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Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2014,11:01   

Denyse complains that kids are being taught about evolution using parables about animals that don't exist. She doesn't spot the problem this complaint would create for Christianity (even for people who are Christians).

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5287
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2014,11:07   

Quote (Bob O'H @ June 15 2014,11:01)
Denyse complains that kids are being taught about evolution using parables about animals that don't exist. She doesn't spot the problem this complaint would create for Christianity (even for people who are Christians).

Damn.  All those math word problems we did in grade school using hypothetical trains going hypothetical velocities and hypothetical people dividing up hypothetical fruit into fractions.

Lies!  It was all lies!

:D  :D  :D

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2014,20:22   

Quote (Bob O'H @ June 15 2014,09:01)
Denyse complains that kids are being taught about evolution using parables about animals that don't exist. She doesn't spot the problem this complaint would create for Christianity (even for people who are Christians).

LOL:

Quote
BM40:

Come on News. It’s not as if the authors equated Wolves and Thylacines or claimed that protein structures and Han characters are analogous.


--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
timothya



Posts: 280
Joined: April 2013

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2014,03:01   

KF enlarges on his particular form of dualism:
Quote
PS: For those pondering the malevolent supernatural, all I will say is that I have personally and in company of dozens, seen that in action in violation of known physics; and I mean basic reliable laws. Things I used to laugh at when as a kid I saw on cartoon Saturdays, I no longer find so funny . . . I begin to wonder about just what lies behind some of those cartoons. I cannot deny what I have indisputably seen under circumstances that make convergent mass hallucination from multiple perspectives by people of diverse backgrounds etc essentially a non-starter, and have had to deal with and process those facts. I think we had better begin to think about a world of oracles that can interface with MIMO cybernetic entities, sometimes in very strange ways. Whether or no this sits comfortably with a nice mid-C20 smugly “scientific” mindset.

I wonder what it could have been?

--------------
"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread." Anatole France

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2014,06:25   

Quote (timothya @ June 16 2014,09:01)
KF enlarges on his particular form of dualism:
   
Quote
PS: For those pondering the malevolent supernatural, all I will say is that I have personally and in company of dozens, seen that in action in violation of known physics; and I mean basic reliable laws. Things I used to laugh at when as a kid I saw on cartoon Saturdays, I no longer find so funny . . . I begin to wonder about just what lies behind some of those cartoons. I cannot deny what I have indisputably seen under circumstances that make convergent mass hallucination from multiple perspectives by people of diverse backgrounds etc essentially a non-starter, and have had to deal with and process those facts. I think we had better begin to think about a world of oracles that can interface with MIMO cybernetic entities, sometimes in very strange ways. Whether or no this sits comfortably with a nice mid-C20 smugly “scientific” mindset.

I wonder what it could have been?

A transvestite.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2014,08:08   

Quote (Woodbine @ June 16 2014,06:25)
Quote (timothya @ June 16 2014,09:01)
KF enlarges on his particular form of dualism:
     
Quote
PS: For those pondering the malevolent supernatural, all I will say is that I have personally and in company of dozens, seen that in action in violation of known physics; and I mean basic reliable laws. Things I used to laugh at when as a kid I saw on cartoon Saturdays, I no longer find so funny . . . I begin to wonder about just what lies behind some of those cartoons. I cannot deny what I have indisputably seen under circumstances that make convergent mass hallucination from multiple perspectives by people of diverse backgrounds etc essentially a non-starter, and have had to deal with and process those facts. I think we had better begin to think about a world of oracles that can interface with MIMO cybernetic entities, sometimes in very strange ways. Whether or no this sits comfortably with a nice mid-C20 smugly “scientific” mindset.

I wonder what it could have been?

A transvestite.

Perhaps it was Roy:

"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe... [contemptuous laugh] Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those... moments... will be lost in time, like [small cough] tears... in... rain. Time... to die..."

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2014,11:01   

There's not a single denizen of UD who'd pass the Voigt Kampf test.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2014,12:04   

"Bornagain, it was a simple question about a turtle on its back. Where your 17-page reply came from I have no idea."

