It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer that they are, for there are four zones of the world an four principal winds.’ (Quoted in Stevenson, J., (1957), 117.) As Lüdemann notes: Irrenaeus ‘artificial arguments- at least demonstrates that the idea was a novelty which needed defending. (Lüdemann, G., (1959), 196.) Likewise Justin has never heard of Acts or Paul, the hero of that book, whom he likewise never mentions), which turns up in Irenaeus for the first time c. 175CE. It is widely accepted that it was Marcion’s set of authoritative writings that spurred the Roman Literalists to establish their own canon. (See Price, R. M. (2000), 80)


The Gnostics claimed Paul was one of theirs, and Elaine Pagels wrote: “What interested the Gnostics far more than past events attributed to the ‘historical Jesus’, was the possibility of encountering the risen Christ in the Present.’

Further from TJM:
Quote
”Gibbon’s original intention in The Decline and fall of the Roman Empire was to end with the destruction of Rome by Alaric the Goth and his horde of ‘barbarians’ in 410CE. However, on discovering that Alaric was a Christian, the ‘barbarians’ were bands of Christian monks and it was Pagans who were hunted down and killed whilst Christians remained safe in their churches, Gibbon changed his plan. Instead he continued his work until the fall of the Holy Roman Empire at the Reformation.”

Since FL rely only on apologetic and creationist sources and thinking, ignoring or denying anything that stands between him and his salvation, he have no option but to think what he thinks and say what he says. A fundamental prerequisite for finding truth is at least to realize that absolute proof is not available – that the story of the origins of the canonical bible is not what the apologetics want us to believe.
Apologetics are as poor sources of truth about the Bible as are AiG or CMI sources of truth about not only evolution, but also about science in general – like cosmology, astronomy, geology, archaeology

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 28 2009,08:34   

In fairness to Floyd, he at least hasn't sold out.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 28 2009,09:07   

Quote (Amadan @ Oct. 28 2009,08:34)
In fairness to Floyd, he at least hasn't sold out.

Amen, brother Amadan...

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Jasper



Posts: 76
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2009,15:41   

I'm posting this here because the "debate" has finally moved on to ID and I don't want to disrupt the progress that's being made.

It should be pointed out that Floyd has constructed a strawman by merely stating that Ken Miller called humans "lucky accidents" in Finding Darwin's God.

Miller does acknowledge that the existence of humans is based on a series of contingent events in natural history, but he goes on to point out that each and every one of us is the result of such contingencies in human history.
   
Quote
The biological account of lucky historical contingencies that led to our own appearance on this planet is surely accurate. What does not follow is that a perceived lack of inevitability translates into something that we should regard as incompatibility with a divine will. To do so seriously underestimates God, even as this God is understood by the most conventional of Western religions.

Yes, the explosive diversification of life on this planet was an unpredictable process. But so were the rise of Western civilization, the collapse of the Roman Empire, and the winning number in last night's lottery. We do not regard the indeterminate nature of any of these events in human history as antithetical to the existence of a Creator; why should we regard similar events in natural history any differently? There is, I would submit, no reason at all. If we can view the contingent events in the families that produced our individual lives as consistent with a Creator, then certainly we can do the same for the chain of circumstances that produced our species.

The alternative is a world where all events have predictable outcomes, where the future is open neither to chance nor to independent human action. A world in which we would always evolve is a world in which we would never be free. To a believer, the particular history leading to us shows how truly remarkable we are, how rare is the gift of consciousness, and how precious is the chance to understand.

Source

In other words, contingent events are a part of our existence. They are built into the very fabric of the universe. If a Christian rejects the evolutionary history of life because it has involved unpredictable processes that could have resulted in a very different outcome, then those same Christians should also be required to reject all other scientific explanations that include unpredictable processes.

For instance, does the contingent nature of the sorting of chromosomes during meiosis mean that all humans are merely "lucky accidents" whose existence had nothing to do with the will of God?

Is the apparently "random" nature of the joining of egg and sperm during fertilization incompatible with the belief that human beings are knit together by God in their mothers' wombs?

As Miller explains in FDG, all of us can point to specific, life-changing events that--when we look back--appear to have been entirely "random" or "indeterminate." And yet, Christians of all stripes are willing to accept these small-scale contingencies as part of the process by which we came to exist.  I see no rational reason for Christians to reject evolution simply because it involves these same type of contingencies on a larger scale.

