RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (622) < ... 550 551 552 553 554 [555] 556 557 558 559 560 ... >   
  Topic: A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin, As big as the poop that does not look< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2016,18:50   

I had enough bullshit for one day.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2016,18:59   

Let's take yet another angle to see if we can show you the error you're making.
Is the story the marks on the page?  The  specific marks on a specific page or set of pages?  Or is the story a perfectly identifiable thing that requires, at least for the purpose of communicating it, some one or another of a variety of physical media?
Is the song the score?  Is it the performance?  Or are those merely the presentation mechanisms for the thing?
In an analagous fashion, a body may be required for the display of, the presentation of, intelligence, but it is no part of intelligence in its own right.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2016,18:59   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 07 2016,19:50)
I had enough bullshit for one day.

Then stop dishing it out.

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2016,19:59   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 07 2016,16:50)
I had enough bullshit for one day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....t2mFlJM

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2016,20:27   

Science teachers need to know about this relatively new area of nanotechnology research, which relates to how RNA's and other biological molecules work:

molecular actuators
Quote
Behavior from a system or device qualifies as intelligent by meeting all four circuit requirements that are required for this ability, which are: [1] A body to control, either real or virtual, with motor muscle(s) including molecular actuators, motor proteins, speakers (linear actuators), write to a screen (arm actuators), motorized wheels (rotary actuators). [2] Random Access Memory (RAM) addressed by its sensory sensors where each motor action and its associated confidence value are stored as separate data elements. [3] Confidence (central hedonic) system that increments the confidence level of successful motor actions and decrements the confidence value of actions that fail. [4] Ability to guess a new memory action when associated confidence level sufficiently decreases. For flagella powered cells a random guess response (to a new heading) is designed into the motor system by the action of reversing motor direction causing it to “tumble”.


--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2016,21:01   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 07 2016,20:27)
Science teachers need to know about this relatively new area of nanotechnology research, which relates to how RNA's and other biological molecules work:

molecular actuators
 
Quote
Behavior from a system or device qualifies as intelligent by meeting all four circuit requirements that are required for this ability, which are: [1] A body to control, either real or virtual, with motor muscle(s) including molecular actuators, motor proteins, speakers (linear actuators), write to a screen (arm actuators), motorized wheels (rotary actuators). [2] Random Access Memory (RAM) addressed by its sensory sensors where each motor action and its associated confidence value are stored as separate data elements. [3] Confidence (central hedonic) system that increments the confidence level of successful motor actions and decrements the confidence value of actions that fail. [4] Ability to guess a new memory action when associated confidence level sufficiently decreases. For flagella powered cells a random guess response (to a new heading) is designed into the motor system by the action of reversing motor direction causing it to “tumble”.

http://tandcconsulting.com.au/wp-cont....ig1.jpg

Your paragraph there is still BS.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2016,05:52   

Gee N.Wells, your cronies are relatively well hated by those who are changing the future:
www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/pz-myers-the-kurzweil-delusion#post-753966

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2016,06:08   

And speaking of changing the future, welcome to new age! With the article that is in the opening post saying "Mr. Goel boasts that she answers only if she has a confidence rate of at least 97%" it sounds like I wrote it:
www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/imagine-discovering-that-your-teaching-assistant-really-is-a-robot



--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2016,07:06   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 08 2016,05:52)
Gee N.Wells, your cronies are relatively well hated by those who are changing the future:
www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/pz-myers-the-kurzweil-delusion#post-753966

Gee Gary, you link to a thread where a grand total so far of two people pour vitriol on PZ*, but an approximately equal number of people support him and/or critique Kurzweil**.  This doesn't support your assertion, but what else is new in that?
*Guilio Prisco, Amine; Additional mild criticism of PZ:  You, Extropia
**Lady Floressa, Professor Falken: Additional mild comments: Noam

Not that I care, and not that the opinions of a few not entirely clued-in people are relevant to when and how scientists actually move scientific knowledge forward.

However, this is not relevant to your paragraph being BS.  It was BS last night and it is still BS this morning.  It shows no signs of ever becoming useful science.

