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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > For the love of Avocationist

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"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,19:42    Quote (Chris Hyland @ Feb. 01 2007,13:15) Quote Kick start to help Avocationist: My theory of intelligent design checklist goes: (snip) I've always more or less condensed this down into: (1) what did the designer do, specifically? (2) what mechanisms did the designer use to do whatever the heck it is you think it did? (3) where can we see the designer using these mechanisms today to do . . . well . . . anything? Alas, never got any intelligible answers, other than various versions of (1) "Jesus saves!!!!!!!!" and (2) "I don't have to tell you". For the past ten years, all of the various argumehnts for teaching ID "theory" have boiled down to: (1) we think there's a designer (2) we don't know what it is (wink, wink) (3) we don't know what it does (4) we don't know how it does it, and (5) we don't know how to go about answering any of those questions, but (6) we want you to teach about it anyway (shrug) -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,19:47    Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Feb. 02 2007,02:42) Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 01 2007,14:12) Anyway, I do think Lenny can be too abrupt. But I can understand why. Let's be fair. Any creationist is free to answer back and dispute him (Lenny) on this forum. Ever wonder why most (creationists) just run away? Y'all seem to be laboring under the misconception that creationists come here to make arguments and carry on discussions and respond to questions.  They, uh, don't.  If they DID, they would  . . . well . . .  ya know, actually present arguments and discuss things and answer questions.  They, uh, don't.  It's not why they are here.  They come here to pick a fight and feed their massive martyr complexes.  That's why they never respond to polite people and always respond to "rude" people.  They enjoy congratulating themselves over how "oppressed" they are. They should all thank me for giving them exactly what they want.  (shrug) As an aside, a very good cyber-friend of mine actually did that experiment himself.  Over a period of several months, whenever a new creationist appeared -- in an email list we were both on --- he would flip a coin.  If it came up heads, he responded politely. If it came up tails, he was harsh and brusque and swore a lot.  Guess when he got the most responses? Go on, take a guess . . . .   I encourage others to duplicate that experiment and replicate the results for themselves. Lenny is 100% correct. The only reason creationists today are even able to engage in a conversation with a sane person is the postmodernist idea that all ideas are equal and deserve equal time regardless of the provenance of the idea AND the permission to promote that false idea society gives to essentially Theofacist identity politics. Creationists are every single one to the last drop COMPLETELY AND UTERLY INSANE and are no different to the 9/11 bombers...they believe the biggest lie ever told. To draw you into their magical reality; in an attempt to get you to see the world as they do, they practice the most obsequious  form of false politeness and quisling behavior it makes me want to vomit. By being polite to them you further their cause because you remove opposition to their logical fallacy of argumentum ad infinitum. All they have to do is be polite, nothing else, to them victory will be no noisy cranky opposition. Anyone who thinks that being polite to a Theofacist will stop them, is living in fantasy land. -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,20:10    k.e. Quote By being polite to them you further their cause because you remove opposition to their logical fallacy of argumentum ad infinitum. All they have to do is be polite, nothing else, to them victory will be no noisy cranky opposition. Anyone who thinks that being polite to a Theofacist will stop them, is living in fantasy land. But according to Lenny, being rude feeds their sense of martyrdom. They win either way. So why not do the right thing? -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,20:27    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Feb. 01 2007,20:10) So why not do the right thing? I do. I point out, bluntly, how nutty they are. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Steviepinhead Posts: 532 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,20:29    Oh, GoP, you're so right, ahem, pun intended.  We have indeed been so wrong, so uncivil, so blindly ... lefty! Well, dammit then, the only onnabull thing to do is step right up and say something, er, ah, civil, doncha know! Here goes: say, Ghosty, I been meaning to tellya, that that highlight on the right side of your forehead is ever so fetchin', ol' bean.  However does your avatarial batman manage that effect?  By all means, do have your batman get in touch with my batman, so that they may bat the matter 'round... Feel all better now, chief?