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2009,17:24   

Quote
If a Christian rejects the evolutionary history of life because it has involved unpredictable processes that could have resulted in a very different outcome, then those same Christians should also be required to reject all other scientific explanations that include unpredictable processes.

They ought at least thank God the Romans did not invent the guillotine...

____
ETA: That would of course have been the Pilatine.

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2009,19:37   

Jasper, you remind me of remarks that some Polish priest made about ID that got Dembski's knickers into a reef knot. As I recall, his point was that God as creator of the Universe was also the creator of the laws of logic, chance etc. I'm half a bottle into a rather good Rioja so I couldn't be arsed to look it up, but the point was that it is derogatory of God to suggest that His Ways can be fingerprinted by statistical finagling: God can act in ways that we perceive as random.

On the one hand, I was delighted to see Dembski get a dose of the Jesuits (my sons go/went to a Jesuit school and WOW are they good), but on the other it's sad that the argument is essentially the same as the Fastest Draw in the West ("Wanna see it? There it was, ya missed it")

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2009,19:45   

Quote (Quack @ Oct. 30 2009,17:24)
Quote
If a Christian rejects the evolutionary history of life because it has involved unpredictable processes that could have resulted in a very different outcome, then those same Christians should also be required to reject all other scientific explanations that include unpredictable processes.

They ought at least thank God the Romans did not invent the guillotine...

It's fascinating to speculate on what might have happened if Roman culture had lost its reverence for Greece. Technologists in the army never rose above what we might call non-commissioned rank (decurion) but, if their unquestionable ability had been allowed to develop capital, we might have seen the Industrial Revolution 1000 years earlier.

We probably need a new thread for this. Bullshit Hypotheses: All Comers Welcome (Bring Your Own Bottle)

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2009,22:19   

Quote
I'm posting this here because the "debate" has finally moved on to ID and I don't want to disrupt the progress that's being made.

Progress?!!?!???

Surely, you jest! :p

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Quote
but on the other it's sad that the argument is essentially the same as the Fastest Draw in the West ("Wanna see it? There it was, ya missed it")

Ah, like that guy on Blazing Saddles? :)

Henry

  
Jasper



Posts: 76
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2009,09:33   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 30 2009,23:19)
 
Quote
I'm posting this here because the "debate" has finally moved on to ID and I don't want to disrupt the progress that's being made.

Progress?!!?!???

Yes, I was being facetious.

I almost put that word in quotation marks.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2009,06:31   

Some Xtian Torture Pron admonitory guidance for Floyd.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2009,06:52   

Quote (Amadan @ Nov. 03 2009,06:31)
Some Xtian Torture Pron admonitory guidance for Floyd.

And it's all brought to you by a kind, loving god that hasn't seen fit to show up in 2000 years when there was a time that he was burning bushes and working miracles through his prophets every other day.

If it's Tuesday, there must be a prophet having little kids eaten by wild animals for laughing at his bald head or a leper getting healed by someone.

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Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,15:40   

There's not much point in keeping this thread open, either, so final thoughts would be appropriate.

I'll be closing this thread later this evening.

ETA: This thread may remain open after all, as a dumping ground for Floyd. Stay tuned.

Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 05 2009,16:46

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,16:03   

On the dead FL thread, OgreMkV wrote

   
Quote
heddle is using the same arguements that he used in 2004 at Panda's Thumb.  I killed the link, but search in the archive for 'Priviliged Planet'.


Is that a criticism? The point remains that their basic premise that a planet that supports complex life will be a good observation platform is quite possibly correct. And as I said, in some cases it is, in my opinion, obvious. It is not, as they claim, falsifiable in a scientific sense. But, like multiple universes, it still might be right. What it is not is dismissible out of hand as nonsense. I asked for a rebuttal of one example: low ambient radiation and no nearby supernovae => we live in a low density region of the galaxy => nice dark sky => astronomy and cosmology possible.

To me that is borderline obvious, with no religious or ID implications required.

So—again—is it a criticism that I am saying what I said in 2004? (if I am—though I thought my arguments changed pretty much on a yearly basis—but let's assume I am—Yes, I’ve been a pretty consistent supporter of the main claim of the PP.)