------
Also, "relatively well hated"?  How about writing in standard English so that your audience doesn't have to keep guessing at what you are trying to communicate?

And no, that second post does NOT sound like you wrote it.  First, it is readable and comprehensible, and secondly it appears to use "confidence" unproblematically.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2016,07:42   

Quote (N.Wells @ May 08 2016,08:06)
 
Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 08 2016,05:52)
Gee N.Wells, your cronies are relatively well hated by those who are changing the future:
www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/pz-myers-the-kurzweil-delusion#post-753966

...

Not that I care, and not that the opinions of a few not entirely clued-in people are relevant to when and how scientists actually move scientific knowledge forward.

However, this is not relevant to your paragraph being BS.  It was BS last night and it is still BS this morning.  It shows no signs of ever becoming useful science.

------
Also, "relatively well hated"?  How about writing in standard English so that your audience doesn't have to keep guessing at what you are trying to communicate?

To pile on -- "cronies"?  You have no evidence or justification for that assertion.  Beyond which, its truth or falsity is simply irrelevant.
For someone who whines so pathetically about he, specifically, is being mistreated because of his education, affiliations, or [fantasized] insights, you sure are fond of [absurd] attempts at ad hominem attacks.

Nothing in the thread you link to entails your "theory" and is only entailed by your "theory" insofar as false implies everything, both true and false.

Just for a change, try answering some questions.  Try supporting your claims by doing something other than simply linking back to them.  Try going a month without posting entirely irrelevant 'bright shiny sciencey things' you've stumbled across on the web.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2016,08:14   

Quote (NoName @ May 05 2016,18:54)
Quote (ChemiCat @ May 05 2016,10:26)
Quote

Quote
I learned that in a forum like this one it is vital to make sure to provide phrases that have training wheels on them.


Then put your training wheels on these questions;

1) How do molecules learn?
2) How does this differ for polymers like RNA/DNA?
3) Why can't unimolecular systems be intelligent?
4) How do energy gradients affect this learning?
5) Do oxygen levels affect the outcome?
6) Do molecules learn to overcome these different conditions?

These questions are probably rhetorical as Gaulin has no chance of understanding them or giving a scientific answer.

Here's a start at the list of questions you've been fleeing for years, Gary.
Not my questions, but very good ones.  Ones that point up the utter fatuity of your notions.

Just a little reminder.  These have either been entirely unaddressed or you've made a complete botch of addressing by getting the answer entirely wrong.
Molecules do not learn except by tortured, and technically incorrect, analogy.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2016,08:22   

Quote (NoName @ May 06 2016,07:28)
Quote (N.Wells @ Dec. 31 2014,09:31)
You've got a whole lot of transparent and ineffective distraction going on, Gary.
As NoName said earlier,
     
Quote
Stop deflecting, distracting, and denying.  Man up and deal with the facts on the ground:

A phenomenon is not properly called 'emergent' when it arises from a set of phenomena to which it is properly called 'self-similar'.  And vice versa.
Not all acts of 'intelligence' are motor acts, yet your "theory" insists otherwise.  This flies in the face of your assertion that your, or any competing, "theory" must "explain how ANY intelligence system works."
Deal with the fact that you smuggle 'intelligence' into your module with the undefined and uncharacterized 'guess' function.
Deal with the fact that 'guess' does not equal 'plan'.  Your "theory" is useless as a 'theory of intelligence' if it cannot deal with plans and planning.
Deal with the fact that many acts of intelligence involve imagination, and your "theory" does not deal with imagination at all.
Deal with the fact that some of the most crucial constraints on life are thermodynamic and that your "theory" simply ignores any and all thermodynamic issues.
Etc.

     
Quote
What is the ‘something’ that must be controlled when an intelligence creates a theory?  a musical composition?  a plan?  a story plot line?
Note that none of these require muscle activity of any sort.