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,20:33    well, i dunno about gawp, but I sure do. :p -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,20:35    Quote (Steviepinhead @ Feb. 01 2007,20:29) Well, dammit then Hey, are you allowed to say "dammit" . . . . ? It might offend some people, ya know . . . . . -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,20:55    Boring day at work, guys? -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Chris Hyland Posts: 705 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,21:00    Quote I've always more or less condensed this down into: (1) what did the designer do, specifically? (2) what mechanisms did the designer use to do whatever the heck it is you think it did? (3) where can we see the designer using these mechanisms today to do . . . well . . . anything? I'd say all my questions are an expansion of your question 1. A theory of intelligent design needs to say what the designer did. Especially if they refuse to name Him/Her/Them/It.

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,21:00    Quote Boring day at work, guys? are you that clueless, gawp?  did you miss the whole discussion about moderation changes? I pity your constant attempts at trolling. first a concern troll for demallien, now just a standard troll. *sigh* I do wonder why you bother to stick around. aren't you bored yet? -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Steviepinhead Posts: 532 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,21:02    Nah, GoPster, I'm not a miner or a concrete drilling specialist, so my work rarely involves boring. ...oh, and while I've got your scintillating attention, I've also been meaning to compliment your ava-tailor on the distinctive drapery of your left upper extremity. Tres chic, babe. Edit: misspelling corrected.

demallien Posts: 79 Joined: Jan. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,22:50    Quote (k.e @ Feb. 01 2007,19:47) Lenny is 100% correct. The only reason creationists today are even able to engage in a conversation with a sane person is the postmodernist idea that all ideas are equal and deserve equal time regardless of the provenance of the idea AND the permission to promote that false idea society gives to essentially Theofacist identity politics. Creationists are every single one to the last drop COMPLETELY AND UTERLY INSANE and are no different to the 9/11 bombers...they believe the biggest lie ever told. To draw you into their magical reality; in an attempt to get you to see the world as they do, they practice the most obsequious  form of false politeness and quisling behavior it makes me want to vomit. By being polite to them you further their cause because you remove opposition to their logical fallacy of argumentum ad infinitum. All they have to do is be polite, nothing else, to them victory will be no noisy cranky opposition. Anyone who thinks that being polite to a Theofacist will stop them, is living in fantasy land. If Lenny is correct, and talking to creationist is a complete waste of time, what are we doing here?  Is this forum really just a bunch of people that have nothing better to do in their lives than to congratulate each other for being intelligent enough to see through the less than challenging deceptions of the DI et al. ?   I've always assumed that the whole point of this forum is to communicate our ideas to those that don't share them.  I mean, we already know that evolution is real.  We don't need to go on some silly forum to reaffirm it, we have textbooks, journals and scientific papers for that. Although I do think Lenny is partially right - diehard creationists that come here aren't going to learn anything.  But there are others that come on by that aren't fixed in their ideas, though they may have been misguided.  Those people need to be reached out to.  It's not enough to say that you'll be polite to someone if they show that they are debating in good faith ( as it were).  There are also those that come by here to read, not to participate.  Most boards on the Internet have a lurker rate of over 50% (do we have lurker stats for this board SteveStory?), and we need those people to feel welcome too. As a result, I can not agree with Lenny's position.  Politeness needs to be maintained so that this forum can fulfil a role of educating those that have not received the necessary education on evolution at school.  I welcome Steve's promise of stronger moderation in the future (although that probably doesn't come as a surprise to most here ;-) )

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,22:56    Quote (demallien @ Feb. 01 2007,22:50) If Lenny is correct, and talking to creationist is a complete waste of time, what are we doing here? We are laughing at them. As my political hero, Abbie Hoffman, once said, "There are times when the only proper intellectual response is 'Fuck you' ." And any lurker who is stupid enough to become sympathetic to creationism because we are mean to them . . . well . . . good luck to them.  (shrug) -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,23:05    Quote (Chris Hyland @ Feb. 01 2007,21:00) I'd say all my questions are an expansion of your question 1. Yep.   But since fundies are lethally allergic to answering direct questions anyway, it doesn't matter HOW many we ask.   -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

demallien Posts: 79 Joined: Jan. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,23:06    That's a pretty mean-spirited kind of forum you're proposing there Lenny - a forum dedicated to ridiculing creationists... I would have thought that we didn't need to ridicule them - they do that for themselves.  But like it or not, a lot (the majority?) of people are influenced by the way you say something, not what you say.  That's why politicians don't throw around insults when they are being interviewed on TV...