   
Quote
You'd think in 5 years, someone would come up with a testable experiment to differentiate between a specifically designed universe and one that is not specifically designed.  


And that can't be a criticism aimed at me since I never claimed cosmological ID was science. So my response is—I wouldn't think so at all—I’d be surprised if someone had.

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&^^%$^$!!! Lou I was constructing a big post complete with proofs, theorems, axioms, corollaries and my personal favorite: anomalies-- only to be locked out.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,16:10   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2009,17:03)
&^^%$^$!!! Lou I was constructing a big post complete with proofs, theorems, axioms, corollaries and my personal favorite: anomalies-- only to be locked out.

Sorry. I always worry about that when I'm closing a thread.

I'd be interested in seeing it here anyway.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,16:21   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 05 2009,16:10)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2009,17:03)
&^^%$^$!!! Lou I was constructing a big post complete with proofs, theorems, axioms, corollaries and my personal favorite: anomalies-- only to be locked out.

Sorry. I always worry about that when I'm closing a thread.

I'd be interested in seeing it here anyway.

Too late it's all lost. Although my original proofs are in the margins of my notebook--now where is that...

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,16:27   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2009,17:21)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 05 2009,16:10)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2009,17:03)
&^^%$^$!!! Lou I was constructing a big post complete with proofs, theorems, axioms, corollaries and my personal favorite: anomalies-- only to be locked out.

Sorry. I always worry about that when I'm closing a thread.

I'd be interested in seeing it here anyway.

Too late it's all lost. Although my original proofs are in the margins of my notebook--now where is that...

Geez, good thing the long-sought Theory of Everything wasn't ...

you're going to tell me that's in the notebook, aren't you?

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,16:31   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 05 2009,16:27)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2009,17:21)
   
Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 05 2009,16:10)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2009,17:03)
&^^%$^$!!! Lou I was constructing a big post complete with proofs, theorems, axioms, corollaries and my personal favorite: anomalies-- only to be locked out.

Sorry. I always worry about that when I'm closing a thread.

I'd be interested in seeing it here anyway.

Too late it's all lost. Although my original proofs are in the margins of my notebook--now where is that...

Geez, good thing the long-sought Theory of Everything wasn't ...

you're going to tell me that's in the notebook, aren't you?

Don't worry it was only the Theory of Mostly Everything. Explanations for "The Richard Hughes Catastrophe" and "The Evolution of J-Dog" were not included.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,16:43   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2009,16:21)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 05 2009,16:10)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2009,17:03)
&^^%$^$!!! Lou I was constructing a big post complete with proofs, theorems, axioms, corollaries and my personal favorite: anomalies-- only to be locked out.

Sorry. I always worry about that when I'm closing a thread.

I'd be interested in seeing it here anyway.

Too late it's all lost. Although my original proofs are in the margins of my notebook--now where is that...

I think some guy named Andy Wiles found it. He's now basking in the glory that was rightfully yours, the bastard. You should sue him first, then skip to my Lou.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,17:18   

Hypothetically, what if octopuses had built a civilization on the sea floor but never acquired the hobby of looking at the night sky? (After all, they'd need instruments for observations that we can make by eyeball.) What would that do to the observability/habitability correlation?

To me that sounds like something that could happen on an Earth-like planet, even if it didn't on this one.

Henry

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,17:43   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2009,17:18)
Hypothetically, what if octopuses had built a civilization on the sea floor but never acquired the hobby of looking at the night sky? (After all, they'd need instruments for observations that we can make by eyeball.) What would that do to the observability/habitability correlation?

To me that sounds like something that could happen on an Earth-like planet, even if it didn't on this one.

Henry

Being able to see into space is only "privileged" if you consider astronomy and space exploration to be of value.  It has nothing to do with life or anything else.  But the argument seems to be that it's not the habitability issue, but rather "oh, it's so amazing that we can see the stars, so everything must have been done to allow that" - without assuming things like the octipoids would say "oh, how incredible it is that we can explore the deepest depths of the world-ocean, so everything must have been set up to allow us to do that."

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,18:27   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2009,17:18)
Hypothetically, what if octopuses had built a civilization on the sea floor but never acquired the hobby of looking at the night sky? (After all, they'd need instruments for observations that we can make by eyeball.) What would that do to the observability/habitability correlation?