What are the senses that address what memory/memories when an intelligence creates a theory?  a musical composition?  a plan?  a story plot line?
Note that each of these has been performed by individuals who lack the 'obvious' sensory modalities one would expect for the product.
Sub-question — what does it mean for memory to be sensory-addressed?  The naive view that has the senses directly writing to memory or directly “indicating” what memory to use and what to store there has been debunked many many years ago.  So what are you talking about here?

What is the measure of confidence to gauge failure and success when an intelligence creates a theory?  a musical composition?  a plan?  a story plot line?
Sub-question — what senses address what memory/memories in the creation, storage, and retrieval of the ‘confidence’ factor?  Is it analog or digital?  What process(es) modify it, at what points, and what difference does it make?

What is the ‘ABILITY TO TAKE A GUESS’?  How is it manifested and how is it utilized when  an intelligence creates a theory?  a musical composition?  a plan?  a story plot line?

What is a guess?  How does ‘guess’ relate to ‘plan’ and to ‘imagination?  Are there factors that feed into/influence the guess?  Is a guess random?  If not, what regularity does it exhibit?  Is it algorithmic?  What algorithm?  Or how is the specific algorithm used chosen?
What justifies embedding ‘guess’ into the “flow” that defines “intelligence” when the ability to guess is generally taken to be an act of intelligence?  How is it we only find guessing happening when we find ‘molecular intelligence’ in your sense, i.e., biology?
(You do realize that a random number generator in a computer program does not ‘guess’?)


And questions from me:
     
Quote
Why is your rubbish not made obsolete by Edgar Postrado's rubbish?

     
Quote

It is also unreasonable to expect out of place detail that would limit the theory to only one level of intelligence (brains) of a model that has to work for any behavior, intelligent or not.


Since you see intelligence darn near everywhere at all levels, in your opinion what behavior would qualify as not intelligent, and why?

...


Here's another set of good questions.  You've been running from these for no little while -- this aggregation was posted at the end of 2014.  It's been posted a few times since then, and ignored each time.

There's really nothing new in the above, there's nothing new in your ongoing refusal to address the issues.

What's new is your pretense that you have answered the valid and proper questions raised against your notions, the pretense that your interlocutors are being insincere and dishonest in their claims that you have resolutely refused to address these issues.

Worse than pathetic, not least because it is so transparent.  So easily countered.

And here's the batch that's coming up on 18 months old.

What's the matter Gary?  Can't guess the answers?
Or won't guess them, because they blow your silly little fantasy 'model' out of the water?

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2016,08:42   

Quote (N.Wells @ May 08 2016,13:06)
Gee Gary, you link to a thread where a grand total so far of two people pour vitriol on PZ*, but an approximately equal number of people support him and/or critique Kurzweil**.  This doesn't support your assertion, but what else is new in that?

His threshold for excitement is lower than most peoples'.

For Gary emailing his 'theory' to some unsuspecting victim and receiving an automated reply is proof that the recipient has read, understood, endorsed and is currently teaching his theory at a state-wide level.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2016,09:15   

Quote (Woodbine @ May 08 2016,08:42)
Quote (N.Wells @ May 08 2016,13:06)
Gee Gary, you link to a thread where a grand total so far of two people pour vitriol on PZ*, but an approximately equal number of people support him and/or critique Kurzweil**.  This doesn't support your assertion, but what else is new in that?

His threshold for excitement is lower than most peoples'.

For Gary emailing his 'theory' to some unsuspecting victim and receiving an automated reply is proof that the recipient has read, understood, endorsed and is currently teaching his theory at a state-wide level.

Obama spoke at Howard University yesterday http://www.inc.com/zoe-hen....16.html
and according to reports his address included some "remarks on confidence and collective memory".  Don't tell Gary - he'll take it as a presidential endorsement of his not-a-theory, with presentation at a university to boot.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2016,17:28   

It was close enough to sound like I said it but I need to add that the correct phrase to use is "confidence level" not "confidence rate". I would not have made that mistake. The proper terminology is in the video I linked to in the thread.
Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 08 2016,06:08)
And speaking of changing the future, welcome to new age! With the article that is in the opening post saying "Mr. Goel boasts that she answers only if she has a confidence rate of at least 97%" it sounds like I wrote it:
www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/imagine-discovering-that-your-teaching-assistant-really-is-a-robot