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,23:14    Quote (demallien @ Feb. 01 2007,23:06) That's a pretty mean-spirited kind of forum you're proposing there Lenny - a forum dedicated to ridiculing creationists... I would have thought that we didn't need to ridicule them - they do that for themselves.  But like it or not, a lot (the majority?) of people are influenced by the way you say something, not what you say.  That's why politicians don't throw around insults when they are being interviewed on TV... I ridicule them because they are . . . well . . . ridicule-ous.  (shrug) If you want to have serious scientific debates with them . . . well . . . good luck with that. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2007,23:51    Quote (demallien @ Feb. 02 2007,07:06) That's a pretty mean-spirited kind of forum you're proposing there Lenny - a forum dedicated to ridiculing creationists... I would have thought that we didn't need to ridicule them - they do that for themselves.  But like it or not, a lot (the majority?) of people are influenced by the way you say something, not what you say.  That's why politicians don't throw around insults when they are being interviewed on TV... Strangely demallien that is the very reason the Theofacists have been able to succeed in creating their constructed social reality .....by use of a massive propaganda machine. Luckily for your country and the rest of the 'free world' some VERY BRAVE PARENTS in DOVER took up the challenge the politicians were too scared take up themselves. Its methods are no different to the political commissars of the old Soviet Union. Party hacks use a form of peer pressure that questions your allegiance to God and country and thus your rights as a citizen. The airwaves and streets are full of people praising the dear leader and woe is the person who questions it. You may think there is a difference and there is, in Russia they had to send huge numbers of the population to gulags to achieve it. In the US the mass media and the fear of being rejected achieve the same thing. The Politicians sucked up to them for votes (and will continue sucking up to them). In fact the situation is so ludicrous a politician who claims to be an atheist has as much chance of getting voted into office in Tehran as the US. <Sarcasm on>Just to show how crazy that is....a Catholic got voted in as US President once.  Do they even worship the same mammon as GWB? <Sarcasm off> -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

demallien Posts: 79 Joined: Jan. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,00:04    Quote (k.e @ Feb. 01 2007,23:51) Luckily for your country and the rest of the 'free world' some VERY BRAVE PARENTS in DOVER took up the challenge the politicians were too scared take up themselves. I doubt very much that my country of birth, or my country of residence care much at all about the result of Dover, k.e.  This is strictly a US problem (for the time being at least)

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,00:52    uh, you might want to check up on the latest efforts by the "truth in science" gang in the UK. this ain't just a US problem any more. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,01:06    Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 02 2007,00:52) uh, you might want to check up on the latest efforts by the "truth in science" gang in the UK. this ain't just a US problem any more. The UK is different. We have had schools teach religion for centuries. Yet very few students believe the bible is a "scientific" reference. To put it a diferent way. Untill very recently (within my lifetime) most UK schools taught Christianity as a fact (taught in RE classes BTW, not as science). Yet in the UK we have far fewer people (as a %) that believe in biblical literalism than the USA has.

Fractatious Posts: 103 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,01:16    Quote (demallien @ Feb. 02 2007,17:04) Quote (k.e @ Feb. 01 2007,23:51) Luckily for your country and the rest of the 'free world' some VERY BRAVE PARENTS in DOVER took up the challenge the politicians were too scared take up themselves. I doubt very much that my country of birth, or my country of residence care much at all about the result of Dover, k.e.  This is strictly a US problem (for the time being at least) It was also a New Zealand issue. As a leader in the field of biology education - we took great interest in the Dover Case. It set down boundaries between science and religion. If memory serves me right, Australia took an interest in it relating to law. Here

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,01:45    stephen- hmm, didn't you catch all the flak about the "Truth in Science" gang? Blair wanted to make a proposal to teach intelligent design? there were several threads about it, IIRC, fairly recently. would you like me to track them down for you? I haven't seen anything in a few weeks now, but I assume the Truth in Science guys are still active over there (btw, it does look like representatives of the DI have provided materials to them, if not direct funding). However, you are right that because of the history of education in the UK, it is very likely that there will be far more resistance to the spread of this claptrap than here in the US. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

demallien Posts: 79 Joined: Jan. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,02:00    Quote It was also a New Zealand issue. As a leader in the field of biology education - we took great interest in the Dover Case. It set down boundaries between science and religion. If memory serves me right, Australia took an interest in it relating to law. Here Are you trying to tell us that New Zealand is at moderate risk of adopting ID in the school classroom in the near future?!?! I can't see any other way that Dover would be of interest to a country.  But maybe I'm missing something.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,02:34    Quote I doubt very much that my country of birth, or my country of residence care much at all about the result of Dover, k.e. That is certainly true for (y)our country of residence.   Quote However, you are right that because of the history of education in the UK, virtual non-existance of creationist culture comparable to the US*, it is very likely that there will be far more resistance to the spread of this claptrap than here in the US. *correction added