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2014,12:17   

Quote (stevestory @ June 16 2014,12:04)
"Bornagain, it was a simple question about a turtle on its back. Where your 17-page reply came from I have no idea."

A friend of mine wrote this about his paper grading season.

Quote

"This answer is so perpendicular to sense that I reflexively checked the page number to make sure I had not inadvertently been looking at a totally different question. From a different course's exam. Possibly cryptography."


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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2014,12:39   

Denyse scores a bit of an "own-goal" with respect to plant evolution.

At http://www.uncommondescent.com/plants.....flowers , she quotes an article in Slate ( http://www.slate.com/article....er.html ), which in turn reports findings in Science last December ( http://www.sciencemag.org/content....ull.pdf ) about the New Caldonian plant Amborella, which is thought to be the most primitive living angiosperm      
Quote
 Amborella is in a confused state when it comes to sex, as if transitioning from gymnosperm to angiosperm anatomy. It has separate male and female organs on the same plant, like a conifer. The male flowers have stamens only, but they don’t look like modern stamens—that is, with filaments topped with two pollen-bearing sacs. Instead, the two pollen sacs are carried on the edge of flat and broad petals that look very much like the scales in male conifer cones. But they also have flowers that look like hermaphrodites, with both carpels and stamens. These stamens, however, are sterile, making them staminodes.


This is truly cool.  Gymnosperms don't have flowers, so the male Amborella flower is sort of partway between gymnosperm cones and angiosperm flowers.  However, the female flowers are much more flowerlike, in having both carpels and stamens (even if sterile).  Amborella also has primitive xylem (with tracheids like gymnosperms, but without vessel cells, unlike other angiosperms).

The Science articles show all kinds of great stuff: massive horizontal gene transfer, suppression of gene duplication machinery in Amborella after the initial gene duplication, and yes, evidence for a whole-genome duplication shortly before the rest of flowering plants split from the Amborella lineage.  

In contrast, Denyse opines cluelessly,
   
Quote
Yet they became “instant winners in the survival game.”

Right. Same time. Next year. New theory.

We are obviously missing something.  


What she (not we) is missing is the importance of wholesale genome duplications, which she does not discuss beyond referring to it in the title of her piece.  This is known to be really important in the evolution of flowering plants.  The Slate article, as Denyse would have discovered had she bothered to read it and understand it, explains,    
Quote
Plants with multiple copies are called polyploids, and tend to be larger, have more complex flowers, and bear bigger fruits than their genomically less endowed relatives. Humans have shaped plant evolution by selecting polyploid plants for cultivation. Modern garden strawberries, for example, are octoploids, and some have berries so large they need to be cut in quarters to be eaten, while their wild relatives are diploid or at most tetraploid and have berries the size of a pea. Plant breeders often propagate garden flowers with doubled genomes to produce double the usual number of petals. In the era just before the amborella emerged, however, a doubled genome simply meant a new plasticity for basic forms and functions. That plasticity was critical to evolving leaves into colorful petals and into sepals, the leaves that protect unopened buds. Gene redundancy also was a factor in developing male and female organs in the same flower.
 

The Science paper (which provided proof of whole-genome duplication through sequencing the entire genome, rather than just hypothesizing it) says,    
Quote
Previous examinations of plant genomes have shown that polyploidy has been a prominent feature in the evolutionary history of angiosperms and that WGD events have had major impacts on genome structure and gene family evolution


Denyse concludes,    
Quote
If whole genome duplication performs such wonders, the world would doubtless look very different.
Well, yes, if whole genome duplications had been important to angiosperm evolution we might anticipate that instead of having our comparatively uniform global forest of conifers and ferns, we might have ended up with a tumult of bizarre and diverse colorful plants with flowers and things called fruits and seeds, ranging from waterlilies to oak trees to sumacs to crabgrass to roses to bamboo to orchids to mangroves to strangler figs to pumpkins to turtle grass to coconut palms.  Who could possibly imagine such a world?

Not incidentally, the Amborella line has not had any new whole-genome duplications, and ended up with just Amborella, while the Austrobaileyales lineage, which has been much more tolerant of genome duplications, ended up with arguably 400,000 species.