--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2016,17:45   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 08 2016,18:28)
It was close enough to sound like I said it but I need to add that the correct phrase to use is "confidence level" not "confidence rate". I would not have made that mistake. The proper terminology is in the video I linked to in the thread.
Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 08 2016,06:08)
And speaking of changing the future, welcome to new age! With the article that is in the opening post saying "Mr. Goel boasts that she answers only if she has a confidence rate of at least 97%" it sounds like I wrote it:
www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/imagine-discovering-that-your-teaching-assistant-really-is-a-robot


Circular.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: May 09 2016,06:38   

Specific changes to non-coding RNA may be part of what makes us human
phys.org/news/2016-05-specific-non-coding-rna-human.html

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 09 2016,06:56   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 09 2016,07:38)
Specific changes to non-coding RNA may be part of what makes us human
phys.org/news/2016-05-specific-non-coding-rna-human.html

'Specific changes to non-coding RNA' are not the result of a process of 'learning'.
Your "theory" is irrelevant to this, as it is to the rest of science.

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 09 2016,10:45   

Quote
Specific changes to non-coding RNA may be part of what makes us human
phys.org/news/2016-05-specific-non-coding-rna-human.html


None of which has any relevance to your not-a-theory. You do not discuss coding, transcription or anything resembling them. All you look at is "RNA" and scramble to make it fit into your crap. It doesn't.

Now back to those questions you haven't answered...

Thanks for repeating them in case Gaulin missed them first time, NoName.

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 09 2016,10:47   

Quote
I had enough bullshit for one day.


Then stop reading your not-a-theory and the problem will be cured.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 09 2016,13:07   

Quote (N.Wells @ May 07 2016,14:52)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 07 2016,14:14)
And FYI, the Unimolecular Intelligence section currently reads:
   
Quote
Unimolecular Intelligence

Clues to the origin of intelligent living things are found in rudimentary molecular systems such as self-replicating RNA. Since these are single macromolecules that can self-learn they are more precisely examples of “Unimolecular Intelligence”, as opposed to “Molecular Intelligence”, which may contain millions of molecules all working together as one.

REQUIREMENT #1 of 4 - SOMETHING TO CONTROL

The catalytic ability (chemically reacts with other molecules without itself changing to a new molecular species) of ribonucleotide (A,G,C,U) bases combine to form useful molecular machinery. Where these bases are properly combined into strands they become a mobile molecule that can control/catalyze other molecules in their environment and each other, including using each other as a template to induce each others replication. Unlike RNA that exists inside a protective cell membrane (as our cells have) these RNA's are more directly influenced by the planetary environment, which they would have once have been free to control. Modern examples include viruses that can control the internal environment of their host, and may now have protective shells with sensors on the outside for detecting other suitable host cells to enter and control. In some cases after invading a host cell other sensors detect when conditions are right to simultaneously reproduce, thereby overwhelming the immune system of their hosts, which could otherwise detect then destroy them.

REQUIREMENT #2 of 4 – SENSORY ADDRESSED MEMORY

The ribonucleotide sequences are a memory system that also acts as its body. On it are molecular sites, which can interact with nearby molecules to produce repeatable movements/actions. Its shape can include hairpin bends that are sensitive to the chemical environment, which in turn changes its action responses nearby molecules and to each other. Their combined activity also changes their molecular environment, much the same way as living things have over time changed the atmosphere and chemistry of our planet.

REQUIREMENT #3 of 4 - CONFIDENCE TO GAUGE FAILURE AND SUCCESS

Molecular species that can successfully coexist with others in the population and the environmental changes that they caused are successful responses that remain in the population. Molecular species that fail are soon replaced by another more successful (best guess) response. The overall process must result in collective actions/reactions that efficiently use and recycle the resources available to multiple molecular species or else there is an unsustainable chemical reaction, which ends when the reactants have consumed each other, resulting in an environmental crash.