Fractatious Posts: 103 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,03:08    Quote (demallien @ Feb. 02 2007,19:00) Quote It was also a New Zealand issue. As a leader in the field of biology education - we took great interest in the Dover Case. It set down boundaries between science and religion. If memory serves me right, Australia took an interest in it relating to law. Here Are you trying to tell us that New Zealand is at moderate risk of adopting ID in the school classroom in the near future?!?! I can't see any other way that Dover would be of interest to a country.  But maybe I'm missing something. No, I am telling you that it is of interest. It is of interest because much like Roe vs. Wade, it has set down boundaries. Australia was very interested in it. Not because of Creationism but as I said before, the boundaries between science and religion.

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,03:14    The French have got it about right. Every time some pointless muppet touting his or her bronze age fairy story pops his or her head up and claims it deserves special protection in law, they get a slap. Not a cuddle and a lolly, a slap. They deserve nothing more. It is a rank failure of our education system that they think their fictions deserve special treatment over and above toehr people's fictions or lack thereof. Oh and Demallien, I disagree with Lenny that just laughing at the creationists is enough, or even the valid purpose of any reasonable debate forum. I think arguing with them is very very valid and very very useful. Education is after all an ongoing thing. BUT, where Lenny and I do agree is that after some point, when a creationist has demonstrated themselves conclusively to be a dishonest and uneducable moron (and some do do this) that they don't get their arses kissed but kicked. And kicked good and hard. You also seem to think the same thing by the way, as your conduct on the civility thread proves beyond all doubt, I imagine we only differ about where that tipping point occurs. Louis -------------- Bye.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,03:21    Quote I imagine we only differ about where that tipping point occurs. Exactly. I try never to write anything that I wouldn't let my mother read.

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,03:24    Quote Exactly. I try never to write anything that I wouldn't let my mother read. Ah but I'm not as tolerant and wonderful a human being as you are Alan. And my mother is a robust and intelligent woman who is occasionally capable of seeing past the odd use of "fuck". I assume your mother is too. I take a slightly different tack. I try never to write anything I cannot defend to the hilt, or immediately apologise for! #### their eyes and the devil take the hindmost. Hark for'ard! Louis -------------- Bye.

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,03:30    Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 02 2007,01:45) stephen- hmm, didn't you catch all the flak about the "Truth in Science" gang? Blair wanted to make a proposal to teach intelligent design? there were several threads about it, IIRC, fairly recently. would you like me to track them down for you? I haven't seen anything in a few weeks now, but I assume the Truth in Science guys are still active over there (btw, it does look like representatives of the DI have provided materials to them, if not direct funding). However, you are right that because of the history of education in the UK, it is very likely that there will be far more resistance to the spread of this claptrap than here in the US. Not really any need Ichy. I was a tad concerned about a year ago when I thought that religious apologetics might get taught in science lessons. I do not see that as a danger now. I couldn't care less if ID was taught in schools providing it was in religious lessons rather than science. IMO ID is a bit of a joke. Not particularly from our efforts but rather through their own. They do tend to shoot themselves. Dover was great. Plenty of evidence about just how "scientific" ID is. UD also performs admirably for evidence against ID as science. DeTard is probably our biggest supporter, though he seems not to know it. Take a good long look at ID's protagonists. They provide about the best evidence possible that ID is not science.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2007,03:42    Quote I assume your mother is too. Well, she's 86 and I'm still scared of her :D Quote Ah but I'm not as tolerant and wonderful a human being as you are Alan. Not true, even if you are being ironic, my irritation manifests as polite sarcasm; I envy people who can stamp their foot in anger, I'm sure they have lower stress levels.

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