Lastly, the Science paper also discovered that    
Quote
....genes involved in flower development [...] have homologs in other seed plants. The study concludes that orthologs of most floral genes existed long before their specific roles were established in flowering, and they were later co-opted to serve floral functions.
No, no evolution here, at least not for those with intellectual blinders large enough to ignore pretty much everything in all the articles cited.

See also
http://newcaledoniaplants.com/amborel....chopoda
http://www.sciencemag.org/content....ull.pdf
http://www.sciencemag.org/content....ull.pdf

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2014,16:09   

N. Wells - Thanks for really digging into this.  Unlike Densey, you've really blossomed as a writer!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
hotshoe



Posts: 42
Joined: Nov. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: June 18 2014,22:23   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 16 2014,08:08)
Quote (Woodbine @ June 16 2014,06:25)
 
Quote (timothya @ June 16 2014,09:01)
KF enlarges on his particular form of dualism:
       
Quote
PS: For those pondering the malevolent supernatural, all I will say is that I have personally and in company of dozens, seen that in action in violation of known physics; and I mean basic reliable laws. Things I used to laugh at when as a kid I saw on cartoon Saturdays, I no longer find so funny . . . I begin to wonder about just what lies behind some of those cartoons. I cannot deny what I have indisputably seen under circumstances that make convergent mass hallucination from multiple perspectives by people of diverse backgrounds etc essentially a non-starter, and have had to deal with and process those facts. I think we had better begin to think about a world of oracles that can interface with MIMO cybernetic entities, sometimes in very strange ways. Whether or no this sits comfortably with a nice mid-C20 smugly “scientific” mindset.

I wonder what it could have been?

A transvestite.

Perhaps it was Roy:

"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe... [contemptuous laugh] Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those... moments... will be lost in time, like [small cough] tears... in... rain. Time... to die..."

Did you know that this soliloquy gets a whole page article on wikipedia?  

I would never have guessed.

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 18 2014,23:48   

Quote (hotshoe @ June 18 2014,20:23)
Quote (Doc Bill @ June 16 2014,08:08)
 
Quote (Woodbine @ June 16 2014,06:25)
 
Quote (timothya @ June 16 2014,09:01)
KF enlarges on his particular form of dualism:
       
Quote
PS: For those pondering the malevolent supernatural, all I will say is that I have personally and in company of dozens, seen that in action in violation of known physics; and I mean basic reliable laws. Things I used to laugh at when as a kid I saw on cartoon Saturdays, I no longer find so funny . . . I begin to wonder about just what lies behind some of those cartoons. I cannot deny what I have indisputably seen under circumstances that make convergent mass hallucination from multiple perspectives by people of diverse backgrounds etc essentially a non-starter, and have had to deal with and process those facts. I think we had better begin to think about a world of oracles that can interface with MIMO cybernetic entities, sometimes in very strange ways. Whether or no this sits comfortably with a nice mid-C20 smugly “scientific” mindset.

I wonder what it could have been?

A transvestite.

Perhaps it was Roy:

"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe... [contemptuous laugh] Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those... moments... will be lost in time, like [small cough] tears... in... rain. Time... to die..."

Did you know that this soliloquy gets a whole page article on wikipedia?  

I would never have guessed.

It's one of the most famous ones in cinema.

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 19 2014,10:49   

Quote (didymos @ June 18 2014,23:48)
Quote (hotshoe @ June 18 2014,20:23)
Quote (Doc Bill @ June 16 2014,08:08)
 
Quote (Woodbine @ June 16 2014,06:25)
   
Quote (timothya @ June 16 2014,09:01)
KF enlarges on his particular form of dualism:
         
Quote
PS: For those pondering the malevolent supernatural, all I will say is that I have personally and in company of dozens, seen that in action in violation of known physics; and I mean basic reliable laws. Things I used to laugh at when as a kid I saw on cartoon Saturdays, I no longer find so funny . . . I begin to wonder about just what lies behind some of those cartoons. I cannot deny what I have indisputably seen under circumstances that make convergent mass hallucination from multiple perspectives by people of diverse backgrounds etc essentially a non-starter, and have had to deal with and process those facts. I think we had better begin to think about a world of oracles that can interface with MIMO cybernetic entities, sometimes in very strange ways. Whether or no this sits comfortably with a nice mid-C20 smugly “scientific” mindset.