REQUIREMENT #4 of 4 - ABILITY TO TAKE A GUESS

For a rapidly replicating molecule RNA editing1 type mechanisms can become a significant source of guesses. Also, molecular affinity will favor assimilation of complimentary ribonucleotides but where some are in limited abundance another ribonucleotide may replace what was previously used. The change may work equally well, or better, for their descendants.

theoryofid.blogspot.com/
sites.google.com/site/theoryofid/home/TheoryOfIntelligentDesign.pdf

Quote
I had enough bullshit for one day.


https://lukeaustindaugherty.files.wordpress.com/2014....eme.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x....61d.jpg

http://tinderwetstudios.com/blog....hit.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x....882.jpg

https://cleanupjamaicaqueens.files.wordpress.com/2013....it2.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x....1fc.jpg

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 09 2016,18:38   

Quote
Then you should have no problem at all showing me an intelligent entity that has no body and is made of absolutely nothing.


Then:

Quote
The constant moving of the goalposts and rewording of what I said is one reason why I am wasting my time arguing with these people.


Your first statement is a major shift in goalposts, something you do very often.  The second statement is, therefore, pure projection on your part.

Gadzooks, what a hoot!!!!

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: May 09 2016,21:38   

I will continue to post relevant information. But I'm purposely not answering these assholes.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 09 2016,22:01   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 09 2016,20:38)
I will continue to post relevant information.

Gary, you can't continue something you've never started.

 
Quote
But I'm purposely not answering these assholes.

Assholes or no, you've never answered questions anyone has posed before, as you really can't do so intelligently. It would be surprising if you were to start now.

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 10 2016,01:50   

Quote
I will continue to post relevant information. But I'm purposely not answering these assholes.


At last! A tacit admission that he has no answers! This is a textbook classic diversion tactic, if you have no answers call your interrogators 'assholes' and refuse to engage with them.

Gaulin you are as rubbish at this logic thing as you are at science.

Improve your vegetable crop, go and spread your well-rotted bullshit on them.

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 10 2016,10:26   

Quote
But I'm purposely not answering these assholes.


-Snicker, snicker-

You just did.  Didn't you notice?

-Snicker, snicker-

Whatta hoot!

:)  :)  :)

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 10 2016,11:40   

Quote (jeffox @ May 10 2016,11:26)
Quote
But I'm purposely not answering these assholes.


-Snicker, snicker-

You just did.  Didn't you notice?

-Snicker, snicker-

Whatta hoot!

:)  :)  :)

And he considers his response 'relevant information'.
Proof positive that while his language may look like English (superficially), it isn't English.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: May 10 2016,17:39   

The publishing deadline for the paper/theory that needs to include new information on the cognitive origin of the scientific method is the 16'th and it's already the 10'th. On top of that I am very busy at my day job, need to make a video showing how the new ID Lab works for someone in another forum who needs it badly, and possibly respond to new people who have been viewing my work. I seriously have much bigger and better things to do with my time than waste my time running in circles while dimwits throw insults at me.

I must now get back to work.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 10 2016,18:00   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 10 2016,17:39)
The publishing deadline for the paper/theory that needs to include new information on the cognitive origin of the scientific method is the 16'th and it's already the 10'th.

Did you have a few spare apostrophes in your pocket?

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 10 2016,18:11   

Quote
Did you have a few spare apostrophes in your pocket?

He's just happy to see us.

Quote (GaryGaulin @ May 10 2016,17:39)
The publishing deadline for the paper/theory that needs to include new information on the cognitive origin of the scientific method is the 16'th and it's already the 10'th. On top of that I am very busy at my day job, need to make a video showing how the new ID Lab works for someone in another forum who needs it badly, and possibly respond to new people who have been viewing my work. I seriously have much bigger and better things to do with my time than waste my time running in circles while dimwits throw insults at me.

I must now get back to work.

Unless and until you fix your many fundamental problems with what you have done, you will be wasting your time embellishing it or publicizing it.

  
  18634 replies since Oct. 31 2012,02:32 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (622) < ... 550 551 552 553 554 [555] 556 557 558 559 560 ... >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]