To me that sounds like something that could happen on an Earth-like planet, even if it didn't on this one.

Henry

It wouldn't negate their argument. Because the earth would still be a good platform for observation--even if the race of octopuses never took advantage of it.

The argument is not anthropomorphic at all. It is not that the planet is designed for people to do science--that's Hugh Ross's argument--and that is an ID argument--but their argument is quite different—in opposition, really. Their argument is that the habitability brings the observability along for the ride--no design required--making no comment as to whether the planet will actually support life that takes advantage of the observability.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,19:14   

... which seems to imply that their point is about as significant as stating that life can only develop on round planets. Or have I missed something again?

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,19:28   

Akshully, my astronomical magisterium* leads me to recall that our Sun, while dragging us around the Galaxy, runs through clouds of dust and gas that would greatly reduce the observable Universe (at least in most spectra). This would not affect the suitability of this Earth for life. Conversely, even without dust clouds etc, there are mind-buggering** amounts of the Universe that we simply can't observe. So why are any statements about observability from Here in any way meaningful in this context, let alone in terms of correlation with the possibility of us evolving as we [think we] have?



* Sufficient to give the kids a master-class in profanity while I fail to locate the Andromeda galaxy in my bottom-of-the-range scope.

** Thank you Douglas Adams. We miss you.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,21:34   

Heddle, thank you.  You have at least understood that the whole argument is not science.  

I still disagree because I still think you're confusing cause and effect and correlation.  

Let's try this example:  I'm playing 5 card draw with a bunch of 19 year old cheerleaders (for obvious antes).  I pick up my hand and I've got Ah, Ad, As, Ac, Kd.  What are the odds that I drew that hand?  

The odds of being dealt any four of a kind is 0.0015%.  4 aces would be 1/13 of that.  So the odds that I drew that hand are 0.00012 (roughly), right?

Wrong.  The odds that I drew that hand are 100%, because I did.  

The 'specialness' of that hand is only because it has meaning for me and the lovelies I'm playing cards with.  The rareness of the hand is the same as getting 6h, 3d, 7s, Jc, 2h.  That hand just isn't special so we don't care.

Same thing with the universe.  The only reason that this one is 'special' is because we are in it to look for meaning.  Any special properties that we assign to this universe are completely independent of the universe itself.  

Personally speaking, I feel sorry for the universe (and the designer) if we are the end result of the design.  The poor alien/godling/programmer probably failed its design class.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2009,22:10   

dheddle,
Quote
Their argument is that the habitability brings the observability along for the ride -- no design required -- making no comment as to whether the planet will actually support life that takes advantage of the observability.

Sounds like an interesting speculation, but if that's all that's being said it doesn't sound like a big deal, either, since it doesn't appear to conflict with anything.

Amadan,
Quote
our Sun, while dragging us around the Galaxy, runs through clouds of dust and gas that would greatly reduce the observable Universe (at least in most spectra).

That reminds me of something - I read someplace that our Sun bobs up and down relative to the galactic plane, while it drags us around. So every so often the Earth is outside the more populated portion of the galaxy, which exposes it to stuff from the center that normally doesn't get here. I don't recall how often it said that happens. But it also occurs to me now that such a position would improve visibility (of more distant stuff) for a time, until the solar system moves back into the galactic arm.

Henry

  
Constant Mews



Posts: 323
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2009,00:10   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2009,18:27)
Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2009,17:18)
Hypothetically, what if octopuses had built a civilization on the sea floor but never acquired the hobby of looking at the night sky? (After all, they'd need instruments for observations that we can make by eyeball.) What would that do to the observability/habitability correlation?

To me that sounds like something that could happen on an Earth-like planet, even if it didn't on this one.

Henry

It wouldn't negate their argument. Because the earth would still be a good platform for observation--even if the race of octopuses never took advantage of it.

The argument is not anthropomorphic at all. It is not that the planet is designed for people to do science--that's Hugh Ross's argument--and that is an ID argument--but their argument is quite different—in opposition, really. Their argument is that the habitability brings the observability along for the ride--no design required--making no comment as to whether the planet will actually support life that takes advantage of the observability.

But then their argument lacks force: if the sole contention is that habitability implies observational capacity, they have not established this; merely commented on the single sample they have available.

  
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