I wonder what it could have been?

A transvestite.

Perhaps it was Roy:

"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe... [contemptuous laugh] Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those... moments... will be lost in time, like [small cough] tears... in... rain. Time... to die..."

Did you know that this soliloquy gets a whole page article on wikipedia?  

I would never have guessed.

It's one of the most famous ones in cinema.

It was (is) an important film for me.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 19 2014,11:12   

mee too.

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 20 2014,10:40   

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 19 2014,11:49)
Quote (didymos @ June 18 2014,23:48)
 
Quote (hotshoe @ June 18 2014,20:23)
 
Quote (Doc Bill @ June 16 2014,08:08)
   
Quote (Woodbine @ June 16 2014,06:25)
     
Quote (timothya @ June 16 2014,09:01)
KF enlarges on his particular form of dualism:
           
Quote
PS: For those pondering the malevolent supernatural, all I will say is that I have personally and in company of dozens, seen that in action in violation of known physics; and I mean basic reliable laws. Things I used to laugh at when as a kid I saw on cartoon Saturdays, I no longer find so funny . . . I begin to wonder about just what lies behind some of those cartoons. I cannot deny what I have indisputably seen under circumstances that make convergent mass hallucination from multiple perspectives by people of diverse backgrounds etc essentially a non-starter, and have had to deal with and process those facts. I think we had better begin to think about a world of oracles that can interface with MIMO cybernetic entities, sometimes in very strange ways. Whether or no this sits comfortably with a nice mid-C20 smugly “scientific” mindset.

I wonder what it could have been?

A transvestite.

Perhaps it was Roy:

"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe... [contemptuous laugh] Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those... moments... will be lost in time, like [small cough] tears... in... rain. Time... to die..."

Did you know that this soliloquy gets a whole page article on wikipedia?  

I would never have guessed.

It's one of the most famous ones in cinema.

It was (is) an important film for me.

I've read that Rutger Hauer improvised "like tears in rain" on the set, camera rolling.

God I love that movie. The recent director's cut/enhancement is tasteful and wonderful. Among other subtle changes, it substitutes a background that blends with the other cityscapes Dykstra constructed rather than the completely inappropriate '60s industrial building and stack seen behind Hauer during that soliloquy.

Most of the other changes are slight digital corrections, such as removing the obvious cables that lift the full size, 2 ton spinner mockup in an early scene.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 20 2014,14:19   

I remain unconvinced that memories are separable from the neurons and connections that embody them, but the movie isn't really about technology.

It merely reinforces the thought that technology doesn't solve the problems of inhumanity.

Spielberg's AI is similar in theme. Cut by someone else it might be as good. It certainly has good moments.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 20 2014,16:55   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ June 20 2014,16:40)
God I love that movie. The recent director's cut/enhancement is tasteful and wonderful. Among other subtle changes, it substitutes a background that blends with the other cityscapes Dykstra constructed rather than the completely inappropriate '60s industrial building and stack seen behind Hauer during that soliloquy.

Most of the other changes are slight digital corrections, such as removing the obvious cables that lift the full size, 2 ton spinner mockup in an early scene.

I'm a huge fan of both book and film. But I maintain the (re)insertion of the unicorn scene in the film diminishes it somewhat. It sacrifices the core ambiguity of the narrative (Deckard's nature) for a cheap M. Night Shyamalanesque 'twist' at the end that leaves us in no doubt.

In contrast the book finds Deckard gradually doubting his humanity as he carries out his task. By the end the question of whether or not he is an android is more or less resolved but unlike the film it's a realization that's been earned rather than just a 'Aha!' moment.

But yeah, love them both.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 20 2014,22:38   

Quote (Woodbine @ June 20 2014,14:55)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ June 20 2014,16:40)
God I love that movie. The recent director's cut/enhancement is tasteful and wonderful. Among other subtle changes, it substitutes a background that blends with the other cityscapes Dykstra constructed rather than the completely inappropriate '60s industrial building and stack seen behind Hauer during that soliloquy.

Most of the other changes are slight digital corrections, such as removing the obvious cables that lift the full size, 2 ton spinner mockup in an early scene.

I'm a huge fan of both book and film. But I maintain the (re)insertion of the unicorn scene in the film diminishes it somewhat. It sacrifices the core ambiguity of the narrative (Deckard's nature) for a cheap M. Night Shyamalanesque 'twist' at the end that leaves us in no doubt.

In contrast the book finds Deckard gradually doubting his humanity as he carries out his task. By the end the question of whether or not he is an android is more or less resolved but unlike the film it's a realization that's been earned rather than just a 'Aha!' moment.

But yeah, love them both.

hear hear. The unicorn goes.

Also this incongruity:

"You like our owl?"
"It's artificial?"
"Of course."
"Must be expensive."
"Very."

Vs:

"Is that a real snake?"
"Of course it's not real. You think I'd be working in a place like this if I could afford a real snake?"



So... fake owls are more expensive but fake snakes are cheaper.  Or fake owls are more expensive that fake snakes. or fakes are expensive but reals are *more* expensive. Or something.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 20 2014,23:34   

In the book it tells us that the toxic fallout from World War Terminus wiped out most animal life; and it was the owls (for reasons unknown) that succumbed first.
     
Quote
First, strangely, the owls had died. At the time it had seemed almost funny, the fat, fluffy white birds lying here and there, in yards and on streets; coming out no earlier than twilight as they had while alive the owls escaped notice.

Perhaps because of their notable demise artificial owls command higher prices than other less culturally significant species.

But most likely the script writers never gave it a second thought... :)

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 659
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2014,01:14   

Quote (Woodbine @ June 20 2014,22:55)

I'm a huge fan of both book and film. But I maintain the (re)insertion of the unicorn scene in the film diminishes it somewhat. It sacrifices the core ambiguity of the narrative (Deckard's nature) for a cheap M. Night Shyamalanesque 'twist' at the end that leaves us in no doubt.

See also: Shawshank Redemption. Not a twist, but the story's great ending, a rumination on hope, vs that silly join-the-dots beach scene. Hey! turns out they did!

--------------
SoapySam is a pathetic asswiper. Joe G

BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

  
timothya



Posts: 280
Joined: April 2013

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2014,03:54   

Upon UD's methods for measuring gravity, Kairosfocus has this to say:
   
Quote
News: Non-overlapping error bars point to systematic errors in measurement approaches. The torsion experiments and the cold atom experiments agree in the first three significant figures, 6.67 * 10^-11 N m^2 kg^-2, not a high precision, but maybe we have to live with that until we figure out more clearly underlying issues with how we set out to measure. Reminds me of the old saying that structures fail by their weakest mechanism, usually the one no one had figured out — we need to ask ourselves hard as to whether we are overlooking something. It is likely that we need to remember that in was it the 1920′s, there were values for atomic etc weights that were thought to be known to certain error bars but later experiments showed errors beyond the error bars. So, we need to wait until we understand more closely what is biasing the experiments, whether the old style torsion balance ones (notoriously ticklish to work with as anyone who has used a ballistic galvanometer will recall) or the new ones (which sound even more ticklish and subject to thermodynamics noise effects hence the big chill involved). And, the root issue is a fight for more decimals in agreement. KF

Apparently, Montserrat is a hotbed of experimental physics.

Good to hear.

--------------
"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread." Anatole France

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2014,19:29   

Quote (Woodbine @ June 20 2014,17:55)
   
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ June 20 2014,16:40)
God I love that movie. The recent director's cut/enhancement is tasteful and wonderful. Among other subtle changes, it substitutes a background that blends with the other cityscapes Dykstra constructed rather than the completely inappropriate '60s industrial building and stack seen behind Hauer during that soliloquy.

Most of the other changes are slight digital corrections, such as removing the obvious cables that lift the full size, 2 ton spinner mockup in an early scene.

I'm a huge fan of both book and film. But I maintain the (re)insertion of the unicorn scene in the film diminishes it somewhat. It sacrifices the core ambiguity of the narrative (Deckard's nature) for a cheap M. Night Shyamalanesque 'twist' at the end that leaves us in no doubt.

In contrast the book finds Deckard gradually doubting his humanity as he carries out his task. By the end the question of whether or not he is an android is more or less resolved but unlike the film it's a realization that's been earned rather than just a 'Aha!' moment.

But yeah, love them both.

Yes, but removal of the voice-over, and the drive to the Overlook Hotel, enable me to forgive entire herds of unicorns.

Plus: I'm pretty dense, and it didn't occur to me for years that Deckard might be a replicant.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2014,19:31   

Quote (Soapy Sam @ June 21 2014,02:14)
Hey! turns out they did!

Wait...what?

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 659
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2014,06:00   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ June 22 2014,01:31)
Quote (Soapy Sam @ June 21 2014,02:14)
Hey! turns out they did!

Wait...what?

Oh shit. Spoiler alert. Ignore me.

--------------
SoapySam is a pathetic asswiper. Joe G

BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 23 2014,01:26   

They come, and they try...

   
Quote
37
Moose DrJune 22, 2014 at 9:57 pm

Dan Graur,
Thanks for the post. I am an experienced, patented, software developer who has written about 80 megabytes of code (compiled, discluding the automatically included libraries). I know what 80 megabytes of efficiently written code doesn’t come close to making a human.

Even when I look at the 800 megabytes that make of the total of DNA, I find it amazing, unfathomable, that it can make a human. When I look at some of the things DNA does, some of the ingenious data compression technologies (I think there are about 20,000 coding genes, but about 100,000 different kinds of proteins) I just marvel.

Then I talk to bozos that doesn’t even understand that the DNA is the code for a cybercomputer. They seem to think that not only is this amazing computer developed by random chance twiddling, but that every change along the way must, well, compile, and must produce an organism at least as good as its predecessor. Well, no.

The day I can produce code that comes close to the class of that found in the simplest bacteria is the day people flock to me to learn how it is done. (I stick letters in a bottle and shake it, yup.)

...but they cannot get close to The Master. Come back Gil!

Also: you lot and your professed love of that movie - pffft - I went and named a London shop after it!

Edited by Ptaylor on June 23 2014,20:29

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We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 23 2014,09:51   

Quote (Ptaylor @ June 23 2014,02:26)
Quote

Then I talk to bozos that doesn’t even understand that the DNA is the code for a cybercomputer. They seem to think that not only is this amazing computer developed by random chance twiddling, but that every change along the way must, well, compile, and must produce an organism at least as good as its predecessor. Well, no.

Is he saying someone out there believes

A) every change to DNA creates a functional organism?

or

B) Every change present in an ancestor created a functional organism?

Part II:

Is he saying that according to evolution, fitness is a monotonically increasing function?

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 23 2014,16:00   

80 megabytes "seems" too small to 'specify' a human.

No science, discoveries, experiments, just, you know, intuition.

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 23 2014,16:17   

Quote (stevestory @ June 23 2014,14:00)
80 megabytes "seems" too small to 'specify' a human.

No science, discoveries, experiments, just, you know, intuition.

Not just intuition, Steve.  Engineering intuition.  So it must be correct.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
rossum



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 23 2014,16:27   

Quote (Ptaylor @ June 23 2014,01:26)
Moose DrJune 22, 2014 at 9:57 pm

They seem to think that not only is this amazing computer developed by random chance twiddling, but that every change along the way must, well, compile,

Erm...  Yes, every change does 'compile' into a protein sequence, even if it is the null sequence.  Every codon compiles, i.e. is recognised.  There is no codon sequence that does not code for the equivalent sequence of proteins.

Every DNA sequence compiles.  This guy may know computing, but he does not know biology.  Colour me unsurprised.

rossum

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The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

  
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